Okay now I know there has been a few threads on this but I am unable to find them so...right to the point.

I have been noticing a problem with the mass misuse of the "transgender" tag. Ive done my best to fix the misuse of the tag but users keep readding it to images over weeks times.

Ive been noticing this tag used on girly males where only a penis is seen, not breasts or anything else. Can we please either get rid of this tag or sort it somehow? The tag is barely used as it is, and it seems to be massively miss used on girly male images. I have also noticed users removing the tags "dickgirl" from images with a women with breasts and a penis and putting transgender.

Also removing the tag "herm" on images where there is a penis and pussy on the char and putting "transgender" once more, which is slowly messing up search results....This tag is causing more trouble then helping search results.

Can anything be done to fix this misuse of the tag? Is the tag even necessary due to how low its being used but reused on wrong images?

imo, the best option is to trash it.

Halite said:
imo, the best option is to trash it.

Agreed, as people keep putting it on images of "girly males" "herms" "dickgirls" or "Crossdressers" while they are removing vaild tags...I am getting tired of re fixing this on the same images every few weeks. The tag is currently massively misused, and seems very useless as its barely used to begin with (not counting when its massive misused that is.)

Well, the only time it's ever accurate is when an actual change of gender occurs in the image, animation, or comic page.

I suppose we could also alias it to "gender_transformation" or some such, but while that makes the bad tag more obvious, and the actual use of the tag more obvious, I doubt it stops the bad tagging.

Halite said:
Well, the only time it's ever accurate is when an actual change of gender occurs in the image, animation, or comic page.

I suppose we could also alias it to "gender_transformation" or some such, but while that makes the bad tag more obvious, and the actual use of the tag more obvious, I doubt it stops the bad tagging.

Perhaps we should just get transgender = invalid_tag
That would at least stop the readding of the same tag after its been fixed up by normal users. I mean I had to fix the tag on at least 4 images a ton of times now, and new users keep readding it and removing valid tags.

I have intersex on my blacklist (no offense, just not my cup of tea), and don't want to miss out on twinkish/girly males. Turning it into an invalid tag should help clear out the mess.

https://e621.net/forum/show/85621

Welcome to 21 days ago, Conker. And a whole host of other threads before that. Every time this subject comes up, it dies.

Halite said:
Well, the only time it's ever accurate is when an actual change of gender occurs in the image, animation, or comic page.

I suppose we could also alias it to "gender_transformation" or some such, but while that makes the bad tag more obvious, and the actual use of the tag more obvious, I doubt it stops the bad tagging.

This, plus alising the current transgender tag to invalid_tag, would probably be the best solution. Because that way all the misuse will go to invalid_tag, and that will end the majority of the mistagging cycle going on. But create a new gender_transformation tag for those which are actually featuring transformation, and manually add the valid images to that.

Because having a tag for when someone is visibly transforming from one gender to the other is useful, I'd hate to get rid of it entirely. But gender_transformation is much clearer, and less likely to be used for real life transgender definitions which I think has been most of the problem. So, if transgender leads to -> invalid_tag then that will handle all the invalid uses of the old tag which will just keep happening. And then have gender_transformation as a better tag for actual gender transformation.

furrypickle said:
This, plus alising the current transgender tag to invalid_tag, would probably be the best solution. Because that way all the misuse will go to invalid_tag, and that will end the majority of the mistagging cycle going on. But create a new gender_transformation tag for those which are actually featuring transformation, and manually add the valid images to that.

Because having a tag for when someone is visibly transforming from one gender to the other is useful, I'd hate to get rid of it entirely. But gender_transformation is much clearer, and less likely to be used for real life transgender definitions which I think has been most of the problem. So, if transgender leads to -> invalid_tag then that will handle all the invalid uses of the old tag which will just keep happening. And then have gender_transformation as a better tag for actual gender transformation.

We have mtf and ftm for visible gender transformations, and they implicate transgender. So if someone puts mtf or ftm mistakenly on an image to indicate a specific transgender sex, it will erroneously (due to the implication) put transgender on the image as well.

In discussions with folks, a lot are open to the idea of replacing intersex with transgender, and changing the transgender wiki to reflect this. It makes more sense in the traditional definition of the word for herm/cuntboy/dickgirl to implicate transgender than it does intersex, but that's just my opinion.

corgi_bread said:
In discussions with folks, a lot are open to the idea of replacing intersex with transgender, and changing the transgender wiki to reflect this. It makes more sense in the traditional definition of the word for herm/cuntboy/dickgirl to implicate transgender than it does intersex, but that's just my opinion.

I agree with this.

corgi_bread said:
In discussions with folks, a lot are open to the idea of replacing intersex with transgender, and changing the transgender wiki to reflect this. It makes more sense in the traditional definition of the word for herm/cuntboy/dickgirl to implicate transgender than it does intersex, but that's just my opinion.

A liberal application of Tag What You See would go a long ways here. In practice, "ftm", "mtf", and "transgender" will be used sparingly because you're not normally supposed to notice someone being transgender.

intersex and transgender are not the same, not the least. Look at intersex, how many of those are noticeably transgender? Like... none? None. Exactly zero on the first page are (visibly) transgender. And none are tagged as such. (post #326697 would be an example of a transgender character.)

Just because some people misuse the tag in no way means you just dump the tag. Far more people depend on the distinction between intersex and transgender (or other gender tags), and while I haven't seen any problems, we can fix the mistakes as we come across them.

ThenIThought said:
A liberal application of Tag What You See would go a long ways here. In practice, "ftm", "mtf", and "transgender" will be used sparingly because you're not normally supposed to notice someone being transgender.

Following tag what you see, this tag would never be used unless its a image of a sex change. Also that example image is a cuntboy.

Lastly, ive been fixing the same mistakes for over a month now, new users keep re-adding the tags to the same images. The tag breaks tag what you see and is never used correctly.

furrypickle said:
plus alising the current transgender tag to invalid_tag, would probably be the best solution. Because that way all the misuse will go to invalid_tag, and that will end the majority of the mistagging cycle going on.

Agreed.

Conker said:
Also that example image is a cuntboy.

Take a good look at the chest, and the "scar" tag. Ignoring the feminine hips, yes, it's also cuntboy, it's not as if they're mutually exclusive.

If the tag is a problem for you, then just don't use it. But removing the tag isn't a solution, certainly not for those of us that actually do use it.

corgi_bread said:
We have mtf and ftm for visible gender transformations, and they implicate transgender. So if someone puts mtf or ftm mistakenly on an image to indicate a specific transgender sex, it will erroneously (due to the implication) put transgender on the image as well.

In discussions with folks, a lot are open to the idea of replacing intersex with transgender, and changing the transgender wiki to reflect this. It makes more sense in the traditional definition of the word for herm/cuntboy/dickgirl to implicate transgender than it does intersex, but that's just my opinion.

That could work, and I really like the concept. But I have issues with 'transgender' being used as a tag term from a practical standpoint:

1, I don't see how aliasing with intersex would help limit the ongoing misuse of the transgender tag on girly males and crossdressing, etc. In fact, making transgender a more widely used tag might exacerbate the issue, making the current tag mess even bigger. And that's a major concern.

2, I have mild reservations about using terms like mtf, ftm, and transgender because they have real life meanings which aren't very TWYS and aren't the same as how we're using them here. I think that is at the root of some of the mistagging: people trying to use them based on their real life (and sometimes personally important) technical definitions instead of the version we have on the wiki. So the terms are a little problematic.

Both of these concerns are heavily related to real life LGBTQI etc politics which have muddied the term and have yet to settle on just one definition for it. As a relatively short explanation: there was a period of time where "transgender" was being used by some groups as a huge umbrella label for anything genderqueer all the way across the spectrum to intersex. That usage has slid out of favor in some circles nowadays in favor of something a little more specific, while adding in a plethora of other terms to try and cover everything else in addition to it.

This means that to some people the word transgender can mean 'everything-related-to-non-traditional-gender-themes' including mixed gender roles, using cross-gendered clothing, etc as well as intersex and mtf/ftm transsexuals. (That's probably why the tag keeps getting crossdressing and girly males in it despite what the wiki says it's for.)

But to other people transgender is the synonym of transsexual (the medical term for a specific type of intersex) and is used interchangeably with transgender and "trans" to refer to transsexuals. Transsexualism is probably the hardest to tag because most of the time it is invisible, the very definition of what you know instead of what you see.

And then there is a third definition for "transgender" coined by outsiders to group anyone who has had both sets of genitalia, either at the same time (hermaphrodite) or surgically changed from one to the other (post-op only transsexuals). But no one seems to like that definition except people who've never had either and don't know much about them. It's a bit hamfisted because it excludes a fair amount of both intersex and transsexuals without much of an explanation.

My point is I think the word is problematic because of its current real life issues attached, and we'd be better off picking a different word for it to use as a tag. It would be a constant uphill battle to keep it to only one definition when the real life word is going through such upheaval and change.

ThenIThought said:
Take a good look at the chest, and the "scar" tag. Ignoring the feminine hips, yes, it's also cuntboy, it's not as if they're mutually exclusive.

If the tag is a problem for you, then just don't use it. But removing the tag isn't a solution, certainly not for those of us that actually do use it.

Just because a char has a scar and a flat chest does not make it a female or once was a female. By tag what you see its a cuntboy.

Also my problem is the tag being massively misused, I dont use the tag but when I want to search up "male girly" or "crossdressing" or "dickgirl" or even "herm" I dont get to see images with that, because some idiot has removed the tags and added "transgender" so now the search is messed up, and I cant even find what I was looking for to begin with. Also I have fixed this on images many times, but it keeps getting readded by other users.

Even if you do use "Transgender" tag, you probaly dont want to see normal girly males, crossdressers, herms...ect when looking up the tag, as that has nothing to do with the tag. The tag breaks "tag what you see" the only point it wouldnt is if there is a image of a sex change. Other then that, it doesnt follow tag what you see.

ThenIThought said:
A liberal application of Tag What You See would go a long ways here. In practice, "ftm", "mtf", and "transgender" will be used sparingly because you're not normally supposed to notice someone being transgender.

mtf and ftm are only to be used on images showing a physical transformation occurring; I can only assume that the decision to have them implicate transgender was that it's indicating that the character is transitioning in gender (through a transformation). I do not necessarily agree with either tag, or the implication of transgender.

intersex and transgender are not the same, not the least. Look at intersex, how many of those are noticeably transgender? Like... none? None. Exactly zero on the first page are (visibly) transgender. And none are tagged as such. (post #326697 would be an example of a transgender character.)

People who are transitioning from one gender to another are called transgender IRL, not intersex. Intersex, in fact, is used to denote people who would likely be accurately tagged as transgender on E6.

Part of the problem we have with people misapplying tags to images is that we're expecting them to apply tags to images that aren't correct by IRL standards and definitions. Herm/dickgirl/cuntboy should implicate transgender, not intersex. Intersex should, in my opinion, be aliased to transgender and have its wiki changed.

Just because some people misuse the tag in no way means you just dump the tag. Far more people depend on the distinction between intersex and transgender (or other gender tags), and while I haven't seen any problems, we can fix the mistakes as we come across them.

Considering that transgender is only supposed to be on images that are also tagged with mtf/ftm, I'm going to call shenanigans on your claim that 'far more people depend on the distinction between intersex and transgender'.

furrypickle said:
That could work, and I really like the concept. But I have issues with 'transgender' being used as a tag term from a practical standpoint:

1, I don't see how aliasing with intersex would help limit the ongoing misuse of the transgender tag on girly males and crossdressing, etc. In fact, making transgender a more widely used tag might exacerbate the issue, making the current tag mess even bigger. And that's a major concern.

I probably didn't word it properly before. My suggestion is that transgender take the place of intersex; intersex would be aliased to transgender and would functionally cease to exist. As layed out above, transgender by definition is what we're using intersex for, and it's confusing for users who are not 'in the know' when they go to tag an image.

2, I have mild reservations about using terms like mtf, ftm, and transgender because they have real life meanings which aren't very TWYS and aren't the same as how we're using them here. I think that is at the root of some of the mistagging: people trying to use them based on their real life (and sometimes personally important) technical definitions instead of the version we have on the wiki. So the terms are a little problematic.

I agree with you 143%, they're clunky and confusing tags, especially if a user isn't reading the wiki on the tag (and most people don't). I personally think we should alias mtf and ftm to a tag like gender_transformation, because by the very definition of TWYS, MTF and FTM as considered by their everyday RL definitions are not TWYS friendly.

My point is I think the word is problematic because of its current real life issues attached, and we'd be better off picking a different word for it to use as a tag. It would be a constant uphill battle to keep it to only one definition when the real life word is going through such upheaval and change.

Wikipedia defines transgender as:

Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex). Transgender is independent of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender is changing but nevertheless includes:
"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."
"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."
"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

Merriam-Webster defines it as:

of or relating to people who have a sexual identity that is not clearly male or clearly female

So I think that transgender, by the professionally-accepted definition of the word, is apt and proper for usage in regards to herm/dickgirl/cuntboy images.

Here's my proposal:

1) Remove the mtf/ftm -> transgender implication.
2) Alias mtf/ftm to a new umbrella tag, such as gender_transformation, because mtf and ftm are confusing for users who aren't up on what those tags are properly used for, and gender_transformation is to the point, straightforward, and easily understandable; edit the wiki for both tags to reflect this, and create a proper wiki for gender_transformation.
3) Alias intersex to transgender, as transgender is the more accurate and appropriate tag, and edit the wiki's for transgender and intersex to reflect the change. I could recommend aliasing intersex to ambiguous_gender instead, as that's essentially what intersex means, but that would require a LOT of wetwork to fix images that would now be improperly tagged. Intersex isn't currently being widely used to denote ambiguous characters, so I think it's safe aliasing it to transgender.

corgi_bread said:
words

Transgender, as you quoted from wikipedia, is about state of mind. It is about gender, not (only) sex. We're generally not tagging state of minds. Despite having tag ambiguous_gender we're tagging sex, and only care about rest when character sex is not visible on picture. I deeply oppose idea of replacing intersex tag with transgender.

Wikipedia also says about intersex:

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, and/or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female.

It suits current usage of tag perfectly. Replacing it with transgender is not "more accurate". It is just wrong.

I could recommend aliasing intersex to ambiguous_gender instead, as that's essentially what intersex means

No, this is not what intersex means. Intersex is a character which has visible sex characteristics that show that xe is neither male or female. (Like dick and pussy) Ambiguous_gender is when you can't determine what sex character have, and you can't tell by other factors what gender xe suppose to have. (Like character that is fully clothed in clothes that don't suggest whether xe's male or female.)

----

IMO transgender tag is like stated_homosexuality tag, and should be treated in similar way. Or just trash it.

Also many cases of what you suggest, especially those containing transformations, should probably refer not to transgender, but to crossgender tag. Sex change goes under this tag, not transgender.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Transgender, as you quoted from wikipedia, is about state of mind.
----

IMO transgender tag is like stated_homosexuality tag, and should be treated in similar way. Or just trash it.

Just a small note here, if transgender is a mindset....then we shouldnt have the tag to begin with as we go with tag what you see, not what you know.

As for the odd tag of stated_homosexuality in the images I saw there was crystal clear of gay actions, from buttsex, to flaming rainbows, now I dont agree we should have the tag to begin with but at least you are able to SEE IT, unlike the transgender tag.

I honestly think since this tag is a "state of mind" and there is nothing to "see" using "tag what you see" this tag should be trashed as its useless currently.

Doth the wikipedia decree!

I'm down with the gender_transformation idea.

ftm, mtf, transgender, (maybe) crossgender -implies> gender_transformation

Right?

ThenIThought said:
I'm down with the gender_transformation idea.

ftm, mtf, transgender, (maybe) crossgender -implies> gender_transformation

Right?

But it would only be used in images with a transformation going on.....the problem the current tag is being used on anything but that which is screwing up a lot of tags and search results.

Conker said:
But it would only be used in images with a transformation going on...

That should already be covered by the crossgender tag.

As far as I can tell, transgender is being misused because it doesn't actually have a legitimate use.

DrHorse said:
That should already be covered by the crossgender tag.

As far as I can tell, transgender is being misused because it doesn't actually have a legitimate use.

Well I didnt want a new tag to be misused again -.- replacing a bad tag with another bad tag wont fix things. But yeah, I dont think we need this tag as it has no real use

If we already have the ftm and mtf tags, then yeah, there's no real reason for transgender.

Additionally, transgender is a psychological state, not a physical one. In the terms of TWYS, it doesn't really have a place here.

/2 cents.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
If we already have the ftm and mtf tags, then yeah, there's no real reason for transgender.

Additionally, transgender is a psychological state, not a physical one. In the terms of TWYS, it doesn't really have a place here.

/2 cents.

So can you resign transgender to invalid_tag

After speaking with the senior management and admin staff, this is what we propose:

alias transgender to invalid_tag
imply ftm to gender_transformation
imply mtf to gender_transformation

I will be opening another thread to talk about intersex and get people's opinions on it. (meaning don't discuss it yet, in this thread :P )

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
After speaking with the senior management and admin staff, this is what we propose:

alias transgender to invalid_tag
imply ftm to gender_transformation
imply mtf to gender_transformation

I will be opening another thread to talk about intersex and get people's opinions on it. (meaning don't discuss it yet, in this thread :P )

Fine by me. It's about time we finally did something with this tag.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
Additionally, transgender is a psychological state, not a physical one. In the terms of TWYS, it doesn't really have a place here.

/2 cents.

I think that there is always a way to represent psychological states in a way that could be considered TWYS. For example by dialog in comic. Still I think that it would be better to alias it since I don't remember seeing any case where it would be needed, and it's really misused.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
After speaking with the senior management and admin staff, this is what we propose:

alias transgender to invalid_tag
imply ftm to gender_transformation
imply mtf to gender_transformation

I will be opening another thread to talk about intersex and get people's opinions on it. (meaning don't discuss it yet, in this thread :P )

Agreed but I feel the transformation tag might be abused

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
After speaking with the senior management and admin staff, this is what we propose:

alias transgender to invalid_tag
imply ftm to gender_transformation
imply mtf to gender_transformation

I will be opening another thread to talk about intersex and get people's opinions on it. (meaning don't discuss it yet, in this thread :P )

Sounds excellent.

As soon as the website will allow me to... I will put this in.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
As soon as the website will allow me to... I will put this in.

I only see 1 problem with this, if ftm and mtf are implied to gender_Transformation, it will appear on all the images like girly males, herms, dickgirls ect just like the transgender tag did, even worse the tag gender_transformation will be used on images where no transformation is taking place....I honestly think all 4 tags need to be nuked and aliased to invalid_tag

gender_transformation should probably imply crossgender.

Conker said:
I only see 1 problem with this, if ftm and mtf are implied to gender_Transformation, it will appear on all the images like girly males, herms, dickgirls ect just like the transgender tag did...

No it won't. The transgender tag is being aliased to invalid_tag. So any mistagged images will get retagged correctly. Those mistags will not get passed on to the new tag.

Conker said: ..even worse the tag gender_transformation will be used on images where no transformation is taking place....

The reason it got misused in the first place was because of conflicting ideas on what the tag meant between real life uses (like the wiki suggested) or transformation-only uses (like the implications suggested). Gender_transformation does not have that ambiguity, has no real life alternate uses, and is pretty clear what it's for. So it's far less problematic and less prone to be misunderstood or mistagged in the first place. Someone manually adding a tag which does not fit the picture is a problem which sometimes occurs for every tag on the site though. So, while this change would reduce the problem, nothing can prevent mistags entirely.

furrypickle said:
No it won't. The transgender tag is being aliased to invalid_tag. So any mistagged images will get retagged correctly. Those mistags will not get passed on to the new tag.

The reason it got misused in the first place was because of conflicting ideas on what the tag meant between real life uses (like the wiki suggested) or transformation-only uses (like the implications suggested). Gender_transformation does not have that ambiguity, has no real life alternate uses, and is pretty clear what it's for. So it's far less problematic and less prone to be misunderstood or mistagged in the first place. Someone manually adding a tag which does not fit the picture is a problem which sometimes occurs for every tag on the site though. So, while this change would reduce the problem, nothing can prevent mistags entirely.

Think for a moment, users will try adding mtf ftm tags, they will change into gender transformation......but users will misuse that tag as well like they did with trasngender by putting it on images of girly males or dickgirls or something stupid like that. I already notice a few images that where tagged mtf on dickgirl images -.- soo its more a problem with stupid taggers.

Conker said:
Think for a moment, users will try adding mtf ftm tags, they will change into gender transformation......but users will misuse that tag as well like they did with trasngender by putting it on images of girly males or dickgirls or something stupid like that. I already notice a few images that where tagged mtf on dickgirl images -.- soo its more a problem with stupid taggers.

And how exactly do you want us to deal with incompetent people? All we can do is trying to educate them.

Or we could change mtf and ftm to mtf_transformation and ftm_transformation respective, an alias would still allow us to use the short version as well for tagging and searching while making much clearer what our intention with the tag is.

NotMeNotYou said:
...Or we could change mtf and ftm to mtf_transformation and ftm_transformation respective, an alias would still allow us to use the short version as well for tagging and searching while making much clearer what our intention with the tag is.

I quite like this idea. The fact it's clearer prevents misunderstandings or conflating it with crossdressing or real life mtf / ftm transgender people...none of which is correct. The more clear the tag is, the easier it is to police it and the harder it is for people to misuse it without realising it. In short, it makes for a stronger tag. Anyways, I'd be in favor of this.

NotMeNotYou said:
And how exactly do you want us to deal with incompetent people? All we can do is trying to educate them.

Or we could change mtf and ftm to mtf_transformation and ftm_transformation respective, an alias would still allow us to use the short version as well for tagging and searching while making much clearer what our intention with the tag is.

I think nuking the massively misused tags would do well. Add mtf ftm and gender_transformation to the nuke pile. As for changes in sex, we could use sex_change tag for images showing a actual sex change. Following tag what you see, we tag what we see, this is not mental stats or past genders not in the image.

mtf_transformation and ftm_transformation sounds better than a blanket gender_transformation -only-; I think they should both imply gender_transformation to enable someone to search for ftm, mtf, or both together. This retains searchability as well as clarifies usage. Transgender should still go the way of the dodo.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
After speaking with the senior management and admin staff, this is what we propose:

alias transgender to invalid_tag
imply ftm to gender_transformation
imply mtf to gender_transformation

I will be opening another thread to talk about intersex and get people's opinions on it. (meaning don't discuss it yet, in this thread :P )

You do know that the word transgender describes an actual thing, right?

furrypickle said:
I quite like this idea. The fact it's clearer prevents misunderstandings or conflating it with crossdressing or real life mtf / ftm transgender people...none of which is correct. The more clear the tag is, the easier it is to police it and the harder it is for people to misuse it without realising it. In short, it makes for a stronger tag. Anyways, I'd be in favor of this.

Exactly how is it clearer? Do you think that no one has ever drawn something featuring a transgender character? Like, what's the use of trying to reassign a word that we all recognize a concept by? I've used the tag twice in the past few days on posts that feature a stage of gender transition as it happens in the real world. That's what it's for and trying to rub out the tag because some people don't know what it means is pretty damn useless.

Pseudonym said:
You do know that the word transgender describes an actual thing, right?

Wrong, its a "state of mind" and doesn't follow "tag what you see" rule here. So it makes the tag rather useless and abused.

Pseudonym said:
Exactly how is it clearer? Do you think that no one has ever drawn something featuring a transgender character? Like, what's the use of trying to reassign a word that we all recognize a concept by? I've used the tag twice in the past few days on posts that feature a stage of gender transition as it happens in the real world. That's what it's for and trying to rub out the tag because some people don't know what it means is pretty damn useless.

Again its a "state of mind" which means a image of a girly crossdressing male could have some state of mind thats not shown in the image....we dont go by that, as its still what we see, a girly crossdressing male or for dickgirl images...well you get the idea. We dont tag state of minds, we tag what we see. Simple as that

Pseudonym said:
Exactly how is it clearer? Do you think that no one has ever drawn something featuring a transgender character? Like, what's the use of trying to reassign a word that we all recognize a concept by? I've used the tag twice in the past few days on posts that feature a stage of gender transition as it happens in the real world. That's what it's for and trying to rub out the tag because some people don't know what it means is pretty damn useless.

Calm down. Real life transgenderism is hard to tag by Tag What You See because it's a real life condition which starts out being known, not seen. And it largely remains invisible to the naked eye all the way from pre-op to post-op (if they go Op at all. Non-op is valid too). That's because it's not something obvious you can tell just by looking at someone whether they are transgender or not. And most transgender people spend a lot of energy minimizing anything which makes it obvious to anyone looking. Trying to blend in and look just like anyone else as much as possible: both for safety and for trying to live a normal life. So under Tag What You See, what do we have to tag it by? We already have tags for everything which is visible:

dickgirl = real life mtf who's had hormone therapy/top surgery but not bottom.
cuntboy = real life ftm who's had hormone therapy/top surgery but not bottom.
crossdressing = includes real life mtf who's pre-everything.
tomboy = includes real life ftm who's pre-op everything.
girly = someone who looks male but has feminine traits, includes many pre-op mtf with or without hormone therapy
female = includes real life mtf who's fully transitioned.
male = includes real life ftm who's fully transitioned.

What else is clearly visible in the image to tag? Transgender is already being tagged by its visible signs through seven other tags, so the transgender tag isn't needed. Also, the transgender tag was being used for people who identify as transgender, not visible transgender traits. Again, the visible traits already have their own tags, so it is being tagged. But the "known self identity" stuff we can't use the tags for. The description box is for known stuff, but the tags are for stuff visible in that image, and only visible stuff is taggable. It's not tagging the character or what their backstory is. The tags have to be Tag What You See, and the known self identity of a character is not Tag What You See. Of course it's real. But it's not tagged using a blanket "all transgender here" tag; it's tagged by each visible trait, and the known stuff can be put in description boxes when it's not visible.

Conker said:
Wrong, its a "state of mind" and doesn't follow "tag what you see" rule here. So it makes the tag rather useless and abused.

How in the fuck? That's like saying someone in transition is only transitioning if they think they are.

furrypickle said:
Calm down.

Hwat

furrypickle said:
words and equals signs

There's a pretty wide difference between someone who is transitioning and someone who exists and is comfortable existing with a particular gender designation.

Pseudonym said:
How in the fuck? That's like saying someone in transition is only transitioning if they think they are.

Hwat

There's a pretty wide difference between someone who is transitioning and someone who exists and is comfortable existing with a particular gender designation.

Again, we follow "Tag what you see" you are unable to see mind states therefor we dont use a tags like that. Again its a mind state, if you want to argue about it please take it elsewhere.

Conker said:
Again, we follow "Tag what you see" you are unable to see mind states therefor we dont use a tags like that. Again its a mind state, if you want to argue about it please take it elsewhere.

Try explaining why you think transition is a state o mind.

Also, side note: the ftm and mtf thing would probably be an alright solution, but they would still have to imply transgender because thats exactly what they refer to. Adding transformation to the end of those is a pretty retarded idea because it needlessly complicates things by shoehorning a new term into play where it isnt needed and isnt any more informative than the term already in common use.

Pseudonym said:
How in the fuck? That's like saying someone in transition is only transitioning if they think they are.

(...)

Try explaining why you think transition is a state o mind.

Transgender is not a word for physical transition. Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex). Character can be considered transgender without doing transition, and non transgender character can be transitioned to other gender (for example by force).

Also note that we're tagging furries. There is no way telling whether current physical state is just a transition, or a permanent state without breaking TWYS rule. As it was said we're generally not tagging state of minds, intentions, and other not visible things.

If you want to add that character is during transition or that xe is transgender then image description is accurate place for this. As well as for sexual orientation, explaining that your character is really a herm only you forgot to draw a pussy, etc.

Alrighty that's fine, but agaaaain:

Pseudonym said:
Also, side note: the ftm and mtf thing would probably be an alright solution, but they would still have to imply transgender because thats exactly what they refer to. Adding transformation to the end of those is a pretty retarded idea because it needlessly complicates things by shoehorning a new term into play where it isnt needed and isnt any more informative than the term already in common use. [/quote] There's still that problem to contend with.

Pseudonym said:
Alrighty that's fine, but agaaaain:

There's still that problem to contend with.

It's because, if I understand correctly, those tags don't refer to transgender. They refer to any transformation that changes sex of character. Like getting hit by a sex-changing gun
post #244088

This is a furry world. Here are sex changing guns, there are creatures that changes your sex by fucking you (Flexible Survival for example), and there are things so crazy that I can't even imagine them. Characters can change sex several time a day, and it's completely normal for furry world. Sex transformations don't have anything to do with transgender issue.

And why mtf_transfomation, not mtf? Because this tags are about transformation not the character that is transformed, and mtf/ftm IMO suggests that this is always a permanent transition.

Also I'm not really convinced whether those tags should exist. Maybe searching for crossgender transformation should be enough. If they exists shouldn't there be tags for, for example, male to herm transformation?

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Here are sex changing guns, there are creatures that changes your sex by fucking you (Flexible Survival for example), and there are things so crazy that I can't even imagine them. Characters can change sex several time a day, and it's completely normal for furry world. Sex transformations don't have anything to do with transgender issue.

That's why specificity is useful. Since when is it appropriate to generalize things when more detail can help narrow searches? I've searched for the transgender tag before looking for depictions of transition or characters going through transition and that's exactly what it returned. If I searched crossgender I might find what I'm after, but It'll be buried in a mess of starfoxisagirlnow and thischickgrewawiener pictures.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Also I'm not really convinced whether those tags should exist. Maybe searching for crossgender transformation should be enough. If they exists shouldn't there be tags for, for example, male to herm transformation?

I would put any gender_to_herm under the gender it came from, to the other gender, myself. Not quite accurate, but they are gaining characteristics of the other gender, so they're moving from male or female towards female or male, respectively. But that's me. FTH_transformation and MTH_transformation, if common enough, wouldn't be bad tags.

Crossgender_transformation, as I said, though, provides too little definition to be of use as a search term- It's like the whole huge_breasts/hyper_breasts/big_breasts shenanigans going on, where you have to block out other sizes if you want to search for smaller (but still big) sizes because of the implication tree.

Pseudonym said:
That's why specificity is useful. Since when is it appropriate to generalize things when more detail can help narrow searches? I've searched for the transgender tag before looking for depictions of transition or characters going through transition and that's exactly what it returned. If I searched crossgender I might find what I'm after, but It'll be buried in a mess of starfoxisagirlnow and thischickgrewawiener pictures.

How is a chick growing a weiner not a transition?

DrHorse said:
How is a chick growing a weiner not a transition?

This is pointless to ask as we dont tag states of minds anyway... But If its a image showing a change then it gets the transformation tag, just like a man turning into a werewolf. Now transgender is a state of mind tag which does not follow tag what you see. So its useless. We dont tag states of minds

Conker said:
This is pointless to ask as we dont tag states of minds anyway... But If its a image showing a change then it gets the transformation tag, just like a man turning into a werewolf. Now transgender is a state of mind tag which does not follow tag what you see. So its useless. We dont tag states of minds

Like I said, it's proven to be pretty useful for me. What's useless is trying to limit specificity.

Pseudonym said:
Like I said, it's proven to be pretty useful for me. What's useless is trying to limit specificity.

Short Answer: You learned to utilize an erroneous tag.

Long answer: This tag should have never existed in the first place, we are merely getting rid of it because of that, yes, it is sad for you because you learned to use this error to your advantage, but we can't exactly take this into consideration if we are to improve and clean up our utilized tags on the site, like the others said, transgender is nothing that should ever be tagged on this site, as it does not comply with TWYS.

NotMeNotYou said:
Short Answer: You learned to utilize an erroneous tag.

I'm concerned with having searches return appropriate results, meng. Someone will have to come up with some kind of avenue to address this scenario because dismissing the common term in favour of an even less appropriate one doesn't do anything to clean up anyone's tagging.

That's where the "or sorted out better" part of the thread title comes in and what has been suggested ain't gonna cut it because it would just shift the misuse to a different and inapplicable term.

There has to be some way to distinguish between depictions of transgender people taking steps toward transition and sex reassignment by fuggin magic guns. Crossgender seems to handle the latter just fine.

NotMeNotYou said:
Short Answer: You learned to utilize an erroneous tag.

Long answer: This tag should have never existed in the first place, we are merely getting rid of it because of that, yes, it is sad for you because you learned to use this error to your advantage, but we can't exactly take this into consideration if we are to improve and clean up our utilized tags on the site, like the others said, transgender is nothing that should ever be tagged on this site, as it does not comply with TWYS.

This^

Pseudonym said:
That's where the "or sorted out better" part of the thread title comes in and what has been suggested ain't gonna cut it because it would just shift the misuse to a different and inapplicable term.

There has to be some way to distinguish between depictions of transgender people taking steps toward transition and sex reassignment by fuggin magic guns. Crossgender seems to handle the latter just fine.

The "or sorted out better" part of that, would have the exact same downside you're already complaining about.
Your argument is "Keep bad tag because I like to use it".
"sorted out better" means making it not a bad tag, which involves removing it from most of the images you're looking for because they never should have been tagged with it.

1 month later and I am still seeing this tag be abused and misused on images of dickgirls and girly crossdressers. Since transgender is a mindset and we follow tag what you see, can we nuke this tag already?

Peekaboo said:
Yes, let's.

Indeed.

Did we ever even agree on anything? All I see is a bunch of arguing.
I'm just gonna alias transgender to invalid_tag. Sound alright?

By popular opinion I guess so. I still don't agree with it btw

ippiki_ookami said:
Did we ever even agree on anything? All I see is a bunch of arguing.
I'm just gonna alias transgender to invalid_tag. Sound alright?

Yes, that sounds great.

ippiki_ookami said:
Did we ever even agree on anything? All I see is a bunch of arguing.
I'm just gonna alias transgender to invalid_tag. Sound alright?

Sounds good to me

Butterscotch said:
By popular opinion I guess so.

Your voice matters too. Tell us your opinion

ok i did the thing

ippiki_ookami said:
ok i did the thing

The thing with the thing by the thing?

ippiki_ookami said:
ok i did the thing

Halite said:
The thing with the thing by the thing?

Oh thank Ceiling Cat the thing was handled by doing the thing over the other thing which wasnt a good thing and this thing is finally over due to the thing being done. Thanks Ippiki

We should make an announcement saying "USE THE PROPER TAGS because we keep hearing complaints." I can only view things.

THEGUYWITHRANDOMNESS said:
We should make an announcement saying "USE THE PROPER TAGS because we keep hearing complaints." I can only view things.

When idiots think the "proper tags" for a dickgirl is a herm or a crossdresser is transgender....than that wouldnt help at all.

The answer to people not following TWYS isn't to just nuke the tag...

If the problem is that people who wanted to search for the tag got some irrelevant images... with this they can't search for the tag at all.

ThenIThought said:
The answer to people not following TWYS isn't to just nuke the tag...

If the problem is that people who wanted to search for the tag got some irrelevant images... with this they can't search for the tag at all.

The tag does not follow tag what you see. Transgender is a mindset, not a dickgirl, crossdresser or herm. Its a mindset, and we dont tag mindsets.