Due to recent discussions about implications of kind "shibari is bondage, bondage is bdsm", I understood that there are lots of people here who think that they know or that they understand what BDSM is, what bondage, and, possibly not being part of any of it, imply that those things are same , due to lack of knowledge or due prudish or stereotypic environment they live in.

In fact, those three do not imply each other, as well neither of them doesn't imply sex or romance in any form.

I tried to simplify it but was only called a moron. But some of my peers offered me to link this article which does the best and shortest explanation what BDSM nature is.

http://dominantguide.com/676/bdsm-does-not-equal-sex-does-not-equal-love-automatically/

Here is one about shibari:

http://www.artofcontemporaryshibari.com/?page_id=29

SO.. technically, shibari is art, study of body, even public exhibition. BDSM is study of each other, or yourself, exploration of personality. While bondage is comfort fetish, just like collar plays (which do not implay anything BDSM related).

BDSM might be role-played during intercourses, but in those cases it's role-play, it's not actual BDSM. It might be used as foreplay, but not necessary.

Shibari is kind of bondage which is too complex or too impractical to be used full-scale in intercourse, it's not designed to. Shibari is art ofcreating picture from rope and body, bondage elements also sometimes used for that.

BDSM does not imply sex. No one has argued that it should or does. You have been told to go back and actually learn what the words mean because you do not understand what an implication is, or that if something is always within the scope of something it doesn't mean that it is in the scope of all of what that something is. Bondage is an inherant part of BDSM. not all the aspects of BDSM are inherantly involved in bondage, though they can be combined. This is why shibari is aliased to rope_bondage, because it IS rope bondage- shibari MEANS 'to tie', and kinbaku, the ancient art of erotic bondage that evolved from martial art bondage techniques (That's a phrase I never expected to have to type), is just another variant of rope bondage with an erotic twist. This has been explained time and time again, to others who did not understand, and also to you. And NONE of it implies sex. So, as I have been saying, educate yourself before you continue talking about things you don't understand, PLEASE.

I don't understand your logic , where you getting that bondage is inherent element of BDSM? If use that logic, then _everything_ you can do partner is inherent element of BDSM. Bondage was born separately, either shibari, or hardware bondage - western's bondage's orign is similar to shibari's - and it is born as discipline in 1930, while BDSM was born much earlier.

What you call me not knowing what is what - it's actually problem that I cannot explain in in proper way on your language, may be.

Yes, shibari right now is aliased to rope_bondage.. but someone wants to make implication rope_bondage -> bondage, just like bondage-> bdsm. It automatically makes shibari -> bdsm.

[facedesk]

[facedesk]

[facedesk]

How many topics are you going to make on this? Shibari, bondage, painplay, domination, submission, Eurasian nipple torture, whatever you call it, is BDSM. BDSM is an umbrella term for activity focusing on restraining, harming, or roughly stimulating the human body with erotic intent.

I don't care if getting suspended from the ceiling while having clowns beat you with phone books is a completely nonsexual performance art piece. If it's posted to a porn site, it should be tagged as BDSM.

SirAntagonist said:
If it's posted to a porn site, it should be tagged as BDSM.

No, BDSM doesn't have obligation to have erotic intent.

Ok, who said, that e621 is purely porn site, or that everyone who visit it use it as porn site? :P

Plus your own definition invalidated this picture to be tagged as bdsm, how it was offered before:

https://e621.net/post/show/384815/bdsm-bondage-bound-breasts-female-harness-nude-rim

I probably found origin of misconception: checking older dictionaries , I found this:

bondage: the tenure or service of a villein, serf, or slave

from Websters.

It's very outdated ter, usually we think that bondage -> physical , not social ones, but old English supposes so. Should we use then [[restraints] tags.. like cuffs, collar, rop_bondage, but not tagging it abdsm, if no actual harming or syimulating akes place.

He said that clowns beating someone up in a completely nonsexual way should be tagged as BDSM. That is the complete antithesis of saying BDSM has erotic intent. Learn the words before you type.

Posting torture/abuse/pain type art to a porn thread does not make it BDSM ("sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken!").

BDSM is a sexual art that focuses on pleasure through pain, or through control. It is also consensual, even if the needs of the other are not being recognized. Just because sadism is part of BDSM, doesn't mean that sadistic acts/people are also BDSM.

EDFDarkAngel1 said:
It is also consensual.

whut u call this then

SirAntagonist said:
whut u call this then

Not legitimate rape.
Oh crap! They might get pregnant.

That's what I wanted to answer, but thread was locked for a while.

Yeah, that picture he offered.. whould be actually good example of guro, if person hanged will be naked or picture would besexualized in any other way.. because main features of guro is : unlikely real (nonsense content is also guro - for example cock or anal vore), repulsive, weird or comical - i.e. grotesque, containing nudity or sexual content or gore and violence

I'm confused, I don't see any guro in this thread?

Halite said:
I'm confused, I don't see any guro in this thread?

one he described as clown beating someone with phone books

BDSM not just concesual.. it's search of what both persons - sub and master like to do together.. it's tease primarily verbal, secondarily - physical, then experimenting, wher sub absolutely submits mentally and physically to master. Depends on type of relations, it even allows abadon only one thing, or only whole relations (consensual nonconsent). Not necessary BDSM is rough or painful, it's consensual submitting is what defines BDSM.. might be just inconvenient - hehe, tickles? If say bdsm what is inherently used bdsm - them we should put all fetishes into bdsm, absolutely all realistic ones - tickling, scat, watersports, inflation, ponyplay, animalplay, latex, encasement. Thing is that sometimes picture does give chance to imply such relations - or even excludes it.
When robbers took down victim, bound, raped then snuffed her - it's rape, bondage, fnonconsensual, snuff, death, probably sadism and such. But there shouldn't be bdsm tag..

BDSM isn't fetish, not umbrella.. it's relations between people. bsm should be used where consent, submission,servitude, slavery is implied.

What 123 defined it's S^M - rough or painful stimulation, yeah.. it's one frequently used by bdsm but not equal to it.

Swiftkill said:
one he described as clown beating someone with phone books

BDSM not just concesual.. it's search of what both persons - sub and master like to do together.. it's tease primarily verbal, secondarily - physical, then experimenting, wher sub absolutely submits mentally and physically to master. Depends on type of relations, it even allows abadon only one thing, or only whole relations (consensual nonconsent). Not necessary BDSM is rough or painful, it's consensual submitting is what defines BDSM.. might be just inconvenient - hehe, tickles? If say bdsm what is inherently used bdsm - them we should put all fetishes into bdsm, absolutely all realistic ones - tickling, scat, watersports, inflation, ponyplay, animalplay, latex, encasement. Thing is that sometimes picture does give chance to imply such relations - or even excludes it.
When robbers took down victim, bound, raped then snuffed her - it's rape, bondage, fnonconsensual, snuff, death, probably sadism and such. But there shouldn't be bdsm tag..

BDSM isn't fetish, not umbrella.. it's relations between people. bsm should be used where consent, submission,servitude, slavery is implied.

What 123 defined it's S^M - rough or painful stimulation, yeah.. it's one frequently used by bdsm but not equal to it.

I must disagree on most of your points. BDSM is a fetish, considered to be one of the first. Typically, when people speak of fetish, they are referencing to the BDSM sex lifestyle.

BDSM requires consent from both parties, otherwise it is rape/abuse/etc. Just because someone is put into stocks, or being tortured (non-guro), doesn't mean they didn't consent. Some people do, in fact, like being that submissive to their partner, they draw pleasure from it.

I feel you may have been misinformed as to what BDSM is, because this is something I've had several years of experience in and there is a certain method to it, and certain rules. If, for example, your partner gives the safe word and you don't stop, that stops being consensual and becomes rape.

That wouldn't be guro based on common usage of the term, so that wouldn't be how we would tag it.

You clearly don't understand tagging here, or for that matter BDSM as a tag.
You are literally the only person who has a problem with this.
And you won't stop bringing it back up again.

Bondage implies BDSM, always will, based purely on the definitions of those tags as used here.

I think I know what he's saying

Bondage implies BDSM
BDSM is consensual
Bondage can be tagged on non consensual pictures, thus also adding BDSM
Problem

We have two options
Unimplicate bondage from BDSM or
Use bound for non consensual bondage acts of just being bound, and bondage solely for the consensual act of BDSM

unless I'm missing something here....

Rainbow_Dash said:
Use bound for non consensual bondage acts of just being bound, and bondage solely for the consensual act of BDSM

I like this one.

Rainbow_Dash said:
Use bound for non consensual bondage acts of just being bound, and bondage solely for the consensual act of BDSM

Which is how they've been defined for as long as I can remember. No need to change anything.

Genjar said:
No need to change anything.

+1,000,000,000

Rainbow_Dash said:
...
BDSM is consensual...

Nope, nope, and nope.
All of my nope.
If you force someone to do BDSM, it's rape, and illegal, but it doesn't magically become not BDSM anymore.

Halite, you're hypocrite, if you say so, or bondage , bdsm or shibari isn't your thing and you just look on them as one same thing .. and obviously you either aren't in community or someone who shouldn't be trusted to enter it. Three main pillars of bdsm is consent , trust and ability to opt out.

If you force someone to do BDSM, it's rape, and it's sadism. period.

But bondage implicated to bound.. so anything bondage gets bound and bdsm. Btw, that implication's logic is wrong, because bondage not necessary bound aka tied.. being encased, or locked on leash is also bondage?

Anyway about this case: remove bdsm tag as whole, as TWYS policy? because you can't actually see bdsm?
leave those elements and leave tags sadism and masochism, submission, , forced_<something>, if they are appropriate. BDSM is volatile thing that cannot be seen, and search tag it's very wide.. implying too much of different stuff?

Swiftkill said:
Halite, you're hypocrite, if you say so, or bondage , bdsm or shibari isn't your thing and you just look on them as one same thing .. and obviously you either aren't in community or someone who shouldn't be trusted to enter it.

But bondage implicated to bound.. so anything bondage gets bound and bdsm. Btw, that implication's logic is wrong, because bondage net necessary bound.. being encased, or locked on leash is also bondage?

How dare you call me a hypocrite?
You don't know me, at all.

I never said that non-consensual sexual behavior is acceptable, or ok, or something I am into doing, or even seeing.
What I said was that by removing consent from a BDSM situation it doesn't magically make it not BDSM anymore.
Just like if you remove consent from sex it is rape, but it's also still sex.
It does make it illegal, and immoral, and a horrible thing for anyone to do, but it's still BDSM.

I think you're confusing the "BDSM community" with "BDSM" the category of activities.
Not the same thing.

Well, but rape isn't love, it's nonconsensual sex? Same with bdsm

Swiftkill said:
Well, but rape isn't love, it's nonconsensual sex? Same with bdsm

Yes, exactly the same, non-consensual sex is sex without consent, and it's still sex.
Non-consensual BDSM is BDSM without consent, and it's still BDSM.

Halite said:
Yes, exactly the same, non-consensual sex is sex without consent, and it's still sex.
Non-consensual BDSM is BDSM without consent, and it's still BDSM.

you didn't understood me.. nonconsensual intercourse cannot be BDSM, just how it cannot be love, it's sadistic rape - btw, it can be quite _different_ fetish. Such implication confuses people for whom it Is a thing, confuses those who try search using those tags.. or insults

I can tell why started all of this.. I had told by quite anumber of people that e621 is weird site, they don't have bondage.
I went ??? and pointed at bondage pics..
They were surprised - they were searching excluding bdsm tag from search. And asked why bondage is linked to bdsm.
They weren't into bdsm

Swiftkill said:
you didn't understood me.. nonconsensual intercourse cannot be BDSM, just how it cannot be love, it's sadistic rape - btw, it can be quite _different_ fetish. Such implication confuses people for whom it Is a thing.. or insults

I understand just fine, and you're wrong.
If a rapist practices BDSM as part of his rape, it's still BDSM, it's also rape, but it's BDSM as well.

Okay so then that makes things simple and I see why we are having an issue

One party says BDSM is always consensual, which would make the implication incorrect

One party is saying BDSM is BDSM, regardless of consent, and in that case nothing needs to be changed

So the problem really comes down to what we want to use as our definition of BDSM, for the purposes of tagging on our site (Not the actual definition as that may not work out best for tagging)

And please let's keep it civil and not throw names here

It isn't practical to attempt to determine consent from images.
Particularly with BDSM as consensual BDSM acts can easily appear to be non-consensual.
It would be best, and easiest to not tie the validity of the tag to whether or not there appears to be consent.

In addition, many people would consider bondage to be a part of BDSM, and want to blacklist that material.
It is more intuitive to simply blacklist BDSM, and then expect bondage to also be blacklisted, rather than having to blacklist BDSM then bondage, then any other BDSM activity that we might not have tagged as BDSM because of apparent lack of consent.
Not to mention, those that would blacklist BDSM are probably more likely to not want to see non-consensual forms of it than would prefer to see only non-consensual BDSM.

I will state it bluntly since its one of my favorite things on e6... people BDSM is being held down ALWAYS by force and being in a third party sense, "fornicated" without consent at all of the person or persons in question it is often a matter of slave and owner you could say...

thatoneclarinetist said:
people BDSM is being held down ALWAYS by force and being in a third party sense, "fornicated" without consent at all of the person or persons in question it is often a matter of slave and owner you could say...

Uh, no.

BDSM doesn't have to entail being restrained or forced. It doesn't have to entail roleplaying, either. It often does, but tools like Whartenburg wheels, violet wands, and scalpels don't require restraint or dialogue. Belittling and inflicting pain are also part of BDSM.

Swiftkill said:
And asked why bondage is linked to bdsm.
They weren't into bdsm

Bondage. Is. BDSM.

"BDSM is a variety of erotic practices involving dominance and submission, role-playing, restraint, and other interpersonal dynamics. Given the wide range of practices, some of which may be engaged in by people who do not consider themselves as practicing BDSM, inclusion in the BDSM community and/or subculture is usually dependent on self-identification and shared experience."

Just because you don't identify as being into BDSM DOESN'T MEAN you're not into BDSM. The tag what you see policy is for the purpose of allowing people to effectively search what they want to see and what they don't want to see. If we see a male having sex with another male, we tag it as gay. Not bisexual, not pan sexual, gay. Because that's what's in the picture.

If I see someone suspended from the ceiling by their nipples, I'm tagging it as BDSM. Doesn't matter if it's consensual, doesn't matter if it's non-consensual, doesn't matter if it's sexual or non-sexual. It's BDSM.

And if it's a picture like these

post #451983

post #451027

post #449675

post #450939

post #450689

post #449221

post #449677

how do you determine if it's consensual or not? There's literally no way to tell when the fetish itself sometimes involves being put in rape-y situations.

I never said that consensual part is obvious.. actually whole BDSM part isn't if you judge on look. Those picture I see (excluding pony ones) are clearly bdsm.

post #323089

post #378290

I doubt it is. Neither it's rape-y situations, in first she is absolutely free, just dressed in decorative adornment, yet it considered bondage.. second.. you barely actually cannot reach her or do something to her.

Halite said:
Not to mention, those that would blacklist BDSM are probably more likely to not want to see non-consensual forms of it than would prefer to see only non-consensual BDSM.

Actually it's often opposite. Non-bdsm bondage play is quite different in mood, look ,etc. Those people might usually blacklist bdsm, just as well as explicit images, and some other tags related to violence.

In fact, term BDSM doen't contain activity of bondage as act of restraining someone? Did you ever think why "Bondage & Discipline"?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bondage
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/bondage (specially checked if American English is different)

They use 1) of bondage word. Also it is sometimes used in play like that

Swiftkill said:
Actually it's often opposite. Non-bdsm bondage play is quite different in mood, look ,etc. Those people might usually blacklist bdsm, just as well as explicit images, and some other tags related to violence.

In fact, term BDSM doen't contain activity of bondage as act of restraining someone? Did you ever think why "Bondage & Discipline"?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bondage
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/bondage (specially checked if American English is different)

They use 1) of bondage word. Also it is sometimes used in play like that

What looks better for a blacklist entry:

A: BDSM -bondage
or
B: BDSM bondage dominance sadism masochism discipline submissive whipping spanking torture

And I probably missed some in B.

Do you mean that rest of tags should be in different lines I suppose, or it will create quite narrow block?
Post should match all tags in line to be blacklisted.
Possible, yeah. Requires to create account and somewhat tenure.
Is there limit to blacklist length?

Swiftkill said:
Do you mean that rest of tags should be in different lines I suppose, or it will create quite narrow block?
Post should match all tags in line to be blacklisted.
Possible, yeah. Requires to create account and somewhat tenure.
Is there limit to blacklist length?

Yes separate lines.
The B option would be required to block all of BDSM as well as what you would consider to be not BDSM purely because of no consent.
Or we could ignore consent, and all you need is "BDSM", and if you want to whitelist any specific portion of BDSM like bondage you can add -bondage to the line.

Yes there's a limit to blacklist, it's fairly large, especially compared to the limits on searching, but there are people who get close to, or hit that limit.
Not to mention the sheer amount of tags you have to figure out that you need blacklisted just because someone thinks BDSM should only be tagged if it's consensual(which is still borderline impossible to determine in an image).

Swiftkill said:
I never said that consensual part is obvious.. actually whole BDSM part isn't if you judge on look. Those picture I see (excluding pony ones) are clearly bdsm.

post #323089

post #378290

I doubt it is. Neither it's rape-y situations, in first she is absolutely free, just dressed in decorative adornment, yet it considered bondage.. second.. you barely actually cannot reach her or do something to her.

Are they tied up?

Great! You answered your own question. I'm not sure how many times I can say "Bondage is part of BDSM" before I tear my hair out.

SirAntagonist said:
Are they tied up?

Great! You answered your own question. I'm not sure how many times I can say "Bondage is part of BDSM" before I tear my hair out.

That's not bondage and first one isn't tied up

Swiftkill said:
That's not bondage and first one isn't tied up

Both of those are bondage.

Swiftkill said:
first one isn't tied up

are you blind

SirAntagonist said:
are you blind

He thinks shibari/kinbaku ropework =/= bondage.

123easy said:
He thinks shibari/kinbaku ropework =/= bondage.

Seems like he thinks bondage isn't bondage half the time.

Halite said:
Seems like he thinks bondage isn't bondage half the time.

That's what I just said. ;)

This topic hasn't gone anywhere since it started so I'm locking it.

bondage implies bdsm, this isn't changing. Both still get tagged regardless of consent because consent is impractical or impossible to determine from the image in many cases.