Sadly I have been trying to tag here and there for years, and this still boggles my mind. I am sure we may not get a definate answer, but I am so so confused still with images like

post #468740

I have seen image after image of flat chested feminine characters with vaginas called 'cuntboys' - considered males.
I have seen image after image of mamorried maschuline characters with penis(es) and testicles called 'dickgirls' - considered females
I have seen image after image of flat chested masculine characters with vaginas considered males.
I have seen image after image of mamorried feminine characters with penis(es) and testicles considered female.

I am so so confused....

In the furry fandom, is the sex of a character based off of secondary sexual traits (like chest, muscle structure, etc) instead of primary sexual traits (like testicles, vaginas, etc)?

I would love to have some insight on why this is. Why a feminine body structure without breasts and a vagina would be considered male/cuntboy with Tag What You See.

post #104460

Why a masculine body structure with breasts and a penis/testicles would be considered herm/female?

Usually just tagger error. Broad shoulders or musculature do not affect tagging, if I'm correct. See Dmitrys futa.

Tagging gender for 12-year olds:
Penis+vagoo+titties=herm
Penis+vagoo-titties=maleherm (not a popular tag)
Penis-vagoo+titties=dickgirl
Vagoo-penis-titties=cuntboy, or simply flat chested female, depending on context (this is the most annoying)
Male and female should be obvious, just check under your pants when you're not quite sure.

Bodysuits on the other hand, fuck those. Like this: post #479020
what the fuck do you put on that? male?

Short answer: Welcome to the world of ambiguity, where the males of a species can grow naturally to look like a petite woman and the females can grow to look masculine.
Now add in some artistic freedom, the fact that nobody draws photorealistic, didn't take extensive anatomy lessons and isn't building the body up to be a representation of 'real life' and you have a result that is best described by throwing coin.

I mean, you successfully found the grey area nobody of us likes because there are no definite answers short of rolling a die, and, just like you, we have no idea how to do it better.

Feel free to propose a solution that fits into TWYS, or better guidelines to help make decisions on what it should be.

_Waffles_ said:
post #104460

Why a masculine body structure with breasts and a penis/testicles would be considered herm/female?

The tag maleherm is a thing.

I understand, I guess my primary confusion is that most of the time I find that cuntboy also gets tagged male, even though there is only a vagina as a primary sex trait.

Same goes for dickgirl being tagged along side female when there is only a penis/testicles seen as a primary sex trait.

Are these bad taggings? Is dickgirl/cuntboy a full on sex like herm has become? How does a cuntboy with feminine build like the first image tagged with the existance of flat chested females? Do females without prominent breasts get tagged as a different "sex" : cuntboy?
Do males with larger breasts (due to weight or visual altercations in lets say a one page comic) have their "sex" changed?

_Waffles_ said:
I understand, I guess my primary confusion is that most of the time I find that cuntboy also gets tagged male, even though there is only a vagina as a primary sex trait.

Same goes for dickgirl being tagged along side female when there is only a penis/testicles seen as a primary sex trait.

Are these bad taggings? Is dickgirl/cuntboy a full on sex like herm has become? How does a cuntboy with feminine build like the first image tagged with the existance of flat chested females? Do females without prominent breasts get tagged as a different "sex" : cuntboy?
Do males with larger breasts (due to weight or visual altercations in lets say a one page comic) have their "sex" changed?

That would be bad tagging yes.
Comics you tag each single page based on what's visible in the image.
If in 1 page of a comic a single character magically changes from male to female, you tag both.
Dickgirl is it's own gender tag, yes. Penis + breasts without a vagina = dickgirl.

Cuntboys are a bit complicated, if there's a vagina, and a flat chest, but they look female other than the lack of breasts, then it's a judgement call, usually female + flat_chest.
If there's a vagina and no breasts, and looks masculine, that's cuntboy for sure.

I seriously want to just nuke the tag 'cuntboy' from orbit. It shouldn't exist. It's genderifying the sex. Same with 'maleherm'.

123easy said:
I seriously want to just nuke the tag 'cuntboy' from orbit. It shouldn't exist. It's genderifying the sex. Same with 'maleherm'.

They're a physically distinct set of characteristics that people are interested in finding.
The tag system is to help people find things, so those are good tags to have.

Halite said:
They're a physically distinct set of characteristics that people are interested in finding.
The tag system is to help people find things, so those are good tags to have.

They're flatchested feminine-bodied women going by primary sexual characteristics. There's nothing distinct about that from actual females.

123easy said:
They're flatchested feminine-bodied women going by primary sexual characteristics. There's nothing distinct about that from actual females.

Yeah, no.

123easy said:
They're flatchested feminine-bodied women going by primary sexual characteristics. There's nothing distinct about that from actual females.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/024eeb18be23addcb9fb0ac269a36a86/tumblr_inline_n3qz56GQ3f1sw2lsr.png

I for one love cuntboys. Cuntboys for life.

Peekaboo said:
K.
post #363179 post #391316 post #419768

post #460657 post #445602 post #446864

Yeah, and? We have women that look like men in real life: http://jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/images/2007/07/10/skyler2.jpg Skyler Cooper as pictured, for example.

And muscle-bound bodies aren't male-only either: http://www.coastalbodies.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/female_muscle-11.jpg

Same goes in reverse, with men that look very feminine. Cuntboys don't exist.

123easy said:
...Cuntboys don't exist.

Neither do dragons, but you seem ok with having tags for them.

Halite said:
Neither do dragons, but you seem ok with having tags for them.

Because they aren't gender constructs that break TWYS.

123easy said:
Because they aren't gender constructs that break TWYS.

They're no less imaginary than cuntboys.
Cuntboys are a thing, they're a thing that way imagined by people, but they're a thing.
It's not something we just made up to tag things with.
It also doesn't break TWYS, at all.

Halite said:
They're no less imaginary than cuntboys.
Cuntboys are a thing, they're a thing that way imagined by people, but they're a thing.
It's not something we just made up to tag things with.
It also doesn't break TWYS, at all.

It does because it does not have any specific traits to itself that are not directly taken from currently existing sexes. We tag sex, not gender. Cuntboy is a gender construct as they are biologically a female by sex, be they masculine in form or feminine in form.

123easy said:
It does because it does not have any specific traits to itself that are not directly taken from currently existing sexes. We tag sex, not gender. Cuntboy is a gender construct as they are biologically a female by sex, be they masculine in form or feminine in form.

The use of "sex" as you are currently using it is a synonym of the word "gender".
You are making a nonsense argument, it quite literally makes no sense.

Also, we don't tag gender, or sex.
We tag what is visible in the image, and if what's visible is a masculine character that has a vagina, it's a cuntboy, so we tag it.
Even though cuntboy is a made up thing.

Here's a bit of a surprising point, 99% of the images on this website are of made up things.
There aren't any real humanoid talking animal creatures :O

My main problem with cuntboy tag is that it's so overused. Even when the majority sees a flat-chested female, the image always ends up tagged as cuntboy anyway as long as there's even a single user who thinks that it's a cuntboy. So in that sense, I'd say that it does break TWYS.

Genjar said:
My main problem with cuntboy tag is that it's so overused. Even when the majority sees a flat-chested female, the image always ends up tagged as cuntboy anyway as long as there's even a single user who thinks that it's a cuntboy. So in that sense, I'd say that it does break TWYS.

That would be bad tagging.
If it happens, report it to an admin, they'll make a ruling, and everyone goes by that, problem solved.

Halite said:
That would be bad tagging.
If it happens, report it to an admin, they'll make a ruling, and everyone goes by that, problem solved.

One major problem with that: Admins cant even decide what is right and wrong on this site...

https://e621.net/forum/show/122133

This is commonly seen all over the place... Admins differ greatly, and having it so that the first admin that gets to it makes the call just creates confusion for all.

I am just curious about one thing that was not truly answered when brought up earlier: Why do we use a TWYS system when we cont really use it.

Sadly, especially in this fandom (furry), gender DOES NOT equal sex.

Someone can be male, but identify themselves as female. Their sex is male, but their gender is female.

SO with a tag what you see system, why do we tag male/cuntboy when the sex of the character seen is female due to a vagina with no penis/testicles to make it a herm?

same goes for 'dickgirl'. Why do we tag a female gender to a male sexed character?

_Waffles_ said:
One major problem with that: Admins cant even decide what is right and wrong on this site...

https://e621.net/forum/show/122133

This is commonly seen all over the place... Admins differ greatly, and having it so that the first admin that gets to it makes the call just creates confusion for all.

I am just curious about one thing that was not truly answered when brought up earlier: Why do we use a TWYS system when we cont really use it.

Sadly, especially in this fandom (furry), gender DOES NOT equal sex.

Someone can be male, but identify themselves as female. Their sex is male, but their gender is female.

SO with a tag what you see system, why do we tag male/cuntboy when the sex of the character seen is female due to a vagina with no penis/testicles to make it a herm?

same goes for 'dickgirl'. Why do we tag a female gender to a male sexed character?

1st, if the admins can't agree, you ask EDF, the head admin who will then make a final decision.

2nd, For about the billionth time, we don't tag sex, we don't tag gender.
All we tag is what genitals are visible in an image.
And if there's a visible vagina, there is no situation where we tag male.

Halite said:
1st, if the admins can't agree, you ask EDF, the head admin who will then make a final decision.

2nd, For about the billionth time, we don't tag sex, we don't tag gender.
All we tag is what genitals are visible in an image.
And if there's a visible vagina, there is no situation where we tag male.

so all "female", "male", "cuntboy", "dickgirl", "herm", etc is actually not supposed to be there then if we dont tag sex nor gender. those are actually invalid tags.

we just tag the genitals we see.

Althought that would be great for that would truly define tag what you see.... I think a lot of people are going to fight that one...

This will make things about 99% easier every time I come across an MLP pony with a giant penis that is called 'female'.

Got it. Thank you very much.

Do people still not know how to tag Dickgirls and Cuntboys? Truly Shameful .

Halite said:
2nd, For about the billionth time, we don't tag sex, we don't tag gender.

Incorrect. e621 has always tagged sex based on the pornography industry's labels of gender. Because it is a porn site, and that any "PC" Terms out there are widely disputed.. e621 will always continue to tag sex based on those terms.

_Waffles_ said:
so all "female", "male", "cuntboy", "dickgirl", "herm", etc is actually not supposed to be there then if we dont tag sex nor gender. those are actually invalid tags.

we just tag the genitals we see.

Althought that would be great for that would truly define tag what you see.... I think a lot of people are going to fight that one...

This will make things about 99% easier every time I come across an MLP pony with a giant penis that is called 'female'.

Got it. Thank you very much.

No, you don't "got it".
You're being intentionally obtuse.

In the context of our tagging system the "gender" tags are not actually labeling the gender of anything, we use them to denote a certain body configuration for the character.
So, the female tag is simply saying "that character has only female bits visible in this image", male = visible male bits only, dickgirl = visible penis + breasts but no visible vagina, herm = visible penis and vagina, cuntboy = visible vagina, and visible lack of female breasts.

If you see an MLP pony with a giant penis that's tagged female, then the person who added that tag is wrong, and an idiot, and should be reported for bad tagging.

All you're complaining about is bad tagging, and that's not the fault of the system, or how we use tags, it's the fault of bad taggers, and if you handle them appropriately they're eventually stopped.

Halite said:
No, you don't "got it".
You're being intentionally obtuse.

In the context of our tagging system the "gender" tags are not actually labeling the gender of anything, we use them to denote a certain body configuration for the character.
So, the female tag is simply saying "that character has only female bits visible in this image", male = visible male bits only, dickgirl = visible penis + breasts but no visible vagina, herm = visible penis and vagina, cuntboy = visible vagina, and visible lack of female breasts.

If you see an MLP pony with a giant penis that's tagged female, then the person who added that tag is wrong, and an idiot, and should be reported for bad tagging.

All you're complaining about is bad tagging, and that's not the fault of the system, or how we use tags, it's the fault of bad taggers, and if you handle them appropriately they're eventually stopped.

I am being "obtuse" for a specific reason. I am tired of getting in fucking tag wars because of this "bad tagging"! I have been reprimended by admins before due to these same god damned reasons.

Have a Fluttershy character with a giant cock, labeled female and herm even though there are no other 'sex traits' beyond long eye lashes and I am the one in the fucking wrong for tagging it male.

I am trying to figure out the god damn right way to tag so that I will not have to fight to get PROPER TAG WHAT YOU SEE tags to stick, and not get reprimanded by privileged/custodians/admins because even they are missing what TWYS is supposed to be...

It IS the fault of the system if the people trying to guide the site to proper tagging can not even agree on how TWYS works in these instances.

Halite said:
cuntboy = visible vagina, and visible lack of female breasts.

That's the problem.
I don't see anything 'boyish' about lack of breasts, at least not if it's a female reptile or avian (or any other non-mammal) that didn't have breasts to begin with. Especially not if it's a feral. Yet those are consistently tagged as cuntboy.

If anatomically correct females get tagged as cuntboy, there's a flaw in the system. And that happens constantly; I've seen hundreds of cuntboy tag wars. At this point, I'm for nuking that tag: it'd save a lot of everyone's time.

Genjar said:
That's the problem.
I don't see anything 'boyish' about lack of breasts, at least not if it's a female reptile or avian (or any other non-mammal) that didn't have breasts to begin with. Especially not if it's a feral. Yet those are consistently tagged as cuntboy.

If anatomically correct females get tagged as cuntboy, there's a flaw in the system. And that happens constantly; I've seen hundreds of cuntboy tag wars. At this point, I'm for nuking that tag: it'd save a lot of everyone's time.

Just to let you know. If we nuke the cuntboy tag, we should also nuke the other side of the page: dickgirl.

I am fully in favor for nuking both of these tags. They can create problems heavily with the TWYS system.

Just because they're difficult to tag doesn't mean we should nuke them. There will always be people looking to find/blacklist these types of images.

ceti said:
Just because they're difficult to tag doesn't mean we should nuke them. There will always be people looking to find/blacklist these types of images.

Well no, not just because of that.
TWYS doesn't really work for tags where half of the users see one thing and the other half sees something else. Tag wars almost always continue even after the admin call has been made.

It's gotten to the point where I don't want to upload images that might possibly get tagged as cuntboy or dickgirl. Because I don't like seeing those arguments in my comment log, and it's a bummer to have to report someone because of something that I uploaded.

Other image boards do just fine without those tags. For example, Danbooru's system of tagging herm, dickgirl and cuntboy all as futanari (with visible organs tagged) is a lot simpler and causes no arguments.

If people aren't sure whether someone is a cuntboy or a flat-chested female can't we just tag it with ambiguous gender then?

Cuntboy doesn't get tagged as futanari on Danbooru, or anywhere.

Dickgirl isn't hard to tag, at all.
Breast? Check.
Penis? Check.
Vagina? Don't see one.
Dickgirl.

Halite said:
Cuntboy doesn't get tagged as futanari on Danbooru, or anywhere.

Dickgirl isn't hard to tag, at all.
Breast? Check.
Penis? Check.
Vagina? Don't see one.
Dickgirl.

What about every bloody MLP image that has a typical female character with a penis? They nearly all have the tag Dickgirl, even though they dont have breasts...

Are all of these tagged improperly? If they are, I have no problem taking an hour or 6 (There are a lot of them....) and re-tagging these. Before I do that though, I would want an admin to know before hand because I am going to be marked for tag warring by probably several people.

_Waffles_ said:
What about every bloody MLP image that has a typical female character with a penis? They nearly all have the tag Dickgirl, even though they dont have breasts...

Are all of these tagged improperly? If they are, I have no problem taking an hour or 6 (There are a lot of them....) and re-tagging these. Before I do that though, I would want an admin to know before hand because I am going to be marked for tag warring by probably several people.

You have to learn to ignore MLP.
The bad tagging there has admin consent pretty much.
I've made that argument 3 or 4 times, and nothing changes.
Just blacklist MLP, ignore the bad tagging of it because getting upset doesn't help anything.

Halite said:
You have to learn to ignore MLP.
The bad tagging there has admin consent pretty much.
I've made that argument 3 or 4 times, and nothing changes.
Just blacklist MLP, ignore the bad tagging of it because getting upset doesn't help anything.

I am annoyed, but not upset.

I figured that an admin would have stuck their head in and mentioned something right now. But even they are staying away.

How can we expect uploaders and new users to tag properly when the people doing it for a few years still can not create a definite answer to what to do in this large and broad problem?

Can you guys link to any examples of this instead of just repeating over and over that it's a problem? The only examples I've seen linked that were said to be problematic was just 2 posts at the start of this thread.

A quick perusal of "mlp dickgirl" for me seems to display pretty much exactly what I'd expect to find, with maybe one or two posts per page (160 posts) that are kind of questionable. Has someone been cleaning these up since this thread started?