bobcat has 59 and lynx has 600

Are they the same? different?

SnowWolf said:
bobcat has 59 and lynx has 600

Are they the same? different?

Bobcats are indeed different then lynxes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobcat

yes, but can you, confidently, look at a *drawing* of one and tell them apart? :3

Bobcats ARE Lynxes- Check your links, Celestia. They're one of the four Lynx species. Differentiating between any of them, though, is nigh impossible (other than the Eurasian Lynx). I say alias bobcat to Lynx.

123easy said:
Bobcats ARE Lynxes- Check your links, Celestia. They're one of the four Lynx species. Differentiating between any of them, though, is nigh impossible (other than the Eurasian Lynx). I say alias bobcat to Lynx.

Aye, a lynx is not just one creature, just as "jaguar" is actually a genus containing four primary species. Either have "bobcat" imply "lynx" for correctness, or else alias it for simplicity of tagging. I vote the latter, really. They are indeed very similar.

Alright. Bobcat -> Lynx, after I had a look through and releized that both had all range of critters tagged including some things that i'd SWEAR are tigers but okay.

Here's one.. we have iberian_lynx as a tag with about a dozen images ... alias or imply?

I never knew.
I'm a terrible furry...

Oh for heaven's sake.

Use an implication by all means, from bobcat to lynx. But please not an alias. I'd prefer you do neither.

They *can* be told apart by experts. The fact that most are not expert or the art is sometimes difficult to interpret is not something we should be representing in the tag alias/implication rat-maze.

It's useful to be able to tag a kitty as a bobcat if a) the image is a modelsheet explicitly stating the critter is a bobcat in the text b) you took the effort to be verifiable and the source says its a bobcat c) it's obviously a bobcat - next to a big lynx for size comparison say so you tag what you see. That's three reasons for not aliasing.

Please also do not alias canada lynx or eurasian lynx or iberian lynx to lynx. But implications are fine here.

I'd prefer you do neither because animal taxonomy is not something that should be represented by the tag mappings. Even the experts disagree and change their consensus over time.

We never agreed on the be verifiable ruling. Anomynous, you are not a moderator, do not act like you are.

Riversyde said:
We never agreed on the be verifiable ruling. Anomynous, you are not a moderator, do not act like you are.

It was merely a suggestion, and I think a good one. Should we not permit easier external verifiability of the metadata expressed in tags, such as it is with a folksonomy?

Anomynous said:
It was merely a suggestion, and I think a good one. Should we not permit easier external verifiability of the metadata expressed in tags, such as it is with a folksonomy?

Sure, but the community can work out a solution together.

Anomynous said:
They *can* be told apart by experts.

Absolutly :D I totally agree that they're all different species, and can be told apart by looking at them if you know what you're looking for. I can clearly see the visual variations, especially in regards to coat markings and generalized builds.

The fact that most are not expert or the art is sometimes difficult to interpret is not something we should be representing in the tag alias/implication rat-maze.

Expert does not enter into it. The art is *commonly* difficult to interpret:

For example:

These were tagged 'bobcat' and not 'lynx':
post #71738 post #71737 post #71728 post #139418 post #139410 post #137034

these were tagged 'lynx' and 'bobcat':
post #66632 post #66627 post #66626

several of those are not colored, have completly bizarre patterns (spots AND stripes? black(or white) with strange white(or black) spotches?) or coloration (black-on-black, purple)... and even the ones that are more accurately colored (as post #137034 is) how do you tell? She could be a densely spotted eurasian lynx, she could be an iberian lynx or she could be a bobcat. Few artists put enough detail into their colorations to make it abundantly clear.

The "defining traits" of a bobct/lynx are short tail, big tufted ears. and not even THOSE are a guarentee: post #142993 post #134470 For every one that is relatively 'clear' ( post #133025 or post 110924 which looks like a canada lynx) there are a dozen like post #126337 which make me go "wait, is that a --oh, she foes have a short tail, and itty bitty ear tufts..

I think 95% of the time, people are tagging one word or another because it's what they think of first, rather then any species accuracy. what species is post #104096 anyway?

It's useful to be able to tag a kitty as a bobcat if a) the image is a modelsheet explicitly stating the critter is a bobcat in the text

true.

b) you took the effort to be verifiable and the source says its a bobcat

I could draw a wolf, and say its' a bobcat. That doesn't mean that people who want bobcat pictures will want to see it.

c) it's obviously a bobcat - next to a big lynx for size comparison say so you tag what you see.

or it could be a cub, or one of them could be a runt, or a 'giant'

however...

bobcat - 71-100cm long, 51-61cm at the shoulder, ranging from 13-30 pounds.
canada lynx - 80-103cm, 48-56cm at shoulder, 18-24lbs.
iberian lynx - 85-110cm, 60-70cm at shoulder, average weight is 28 for a male, 21 for female.
eurasian lynx - 80-129cm, 70cm at shoulder, 39-66 lbs.

so, generally, most of them are about the same size, and outside of the eurasian lynx, you could draw them all at the same size and they'd all be within normal sizes. The Eurasian would be a little runty.

but aside from THAT, lynx feral currently displays 14 images, and the 'feral' critter isn't always the lynx.

That's three reasons for not aliasing.

Please also do not alias canada lynx or eurasian lynx or iberian lynx to lynx. But implications are fine here.

>_<

I'll tell you what. If **YOU** want to... I will unalias bobcat from lynx, and YOU can go through lynx and determine which ones are actually bobcats and which are canada lynx, and which are eurasian and which are iberian, and tag them all appropriately.

I'd prefer you do neither because animal taxonomy is not something that should be represented by the tag mappings. Even the experts disagree and change their consensus over time.

This isn't about taxonomy, this is about visuals. Tufted ears, cheek ruff, short tail = lynx/bobcat. Even if it's purple and blue. The experts suddenly deciding that a eurasian lynx is actually a canine, or is more closely related to a panda bear isn't going to change what it looks like.

Just like we don't tag different horse species, breeds, colorations as a general rules. we tag 'horse'

But yeah. There's my thoughts.

You want separate tags, you can have them as long as you do the work.

canada and eurasian currently don't have any pictures put in them, there are no implications or alias involved, they just have not been tagged on any images.

So go through, tag all of the lynx pictures with the right species, where you can, I'll set up implications so they can all implicate lynx... because that's ALL what they look like and that way anyone who wants tufted ears and bob tails can find them with one tag rather then 4.

I'm not taking the alias away yet, though, because I don't know if you want to do this or not. so for now, tag 'em lynx_rufus as is taxonomically proper and we'll get 'em all straightened out in the next day or two.

sound good?

While you may be able to tell a difference in reallife between a bobcat and lynx; often drawers will say "I drew a bobcat!", While actual comparison to RL would make you believe they drew a lynx instead"

And I'm sure if you browse thru the lynx pics, you'd find a few that would be more bobcat looking.

While its a tough call, aliases would be better, as its the same rule horses follow.

While bobcats and lynxes are separate species, they do belong to the same genus, which, coincidentally, happens to be the Lynx genus. There are four different species belonging to this group -- three of which share the family name: the Eurasian lynx, the Spanish (or Iberian) lynx and the Canadian lynx. The fourth member, the most common cat native to North America, is the previously mentioned bobcat.

Anomynous said:
Oh for heaven's sake.

Use an implication by all means, from bobcat to lynx. But please not an alias. I'd prefer you do neither.

They *can* be told apart by experts. The fact that most are not expert or the art is sometimes difficult to interpret is not something we should be representing in the tag alias/implication rat-maze.

It's useful to be able to tag a kitty as a bobcat if a) the image is a modelsheet explicitly stating the critter is a bobcat in the text b) you took the effort to be verifiable and the source says its a bobcat c) it's obviously a bobcat - next to a big lynx for size comparison say so you tag what you see. That's three reasons for not aliasing.

Please also do not alias canada lynx or eurasian lynx or iberian lynx to lynx. But implications are fine here.

I'd prefer you do neither because animal taxonomy is not something that should be represented by the tag mappings. Even the experts disagree and change their consensus over time.

I agree in principle. However, one must find the balance between using words correctly and precisely, and using them in a manner that makes it easy for the average user to find the images they want, or blacklist the images they don't want, and to tag with simplicity. You're right, taxonomy is a system that has gotten too big for its britches and is in desperate need of an overhaul. If even the experts disagree, then it is up to us to come to a consensus about what is best for our purposes on this site. An implication to lynx is fine, in my mind, but an alias to lynx is also fine too. It has the merit of being simple.

The plain and simple "We use horse instead of all the different breeds" concept is exactly what needs to be used. with fetishes and other similar things where there IS a big difference between one thing and another, you have to get into the nitty gritty sometimes. But when it comes to what it is- species does just fine on its own.