The demerits are handed out swiftly. What about the kudos?

Positive records are for doing exceptionally well around the site. As far as I know, negs can only be removed if they were handed out in error, I think.

Well, I think the negs can be removed if an admin removes it. But besides being given one in error, what else specifically would cause a negative to be removed from your record?

Nothing really. Depending on what you did wrong, they may remove them after a while if you ask, but other than that, nothing.

Negatives are only removed if an admin removes them (a rare case in my experience). Positives are difficult to get and basically mean helping the site in such an obvious way that an admin notices it.

ExplosiveBlaziken said:
Negatives are only removed if an admin removes them (a rare case in my experience). Positives are difficult to get and basically mean helping the site in such an obvious way that an admin notices it.

After looking at the record list for all users
http://e621.net/user_record/index?page=1
Admins should give out some more positives, but then again who deserves it?

slyroon said:
After looking at the record list for all users
http://e621.net/user_record/index?page=1
Admins should give out some more positives, but then again who deserves it?

Looks like the most positives have been handed out for tag editing.
Alrighty then…

Relevant bits of info:
forum #14278
forum #4913

Acolyte said:
Looks like the most positives have been handed out for tag editing.
Alrighty then…

Yeah. Negatives won't be removed so much as your total user score can be increased from positive marks, but the negative will still be on your record.

slyroon said:
After looking at the record list for all users
http://e621.net/user_record/index?page=1
Admins should give out some more positives, but then again who deserves it?

Couldn't agree more.
The more often positive marks are handed out, the more likely people will feel motivated to help out. Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, but for people who are invested in the site, it can be a point of pride. It's my understanding that other booru-type sites hand out marks for certain upload thresholds. But then again, I doubt many people really care, as user scores aren't yet tied to anything.
Idk, if people felt more appreciated, maybe they would endeavor to invest themselves in making it a better site.
My two cents.

l'm just glad to have a non-outstanding 0 again.

Actini said:
l'm just glad to have a non-outstanding 0 again.

Me too.

ippiki_ookami said:
Idk, if people felt more appreciated, maybe they would endeavor to invest themselves in making it a better site.

Pff, only a select few really care about the site. If any other user cared, they would have spoken up already.
I dunno what we could do to further spread the message that help is very much appreciated.

Riversyde said:
Pff, only a select few really care about the site. If any other user cared, they would have spoken up already.
I dunno what we could do to further spread the message that help is very much appreciated.

Maybe another Bat Week?

Ultima_Weapon said:
Maybe another Bat Week?

Maybe. I was considering something similar a while ago myself.

It would be nice to get these two marks off my record from 11 months ago. If my fucking ISP would cooperate I'd be glad to help, just point me where. I want to get rid of this -2 from so long ago.

Getting a new account

I'd like to get rid of my -1 from over 2 years ago. I had no idea about resizing images when I first started here, so I couldn't see the little Sexyfur label at the very bottom of the picture I uploaded.

An appeal process after a year or something if the person has gotten better wouldn't be a bad idea. Then again, those ratings don't mean anything yet on the site :P

CamKitty said:
An appeal process after a year or something if the person has gotten better wouldn't be a bad idea.

A year is a bit long. More like six months.

CamKitty said:
Then again, those ratings don't mean anything yet on the site :P

Negative ratings do have a meaning, positive ones, not so much.

Ultima_Weapon said:
I'd like to get rid of my -1 from over 2 years ago. I had no idea about resizing images when I first started here, so I couldn't see the little Sexyfur label at the very bottom of the picture I uploaded.

Sure, I'll wipe that off for you.

ExplosiveBlaziken said:
It would be nice to get these two marks off my record from 11 months ago. If my fucking ISP would cooperate I'd be glad to help, just point me where. I want to get rid of this -2 from so long ago.

Read deejay's post. forum #4913

Riversyde said:
Pff, only a select few really care about the site. If any other user cared, they would have spoken up already.
I dunno what we could do to further spread the message that help is very much appreciated.

If you approach the matter with the preconception that most users don't care, then that's probably part of the problem. I mean, why then would you put any effort into an incentive system if that's truly what you believe?

It's not that they don't care. I think the bulk of users come here, get a quick fix, maybe make a few comments, then move along. Unless the whole reward/demerit system is made more prominent, many of them won't know it exists.

That is, until they get a reprimand for something.

Thanks for the wipe.

Acolyte said:
If you approach the matter with the preconception that most users don't care, then that's probably part of the problem. I mean, why then would you put any effort into an incentive system if that's truly what you believe?

This

I had one negative removal for apologizing to someone whom I'd argued with once...but I think I was a very rare exception. :/

Acolyte said:
If you approach the matter with the preconception that most users don't care, then that's probably part of the problem. I mean, why then would you put any effort into an incentive system if that's truly what you believe?

Because it was there? The problem with users not caring about the site is, plainly, that users don't care about the site.
I would have to compare the tag records from the last Bat Week to a regular week to see if that statement holds true. Which I will do in the next few days.

Aurali told me, you gotta be good for six months after recieving the negative mark

Riversyde said:
Because it was there? The problem with users not caring about the site is, plainly, that users don't care about the site.
I would have to compare the tag records from the last Bat Week to a regular week to see if that statement holds true. Which I will do in the next few days.

I disagree. If you want users to demonstrate that they care, you really should give them a clear and obvious pathway to express it.

I mentioned that most users probably come here for a quick pic fix, a little interaction, then they're gone. Many probably don't root around in the forums, wiki, IRC or what have you. That's not because they don't care. It's just that there's no clear reason for why anyone should turn away from the highly desirable smut to visit any other aspects of the site.

When it come down to it, it's the site owner's responsibility to create interest in their online entity. Give out compliments. Create contests. Present causes. Hold conventions or conferences.

Right now, the most visible interaction on the site between the users and the admins is that line across a user name to show who's been banned and why. There's no comparably visible opposite, showing who's been rewarded and why. Considering that, it's a bit unfair to state that users here don't care about the site.

I think it's the site's own fault, at least partially, in creating an uncaring atmosphere.

Acolyte said:
I disagree. If you want users to demonstrate that they care, you really should give them a clear and obvious pathway to express it.

Acolyte said:
I think it's the site's own fault, at least partially, in creating an uncaring atmosphere.

Sorry, but that's complete bullshit. It's the users themselves who create an uncaring atmosphere on this site. If you visit this site and you enjoy using it, then you should care about it. If you don't care about the site, then why are you wasting time here? It seems as though a lot of users just upload art, whether a repost or not, and don't even bother tagging it. And we have people who clutter images with random cluttertags that aren't needed. It's retarded. You should keep the site that you like using tidy and functional.

Ultima_Weapon said:
Sorry, but that's complete bullshit. It's the users themselves who create an uncaring atmosphere on this site. If you visit this site and you enjoy using it, then you should care about it. If you don't care about the site, then why are you wasting time here? It seems as though a lot of users just upload art, whether a repost or not, and don't even bother tagging it. And we have people who clutter images with random cluttertags that aren't needed. It's retarded. You should keep the site that you like using tidy and functional.

That's your yardstick for measuring the amount of "care" here? The quality of images uploaded and tagging?

What about users that don't know what they've uploaded is a repost? What about users that don't speak english well, and therefore don't tag well?

Whenever you have an open site that allows uploading and commenting, this sort of thing is par for the course. It's not an adequate gauge for determining the user base's level of concern for the site.

Acolyte said:
That's your yardstick for measuring the amount of "care" here? The quality of images uploaded and tagging?

What about users that don't know what they've uploaded is a repost? What about users that don't speak english well, and therefore don't tag well?

Whenever you have an open site that allows uploading and commenting, this sort of thing is par for the course. It's not an adequate gauge for determining the user base's level of concern for the site.

That's circumstantial. This is an english site, so most of the populace here speaks english, and every site has new people that need a few days to learn the rules. We obviously aren't talking about them. We're talking about people who know what to do but refuse to make an effort to do it.

Ultima_Weapon said:
That's circumstantial. This is an english site, so most of the populace here speaks english, and every site has new people that need a few days to leanr the rules. We obviously aren't talking about them. We're talking about people who know what to do but refuse to make an effort to do it.

Circumstance has to be factored into the equation. This is an english site, but the content of appeal is visual, not verbal. It can and does attract people from around the world, and you know that.

And when people join a site like this, some will take time to learn the rules, some will not. Once again, this is par for the course for a site like this. It's to be expected. You can't open a forum to potentially millions of people, and expect them all to do the same thing.

And how do you know who we're talking about? How do you know they absolutely refuse to learn the rules? You're not in their homes, in their heads. Do they understand the rules? Do they think they're following the rules, but made an error? Neither you or I can speak for them as to why they do what they do.

Acolyte said:
Circumstance has to be factored into the equation. This is an english site, but the content of appeal is visual, not verbal. It can and does attract people from around the world, and you know that.

That's the minority, and we're talking about the average user.

Acolyte said:
And when people join a site like this, some will take time to learn the rules, some will not. Once again, this is par for the course for a site like this. It's to be expected. You can't open a forum to potentially millions of people, and expect them all to do the same thing.

You can expect them to do the same thing if it isn't to complicated, which this site isn't. If you have to type in a name and password every time to log into a website, you'd expect to not find someone who just couldn't wrap their head around a simple task.

Acolyte said:
And how do you know who we're talking about? How do you know they absolutely refuse to learn the rules? You're not in their homes, in their heads. Do they understand the rules? Do they think they're following the rules, but made an error? Neither you or I can speak for them as to why they do what they do.

I know that they don't refuse to learn the rules; they learn the rules since they aren't hard, but just don't care, hence the problem. We aren't talking about honest errors, we're talking about people who just don't give a fuck because they're either too lazy to take the extra few seconds to do whatever, or they do it on purpose for whatever purpose. Remember what I said: i'm not talking about noobs or honest mistakes, i'm talking about people who have obviously been here long enough to know better, who do know better, but just don't care.

Ultima, you keep speaking with certainty about what users can and cannot do, and what they should be able to do. You say you KNOW that they can learn the rules but refuse to do so.

I'm saying that it is impossible for you to KNOW this, with certainty. Product and website developers will tell you that know matter how intuitive they believe the operation of their product of site to be, the only thing that will reveal ease-of-use is testing.

Unless you have hard data from the users of this site as to whether they can find, understand and effectively implement the rules posted here, you cannot say that you KNOW what anyone can do.

And unless you have the demographics in hand, you do not know the percentage of english-speaking users to non-english speaking users. You are basing both of your views here on an assumption.

As far as people caring about the site, human beings are who they are. I refuse to believe that for some strange reason, e621 only attracts some sort of aberrant, uncaring mutant breed of humanity.

They do care, about things they care about. It is up to the site creators and admins to turn this site into something they care about, and taking the attitude that "they don't give a fuck" is a really bad way to start.

Here's my point, in case.

I come here many, many times over the course of a day. Sometimes it's even the first site I visit (he says somewhat shamefully.)

I comment, upload every now and then, edit an occasional tag or two. Probably a bit better than a average user, as I visit the forums and wiki on occasion.

With that said, what the hell was "bat week?" Was it a contest? Why wasn't "Welcome to e621's BAT WEEK" one of the first things I saw on the home page? Why didn't I get an email notice, like a lot of other sites do when they have weekly specials?

If it was a contest, did someone win? Do they get any recognition? I care enough about this site to upload halfway decent stuff, to alter my behavior when I'm told, and yet I knew nothing about "bat week." Is that my fault?

Riversyde insulted the users here when stating that they don't care. Besides presenting content (mostly uploaded by the users who don't care) the site really has not done much to elicit caring on the part of the users.

Acolyte said:
Stuff

Dude, i've been here long enough to see how shit goes down with people, although it is a little better now than right before the ownership change.

I get annoyed when I have to keep repeating myself. Why do you continue to say "you KNOW that they can learn the rules but refuse to do so", when i've stated multiple times that i'm only talking about people who know the rules, but just don't care? I'm right in assuming that this site caters to mostly english speakers because as far as I know: this site is in english, and is hosted in America. If you went to a site that was in japanese and the url ended with .jp, would you expect the users to be mostly english, or japanese? And I don't need demographics for that. I'm not trying to sound too assholish, but some things are just common sense. If I go to another country and use their internet, i'm sure it'll generally be in that country's language.

Acolyte said:
As far as people caring about the site, human beings are who they are. I refuse to believe that for some strange reason, e621 only attracts some sort of aberrant, uncaring mutant breed of humanity.

You'd be suprised.

Acolyte said:
They do care, about things they care about. It is up to the site creators and admins to turn this site into something they care about, and taking the attitude that "they don't give a fuck" is a really bad way to start.

The admins create and run the site, while the users contribute to it. The admins obviously care about the site or they wouldn't have made it, but it's not their job to tag every image users upload, and to make sure that users aren't shitting up in the comments. The same way the people make the government, the people make the site, otherwise, the admins could just keep the site private to themselves. Users should be productive and not just toss poop around, otherwise, what's the point of even having a functional site if people are just going to smear stool on everything.

And Bat Week is when exceptional users are given account promotions for their work contributing to the site. God damn you for making me type so much. If my fingers wear out, i'm stealing yours.

My apologies for making you type. If I give you my fingers, you're halving my enjoyment of the site. No more about that.

As far as my statement about knowing due to demographics: you and Riversyde did not make any distinction between some users and users in general when you both said users don't care. You made a generalization about the "users" of the site. You only mention later that you're talking about "certain" users. But once again, I'm going to say that even for that small group, how do you know that they "know the rules but don't care?" Have you corresponded with them all and have they told you "yeah, I know I'm not supposed to do that but I don't care?"

I'm stating that even for the small group you're speaking of, unless you really know what's going on in their heads, you simply can't say what someone else "knows" or not. That's why that sort of testimony is inadmissible in court. It is simply not possible for one person to state what another person "knows."

And I'm sure that most of the people here are english speakers. But what percentage of the people who mess up the tags are NOT english speakers? Does anyone take into account that there may be other reasons why people don't tag correctly, or all they all just considered to be assholes right off the bat?

My core argument is this. The people here are ordinary humans. Give them something to invest their emotion into, and you'll see that they care. If you don't do that, it is unfair to then call them uncaring. Put up an image of an abused puppy and ask for users willing to adopt. You'll see just how many of them care.

You and I have both been here about the same amount of time. You know that the basic operation of the site hasn't changed much. Yet all around the 'net, there are tools and methods developed to get users more invested in a website. From mobile apps to social sharing and more. But this site hasn't utilized any of the readily available tools that any webmaster can easily implement to get users more "invested."

You say the admins care about the site. But the site is the users. If you want a successful site with invested users, find a better way to engage the good users and manage the bad ones.

Calling your user base uncaring in public would be suicidal if this were a business. You're letting a loud bad minority of users color your opinion of the decent but silent majority.

Oh, and don't you think it would have been great incentive to the user base for everyone to know about "bat week?"

A lot of users would want promotions too. Positive reinforcement works better to change behavior than negative.

As long as i've been here, we've only had Bat Week once, and it was announced in the forums then. We just haven't had one in a while.

I'm pretty sure I did mention who I was talking about, Mr. Acolyte, sir.

Riversyde said:
Pff, only a select few really care about the site. If any other user cared, they would have spoken up already.

If you get a user who plainly refuses to change their tagging habit after one demerit and a week-long ban, it's obvious they never will.
Other evidence I have is related to the mindset of users. http://e621.net/comment/search?query=porn%20site
The general idea I get is "Ew, a dirty smutty porn site... no way I would help out tagging anything there"
This is why I hate users who think like this: We are not a porn site. We do not only allow porn. Yet half who visit think this is a site dedicated to porn. Therefore, they don't care enough to look around to notice that it is not only for porn. We say this enough goddamn times, but it never seems to sink in.

Riversyde, if someone comes here, looks at the posts and sees 95% porn, they are going to think this is primarily a porn site.

You mention that you say all the time that this isn't just a site for porn. Where do you say it? In the forums? The Wiki? You know that most casual users probably don't go deeper than the comments and posts page, right?

It is the responsibility of the webmaster and to a lesser extent, the admins, to make sure that information is placed where it's certain to be seen by everyone, casual and serious user alike. You can't just expect users to dig for what you want them to know, then call them uncaring if they don't do it.

I said "WE" say it. The users who care. I, myself, have not said it in a while.
And the comments and posts appear for but a fleeting moment in the comment and post pages. Then, most likely, they are cast aside and forgotten.
We shouldn't have to keep repeating ourselves as to what is our mission, but it should be made more obvious what kind of content we have, yes. e621's about page should really include this, so we can add it to the news header. Except not many people tend to take notice of it. One seasoned user even said they had no idea it existed.

I do believe, friends, that I have just added the most excellent missionly statement.
help:home
Furry friends! Party time! Excellent!
(short, powerful guitar lick)

Riversyde said:
I do believe, friends, that I have just added the most excellent missionly statement.
help:home
Furry friends! Party time! Excellent!
(short, powerful guitar lick)

Er...what about all the non animal/anthro-related artwork?

ippiki_ookami said:
Er...what about all the non animal/anthro-related artwork?

You know that we do with that. Irrelevant stuff is fair game for deletion. If people want to post it, that's all well and good, but it'll probably get deleted. It's not an "iron fist" statement, but it wil cut down on the amount of irrelevant posts.

Riversyde said:
We shouldn't have to keep repeating ourselves as to what is our mission, but it should be made more obvious what kind of content we have, yes. e621's about page should really include this, so we can add it to the news header. Except not many people tend to take notice of it. One seasoned user even said they had no idea it existed.

May I suggest that you guys consider moving the news header? Placing the banner between the first and second row of posts on the post page would increase it's visibility.

Acolyte said:
May I suggest that you guys consider moving the news header? Placing the banner between the first and second row of posts on the post page would increase it's visibility.

It would be more in the way than anything. I would have suggested differing colours, so it would stand out from the rest of the page more.

I think the banner's right where it needs to be.

Long story short, negative marks are NEVER removed from your account. You can earn Positive marks to negate the negative marks, but thats about it.

Princess_Celestia said:
Long story short, negative marks are NEVER removed from your account. You can earn Positive marks to negate the negative marks, but thats about it.

Disregard this, I was wrong.

Riversyde said:
It would be more in the way than anything. I would have suggested differing colours, so it would stand out from the rest of the page more.

Exactly. The banner would be in the way, and difficult to overlook. The images on the site are very compelling. It's not easy to draw a user away from the pretty thumbnails to look at something else. You need an interruption.

ippiki_ookami said:
I think the banner's right where it needs to be.

Not if, as Riversyde said, a long-term user didn't even know it was there. I know site users may not like it, but webmasters need to think about the bottom line sometimes. A bit of visual inconvenience in exchange for accessing all this content is a fair trade.

Acolyte said:
Exactly. The banner would be in the way, and difficult to overlook. The images on the site are very compelling. It's not easy to draw a user away from the pretty thumbnails to look at something else. You need an interruption.

Which is why I suggested the colour change? That would be easier to do than change the position of the news box.

We're not putting the news between the thumbnails, that would just look messy and unprofessional. I'll play around with colors though.

Riversyde said:
Which is why I suggested the colour change? That would be easier to do than change the position of the news box.

tony311 said:
We're not putting the news between the thumbnails, that would just look messy and unprofessional. I'll play around with colors though.

Web content providers will tell you it's getting more difficult to get eyes where you'd like them to go on your website. You guys don't have sidebars for ads and notices and people have become jaded to small top-of-page banners, regardless of color.

Of course it's your call, but placing notices and ads in between content is often done. It can be done in a way that is neither messy nor unprofessional in appearance.

Make it dark red or yellow, that'll get attention.

Percy101 said:
Make it dark red or yellow, that'll get attention.

For a while. Until people get used to the color.

Acolyte said:
For a while. Until people get used to the color.

Make it have a background that changes to a random color every 10 milliseconds.

trfg7xz2oxps said:
Make it have a background that changes to a random color every 10 milliseconds.

Just thinking about that gives me a migraine.

trfg7xz2oxps said:
Make it have a background that changes to a random color every 10 milliseconds.

You have clearly forgotten about our epileptic users...

Riversyde said:
You have clearly forgotten about our epileptic users...

Or remembered quite well....

RedOctober said:
Or remembered quite well....

Thank you

trfg7xz2oxps said:
Make it have a background that changes to a random color every 10 milliseconds.

D: I don't like instant death thanks.

cookiekangaroo said:
D: I don't like instant death thanks.

Same. Worst status effect ever, especially when there's no status-resistance for it.

Its easy to get negative points, its nearly impossible to get positive points :< I have done hard work with tagging female solo pics (and other pics too) and i hope that i get some positive points as reward to remove those negatives... and it feels like kinda useless work, only thing what i can get from that shit is that i don't have to see female solo pics anymore... So i ques that fixing tags doesn't help to get any positive points. It looks actually bit like that only more-important-than-basic-users can get positive points <__>

Mutisija said:
Its easy to get negative points, its nearly impossible to get positive points :< I have done hard work with tagging female solo pics (and other pics too) and i hope that i get some positive points as reward to remove those negatives... and it feels like kinda useless work, only thing what i can get from that shit is that i don't have to see female solo pics anymore... So i ques that fixing tags doesn't help to get any positive points. It looks actually bit like that only more-important-than-basic-users can get positive points <__>

You don't get positive points by asking for them. As to why it would even matter that much, considering they're not really tied to anything is beyond me. You should be working to make the site a better place, not just for a little bit of green text on your profile.

...but, it does seem like you've done enough good tagging work recently to counteract those negative marks. I'll wipe them for you.

I wonder how people get Contributor status around here? I'm used to Danbooru's ways of having to be a really good tagger, uploader, and a good help to the site, but I never heard it discussed here.

Ultima_Weapon said:
I wonder how people get Contributor status around here? I'm used to Danbooru's ways of having to be a really good tagger, uploader, and a good help to the site, but I never heard it discussed here.

No clue.

Ultima_Weapon said:
I wonder how people get Contributor status around here? I'm used to Danbooru's ways of having to be a really good tagger, uploader, and a good help to the site, but I never heard it discussed here.

I had it once by asking nicely and helping out, but it vanished and I've never been able to get it back.

Ultima_Weapon said:
I wonder how people get Contributor status around here? I'm used to Danbooru's ways of having to be a really good tagger, uploader, and a good help to the site, but I never heard it discussed here.

I think we just give them out willy-nilly :V
I can't figure out any logical explanation either.

Maybe we could just use Danbooru's way. Seems pretty clear.

ExplosiveBlaziken said:
I had it once by asking nicely and helping out, but it vanished and I've never been able to get it back.

Vanished? Did you do something wrong to get demoted?

Ultima_Weapon said:
Vanished? Did you do something wrong to get demoted?

It was Privileged, not Contributor, derp. But yeah, it got overturned later and nobody seems willing to restore it, so I basically stopped caring.

ExplosiveBlaziken said:
It was Privileged, not Contributor, derp. But yeah, it got overturned later and nobody seems willing to restore it, so I basically stopped caring.

Maybe if you work like you did when you had it, we could work something out.

I'm proud of my priveleged status.

I'm not sure why.

I'm also disappointed that no one has said "sexual favors" in response to the thread title yet.

KloH0und said:
I'm proud of my priveleged status.

I'm not sure why.

I'm also disappointed that no one has said "sexual favors" in response to the thread title yet.

If you earned you priv status then you should be, and no one's said sexual favors because they aren't sure if trolling, or truthing.

Don't know when I got my privileged status, don't really care. Kinda like my blank record, though it shouldn't make a bit of difference in a perfect world where people do nice things because they're nice, but eh.

Alternate proposal: give more marks, but have marks publicly expire (mods still get to see mark history, users get to see their own mark history). That way people have to actively work to keep their good status.

Riversyde said:
...but, it does seem like you've done enough good tagging work recently to counteract those negative marks. I'll wipe them for you.

YAY! Thanks so much ^^

I do believe that positive marks should be handed out at least a little more often, even if not much moreso. They're just far too rare. Or at least give out some positive Neutral notes to let a user know they're on the right track.