I'm seriously trying to wrap my brain around why furries are so into herms recently. i've understood why they like giant tube cocks and ridonculus boob sizes, but why herms? is it because furries are bi, and can't make up their minds? Or is it something a straight furry can't understand? I'm being super serious here, WHY are herms so popular, if you enjoy them, please do tell me why you, in specific, prefer herms over a single gender furry.

I think it's exotic. As a bisexual person, I usually prefer single gender over herms, but there are times (depending on the picture) where the exotic nature of a mixed gender can be an exciting concept.

I also think that furry porn, by nature, introduces a sort of "anything goes" mindset that makes that kind of thing more common.

I also don't think being bisexual means I can't make up my mind, I just think it means I'm attracted to both sexes equally (albiet differently).

It's a pretty basic thing for me. I like both kinds of genitals and pretty much all sex acts they can be used for. This would be due to my primary turn-on being sex and pleasure themselves, with the tertiary bits of the various body parts and fluids involved. I also happen to like the feminine form. By contrast, um... I just don't find masculinity or most males particularly attractive. The percentage of the male population I'd consider attractive is <i>easily</i> under 5%, probably around 1% - 2%.

So...
Feminine body + female sex organs + male sex organs == Everything I could want, more or less.

Lastly, way to generalize and stereotype all furries as a homogeneous group throughout your <i>entire post</i> except the last sentence.

I can't even outline why I'm gay in the real world, let alone my crazy attractions to animal people. But it could be due to their inherent sexualisation. A herm NEEDS to be at least sexually suggestive, or else shi'll be assumed to be just female.

Because the penis is a symbol of domination, and some straight furries, while not being attracted by a male body, like the idea of being dominated.
The same idea goes for female furries who impersonate themselves as herms in order to metaphorically dominate males.
Same for gays who like cuntboys : while being attracted by male body, the penis is an offense for them (and that's why you often see cuntboy is a dominated position).

In before "Freud's outdated".

The penis is an offense for gays? I've never heard anyone say that before. I'd love to meet a guy who actually thinks that.

Kald said:
for gays who like cuntboys

Also, all this is meant to work on a subconscious level.

Kald said:
[words words words]

In before "Freud's outdated".

Personally I'm quite glad I had a rather objective upbringing.

Also, you entirely forgot to give Freudian reasoning for males who personify themselves as hermaphrodites (which, if I'm not mistaken, account for somewhere from 75% - 95% of people who have a herm 'sona)... Perhaps something about reclaiming their mothers' breasts?

I never did like Freud. I think there's a lot of potential "maybe that's what it is" theories, but when it comes down to it it just depends on the person, and the reason each person feels the way they do is extremely difficult to determine. People have wildly different genetics and upbringings.

For example I like both gender's sex organs but I don't think it has much to do with domination and submission. I like the male body and the female body, but I don't like femboys or butch women. I like dickgirls more than cuntboys. You could try to explain each fetish and preference individually, but when you consider that each person could have any combination of them the amount of variables defies any kind of psychological equation.

When it comes down to it, we have two genders, each with their own parts and qualities, so people are bound to mix different aspects of them, for their own reasons.

it could be that they don't like the idea of sticking it in someone elses anus, but still want to be covered in their cum. it also depends if they want to be a herm, or just fuck a herm. i mean i think every guy ,if there were no repercussions , would agree to be turned female for a day. so maybe they want to have a female body, but don't want to lose their penis. as for wanting to fuck a herm, they may be narcissistic and straight. they see themselves it the herm, and want to pleasure themselves, while pleasuring themselves, and don't enjoy anal.

these are just random thoughts though.

... some people just like weird things...

Herms are popular because they combine the best parts of males and females into one person.

If you've ever had a threesome, they are fun, but somewhat awkward. You can of course have sex with a transsexual, but most of them are really awkward about using their boyparts. Last MtF transsexual I had sex with was all like, even had like, erection dysfunction from her hormones.

The popularity of herms ultimately comes down to, "more is better," for the same reason that cuntbois tend to be extremely rare by comparison. The same reason that with regards to non-furry porn, MtF transsexual porn is relatively popular, and the amount of FtM transsexual porn that exists can be counted on one hand (Buck Angel and the occasional homemade video).

People simply like more parts. I for one like my FtM boyfriend, even if he does have less parts (Okay technically shi isn't an FtM, shi's genderqueer, but whatever, shi's more boy than girl, so whatever, most people know what an FtM is, I think... gawd sometimes I don't even know what cisgendered people know anymore. That's what happens when you hang around the queer community too much).

acct0283476 said:
Also, you entirely forgot to give Freudian reasoning for males who personify themselves as hermaphrodites (which, if I'm not mistaken, account for somewhere from 75% - 95% of people who have a herm 'sona)... Perhaps something about reclaiming their mothers' breasts?

I can't recall ever meeting a woman who had a herm fursona. But I can think of a lot of males who do. At least for all the ones I met, they were also all crossdressers, but very solidly asserted that they were not transsexuals and like their penis a lot. I think it's an aspect of wanting to play a female, while still retaining their penis. Pretty similar to real life crossdressing.

RlctntFr said:
I like the male body and the female body, but I don't like femboys or butch women. I like dickgirls more than cuntboys. You could try to explain each fetish and preference individually, but when you consider that each person could have any combination of them the amount of variables defies any kind of psychological equation.

I like masculine women, and feminine males, but not more cisgendered individuals. Go figure how it works. I've never really bothered to try and make sense about it.

I just like the idea of a girl having a penis :/
Not to say I'm not attracted to regular females.

personally, for me, a penis in the picture just kinda ruins it for me, so that's why herms just go unwanted, although sometimes a picture will be just so good, but bam it's a tarp.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
personally, for me, a penis in the picture just kinda ruins it for me, so that's why herms just go unwanted, although sometimes a picture will be just so good, but bam it's a tarp.

thats what i think!! =o
but as long as their is one female in the picture, im ok =)

fartpaw_firekidney said:
personally, for me, a penis in the picture just kinda ruins it for me, so that's why herms just go unwanted, although sometimes a picture will be just so good, but bam it's a tarp.

I've always wondered how this works. I mean, do you only look at solo and lesbian porn or something? 'Cause, otherwise... Penis. Everywhere. Or are you only capable of tuning out entire characters, and not regions thereof?

acct0283476 said:
I've always wondered how this works. I mean, do you only look at solo and lesbian porn or something? 'Cause, otherwise... Penis. Everywhere. Or are you only capable of tuning out entire characters, and not regions thereof?

boobies, bobies do wonder, or, you can move the screen to a position where you cant really see the penis. and yea, lesbian porn = <3

Marbles said:
<snip>

Marbles... I /am/ transgendered... and you confused me! ._.

I hate herms *and boobs* because most I've seen are hyper and it really annoys me when they have breasts/balls/penis so huge that they probably can't move.

Not a fan of dickgirls/futa either, I like my penis on males where they belong.

Cuntboys are kinda cute though, if only for the vagina without breasts.

But I like my dudes, and breasts sometimes ruin pictures for me.

cuntboys are just underage girls imo.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
cuntboys are just underage girls imo.

Flat chests ftw

sonikku said:
Flat chests ftw

sorry sir, i like my boobies around D or DD

What gets me is when you can't even tell whether it's a flat-chested woman or a cuntboy... and people have arguments over it and will only fap to one or the other. If it's to the point where you can't even tell just by looking at it then why does it matter? Just pretend it's the one you want it to be.

RlctntFr said:
What gets me is when you can't even tell whether it's a flat-chested woman or a cuntboy... and people have arguments over it and will only fap to one or the other. If it's to the point where you can't even tell just by looking at it then why does it matter? Just pretend it's the one you want it to be.

Well, I've noticed a lot of furries seem incapable of consciously discerning what the differences are between a masculine and feminine body aside from breasts and stereotypical muscularity... So my guess is they need some third-party 'word of god' because they wouldn't have been able to tell even if it <i>weren't</i> an ambiguous case, and may not even be able to realize that the build <i>is</i> ambiguous...

acct0283476 said:
Well, I've noticed a lot of furries seem incapable of consciously discerning what the differences are between a masculine and feminine body aside from breasts and stereotypical muscularity... So my guess is they need some third-party 'word of god' because they wouldn't have been able to tell even if it <i>weren't</i> an ambiguous case, and may not even be able to realize that the build <i>is</i> ambiguous...

Yeah.. gender lines are so skewed in the fandom you can never tell anymore...

fartpaw_firekidney said:
sorry sir, i like my boobies around D or DD

*ma'am

Eh, everyone has different likes

What gets me is when you can't even tell whether it's a flat-chested woman or a cuntboy...

The way I see it, cuntboys usually lack nipples, while flat-chested females usually have them. Of course, it also depends on the artist.

Well acct, that point is also complicated by the "trap" trend of having males that are so feminine they might as well be females. When you combine that with cuntboys that's when it gets really ambiguous; though the nipple thing sonikku pointed out seems like a good system.

Aurali said:
Marbles... I /am/ transgendered... and you confused me! ._.

Short version?

I'm way too deep into the queer community for my own good, and I haven't had a cisgendered friend in years. I've actually had intercourse with more transsexuals and crossdressers than cisgendered men and women, and my lifemate is the rare and elusive FtM. Except not an FtM, cause shi's bigendered... or genderqueer... Uh, pick a word for today? We shall call hir a pomegranate. Why a pomegranate? Fuck I don't know, shi was the one who came up with the nickname for hir gender. I just go along with it cause shi's delicious. Shi looks hot when shi crossdresses, like you have no idea.

RlctntFr said:
Well acct, that point is also complicated by the "trap" trend of having males that are so feminine they might as well be females.

Yeah... And then you have the artist here and there that almost exclusively draws males and apparently never learned to draw females, so they just slap breasts on and call it good (even worse when they can't draw breasts and just add chest-hemispheres)... And then the ones who draw über-muscular characters and draw draw both/any gender with airplane-wing shoulder width...

End result is that objective physique evaluation wouldn't help much even if you could do it, I suppose.

Marbles said:
We shall call hir a pomegranate.

That is an amazing choice of term. May it last an eternity in its heavenly glory.

<i>[Insert Terry Gilliam animation here]</i>

Marbles said:
Short version?

and my lifemate is the rare and elusive FtM. Except not an FtM, cause shi's bigendered... or genderqueer... Uh, pick a word for today?

Androgynous? My um... previous owner was also like that :)

Naw. Androgynous is more like being neither male nor female (or is it both at the same time?). Shi's more like both male and female alternatively, rarely both at the same time.

Probably bigendered is the correct term. Then again, shi's sometimes both at the same time, so wouldn't that be trigender? But who the fuck says trigender? Genderqueer is really probably the best term, just cause it's catch-all.

TL;DR: Transgenderism is fucking confusing.

Marbles said:
Naw. Androgynous is more like being neither male nor female. Shi's more like both male and female alternatively, rarely both at the same time..

Androgyny is the mixing of both gender traits :) Not the lack of.

Derp. Uh, what's the one for lack of then?

EDIT: Searching wikipedia for a moment has lead me to this. I'm going to go with this one for my lifemate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_fluid

Goddamn transgendered people coming up with new words all the time because the old words aren't good enough for them :P

Marbles said:
TL;DR: Transgenderism is fucking confusing.

the way i see it, people just can't make up thier minds whether to be gay or straight, so herm is just stuck in the middle

Marbles said:
Derp. Uh, what's the one for lack of then?

I believe that'd be agender. 'S what I'd consider myself.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
the way i see it, people just can't make up thier minds whether to be gay or straight, so herm is just stuck in the middle

Frankly? The way you see is rather limited, given that you're stuck on the binary splits of male/female and gay/straight. I mean for fuck's sake Alfred Kinsey did his research, what, more than sixty-two years ago? And came to pretty conclusive results that indicated people aren't split into neat boxes on sexuality, but may be anywhere on a fluid range.

acct0283476 said:
Frankly? The way you see is rather limited, given that you're stuck on the binary splits of male/female and gay/straight. I mean for fuck's sake Alfred Kinsey did his research, what, more than sixty-two years ago? And came to pretty conclusive results that indicated people aren't split into neat boxes on sexuality, but may be anywhere on a fluid range.

Kinsley's sexuality spectrum has also been outdated.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
the way i see it, people just can't make up thier minds whether to be gay or straight, so herm is just stuck in the middle

Sexuality have nothing to do with gender. :)

Marbles said:
Derp. Uh, what's the one for lack of then?

Neutrois. ^^

Aurali said:
Kinsley's sexuality spectrum has also been outdated.

That was kind of my point, about it being over a half-century old.

Aurali said:
Neutrois. ^^

Figures. People can't go a week without coming up with a new word I haven't heard of D:

Aurali said:
Neutrois. ^^

Never heard that one before, but [<b>http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Neutrois</b>] says that Neutrois aren't null-gender, so much as those who are/wish to become null-<i>sex</i>. As in, [male/female]-to-neuter. Rather different from being genderless, being what agenderedness is.

See? You explain it so well.

Thank goodness for someone who knows the difference between sex and gender.

Honestly now that you mention that, it makes sense why there's only ten billion terms people have come up with. Ya have that male and female, and you extrapolate that into gender and sex and you have male, female, FtM, and MtF. Then you start trying to add in "both at the same time", "both alternatively", and "neither", suddenly this gets all kinds of fucked up.

Luckily in real life you only have 3 physical sexes, male female and intersexed to keep track of. But what if you start counting things like a Eunich as a physical sex?

Gawd.

Too many terms, best to start with a base of male or female and describe the changes from there.

Marbles said:
Ya have that male and female, and you extrapolate that into gender and sex and you have male, female, FtM, and MtF. Then you start trying to add in "both at the same time", "both alternatively", and "neither", suddenly this gets all kinds of fucked up.

It's not exactly like like it's our fault society creates and enforces gender... I mean, that I think gender is pretty much societal-norms bullshit is practically half the reason I consider myself agender in the first place. If it weren't for the creation of gender it'd be a metric fuckton easier to describe a person's sex/sexuality. Just "I've got this [, but I want to have this] [, and I like this in others] ."

Sure, there are some hormone differences among the sexes that affect how you react to intercourse and children, but other than that gender was basically fabricated from nothing for convenience and/or survival in previous ages...

acct0283476 said:
It's not exactly like like it's our fault society creates and enforces gender...

Sure, there are some hormone differences among the sexes that affect how you react to intercourse and children, but other than that gender was basically fabricated from nothing for convenience and/or survival in previous ages...

Oh pish. The binary gender system my have been fabricated, but that doesn't mean that gender as a whole is a faulty system. It's just a more of a 3 axis graph than the simple A or B that people have historically regarded it as. Masculine and feminine are not opposites, but rather two entirely different qualitative traits.

X axis, Feminine to Not feminine
Y axis, Masculine to not masculine
Z axis, Rigid to fluid.

Really, gender is how a person identifies themselves. If you stripped away a person's physical body, what sorta person would they be?

For all my hanging around with transgendered folks all the time, it has more to do with me being pansexual than anything else. I generaly find my gender to be extremely rigidly female. Every bit as strongly as why you view yourself as agender. Ya obviously are quite a bit rigid in your gender yourself, or at least lack-there-of. As opposed to how fluid my lifemate is.

Well, yes, I'll admit to that. Mainly due to having a habit of excessive introspection, and having come to the conclusion at one point that, by percentage, oh... I'd rate myself somewhere around 5-10% masculine and 15-20% feminine. Not enough to really care either way.

But my point on gender was more of that it is (originally) societally <u>assigned</u> by physical sex, which is where I find the fault / rational disconnect in the system. I don't care if people have traits that would be considered masculine or feminine; just because I'm agender myself doesn't mean I'm opposed to people having identities that match up with a gender norm ('matching' their sex or not). I'm just opposed to the arbitrary plastering of femininity onto physical females and masculinity onto physical males as they grow up.

Basically, I just don't see why your personality/identity does or should have anything to do with your physical sex <i>or</i> your sexual preferences.

i have a penis, i want to put it in your vagina, and play with your boobies. i think its pretty easy to explain

I think gender identity is an attempt to counter societal biases towards physical sexes by trying to alter how society percieves you. But, ultimately this is futile because these very attmepts simply make society look at you as a weirdo. You're born with a physical sex and a sexual orientation, but gender identity is more a reflection of what culture you identify with. Everyone has their own feelings, but everyone wants to fit in somewhere, so we've constructed these groups to try to explain how we feel and who we are. These types of groups are useful tools to coordinate with like-minded individuals, but often people are associated with them against their will; and often these groups fall under much stronger social biases than those they're designed to escape from in the first place.

What it all comes down to is how much you care about what people think about you. How much you're willing to conform to societal norms is as much a personality trait as your gender identity. Personality, society, and culture are all interrelated and interdependent, and being "yourself" is not always the same as how you want to be percieved.

RlctntFr said:
You're born with a physical sex and <i>sexual orientation </i>[i'm ok with the rest]

homosexuality is a learned behavior, mostly from desperation or too much feminin influences in an upbringing for men, just being plain kinky for women. if it was genetics there would be alot less people

acct0283476 said:
I'm just opposed to the arbitrary plastering of femininity onto physical females and masculinity onto physical males as they grow up.

Basically, I just don't see why your personality/identity does or should have anything to do with your physical sex <i>or</i> your sexual preferences.

Oh hell, I agree.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
if it was genetics there would be alot less people

You assume that the gene for homosexuality couldn't also do something like increase fertility in women, and thus would continue proliferation of the gene through an increased average childbirth among close family members (There is actually evidence for this).

Or that it could be not genetic, but rather something that occurs in the womb. There are lots of prenatal conditions, and it would hardly be surprising if homosexuality or transgenderism is a prenatal condition, considering that is when early brain structure is developed.

Most likely, it's a mixture of the two.

I was brought up in a very sheltered, very conservative environment. I was taught that being gay is nothing more than a choice. Then I found myself fapping to dudes. If it's not genetic or a condition then what the hell happened to my childhood?

RlctntFr said:
I was brought up in a very sheltered, very conservative environment. I was taught that being gay is nothing more than a choice. Then I found myself fapping to dudes. If it's not genetic or a condition then what the hell happened to my childhood?

Same thing here. I practiced self-mutilation for a while over my attraction to women, because I deeply believed that if I didn't I would burn in hell for all eternity.

It wasn't a sustainable belief system :P

Marbles said:
Oh hell, I agree.

You assume that the gene for homosexuality couldn't also do something like increase fertility in women, and thus would continue proliferation of the gene through an increased average childbirth among close family members (There is actually evidence for this).

you assume that there is such a thing as a gene for homosexuality. i see that as an excuse fora homosexual to say, "i can't help being gay, it's in my genes" instead of just sayign, hey i'm gay deal with it. i got nothing against gay people, but the way that some people deal with it is just ridicules.

hey i'm gay deal with it.

Also, no one knows I'm bi except like, one person. If I could choose not to be equally attracted to males and females, I would, but I don't see that happening short of finding a good woman to settle down with and take my mind off things. The guys seem to have a head-start at the moment though (the one person.)

from what i understand, you can't get laid by women, so your resorting to men but actually want a woman. sounds like you're "gay" out of desperation of needing to get laid.

in short http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=38pWXPfCcuI

You could make that judgement except that you don't actually know anything about my life. I obviously have sexual urges but I could give a shit about "getting laid." I've never even kissed a man, and it's a lot easier to have sex with a woman, especially when you're keeping the fact that you're bi a secret. Your logic doesn't hold up, and it's also pretty insulting.

RlctntFr said:
You could make that judgement except that you don't actually know anything about my life. I obviously have sexual urges but I could give a shit about "getting laid." I've never even kissed a man, and it's a lot easier to have sex with a woman, especially when you're keeping the fact that you're bi a secret. Your logic doesn't hold up, and it's also pretty insulting.

i'm not making a judgment on you, that;s why i said this

fartpaw_firekidney said:
from what i understand,

meanign, from what i derived from what you said. if you found what i said insulting, i'm just rephrasing what you said, or at least what i understood what you said.

acct0283476 said:
Never heard that one before, but [<b>http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Neutrois</b>] says that Neutrois aren't null-gender, so much as those who are/wish to become null-<i>sex</i>. As in, [male/female]-to-neuter. Rather different from being genderless, being what agenderedness is.

Marbles said:
See? You explain it so well.

Thank goodness for someone who knows the difference between sex and gender.

I dunno... I've had my sex changed to match my gender... I'm sure I know the difference... but...

Yes, someone without a gender identity... though on this one it does get a bit confusing :/

RlctntFr said:
I was brought up in a very sheltered, very conservative environment. I was taught that being gay is nothing more than a choice. Then I found myself fapping to dudes. If it's not genetic or a condition then what the hell happened to my childhood?

see below.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
you assume that there is such a thing as a gene for homosexuality. i see that as an excuse fora homosexual to say, "i can't help being gay, it's in my genes" instead of just sayign, hey i'm gay deal with it. i got nothing against gay people, but the way that some people deal with it is just ridicules.

there are so many different reasons for homosexuality... don't try to pinpoint just one.. (I myself have a fluctuating sexuality... try explaining that one XD)

how can you change your sex to match your gender -_-. as for fluctuating sexuality, i still call horniness and willing to grab what's available on that.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
everything in this forum

i think i love you =D
not in a gay way of course D=

fartpaw_firekidney said:
how can you change your sex to match your gender -_-

Durrr.

Aurali is saying that she is a transsexual who's had SRS. Don't know if she is MtF or FtM though. I SHOULD just assume MtF, but uh, gawd I've known too many FtMs so I don't really want to. But wait uh, FtM SRS is like uh, nonexistant. So if Aurali is saying that she had SRS, that would mean she's an MtF.

EDIT: Congrats on your SRS Aurali.

Marbles said:
Durrr.

Aurali is saying that she is a transsexual who's had SRS. Don't know if she is MtF or FtM though. I SHOULD just assume MtF, but uh, gawd I've known too many FtMs so I don't really want to. But wait uh, FtM SRS is like uh, nonexistant. So if Aurali is saying that she had SRS, that would mean she's an MtF.

EDIT: Congrats on your SRS Aurali.

you missed my point, i k now how people change their sex, but to match their gender? when you change your sex, you change your gender as well.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
you missed my point, i k now how people change their sex, but to match their gender? when you change your sex, you change your gender as well.

luvdaporn said:
i think i love you =D
not in a gay way of course D=

don't worry about it man, everyone loves me

fartpaw_firekidney said:
you missed my point, i k now how people change their sex, but to match their gender? when you change your sex, you change your gender as well.

Tada. Someone who doesn't know the difference between sex and gender.

Sex is physical
Gender is mental

There are only 3 sexes. Male, Female, and Intersex (Intersex is actually a variety of birth defects that causes a person to be a mix of male and female; no it's not a herm, you can't have two sets of genitalia; each part has a parallel part). But there are a huge number of genders on the transgender spectrum. The least of which is the simple case of a transsexual where their gender is the opposite of their birth sex.

When you are born, your sex is determined by your genetics. Your gender on the other hand, is determined by conditions during early pregnancy which is when basic brain structure develops. Ideally, gender matches sex; that's really what is supposed to happen. But with all transgendered individuals and transsexuals, it didn't happen for some reason.

It's a conflict of genetics vs pre-natal environment.

huh, here i thought it was some bullshit made up by furries or homosexuals making an excuse to get a gender change, but you're right, it is something based on society constructs. I learned my one new thing for today, time to shut down.

However, I do not agree with your views on how gender is decided. It is by belief that "gender" or as I have known it, choice of homosexuality or being straight (gender is alot easier to say isn't it), is done by conditioning as the child grows, according to influences and encounters. If a child has alot of feminine influences, he's going to mimic some of them since children absorb and grow their character in their early years.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
If a child has alot of feminine influences, he's going to mimic some of them since children absorb and grow their character in their early years.

And if the child has no feminine influences? Studies have shown time and time again that theory doesn't work at all, for over half of homosexual males are masculine, not effeminate, and even with regards to the effeminate gays, they almost universally grew up around masculine influences which they rejected later in life.

Extrapolate the same thing to lesbians, MtFs, and FtMs.

Maybe, MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, a feminine upbringing amounts to a small percentage of homosexual males. But it hardly accounts for all of them. And to say otherwise is to spit in the face of the countless studies which have been done over and over that failed to prove your idea.

EDIT: In fact, those same studies showed that most parents get an inkling that there is something not cisgendered about their child as early as one year old, and they usually aggressively try to reinforce the cisgendered gender-role on their child.... and fail miserably universally.

i would like to read these studies, could you name a few, or at least the people who have done said research and I'll look from there. Still, a proper upbringing has alot of sway over a child's mentality. tell a judge, hey i killed that guy because it's in my genetics/i was born like that, won't fly smoothly at all. yes, i know there's research on that, i've seen and read about it, but in most cases the environment of the patient had something to do with it

Actions. Choices. Decisions. Everything we do in our life is a choice. EVERYTHING

But some things are not in our control.

Do you make a choice to find yourself sexually attracted to a woman? Do you make a decision to become aroused by women? Or is it reflexive, subconscious?

Yes it is a choice when a male decides to go out on a date with another male. Just like it's a choice when a male decides to go out on a date with a female. But, the initial attraction? It is not a choice, not something you have control over.

You can't simply look at women and say "I'm not going to be attracted to them, I'm going to be attracted to males instead". It simply isn't a choice.

That is why your comparison fails.

Actions. Choices. Decisions. Everything we do in our life is a choice. EVERYTHING. Even the decision to do nothing, is a decision to reject the possibilities of doing something productive.

But some things are not in our control.

Do you make a choice to find yourself sexually attracted to a woman? Do you make a decision to become aroused by women? Or is it reflexive, subconscious?

Yes it is a choice when a male decides to go out on a date with another male. Just like it's a choice when a male decides to go out on a date with a female. But, the initial attraction? It is not a choice, not something you have control over.

You can't simply look at women and say "I'm not going to be attracted to her, I'm going to be attracted to males instead". It simply isn't a choice.

That is why your comparison fails.

actually, i can be a living disprove for you. i got off the gay bandwagon super easy. haven't looked at guys sexually ever since.

Okay... just because this is infuriating me to know end..
GENDER DOES NOT EQUAL SEXUALITY.
Gender is the mental image of what/who you are... in terms of if you see yourself as female male.. nothing both.. other weird gender term.. blah.

Sexuality is what SEX you are attracted to. OTHER males.. OTHER females..

fartpaw_firekidney said:
you missed my point, i k now how people change their sex, but to match their gender? when you change your sex, you change your gender as well.

This argument doesn't even work in Texas >.> (gender AND sex are defined on the genetic level)

fartpaw_firekidney said:
actually, i can be a living disprove for you. i got off the gay bandwagon super easy. haven't looked at guys sexually ever since.

I have never met someone who chose to be straight before.. Meh, there had to be some truth to the choice theory. :/

I've always known it as sex is your physical sex, whereas gender is what sex you feel like you are on the inside, or what sex you identify with.

fartpaw_firekidney said:
actually, i can be a living disprove for you. i got off the gay bandwagon super easy. haven't looked at guys sexually ever since.

An inspiration to us all, sir. You should start up your own ex-gay ministry.

Aurali said:
Okay... just because this is infuriating me to know end..
GENDER DOES NOT EQUAL SEXUALITY.
Gender is the mental image of what/who you are... in terms of if you see yourself as female male.. nothing both.. other weird gender term.. blah.

we already said that, you probably jumped ahead.

This argument doesn't even work in Texas >.> (gender AND sex are defined on the genetic level)

i'm from texas

I have never met someone who chose to be straight before.. Meh, there had to be some truth to the choice theory. :/

predestination and no free will is total bullshit imho.

I'm starting to think we've all been trolled by mr fartpaw.

fartpaw_firekidney said
i'm from texas

then you know how it doesn't work :)

predestination and no free will is total bullshit imho.

and some people would rather not live a lie :)

Marbles said:
I'm starting to think we've all been trolled by mr fartpaw.

you would be righteous to assume so, since i do rather get jollies from trolling my fellow furries, but this time i was looking for a sincere answer. of course as with all forums it gets sidetracked after the question is answered. Remember that when waving the troll cadr around, you end up looking stupider if you're wrong.

Aurali said:
then you know how it doesn't work :)

i see no reason why the logic would not hold up here.

and some people would rather not live a lie :)

i don't understand fully, but i think you mean that predestination is a lie?