As anyone on the site will tell you, the "Tag what you see, not what you know" rule is beyond retarded. And the majority of arguments over it end with some mod coming in and "Telling" us what's what. The thing is the artist's authority should be higher than anyone else's. Because he knows what he drew. A perfect example of this would be in http://e621.net/post/show/257254.

Anyone with a brain cell could easily tell that that is Rainbow Dash. Blue coat, artist's background on ponies, Rainbow Colored pubes... Jrvanesbroek, the artist of the picture, even said it was Rainbow Dash when he posted it on his tumblr. There, you have the artist saying who the picture is of. But, for some reason, that does not apply to this site. The rules on Tagging are flawed and need to be changed. Not ignored.

http://imgur.com/5Otjs

You agreed to our rules, including our tagging rules, when you created your account, as stipulated in the terms of service.

If you have a problem with the conduct of a particular administrator, please feel free to open a trouble ticket or contact Char via dmail or email.

We aren't saying it isn't rainbow dash. We're saying it doesn't get tagged as her, due to lack of evidence in the image. If her face or cutie mark were in the image, that would be another story.

What if the artist said it was Cthulhu? Would you still regard his word as you do now? Would you still demonize us for disregarding it?

As has been said a million times before, outside information is irrelevant on an image board built to facilitate searches. If we allow exceptions like this then what's the point of standardizing it in the first point?

And lastly, it's not a couple "retarded admins" enforcing this standard. It's site policy. We all follow it, and we all enforce it, just some more strictly than others. People act as though the tags an image gets directly affect the art itself. We can't tell you what it is or what it isn't. That's for you to decide. Why make such a fuss over what tags it gets?

Derpy's_Augar said:
The rules on Tagging are flawed and need to be changed. Not ignored.

Every single set of rules in existence is in one way or another flawed, you simply can not create perfect rules that make everyone happy.

Best example: What if the artist would say this is Fluttershy cosplaying as Applejack? Should we suddenly tag this as Fluttershy simply because he said so?

The current rule simply tries to help searching things based on what a neutral, unknowing viewer would see in the image, as opposed to what you are supposed to see.

It is absolutely correct that this rule is not the best if you are an artist and the image is interpreted in a way he does not want but it is the only way if you want a neutral and objective database.
And this is the entire point of it all, to create an archive with a working search engine, something you can't create if you use exceptions or assumptions everywhere.

Sure, your example would change exactly nothing for that purpose but there are enough possibilities where this would seriously hinder an objective and neutral system, just take a look at FA's tagging system, they have the other extreme of ours, only the artist is allowed to tag things, good luck trying to find something if the artist is a lazy tagger or a tagging Troll.

I have the perfect defense for tag what you see

Say I draw a circle... then I the artist with my authority say it is a square. I am the artist so my authority is above all but would you still tag it as a square? My word is law according to your logic, I knew what I drew and I say it's a circle, so as the artist I want it tagged as circle.

Then when people search circle and see my "circle" they will not have what they wanted, and if we did this for all sources, the system wouldn't work anymore

People searching herms want to see herms; they don't want to hunt down the source to figure out why something that doesn't appear as a herm popped up when searching herm.

Main point in argument, the artist could claim it as anything; it would be foolish to just take their word instead of tagging what is directly verifiable in the image

Are we really going through this again?

i'm siding with the admins on this one. some people don't want to read a book of backgroud story about some random character, they want to fap.

The butthurt.
Oooh, the butthurt.

Is it really wise to go calling admins retarded just hours after receiving a second negative mark on your profile? Just sayin.

Admins handle it professionally, then the peanut gallery comes in to complain lol

Cry harder

In light of the aforementioned reasoning behind this system and the several hundred thousand images here tagged in this manner, both the site staff and the user base at large are disinclined to acquiesce to your request at this point in time. Thank you and have a nice day.

Derpy's_Augar said:
http://e621.net/post/show/257254

Rainbow Colored pubes

There's a few colors missing... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow#Number_of_colours_in_spectrum_or_rainbow => your argument is invalid

To be honest, I don't even agree with ippiki's comment that people searching for RD would want to see that image. They might, but for me personally, RD is my 2nd-favourite, and that doesn't even look like a fuckin' horse.

Looks like a human who ate way too many blueberries.

But yeah, the point is the image database is structured to the benefit of people searching for images they want, not for bolstering the artists' egoes. If the artist can't make it look conclusively like what it's supposed to be, then they didn't do a very good job of it, did they?

Excuse me, but Rainbow Dash said in comments that's not her - therefore artist is lying.

Derpy's_Augar said:
As anyone on the site will tell you, the "Tag what you see, not what you know" rule is beyond retarded.

speak for yourself, BOX OF FLOWERS

*ahem*

Please don't feed.

Now, continue.

I dunno... post #257254 looks more like a night elf from WoW to me. Or maybe that dranei whore from those comics. I certainly don't see mlp, much less any particular character.

CamKitty said:
Admins handle it professionally, then the peanut gallery comes in to complain lol

The fact the admins didn't immediately ban him is the only thing I have to complain about, right now. Maybe I'm just missing Mellis' cruel, impatient touch.

To add to what everyone else has said above, I think the "Tag What You See" rule tends to receive a more favorable response whenever it's applied to images with cubs in them. If an artist swears "This is NOT CUB!! THEY ARE BOTH YOUNG ADULTS!!" but it otherwise looks like cubs/minors in the pic itself, then it gets tagged "cub". This is one reason among many of why "Tag What You See" is crucial to this site's continued success.

However, we can't say "ok TWYS applies only in cases when cubs might be involved" because then we're adding exceptions and convolution to a rule that can be very easily applied universally in almost all cases. As I've stated before, TWYS is not a perfect solution, and, in fact, there is no perfect solution. But I would much rather see us just have to handle the few cases where TWYS doesn't work completely than deal with legit tags not being applied (or illegit tags not being removed) just because the artist says they shouldn't be.

Derpy's_Augar said:
Anyone with a brain cell could easily tell that that is Rainbow Dash. Blue coat, artist's background on ponies, Rainbow Colored pubes... Jrvanesbroek, the artist of the picture, even said it was Rainbow Dash when he posted it on his tumblr.

What you're effectively saying here is "anyone with a brain cell AND prior knowledge of all this other information", which is exactly what TWYS tries to avoid. It looks like Rainbow Dash to you because that's what you want to see. I can very easily imagine plenty of other characters that would have a frame and coloring just like what you pointed out (she doesn't even have wings in the pic, actually, which could be used as "evidence" that it's potentially some other character, since our prior knowledge of Rainbow Dash suggests that she has wings, right?).

In short, yes, the TWYS rule does have a degree of controversy surrounding it. The problem is that any proposed alternatives I've heard to "Tag What You See" open up tagging to an entirely new set of problems, most of them being tags being applied very inconsistently.

Laevateinn said:
The fact the admins didn't immediately ban him is the only thing I have to complain about, right now. Maybe I'm just missing Mellis' cruel, impatient touch.

Especially given some knee jerk warnings lol

elad said:
Is it really wise to go calling admins retarded just hours after receiving a second negative mark on your profile? Just sayin.

OH NEGATIVE MARKS! I just shit myself.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Excuse me, but Rainbow Dash said in comments that's not her - therefore artist is lying.

Great. More Roleplaying Autists.

Derpy's_Augar said:
Great. More Roleplaying Autists.

Comedy genius.

Derpy's_Augar said:
Great. More Roleplaying Autists.

I fucking lol'd.

I'm reasonably certain that "autists" isn't a real word.
I think you mean "autistic people".

Er...as I'd expressed in the staff channel, I feel like people should be able to vent a bit in the forums when they disagree with us, sooo that last record probably shouldn't have happened. My two cents.

Open up your argument with an insult to the site's administration.

When you receive a series of cogent counter-arguments, insult the users.

Captain of the debate team, right here.

ippiki_ookami said:
Er...as I'd expressed in the staff channel, I feel like people should be able to vent a bit in the forums when they disagree with us, sooo that last record probably shouldn't have happened. My two cents.

Dude shouldn't have to be as immature (amongst other things) as he's being to 'vent.' He's outright attacking other users, and making an ass of himself.

No need to give 'em a reason to circlejerk, TC. They're too stubborn to listen anyhow.

JustFrame said:
No need to give 'em a reason to circlejerk, TC. They're too stubborn to listen anyhow.

Wait, who's circlejerking, who's TC, and who's too stubborn to listen to what? Was that post meant for a different forum topic?

Can I watch? I <3 cocks.

Hammie said:
Can I watch? I <3 cocks.

The best part about a porn site is that "cockfighting" takes on a whole new meaning.

I fuckin' love this thread. It makes me feel like all the baw I've generated over countless tagging disputes was totally worth it.
...I still haven't been blocked for FFDing that crab advertisement... Lol, mellis.

ippiki_ookami said:
Er...as I'd expressed in the staff channel, I feel like people should be able to vent a bit in the forums when they disagree with us, sooo that last record probably shouldn't have happened. My two cents.

i disagreed with what i got from ippiki..or at least halfway disagreed. however, i learned long ago that to bring it to a public place tended to make things worse. trust me, i was furious lastnight, didnt help i had been drinking as well (hence my hostility twards derpy which is the reason i got my neg) the backseat modding however is what i disagreed on, i was merely pointing out what several admin had already said, not dictating the rules or telling derp what to do.
Unlike derpy here, i took it to char, however i am known to basically "loose it" once in awhile due to how my daily life is, if you want an explanation i'd be happy to but youll have to ask, otherwise ill be rambling. So yeah, i sort of vented on char lastnight, as well as lost it and requested anything made by me on e621 be removed as i was going to be leaving due to not feeling welcome anymore... however as you can see...i chose to keep it private untill now, because in the past when ive done something like what derpy did here with this forum thread, ive almost always had it come back and rip my face off.

There is a difference between Disputing, and Drama, though it is a very fine line.

ippiki_ookami said:
Er...as I'd expressed in the staff channel, I feel like people should be able to vent a bit in the forums when they disagree with us, sooo that last record probably shouldn't have happened. My two cents.

This thread (first at admins and then users) is enough for bans normally, even in forums. At this point I am thinking he must know someone in the staff lol

CamKitty said:
...At this point I am thinking he must know someone in the staff lol

does sort of make sense...

Infact, thats a very vaild point made by cam. If i had done this i'd have been out on my ass in the snow by now, even if i happen to be a person who trys to do alot to help the site and am a good user 98% of the time.
Derpy's Attacked admin, and insulted quite a few people. While i am hostile sometimes, its not by choice, and i usually come back and apologize as i didnt mean it.
So...really does derpy have like, invulnerability or something?

Esme_Belles said:
So...really does derpy have like, invulnerability or something?

Perfect Dodge it would seem...

Hey guys what's goin on in here?.. Oh... Goodbye.

ippiki_ookami said:
Er...as I'd expressed in the staff channel, I feel like people should be able to vent a bit in the forums when they disagree with us, sooo that last record probably shouldn't have happened. My two cents.

Have you been haunted by Ghosts of Christmas this year?

This thread has brought great lulz

The people running this site don't seem the type to me that would let someone slide like this just because he's somehow connected to staff. I find it more likely they're all just really mellow right now, maybe a combination of Christmas and spiked eggnog.

Foobaria said:
The people running this site don't seem the type to me that would let someone slide like this just because he's somehow connected to staff. I find it more likely they're all just really mellow right now, maybe a combination of Christmas and spiked eggnog.

Or all the admins got drunk at the same time. Those crazy admin parties...

On the debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxK_nA2iVXw
In mind: feels that way sometime,yes

OP is not connected to any of the admins. Users are afforded a degree of amnesty here in the forums (or they should be), when they disagree with our policies or records that we've given, since they can't very well do so in the comments or blips. Would it have been wiser to just PM the staff member? Sure. But people need a venue for contesting calls made by the staff. Maybe OP chose his words a bit poorly, but that seems like a silly reason to ban someone. He's frustrated, and should be given the chance to make his case publicly. My only regret is that he doesn't seems too keen on doing so.

ippiki_ookami said:
OP is not connected to any of the admins. Users are afforded a degree of amnesty here in the forums (or they should be), when they disagree with our policies or records that we've given, since they can't very well do so in the comments or blips. Would it have been wiser to just PM the staff member? Sure. But people need a venue for contesting calls made by the staff. Maybe OP chose his words a bit poorly, but that seems like a silly reason to ban someone. He's frustrated, and should be given the chance to make his case publicly. My only regret is that he doesn't seems too keen on doing so.

Normally I would agree with you if he'd come in here being reasonable, but the thread title alone is seeking to instigate things, and calling the admin that gave him his second negative mark a retard in the comments of that image shows that he's not interested in intelligent discourse on the matter.

And I could be wrong, but it doesn't appear that he's banned; his user page doesn't show him as banned, just that he's got those three negative marks.

Really? A negative mark for calling someone Autistic? One of the Rules for the Site is "Don't role play in the comments." Which Moderators Princess Celestia and Rainbow Dash do all the time. But I guess that rule dosen't apply to moderators, does it. If you are pretending to be a pony on the internet from a little girl's TV show, that's pretty autistic.

See what I mean? He's not even trying at this point.

And another rule is to not insult other users, Derp. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Wow... Usesrs, I am dissapoint...

I'm starting to get the urge to suggest immature comments are ques to ban for underage...

Using "autistic" pejoratively is no better than saying "bad grammar is so GAY" so stop that, please; it's making my stay worse than it should be. To me, this site is supposed to be a place of happiness and whateverness, not mindlessº argumentation over someone saying "I'm a pony. *hugs Derpy's Augar*"

Doing it once in a while is often overlooked. Probably because it's used as a mean of creating humor rather than trying to be someone/thing else.

ºI use the term mindless since what I've seen is not composed of well-thought-out arguments, rather just taking what the other person said and doing the same or saying it's stupid in one way or another.(lol hypocrisy)

Hopefully this is not seen as backseatmoderationorwhatever, I'm just trying to make the site more enjoyable, and I do believe I'm ranting in a somewhat civilized fashion. :3

ippiki_ookami said:
He's frustrated, and should be given the chance to make his case publicly. My only regret is that he doesn't seems too keen on doing so.

IMO if he's frustrated then he should be given chance to shut up and calm down during few days of ban. Then he can make his case politely.

Digital_Kindness said:
Two rights don't make a wrong.

I think you have that backwards.

Derpy's_Augar said:
I think you have that backwards.

You're right, I do. I've been lysdexic all day...

But hey, you didn't call me autistic, so I think we've taken a step in the right direction.

Holy fuck, it wasn't even roleplay. It was just facetiousness because that's the admin's chosen handle.

Point me to some of this roleplay of which you speak, because I just looked through both of their comment histories and I just don't see it. You'd better not be referring to "slurps some cupped noodles" as roleplay, because christ, man. Please make sense. Please.

Derpy's_Augar said:
Really? A negative mark for calling someone Autistic? One of the Rules for the Site is "Don't role play in the comments."

Since you're so keen on quoting site rules:
"Don't insult other users, intentionally start drama or otherwise be an obnoxious troll."
"Don't: Cause drama, insult/troll users, be annoying just for the sake of being annoying."
"These are your moderators. Treat them with the same respect you would give your family, your cake, or your glorious Renamon sex toy."
Why should we make exceptions for you? Why are you special that you get to insult people, but no one else does?

Derpy's_Augar said:
One of the Rules for the Site is "Don't role play in the comments." Which Moderators Princess Celestia and Rainbow Dash do all the time.

No, they don't.

Derpy's_Augar said:
But I guess that rule dosen't apply to moderators, does it.

Yes, it does.

At first I was pushing to remove one or more of your negatives since I'd asked the staff to leave you alone in the first place regarding this rather incendiary topic, but it's becoming clear that you have no interest in debating your case with any modicum of civility or professionalism. So you can keep them. And may Glob have mercy on your soul.

roleplay
(v.) To act and speak as if you are the character you're portraying. To roleplay is as much about what not to say as what TO say. It means to keep your speech in the context of the setting in which your character (or avatar) exists. Context can be defined as both time and place.

Rainbow_Dash said:
Everyone, calm down, this aint ma belly, there, now you have undeniable proof

Are you that dense Ippiki?

Alright, that cinches it: This person is deliberately being confounding and obtuse at every turn just to elicit a reaction. Also known as "trolling". We all fell for it; Good job. Clap-clap.

Foobaria said:
Alright, that cinches it: This person is deliberately being confounding and obtuse at every turn just to elicit a reaction. Also known as "trolling". We all fell for it; Good job. Clap-clap.

You caught me. I'm xXxLE_EPIC_TRICKSTER_360_NO_SCOPE_HEADSHOT_1337xXx.

You've been coaxed into a snafu and are a victim of my ruse. HAHAHAHAHA!

Derpy's_Augar said:
Are you that dense Ippiki?

Well, I was the one sticking up for you, so yes. I guess I am dense. But trust me, I've learned my lesson.

ippiki_ookami said:
Well, I was the one sticking up for you, so yes. I guess I am dense. But trust me, I've learned my lesson.

He thinks I care about a few negatives mark.

I just want a few mods to leave and the rules on tagging to be changed.

Aaaaaand thread over.

pony0010 said:
Aaaaaand thread over.

For two weeks anyway...

Edit: derp http://e621.net/forum/show/55893

Interestingly enough Derpy asked if it was IP or account, made an alt, got banhammahed again. Sheesh, this guys gota worse temper than i do...and thats saying something considering i live with a daily pain threshhold/illness that would drive a normal person insane.

Esme_Belles said:
i live with a daily pain threshhold/illness that would drive a normal person insane.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe you are?

Munkelzahn said:
Have you considered the possibility that maybe you are?

*shrugs* always a possibilty, ever heard of chronic migraine syndrome? Mine dont go away with pain medication, it just dulls it mildy.

Derp http://e621.net/forum/show/55904

Don't make this as a big show, people, lol.

*watches fireworks*

furballs_dc said:
*watches fireworks*

This is not happy new years, yet! D:<

lol....anyone wana take bets on how long till he gets bored?

or the admin IP whack...

He made yet another one, then bam.

Barbados hunting is the... best.. game.. ever...

Aim for the...

...

furballs_dc said:
Aim for the...

...head

furballs_dc said:
Aim for the...

acorns.

Dem squirrels r gettin' it.

Keats said:
acorns.

Dem squirrels r gettin' it.

Best one yet!