post #1042777
Shantae, by game canon, is a half-Genie, half-Human. However, according to e621 rules, you Tag What You See. Should she be tagged as an elf in these images, then, due to the pointed ears, or shall we consider "Genie" to also fit under the list of pointy-eared species (Hyrulian, Elves, and Vulcans are all under it already, for example; when the species look the same we use a bit of outside context)?

post #1084589 post #409676 post #857625 post #450340 post #392686
And then we've got these. All tagged as Shantae. Yet, ignoring any outside knowledge, how can we be sure that these are Shantae? Sure, they've all got Shantae's tiara, but even that is outside knowledge. I think we may need to create a new tag for each form, such as shantae_(monkey) or bat_shantae.
Following my complaints on the Wolf Link thread, most of these should not imply species.

I cast my vote for the <animal>_shantae tags.

I'd tag Shantae as a genie for the same reason that we tag Sonic characters by species, even if they don't look like it. As I understand it, TWYS allows us to tag stuff based on outside sources as long as there's no conflicting evidence. As for the second part, I do believe they should still be tagged as Shantae (as in the character) since they're still her, just in alternate forms (A.K.A. alternate_species). Again, as long as the evidence isn't conflicting with the source, then tag it. However, I do support the creation of tags based on Shantae's more common forms in addition to the alternate species tag.

UnusualParadox said:
I'd tag Shantae as a genie for the same reason that we tag Sonic characters by species, even if they don't look like it. As I understand it, TWYS allows us to tag stuff based on outside sources as long as there's no conflicting evidence. As for the second part, I do believe they should still be tagged as Shantae (as in the character) since they're still her, just in alternate forms (A.K.A. alternate_species). Again, as long as the evidence isn't conflicting with the source, then tag it. However, I do support the creation of tags based on Shantae's more common forms in addition to the alternate species tag.

What about finding artwork depicting two or more forms of Shantae in the same image? We can't just use shantae *_shantae or shantae shantae_* if we have them all implying the genie form.
post #394115
This is the best example I can currently find, which isn't really what a combination search is normally going to be for, but it contains several forms all at once, with no genie form.

The copyright tags do kind of throw out wildcards, though, so maybe we should instead create a new tag for the genie form, and have that also imply the generic character.

Furrin_Gok said:
What about finding artwork depicting two or more forms of Shantae in the same image? We can't just use shantae *_shantae or shantae shantae_* if we have them all implying the genie form.
post #394115
This is the best example I can currently find, which isn't really what a combination search is normally going to be for, but it contains several forms all at once, with no genie form.

The copyright tags do kind of throw out wildcards, though, so maybe we should instead create a new tag for the genie form, and have that also imply the generic character.

Hmm, I see your point. I think. I don't see a problem with tagging normal Shantae as "Shantae_(Genie_Form)", in fact, it would reinforce the fact that she is a half-genie hybrid. That might be the best solution, although it may confuse some users unless the character tag shantae is aliased to "shantae_(genie_form)". The main issue I see, if any, is the sheer amount of forms Shantae may have. There's only a handful "canon" ones that I know of and fans are very likely to make their own from time to time. That said, as long as they all share the same layout, then it should be fine. I'd just recommend an alternate_species tag for any of Shantae's forms beyond her own natural one.

Furrin_Gok said:
What about finding artwork depicting two or more forms of Shantae in the same image?

That's called square_crossover

Beanjam said:
That's called square_crossover

No, it isn't. That can easily find a single version of Shantae with two versions of Risky Boots, which is completely different from two versions of Shantae.

Furrin_Gok said:
What about finding artwork depicting two or more forms of Shantae in the same image?

Dual_persona might work, except I'm not sure if that's applicable if there's more than two forms.

Maybe we need a multiple_forms tag.

Genjar said:
Dual_persona might work, except I'm not sure if that's applicable if there's more than two forms.

Maybe we need a multiple_forms tag.

That works for the example I posted, as well as Square Crossover for the idea I mentioned, but I still like the idea of having separate tags for each popular form. I mean, if you want to find Shantae in mermaid form, without the tags you'll end up finding other-shantae with not-shantae mermaids:
post #1108067
That's actually just a crab shantae with Giga Mermaid.

Furrin_Gok said:
post #1108067

Oh hey I drew that. x)

Furrin_Gok said:
[...] ignoring any outside knowledge, how can we be sure that these are Shantae?

By that logic, how does anyone know it's Shantae in her normal form, unless they already & arbitrarily recognize her?

As Shantae is, so far as I know, the name of the series / copyright, her name ought ordinarily to be tagged shantae_(character).

I think her other forms ought to be treated like Pokemon forms, i.e. they each have a distinct tag such as crab_shantae, harpy_shantae, etc.

This should prevent confusion if someone were to search for harpy shantae with shantae | harpy and end up getting half-genie Shantae and Harpy Risky Boots or something.

FibS said:
Oh hey I drew that. x)

By that logic, how does anyone know it's Shantae in her normal form, unless they already & arbitrarily recognize her?

As Shantae is, so far as I know, the name of the series / copyright, her name ought ordinarily to be tagged shantae_(character).

I think her other forms ought to be treated like Pokemon forms, i.e. they each have a distinct tag such as crab_shantae, harpy_shantae, etc.

This should prevent confusion if someone were to search for harpy shantae with shantae | harpy and end up getting half-genie Shantae and Harpy Risky Boots or something.

If we're tagging her genie form separately, we can then wildcard *_shantae and get any form, without the copyright tags interfering, assuming we stick the form before her name. Putting the form afterwards will result in us mixing in our copyright tags.

My point regarding character names was more along the lines that the animal forms don't really look like Shantae's humanoid form--Even the eyes change color (Forms have blue sclera instead of white).

Furrin_Gok said:
If we're tagging her genie form separately, we can then wildcard *_shantae and get any form, without the copyright tags interfering, assuming we stick the form before her name. Putting the form afterwards will result in us mixing in our copyright tags.

My point regarding character names was more along the lines that the animal forms don't really look like Shantae's humanoid form--Even the eyes change color (Forms have blue sclera instead of white).

Okay, lemme adjust it a bit.

If we instead use shantae (character) | shantae (crab form), you can search for shantae_(* and it should have the same result without an awkward tag for her normal form

FibS said:
Okay, lemme adjust it a bit.

If we instead use shantae (character) | shantae (crab form), you can search for shantae_(* and it should have the same result without an awkward tag for her normal form

Ah, true. Then we only run into the problem if a sequel decides to use parenthesis, which is unlikely. I still like having form first.

*_(*_form) has been the standard, let's stick to that.

Anyway, since they're canon forms, I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't tag them.

Genjar said:
*_(*_form) has been the standard, let's stick to that.

Anyway, since they're canon forms, I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't tag them.

Does that apply to Shantae's normal form (i.e. "shantae_(genie_form)" too? I'll support it if it does.

Genjar said:
*_(*_form) has been the standard, let's stick to that.

Anyway, since they're canon forms, I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't tag them.

It's also caused mass confusion, case in point Wolf Link getting implicated to wolf due to '_(wolf_form)' at the end of his tag
(Also, Wolf Link has officially been named Wolf Link thanks to Animal Crossing ;P we now need to reverse that alias)

Is a "shantae_(genie_form)" tag necessary? Just search "shantae genie" or "shantae humanoid" will get you her standard form if for whatever reason you hate seeing her other forms.

Just seems a bit weird to me because most art of Shantae is of normal Shantae...seems like a lot of extra work for taggers to remember to always add "shantae_(genie_form)" to every single image of her. I generally like to tag the exceptions rather than the rule (same reason we don't have tags like "head" or "arms"...they're almost always there...but we tag them when there's something different like "4_arms").

Dyrone said:
Is a "shantae_(genie_form)" tag necessary? Just search "shantae genie" or "shantae humanoid" will get you her standard form if for whatever reason you hate seeing her other forms.

Just seems a bit weird to me because most art of Shantae is of normal Shantae...seems like a lot of extra work for taggers to remember to always add "shantae_(genie_form)" to every single image of her. I generally like to tag the exceptions rather than the rule (same reason we don't have tags like "head" or "arms"...they're almost always there...but we tag them when there's something different like "4_arms").

It wouldn't be much work if the shantae character tag was aliased to "shantae_(genie_form)". It would change all current shantae tags to shantae_(genie_form) as well as transform subsequent tag additions or edits being tagged as shantae to that form. That said, I don't know if the the copyright tag shantae_(series) has any aliases attributed to it (though I seriously doubt it).

Dyrone said:
Is a "shantae_(genie_form)" tag necessary? Just search "shantae genie" or "shantae humanoid" will get you her standard form if for whatever reason you hate seeing her other forms.

Just seems a bit weird to me because most art of Shantae is of normal Shantae...seems like a lot of extra work for taggers to remember to always add "shantae_(genie_form)" to every single image of her. I generally like to tag the exceptions rather than the rule (same reason we don't have tags like "head" or "arms"...they're almost always there...but we tag them when there's something different like "4_arms").

People who aren't aware of the form tags would tag a new bat Shantae as just shantae, though, which would result in it showing up when somebody's looking for her genie form.

UnusualParadox said:
It wouldn't be much work if the shantae character tag was aliased to "shantae_(genie_form)". It would change all current shantae tags to shantae_(genie_form) as well as transform subsequent tag additions or edits being tagged as shantae to that form. That said, I don't know if the the copyright tag shantae_(series) has any aliases attributed to it (though I seriously doubt it).

That would be bad because then what do you do with images like this? 1018873

That is neither her genie form nor one of her canon forms. That would require a "shantae" tag, but that tag no longer exists because you've aliased it. Bad idea.

Furrin_Gok said:
People who aren't aware of the form tags would tag a new bat Shantae as just shantae, though, which would result in it showing up when somebody's looking for her genie form.

That's completely fine because all forms are still Shantae...so all forms should be tagged with "shantae" and whatever form they are. Like I said you could search "shantae genie" if you just wanted her genie form only.

Dyrone said:
That would be bad because then what do you do with images like this? 1018873

That is neither her genie form nor one of her canon forms. That would require a "shantae" tag, but that tag no longer exists because you've aliased it. Bad idea.

That's completely fine because all forms are still Shantae...so all forms should be tagged with "shantae" and whatever form they are. Like I said you could search "shantae genie" if you just wanted her genie form only.

Not quite. What if it's Monkey Shantae acting as Abu from Alladin, with Alladin's Genie?

Dyrone said:
That would be bad because then what do you do with images like this?

post #1018873

That is neither her genie form nor one of her canon forms. That would require a "shantae" tag, but that tag no longer exists because you've aliased it. Bad idea.

No, that's Shantae's genie form from the waist up. In this case, she's just get the appropiate taur tags in addition to her character tag.

UnusualParadox said:
No, that's Shantae's genie form from the waist up. In this case, she's just get the appropiate taur tags in addition to her character tag.

alternate_species is also a tag. However, there could always be some much more questionable forms; if Shantae is drawn as a turtle, would that get the crab tag and alternate species? I would like to have the character tag separate from form for such potentials.

UnusualParadox said:
No, that's Shantae's genie form from the waist up. In this case, she's just get the appropiate taur tags in addition to her character tag.

Great. So what about this? 1118959

Point is you don't know what crazy animal people are going to draw Shantae as...so it's best to keep "shantae" and not box yourself in with "shantae_(genie_form)".

Furrin_Gok said:
Not quite. What if it's Monkey Shantae acting as Abu from Alladin, with Alladin's Genie?

Well no such picture exists as of yet so for now we're safe.

Dyrone said:
Great. So what about this? 1118959

Technically, that's a shantae_(genie_form) alternate_species image again.

Dyrone said:
Point is you don't know what crazy animal people are going to draw Shantae as...so it's best to keep "shantae" and not box yourself in with "shantae_(genie_form)".

What if we keep the shantae tag but also tag genie form as genie_shantae? Suddenly, we can still have shantae images that are of something completely different.

Well no such picture exists as of yet so for now we're safe.

Key word: "Yet."

Furrin_Gok said:
Technically, that's a shantae_(genie_form) alternate_species image again.

Wow, really? Are you going to keep pulling out technicalities? Just admit that the core idea that images exist where Shantae IS NOT a genie NOR one of her canon forms is a sound one.

I can't imagine you can get around this example:

post #549411

Shantae the hedgehog...alright? Is that a genie? No.

Furrin_Gok said:
What if we keep the shantae tag but also tag genie form as genie_shantae? Suddenly, we can still have shantae images that are of something completely different.

That would be the lesser of two evils I suppose, because straight up aliasing it is the worst idea, but I STILL don't agree that a character's default form should have a qualifier, or even a tag denoting it. That would suggest that her default form and her other forms are of equal importance. As if Shantae is a formless shapeless void being that merely prefers the form of a genie, when in fact she is a genie who transforms into other forms.

And until someone makes that Shantae/Aladdin crossover picture you were talking about it's also just completely unnecessary.

Dyrone said:
Wow, really? Are you going to keep pulling out technicalities? Just admit that the core idea that images exist where Shantae IS NOT a genie NOR one of her canon forms is a sound one.

I can't imagine you can get around this example:

post #549411

Shantae the hedgehog...alright? Is that a genie? No.

That would be the lesser of two evils I suppose, because straight up aliasing it is the worst idea, but I STILL don't agree that a character's default form should have a qualifier, or even a tag denoting it. And until someone makes that Shantae/Aladdin crossover picture you were talking about...it's also wholly unnecessary.

Good pic you got there, but it is missing Alternate_Species. Characters are the only thing relevant with said tag, not species implied or otherwise; Sonic the Hedgehog still has his name despite being an alternate species.

Siral_Exan said:
Good pic you got there, but it is missing Alternate_Species. Characters are the only thing relevant with said tag, not species implied or otherwise; Sonic the Hedgehog still has his name despite being an alternate species.

I literally have no idea what anything you just said means. My point is it's not a genie! That's it! I don't care about this "alternate_species" tag.

Dyrone said:
I literally have no idea what anything you just said means. My point is it's not a genie! That's it! I don't care about this "alternate_species" tag.

You should, because it is the tag that literally means "species that is not the character's original". As in, literally no matter what, any species the character is known as is ignored, the tag is tagged, and the seen species is tagged. Regardless of namesake.

Or in layman's terms: it does not matter what the name is, we have a tag for her if she is not seen in her specific forms.

Siral_Exan said:
You should, because it is the tag that literally means "species that is not the character's original". As in, literally no matter what, any species the character is known as is ignored, the tag is tagged, and the seen species is tagged. Regardless of namesake.

Or in layman' terms: it does not matter what the name is, we have a tag for her if she is not seen in her specific forms.

That doesn't change the fact that it's horribly misleading and weird to have a picture of a hedgehog Shantae with the tag "shantae_(genie_form)"...the tag loses all meaning at that point. If you're going to bother pointing out a specific form, it should show you ONLY that form. You shouldn't have to do a special search like "shantae_(genie_form) -alternate_species"...that's just dumb.

I understand some characters have problem of their species being baked into their name...like "jake_the_dog". Shantae doesn't have that. She is just "Shantae"...there's no clarification needed...until you do something like call her "shantae_(genie_form)" and suddenly you've got problems.

Also I love that you guys keep citing this tag after-the-fact...like "oh, no, but that should have the "alternate_species" tag"...well if nobody tags it then what good is it anyways?

This is the same issue we ran into with Partran (forum #219002) whose character has multiple forms.

I still think the best solution is to tag different forms as character_(form) plus an overarching tag of copyright:series or character:character.

UnusualParadox said:
TWYS allows us to tag stuff based on outside sources as long as there's no conflicting evidence.

It's Tag What You See not Tag What You Don't Not See. Outside sources should only be used for names. Species is an edge case though, especially hybrids, so it's okay to use shantae_(genie) for the humanoid form. But not for the others, Dyrone is correct that post #549411 should not be tagged shantae_(genie).

Dyrone said:
That doesn't change the fact that it's horribly misleading and weird to have a picture of a hedgehog Shantae with the tag "shantae_(genie_form)"...the tag loses all meaning at that point. If you're going to bother pointing out a specific form, it should show you ONLY that form.

I understand some characters have problem of their species being baked into their name...like "jake_the_dog". Shantae doesn't have that. She is just "Shantae"...there's no clarification needed...until you do something like call her "shantae_(genie_form)" and suddenly you've got problems.

Also I love that you guys keep citing this tag after-the-fact...like "oh, no, but that should have the "alternate_species" tag"...well if nobody tags it then what good is it anyways?

last paragraph's answer: blacklist/searching purposes. Vigilance practiced by taggers, and when people learn the tag exists they should follow suit and tag it.

Second paragraph's answer: what problem? It gets solved by alternate_species. The name is ignored if it implies a species; all canonical information involving species is ignored; the only thing considered is "is this one of the character's known forms? If no, alternate_species".

For the first paragraph's answer: if it's her default form, then no meaning is lost if alternate_species is tagged. You search with it, and you can only get her in another species; you blacklist it, and you can only get her in her genie species.

Et voila, the solution: if it is her in her normal form, use whatever name you call it. If it is her in something that isn't one of her forms, use that (the name) and alternate_species.

Siral_Exan said:
what problem? It gets solved by alternate_species. The name is ignored if it implies a species; all canonical information involving species is ignored; the only thing considered is "is this one of the character's known forms? If no, alternate_species".

That would be awesome except I'm guessing not everyone knows exactly what that tag means, hell, they don't seem to tag it. It's just some random tag lost in the jumble of other tags on a in a post's tag list. Thusly...it STILL would look weird to see a "shantae_(genie_form)" character tag on a post of a hedgehog Shantae (and apparently Leomole agrees with me on this).

I can't even answer the other stuff you said...the way you write just confuses me.

leomole said:
This is the same issue we ran into with Partran (forum #219002) whose character has multiple forms.

I don't think this is the same case though...because I'm guessing that character can be either a red panda or a tiger...it isn't that he is one and transforms into the other. If he was always a red panda and sometimes decides to transform into a tiger...I would argue that only one qualifier would be needed. The tags would be simply "partan" and "partan_(tiger)"...because we can assume partan will always be a red panda.

This is the case I'm trying to make with Shantae...she is a genie...making a shantae_(genie) tag feels redundant. So what I'm saying is she has a main form with a group of sub-forms. If you guys want to treat that the same as the Partan case where both forms are of equal importance that's fine, but just know there is a difference.

It doesn't matter why exactly there are different forms. If a tag can be meaningfully and usefully subdivided using TWYS, it should be. In this case that tag is shantae and the subdivisions are shantae_(genie), shantae_(harpy) etc.

Dyrone said:
Wow, really? Are you going to keep pulling out technicalities? Just admit that the core idea that images exist where Shantae IS NOT a genie NOR one of her canon forms is a sound one.

Considering I already said that:

Furrin_Gok said:
alternate_species is also a tag. However, there could always be some much more questionable forms; if Shantae is drawn as a turtle, would that get the crab tag and alternate species? I would like to have the character tag separate from form for such potentials.

There you go, I mention an idea to something that I don't know if it exists or not, and bam, you find an example. This is why playing it safe beforehand is a good idea. Just because something does not exist yet or you just don't know it does doesn't mean we shouldn't do things smart.

Furrin_Gok said:
There you go, I mention an idea to something that I don't know if it exists or not, and bam, you find an example. This is why playing it safe beforehand is a good idea. Just because something does not exist yet or you just don't know it does doesn't mean we shouldn't do things smart.

The difference is I postulated that a certain image probably exists, then I went out and actually found that to be the case. Your example is still purely hypothetical. I think it's perfectly fine to assume certain tag combinations will be unlikely to arise. The idea of Shantae crossing over with Aladdin's Genie is not far fetched to me because people enjoy putting like with like. On the other hand, the idea of her doing it in a form other than her typical genie form seems like an edge case that's not worth worrying over.

It's one of those "cross that bridge when we come to it" kinda things...why spend time adding a tag...enforcing a tag...that's not needed and might not ever be needed? When it becomes a problem like "omg I searched "shantae genie" and got a TON of images of Monkey Shantae in an Aladdin crossover!" Then you got yourself a problem, but that's not the case.

Dyrone said:
The difference is I postulated that a certain image probably exists, then I went out and actually found that to be the case. Your example is still purely hypothetical. I think it's perfectly fine to assume certain tag combinations will be unlikely to arise. The idea of Shantae crossing over with Aladdin's Genie is not far fetched to me because people enjoy putting like with like. On the other hand, the idea of her doing it in a form other than her typical genie form seems like an edge case that's not worth worrying over.

It's one of those "cross that bridge when we come to it" kinda things...why spend time adding a tag...enforcing a tag...that's not needed and might not ever be needed? When it becomes a problem like "omg I searched "shantae genie" and got a TON of images of Monkey Shantae in an Aladdin crossover!" Then you got yourself a problem, but that's not the case.

because the minimal time spent planning & adding such tags guarantees that problems like that never occur

Dyrone said:
The difference is I postulated that a certain image probably exists, then I went out and actually found that to be the case. Your example is still purely hypothetical.

There's no difference between these, actually. An actually reasonable scenario to happen is an actually reasonable one. Just because something reasonable doesn't exist yet doesn't mean it's a bad example, no matter how many times you try to use that argument.

I think it's perfectly fine to assume certain tag combinations will be unlikely to arise. The idea of Shantae crossing over with Aladdin's Genie is not far fetched to me because people enjoy putting like with like. On the other hand, the idea of her doing it in a form other than her typical genie form seems like an edge case that's not worth worrying over.

"Like with Like." Monkey with monkey. Replacements of like-characters are a common thing, as well, but my point was more the general idea on this one, than the specifics. It happens quite a lot that characters with multiple forms are shown with another character who's species happens to be one of those forms.

It's one of those "cross that bridge when we come to it" kinda things...why spend time adding a tag...enforcing a tag...that's not needed and might not ever be needed?

"Cross that bridge when we come to it" is a horrible reason to avoid doing something. If you can preemptively protect against something reasonable, why not protect against it? Say you move into a city where there are reports of break-ins. Just because those break-ins haven't ever occured in the block you're moving to, do you think it's a good idea to not get a security system in place until they do?
Quit focusing on a specific example used and think about the bigger picture.

FibS said:
Okay, lemme adjust it a bit.

If we instead use shantae (character) | shantae (crab form), you can search for shantae_(* and it should have the same result without an awkward tag for her normal form

Looked back into it and no, this wouldn't work. The copyright tag, after all, uses shantae_(series).