Does anyone notice a lot of people who can't draw will complain about things in art or about the artist in general very frequently?

I mean damn, most of the time you are getting the art for free to look at, and that artist spent many many hours perfecting the piece and their craft to make it, and people will still complain. Kind of scares me. It's like they think artists need to be absolutely perfect and cater to them exactly o-O

Just a thing i've noticed. Anyone else?

In my opinion, there is too little complaining about art, because usually the artist can't handle critique, or the fans refuse to give it.

Ozelot said:
Does anyone notice a lot of people who can't draw will complain about things in art or about the artist in general very frequently?

Since when do you have to be a master chef to know when a dish is tasty?

Peekaboo said:
Since when do you have to be a master chef to know when a dish is tasty?

You don't. But in order to technically digest it, you need to have the skill to understand the techniques that made it. You can't just say "I think this is bad. It needs to be fixed." You need to explain how, using precise technical terms.

Otherwise it's not critique, it's just complaining.

Also, not all things that people think are "mistakes" in art actually are. This is the main thing that plebeians don't recognize that true artists do. Egon Schile for example may be someone that a non-artist would say is bad because he doesn't "draw the bodies correctly" but from a technical stand point, an experienced artist will recognize that he had ability.

This is why non-drawers usually fail.

Ozelot said:
Otherwise it's not critique, it's just complaining.

Guess it's complaining then, but eh, doubt Rajii will ever read comments about his work posted on sites other than where he post them himself, so in the end it doesn't really matter if peeps are just bitching for the hell of it.

And after all, we're talking about anthropomorphic animals doing each other up the butt, not the most serious issue.

You can have understanding without having skill.
Unless you think that a trained artist who develops a disability preventing him from creating art before creating anything of his own loses the ability to know what is quality in art.

Also, the idea that art quality is only discernible by the truly artistic is pure hubris, and anyone who believes it is a pompous buffoon.
True art evokes emotion, and anyone capable of emotion is capable of understanding it.

Halite said:
You can have understanding without having skill.
Unless you think that a trained artist who develops a disability preventing him from creating art before creating anything of his own loses the ability to know what is quality in art.

Also, the idea that art quality is only discernible by the truly artistic is pure hubris, and anyone who believes it is a pompous buffoon.
True art evokes emotion, and anyone capable of emotion is capable of understanding it.

Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify complaining about free shit.

Ozelot said:
Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify complaining about free shit.

Might be true, if I ever actually complained, but I don't.

post #440352

People feel entitled to that kind of stuff. They do it on webcomic forums, they do it on youtube, they do it everywhere and they always will. In their eyes, whoever drew a picture only exists as an artist, because that’s all they really know about the person. They feel the artist has to devote their life to producing more, regardless of whether the artist has another career or even if the artist doesn't get paid for it.

You don't have to be a doctor to have a general idea where an anus goes, or to know that certain parts of the body just don't bend/work the way that people draw them sometimes.
There is a level of common sense and experience with perception that most people have, and that tends to come out in constructive criticism, it's not just whining.

Ozelot said:
Does anyone notice a lot of people who can't draw will complain about things in art or about the artist in general very frequently?

1. A lot of people should be classified as "people who can't draw". Period. Do artists only draw for themselves and other artists? If an artists opens their works up to the public, they should expect many, many, many uninformed opinions about their works.

2. Not even on e621 do I think people complain about art or artists "very frequently", if comments are any indication.

I mean damn, most of the time you are getting the art for free to look at, and that artist spent many many hours perfecting the piece and their craft to make it, and people will still complain. Kind of scares me. It's like they think artists need to be absolutely perfect and cater to them exactly o-O

3. I don't like it when someone presumes to know the intent or thought process behind what someone else said online. Most complaints with very little context or explanation should probably just be taken as expressions of preference or minimum standards.

Ozelot said:
You don't. But in order to technically digest it, you need to have the skill to understand the techniques that made it. You can't just say "I think this is bad. It needs to be fixed." You need to explain how, using precise technical terms.

Otherwise it's not critique, it's just complaining.

4. That's not how the world works (see: anything related to I.T., which is far more quantifiable than art). Those expectations are unreasonable of the general populace. If we follow through with that logic, then perhaps blanket praise à la hugboxes should also be rejected because it is very inarticulate and demonstrates no expertise whatsoever? Overreaching now, we might as well do away with upvotes and downvotes unless a member is a critic certified by a body of their peers.

5. A content creator can always ask specific individuals to explain their complaints, perhaps transforming those complaints into critique in the process. Similarly, a content creator can also explain their decisions to reach an understanding. I would go so far as to say that both parties have a certain social obligation to respond to the other in good faith, even though that's often not feasible or desirable.

Also, not all things that people think are "mistakes" in art actually are. This is the main thing that plebeians don't recognize that true artists do. Egon Schile for example may be someone that a non-artist would say is bad because he doesn't "draw the bodies correctly" but from a technical stand point, an experienced artist will recognize that he had ability.

6. Firstly, I don't like the subjective label of "true artists". Its implications present a slippery slope, and I quite honestly believe that many who consider themselves "true artists" sadly might not qualify under proper scrutiny (otherwise the term loses much of its meaning and therefore value).

7. If a supposed mistake was actually intended, but still drew enough attention to itself such that it comprises a viewer's enjoyment of the overall work, then we can argue that the non-mistake, while somewhat technically sound, did not achieve its fully intended effect--quite the opposite, really. Don't artists want to know whether their "intended mistakes" succeeded or perhaps require even further refined technique in later works?

8. I strongly suspect most furries want to see mostly believable, accurate, or authentic renditions of anthropomorphic or feral characters, even more so when the subject matter is pornographic. So, as far as furry art is concerned, I think it's reasonable to expect more complaints than normal about perceived mistakes.

This is why non-drawers usually fail.

9. At? [insert snide remark repurposing quoted statement to indirectly reflect the quoted]. Again, many people do not draw seriously.

Ozelot said:
Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify complaining about free shit.

10. Experience, some education, and the capacity to leverage them can greatly overcome deficiencies in skill. I do concede that master creators of any trade can uniquely discern and appreciate the technical quality in their peers' works. However, one absolutely does not require technical prowess to accurately judge and grade the quality of a work. Case in point is just about anyone working in antiques and antiquities. We expect them to spot quality, not reproduce it.

11. Free work, even charitable work, is not automatically beyond reproach. Perhaps free work is worth a certain moral currency, but that doesn't remove the work from scrutiny. On balance, we could say free work buys or bribes the silencing of criticism.

Anyway, of this entire post, I only had a minor investment in #4. I hope to never revisit these issues in future threads. :/

This topic reeks of Furaffinity commenting praxis.

If people don't complain about art, it doesn't evolve; it stagnates.
Even irrelevant, inaccurate or incorrect opinions can influence art direction for the better (or for the worse, which may still technically be considered an evolution).

The fact we're having this discussion for the Nᵗʰ time ever just shows some people don't quite grasp the concept.

Actini-89 said:
This topic reeks of Furaffinity commenting praxis.

That's probably more accurate than you actually intended it to be, because what we're dealing with here is an artist who has hidden approximately three quarters of the comments on his/her FA gallery.

The fact we're having this discussion for the Nᵗʰ time ever just shows some people don't quite grasp the concept.

And that absolutely seems to be the case here.

When it comes to taste, especially in art (like music, pictures, movies etc.) it´s not necessary to know everything about it.

I can´t draw, does it mean I don´t have the right to point out a arm that has an unnatural angle or say that I like a picture but something seems wrong in my opinion ?

And critique from people with no clue about art or drawing shows the artists if the public understands the picture or not. Critique is also one of the most important informations an artist can get, without it it´s hard to improve skills, the technique s/he uses and in the end the pictures.

Beside that, we humans have sense for aesthetic. Symmetry is the most important part of it, the Golden ratio is a good example, too. Things that looks unintentional unnatural also are disconcerting for people.

Means that somebody without any talent for art can tell if something is wrong with a picture to a certain point.

As long as it´s explained whats wrong about the art/pictue, it´s only helping the artist to improve.

Whenever I hear "You couldn't do better so stop complaining!" I'm caught between laughing and wanting to punch something. This idea is wrong on three accounts.

1. You don't know me. As it happens, I can draw, and it's very possible I could do better.
2. If I could do better, would that mean THEN I can insult art? Does talent give you a license to be an asshole?
3. As many others have said, you don't need to be an artist to be an art critique. This is why people are professional critiques. I don't know anything about directing, but I know Michael Bay is a terrible director.
I think what's weird here is this mentality only seems to occur in internet sub-cultures (like furries or youtube communities). I can go to an art gallery and talk shit about everything I see. People might disagree but no one will say I have no right to opinion.

Please admire my restraint for not violently insulting anyone while writing this! I nearly did on several occasions!

Actini-89 said:
This topic reeks of Furaffinity commenting praxis.

If people don't complain about art, it doesn't evolve; it stagnates.
Even irrelevant, inaccurate or incorrect opinions can influence art direction for the better (or for the worse, which may still technically be considered an evolution).

The fact we're having this discussion for the Nᵗʰ time ever just shows some people don't quite grasp the concept.

If you didn't pay any money for some piece of art to be made, you pretty much never contributed anything to the artist or the development of their work. Stop taking credit for their talent. I basically don't listen to the "critique" of non-artists and artists who aren't at least as good as me any more because everything they say is useless.

Jugofthat said:
That's probably more accurate than you actually intended it to be, because what we're dealing with here is an artist who has hidden approximately three quarters of the comments on his/her FA gallery.

And that absolutely seems to be the case here.

Main reason I do that is to hear wild assumptions like this :3

Besides, at least three quarters of comments on FA are just "yiff, murr, wow" one liners that no one should waste time looking at anyway. I kind of wish they'd just let you disable comments.

Ozelot said:
If you didn't pay any money for some piece of art to be made, you pretty much never contributed anything to the artist or the development of their work. Stop taking credit for their talent. I basically don't listen to the "critique" of non-artists and artists who aren't at least as good as me any more because everything they say is useless.

Pride comes before a fall

That´s the difference between a good and a bad artist. Good artists listen to every serious critique before they decide to change something or not to do so. If people tell the artist what seems odd, disturbing or somehow wrong, they contribute the artist with information.

BTW, how do you know an artist is better then you? Is it based on statistics or more your own opinion?

And who forces you to upload your art for free? Put a pricetag on it if it´s that good.

Ozelot said:
If you didn't pay any money for some piece of art to be made, you pretty much never contributed anything to the artist or the development of their work. Stop taking credit for their talent.

=/

So if I happen to have thrown money at you before giving my uninformed, peasant opinion, that suddenly would make it worthwhile? You're basically saying a dollar bill helps your art progress more than the most well-meant advice.

I basically don't listen to the "critique" of non-artists and artists who aren't at least as good as me any more because everything they say is useless.

And that attitude will only serve to make you look like a snobby arse.

Of course people who come storming in with some hateful oneliner can get tiresome, though it's true that even harsh criticism that's lacking in proper arguments can sometimes still be useful in its own way, but I find it a bit shocking that you're actually saying that anyone without artistic credentials will only be able to offer advice of that level.

Artist or not, people still have a basic knowledge of anatomy. They're still that second pair of eyes that may spot flaws you didn't notice yourself, and some may even be smart enough (or inately gifted enough, which is something else than practiced) to think up a way or two to solve these problems instead. You're thinking entirely too black and white.

https://e621.net/post/show/523707

Just for example, yesterday I took a little time out of my day to offer some friendly, supportive critique, and gave it enough thought before writing it down to make it actually worth a damn to some artist (or colorist in this case) who possibly doesn't even visit here. It's very possible that an actual professional would be able to go into detail much more than I did there, but I deem it safe to say only a fool would dismiss it as entirely useless rubbish.

Are you that fool, then?

D4rk said:
Pride comes before a fall

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." -John Milton, 17th century. Paradise Lost.

That´s the difference between a good and a bad artist. Good artists listen to every serious critique before they decide to change something or not to do so. If people tell the artist what seems odd, disturbing or somehow wrong, they contribute the artist with information.

So what do you define as "serious critique" because just bitching and saying stuff like "Oh god I hate this, the colors are just wrong. I'm not even going to explain why or get any art talent to articulate that, I'm just going to express my uneducated opinion." isn't serious. It's just internet asshattery.

BTW, how do you know an artist is better then you? Is it based on statistics or more your own opinion?

Mostly if they make more money than me and are more popular. However, I can get statistical or technically examine their work for flaws pretty easily to tell as well. In fact, I know there's a lot of artists that are more popular than others that are TERRIBLE by comparison. But as a general rule, if someone is very popular and can easily sell their work for hundreds, their opinion is valid.

And who forces you to upload your art for free? Put a pricetag on it if it´s that good.

I never said it was. But people who don't contribute are still not worth listening to.

Jugofthat said:
So if I happen to have thrown money at you before giving my uninformed, peasant opinion, that suddenly would make it worthwhile? You're basically saying a dollar bill helps your art progress more than the most well-meant advice.

Basically, yes. It allows that artist to eat.

And that attitude will only serve to make you look like a snobby arse.

I don't care what people think of me.

Of course people who come storming in with some hateful oneliner can get tiresome, though it's true that even harsh criticism that's lacking in proper arguments can sometimes still be useful in its own way, but I find it a bit shocking that you're actually saying that anyone without artistic credentials will only be able to offer advice of that level.

Artist or not, people still have a basic knowledge of anatomy. They're still that second pair of eyes that may spot flaws you didn't notice yourself, and some may even be smart enough (or inately gifted enough, which is something else than practiced) to think up a way or two to solve these problems instead. You're thinking entirely too black and white.

https://e621.net/post/show/523707

Just for example, yesterday I took a little time out of my day to offer friendly, supportive critique, and gave it enough thought before actually writing it down to make it actually worth a damn to some artist (or colorist in this case) who possibly doesn't even visit here. It's very possible that an actual professional would be able to go into detail much more than I did there, but only a fool would dismiss it as entirely useless rubbish.

Are you that fool, then?

Well at least you typed up a few paragraphs instead of a couple sentences or less that was filled with typoes. I didn't really bother reading your critique, but that's better than that at least.

However, if you were really hardcore and cared about the artist and their art you would have typed up 1000+ words and gone really in depth, done research, etc. And if you had technical ability yourself it would vastly improve your ability to critique the work.

The thing is, the artist probably spent many many hours on just that piece alone, not including all the time and practice they had to spend to get to the level of ability needed to even make that piece. If you can't match their level of dedication, then acting like you went out of your way is just funny to me.

All you did was type a few paragraphs, and thought it out a little bit. I'm not that impressed. You apparently haven't seen what REAL critique is in a formal art setting.

Ozelot said:
Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify complaining about free shit.

Just to make things clear:

1) If it's free than you can't complain is not an argument. There are a lot of posts getting deleted because they weren't meeting the quality standards. We all have the right to an opinion, because this is our community.

2) If somebody can't complain because he is not an artist, he should not be able to praise the art as well. Is simple logic, if you can't tell bad art, you can't be able to spot good ones either.

3) You can agree or disagree with others by voting on their comments.

This is about post #524417, isn't it?
post #524417

In my opinion is far worse and disrespectful to start a pointless discussion in a post than to have a honest critique about it. Post comments were created to talk about the posts and nothing else.

I understand how you feel frustrated. You fall in love with some beautiful art and somebody point out something in a seemingly flawless piece of art. And now you can't unsee it!

Ozelot said:
I kind of wish they'd just let you disable comments.

Here is a solution. Go to your settings and set your comment threshold to 200. This way you won't find any unpleasant complains anymore.

Actini-89 said:
If people don't complain about art, it doesn't evolve; it stagnates.
Even irrelevant, inaccurate or incorrect opinions can influence art direction

This is my view too, I prefer to know what's wrong with my art so I can use the information to improve.

Like I said in another forum, even the harshest of comments can have useful tips hidden in it if you know where to look.

Ozelot said:

So what do you define as "serious critique" because just bitching and saying stuff like "Oh god I hate this, the colors are just wrong. I'm not even going to explain why or get any art talent to articulate that, I'm just going to express my uneducated opinion." isn't serious. It's just internet asshattery.

Correct, and this is a part of the internet you just have to deal with. But just saying that critique in general is wothless when it comes from "nobodies" is plain wrong. Serious Critique: What is wrong, why it does look wrong, if possible how to fix it.

Mostly if they make more money than me and are more popular. However, I can get statistical or technically examine their work for flaws pretty easily to tell as well. In fact, I know there's a lot of artists that are more popular than others that are TERRIBLE by comparison. But as a general rule, if someone is very popular and can easily sell their work for hundreds, their opinion is valid.

Lets say they have the same opinion as you, would better artists talk to you then? And what happens when everything is influenced by the mainstream is pretty well visible in the music industry.

Also, you set opinion equal to the earnings of somebody. Reminds me somehow of >this<

I never said it was. But people who don't contribute are still not worth listening to.

Again, then sell your art or stop upload stuff on sites with comment function.

How many people said, everybody has a sense for art. Money doesn´t improve it. Instead of charging money for an online audience with an artist, you should be lucky that some people gives advices for free.

The thing that most Furries saw stuff from good and bad artists also give some practice to tell what looks good and what not.

"Honest critique is the best way for improvement" how we say here in Germany

Ozelot said:
If you can't match their level of dedication, then acting like you went out of your way is just funny to me.

All you did was type a few paragraphs, and thought it out a little bit. I'm not that impressed. You apparently haven't seen what REAL critique is in a formal art setting.

Heh, what? I never said you should be impressed, because it's indeed too simple and short to be impressive. I said it's worth listening to, like everything that's at least more than a 'I dun like this because this shape is stoopid'.

It was just meant as a small example of decently helpful comments by non-artists as a way of pointing out they exist, I didn't mean to use it for tooting my own horn. Just couldn't think of someone else's on the fly.

And of course I'm not going to write down a 1000+ word behemoth in the comment section of an image board, I also have to consider the others here who would experience a text wall like that as disruptive.

My. All things considered, are you actually being this unlikeable on purpose? :|

D4rk said:
Lets say they have the same opinion as you, would better artists talk to you then?

Usually? No. That's why they don't. They don't care. I don't really expect them to. When I reach their level I wouldn't care either.

And what happens when everything is influenced by the mainstream is pretty well visible in the music industry.

Is that a bad thing?

Also, you set opinion equal to the earnings of somebody. Reminds me somehow of >this<]

Well that's capitalism today. Money = Authority.

Again, then sell your art or stop upload stuff on sites with comment function.

I can do it however I want. If I could get picked up by a paysite or something then I will.

How many people said, everybody has a sense for art. Money doesn´t improve it. Instead of charging money for an online audience with an artist, you should be lucky that some people gives advices for free.

Money DOES improve it, because it improves the living quality of the artist at the time. The happier the artist, the better their work will be. I don't see how artists need to be thankful and feel "lucky" because of a bunch of uneducated internet jerks criticizing them because they gave their stuff away for free.

The thing that most Furries saw stuff from good and bad artists also give some practice to tell what looks good and what not.

"Honest critique is the best way for improvement" how we say here in Germany

Most furries can't type a coherent sentence... Most of them are teenagers. Let alone can they provide honest, well-thought out critique.

Ozelot said:
Usually? No. That's why they don't. They don't care. I don't really expect them to. When I reach their level I wouldn't care either.

I can do it however I want. If I could get picked up by a paysite or something then I will.

Does these sentences imply that your art isn´t good enough to ignore the opinions of the "uneducated internet jerks" ?

Is that a bad thing?

Depends on how you define "bad"

Well that's capitalism today. Money = Authority.

So you should listen to the people´s opinions, because they give you the money if I´m not wrong. Also listening to guys who didn´t pay yet is marketing for future customers (Marketing 101). Ever heared of PR? (This isn´t good one in this thread)

Money DOES improve it, because it improves the living quality of the artist at the time. The happier the artist, the better their work will be. I don't see how artists need to be thankful and feel "lucky" because of a bunch of uneducated internet jerks criticizing them because they gave their stuff away for free.

Read the posts, it helps to improve minor mistakes in the art. As Example, you could look at the game War Thunder, Free to play and in Beta stage. When there´s a bug the community reports it to the developers who fixes it.

Most furries can't type a coherent sentence... Most of them are teenagers. Let alone can they provide honest, well-thought out critique.

When I look at all the posts here, I see much "well-thought critique".

And if you don´t like the fandom, why are you doing/defending art of this fandom?

Ozelot said:
I can do it however I want. If I could get picked up by a paysite or something then I will.

Except no paysite of some reputation is going to offer you a spot because you aren't good enough, so you currently can't do it however you want. How do you get better? Practice, and by listening to whatever useful critique you can get, even if that means having to wade through a sea of shit.

Just disabling or instantly removing comments altogether (AKA the artist equivalent of stuffing your ears and going "la la la I can't hear you") will to some extent hamper your progress.

By the way, perhaps you're just uploading in the wrong place. I mean, FA is kinda known for its immature userbase filled with hugboxers and trolls, with little in between. It would give me a sour impression of the fandom's ability for decent critique too. Weasyl for instance seems like a site for the slighty more serious 'furry connoiseur'.

Anyone else know of something better? Those places should exist.

D4rk said:
Does these sentences imply that your art isn´t good enough to ignore the opinions of the "uneducated internet jerks" ?
Depends on how you define "bad"

Sure, okay, my art sucks. Though that doesn't make a difference whether I want to ignore their opinions or not.

So you should listen to the people´s opinions, because they give you the money if I´m not wrong. Also listening to guys who didn´t pay yet is marketing for future customers (Marketing 101). Ever heared of PR? (This isn´t good one in this thread)

If someone commissions me and gives me money, yeah I'd listen to them. But otherwise, I don't waste my time. Worrying about "marketing" and "PR" is pointless.

Read the posts, it helps to improve minor mistakes in the art. As Example, you could look at the game War Thunder, Free to play and in Beta stage. When there´s a bug the community reports it to the developers who fixes it.

Only if the critique is actually useful. 99% of the time, it isn't. Not enough effort is put into it, because people are lazy and just want to complain about free things.

And if you don´t like the fandom, why are you doing/defending art of this fandom?

You assume a lot of things that I never said... o-O

Jugofthat said:
Except no paysite of some reputation is going to offer you a spot because you aren't good enough, so you currently can't do it however you want. How do you get better? Practice, and by listening to whatever useful critique you can get, even if that means having to wade through a sea of shit.

Never said I was. But what that person said was basically "Oh, you don't like hearing stupid comments? Well just stop making art and go away then!" so no, I'm not going to do that. Unfortunately, I've never gotten useful critique from people who actually know what they're talking about.

Just disabling or instantly removing comments altogether (AKA the artist equivalent of stuffing your ears and going "la la la I can't hear you") will to some extent hamper your progress.

There's more than one way to make progress.

By the way, perhaps you're just uploading in the wrong place. I mean, FA is kinda known for its immature userbase filled with hugboxers and trolls, with little in between. It would give me a sour impression of the fandom's ability for decent critique too. Weasyl for instance seems like a site for the slighty more serious 'furry connoiseur'.

Weasyl... A site no one uses. Sure, that's a great place to upload and get "noticed."

Anyone else know of something better? Those places should exist.

They don't, though. FA and this site, and a couple image boards are pretty much all there is. In furry, popularity and the raw amount of stuff you upload is pretty much all the matters in the long-run game. Lots and lots of porn that gets clicks is the key to everything.

Ozelot said:
Sure, okay, my art sucks. Though that doesn't make a difference whether I want to ignore their opinions or not.

And here comes the "critique helps to improve the art" thing. And like DragonFox69 said

even the harshest of comments can have useful tips hidden in it if you know where to look

If someone commissions me and gives me money, yeah I'd listen to them. But otherwise, I don't waste my time. Worrying about "marketing" and "PR" is pointless.

You realize that your art is advertising for you, right? If your art stays at a -/+ level because you don´t listen to advices, it could keep people away from paying for commissions. So, marketing is very important

You assume a lot of things that I never said... o-O

Most furries can't type a coherent sentence... Most of them are teenagers. Let alone can they provide honest, well-thought out critique.

Sounds like a complaint about the fandom in general for me

D4rk said:
And here comes the "critique helps to improve the art" thing. And like DragonFox69 said

Again, only if effort is put into that critique to make it more than nothing other than a fart in the wind. Saying a couple of paragraphs and just bitching about the art is basically not worth reading.

You realize that your art is advertising for you, right? If your art stays at a -/+ level because you don´t listen to advices, it could keep people away from paying for commissions. So, marketing is very important

The nice thing about art is that... As long as you keep making it, you have a good chance of improving, even if you don't listen to anybody at all. If you were an artist on my level, you'd know this very well and would have seen it with your own eyes.

Does critique help? Yes. If it's from a person who is significantly more skilled than you, and it is delivered in a way you can understand the critique. Most random people on the internet are incapable of this.

I can improve pretty easily without listening to anybody at this point. I know how to practice and see what I've done wrong with my work. The only time it helps me when someone gives critique is if they are vastly more skilled than me, and have actually done it before.

Sounds like a complaint about the fandom in general for me

So?

Ozelot

Well you have your opinion, we have ours. It´s up to you to take the advices in this thread or ignore them.

Since nobody else seems to care about his anymore, I say goodbye

The irony in the title is gold.

D4rk said:
Well you have your opinion, we have ours. It´s up to you to take the advices in this thread or ignore them.

Since nobody else seems to care about his anymore, I say goodbye

No advice here, really.

Ozelot said:
No advice here, really.

On the contrary, his advice was to stop complaining because no one here agrees with you, and no one is changing their mind.
Mildly ironic really, given your attitude.

Halite said:
On the contrary, his advice was to stop complaining because no one here agrees with you, and no one is changing their mind.
Mildly ironic really, given your attitude.

People here are stubborn when presented with opinions that they don't understand and don't follow the same as everyone else. Just because not everyone agrees doesn't mean it's not true though. I do realize most people here probably hate artists and expect them to just shut up and give them free art, but want to be able to complain about it all they want.

I just felt like saying something out-of-the-norm. I know most people would probably attack me and get angry about it. It's expected. But I don't have to stop talking about it.

Ozelot said:
No advice here, really.

Beg you pardon? It's been nothing but advice, just perhaps not what you wanted to hear.

I do realize most people here probably hate artists and expect them to just shut up and give them free art, but want to be able to complain about it all they want.

lolwut.jpg

Anyway, I'm done.

Ozelot said:
People here are stubborn when presented with opinions that they don't understand and don't follow the same as everyone else. Just because not everyone agrees doesn't mean it's not true though. I do realize most people here probably hate artists and expect them to just shut up and give them free art, but want to be able to complain about it all they want.

No, look, you're making it worse. The stubborn person is you, not everyone else. No one is saying they expect free art. People are saying they're entitled to judge things, regardless of how it's presented.
No one here hates artists. No one here hates art. You're acting like a moron. :V

elad said:
No, look, you're making it worse. The stubborn person is you, not everyone else. No one is saying they expect free art. People are saying they're entitled to judge things, regardless of how it's presented.
No one here hates artists. No one here hates art. You're acting like a moron. :V

Nobody here hates artists? Are you sure about that...?

(Don't know why you're calling me a moron for trying to discuss this.)

Ozelot said:
Nobody here hates artists? Are you sure about that...?

(Don't know why you're calling me a moron for trying to discuss this.)

Well, I don't know every person here so no, I don't know that for sure. However, given it's an art site you'd have to be stupid or insane to be here if you didn't like it. So it's a good bet that at leas 90% of the people here are art supporters.

Ozelot said:
Nobody here hates artists? Are you sure about that...?

(Don't know why you're calling me a moron for trying to discuss this.)

No one here hates all artists.
A lot of people here are starting to hate you because of this thread though.

Protip: You are not all artists.
Thank god.

Halite said:
No one here hates all artists.
A lot of people here are starting to hate you because of this thread though.

Protip: You are not all artists.
Thank god.

Okay, I get it, you hate me because I have a different opinion than you and don't agree with you. I don't know why, because I haven't attacked you or anything.

Just seems people around here are very judgmental of artists, maybe hate isn't the right word. They expect a lot of them, when really, most artists are giving away what they have for free.

Ozelot said:
Okay, I get it, you hate me because I have a different opinion than you and don't agree with you. I don't know why, because I haven't attacked you or anything.

I don't think it's so much the opinion as it is the somewhat haughty attitude that bothers people. It kind of shuts the door for a friendly discussion after a while.

Jugofthat said:
I don't think it's so much the opinion as it is the somewhat haughty attitude that bothers people. It kind of shuts the door for a friendly discussion after a while.

What haughty attitude? :\

Most people in here were trying to imply all sorts of things about me. Trying to say "Your art must be bad." "Maybe you're just not good enough." "Your opinion isn't as good as ours because we don't agree with you." "This person hides comments so they must love censorship." "Everyone is going to hate you because of this thread."

Goes both ways. Like I said: Judgemental userbase is judgemental.

Ozelot said:
Okay, I get it, you hate me because I have a different opinion than you and don't agree with you. I don't know why, because I haven't attacked you or anything.

Just seems people around here are very judgmental of artists, maybe hate isn't the right word. They expect a lot of them, when really, most artists are giving away what they have for free.

Well, for that, let's talk about motivations. Why do artsits make art? Every artist has their reasons, but most would agree that if your answer is 'to be popular' it somewhat cheapens the end result.
Some artists do it for money, but most would probably give an answer something along the lines of 'to express myself' or 'because I love art'. It's a labour of love! This in no way, shape or form requires them to share their art, but most of them do. Why's that?

A few of them are only looking for tips on how to improve. These guys are in the minority. If that's really *all* they want, they'll probably try to exclude non-artists somehow. The only other reason you might do this is to make other people happy!
How nice! But you don't just want to put it up somewhere and then ignore it. How will you know how much people like it? You want people to be vocal about your art!

Now, this is where things get more diverse. There are a few (far too many, in my opinion) artists who *only* want to hear praise of their work. Why this is, I cannot fathom. No one *ever* got better by only hearing good things, and a few have even managed to get worse.
Regardless, let's suppose you're an artist and you put your art in a public place. Not by a select group, but in a place where anyone can see it. Now let's suppose I saw your art and I didn't like it. "I don't like that!" I might say. Now is it wrong for me to say that? If so, you might seriously want to re-consider putting your art in a public place where people can voice their opinions.
Do I feel entitled to the art piece you made? Of course not. I completely respect your labour and your decision to expose it to the world. I may even be grateful for your decision to do so. However, that doesn't affect me. The presentation is a public one and you made a concious decision to put it there. Therefore, you must be willing to deal with the consequences of public opinion.

This is why we have a DNP list, for artists who *don't* like public opinion. You seem very sure that you're getting a lot of negativity because we're all backing each other up and forming one hateful entity. Have you considered that each of use might have individually decided we don't like what your saying, and gave separate arguments against your points?
If you can't handle strangers saying what they think, you shouldn't ask strangers what their opinions are.

An alternative would be that the only people allowed to have negative opinions would be people who have paid to see it. If this is what you consider to be a good idea...

... Well, to give the short and polite version, it isn't.

Ozelot said:
(Don't know why you're calling me a moron for trying to discuss this.)

It's been a pretty one-way conversation with you in this thread, wouldn't call that discussing things.

Peekaboo said:
It's been a pretty one-way conversation with you in this thread, wouldn't call that discussing things.

So the go-to way of this site is if an artist expresses an opinion different from the users around here, they gang up and call them a moron.

Ozelot said:
So the go-to way of this site is if an artist expresses an opinion different from the users around here, they gang up and call them a moron.

*gives up on rationality*

This is not a standard go-to. It's really just you. Enjoy! :D

EDIT: As I mentioned earlier, we do have a DNP list on the site. Seeing as you can't seem to cope with your art being here, please consider adding your name to it.

elad said:
*gives up on rationality*

This is not a standard go-to. It's really just you. Enjoy! :D

EDIT: As I mentioned earlier, we do have a DNP list on the site. Seeing as you can't seem to cope with your art being here, please consider adding your name to it.

I heard this place doesn't really respect DNPs anyhow. I know you hate me and want me to leave, but it's okay. Part of being an artist is dealing with people who hate you for no reason other than because you gave them something nice for free to look at.

Ozelot said:
I heard this place doesn't really respect DNPs anyhow. I know you hate me and want me to leave, but it's okay. Part of being an artist is dealing with people who hate you for no reason other than because you gave them something nice for free to look at.

I will try to explain this as slowly and simply as I can.
Prior to your whining, no one hated you. People *started* hating you when you accused people of hating you, and for saying they should not be allowed to their opinion. At THAT point, people started hating you.

From one artist (me) to another (you), You're a moron.

NB. As an afterthought, you may be wondering, if I'm an artist, where's my work? I don't put it here! :D It's not that relevant to the site and I'm not super interested in hearing what people have to say about it. Fucking amazing, eh? So far, the only person uploading your art is you! If you stopped, I very much doubt other people would upload it on your behalf, much less in violation of the DNP.

Ozelot said:
What haughty attitude? :\

Are... are you serious?

Okay, I'll bite, how about the whole "Hut! People who aren't good artists themselves are basically nobodies who should be happy they're allowed to share my online oxygen" act? It's your choice to do something with critique or not, but blatantly saying watchers in general (even those that actually try to be helpful) just aren't worthy of your attention doesn't really sound that nice, does it?

And I don't care if that personally doesn't bother you; that's how it works for most other people. Just telling, brosef.

Oh, and things like "saying critique helps an artist is just you selfishly trying to take credit for their progress", or "unless you paid for something you're to keep your mouth shut", or "I didn't bother to read your critique, but it's not very long so you probably didn't really care that much". Yeah, not exactly making you come across as very amicable either.

These all aren't literal quotes but close enough, and that's pretty bad.

I mean, did you realize those non-artists also include most of us who, while admittedly still coming here mostly for a fun chat and a fap, do actually tend to approach this shit at least a bit more intelligently than the average mouth-breather on FA that annoys you? I don't know, but I felt like being disregarded as some irrelevant assclown myself a few times and I'm fairly sure that wasn't just me.

And that's why people start giving you a hard time, not because of your initial opinion, but because you have been defending it in an unpleasant way. Though yes, perhaps my remark about those hidden FA comments was unnecessary. Sorry for that.

elad said:
I will try to explain this as slowly and simply as I can.
Prior to your whining, no one hated you. People *started* hating you when you accused people of hating you, and for saying they should not be allowed to their opinion. At THAT point, people started hating you.

From one artist (me) to another (you), You're a moron.

You already said I was a moron... Just because I don't agree with you and share your opinion means I'm a moron? I never said that to you.

The moment people started hating me was when I expressed an opinion that didn't just go along with the rest of the majority.

Ozelot said:
You already said I was a moron... Just because I don't agree with you and share your opinion means I'm a moron? I never said that to you.

The moment people started hating me was when I expressed an opinion that didn't just go along with the rest of the majority.

Not true! Not true! Before, I said you were acting *like* a moron. Now I'm actually calling you one. :3

Guys, let's just stop feeding the troll.

Halite said:
Guys, let's just stop feeding the troll.

Tbh, calling him a troll just gives him ammo for playing the victim here.

elad said:
Not true! Not true! Before, I said you were acting *like* a moron. Now I'm actually calling you one. :3

Well, I think that's immature and hostile. Why? Again, I didn't do that to you. Is your intent to just troll off-topic?

Jugofthat said:
Tbh, calling him a troll gives him ammo for playing the victim here.

Just like a troll would.
His only activity on this website has been to create drama, as far as I'm concerned, that makes him a troll.

I've been in other discussions and shared my art here, so no, not really.

I think the trolls are people posting off topic and voting down all my pictures just because of a difference in opinion.

Ozelot said:
I've been in other discussions and shared my art here, so no, not really.

I think the trolls are people posting off topic and voting down all my pictures just because of a difference in opinion.

What IS your precious different opinion? That people should stop saying bad things? Tough titty! Let's move on!

Ozelot said:
I've been in other discussions and shared my art here, so no, not really.

I think the trolls are people posting off topic and voting down all my pictures just because of a difference in opinion.

Yes, you have:

Ozelot said:
post #166564

this thread in a nutshell

Ozelot said:
Time lapses are pointless drivel that tell you nothing.

And your average score on your comments is around a -7

You're either trolling, or just extremely rude without realizing it.

Edit: Also, all of your pictures have positive scores.

Halite said:
Yes, you have:
And your average score on your comments is around a -7

You're either trolling, or just extremely rude without realizing it.

No, don't you see? Ozelot is a precious angel and it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to be wrong about something. If his opinion is unpopular it's CLEARLY because of a huge conspiracy to thwart his creative spark that we secretly are all jealous of.
BLESSED ARE WE FOR BEHOLDING, EVEN FOR A MOMENT, HIS GLORY.

elad said:
No, don't you see? Ozelot is a precious angel and it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to be wrong about something. If his opinion is unpopular it's CLEARLY because of a huge conspiracy to thwart his creative spark that we secretly are all jealous of.
BLESSED ARE WE FOR BEHOLDING, EVEN FOR A MOMENT, HIS GLORY.

Or without moving into grand speech mode (:3), one could say he appears a bit socially inept.

You guys definitely aren't mad at me and just trolling me for stating my opinion or anything. :\

Sorry for not just being that artist who shuts up and gives you free shit to fap to?

You guys haven't caught on on it yet? No sense feeding the flame.

Ozelot said:
Sorry for not just being that artist who shuts up and gives you free shit to fap to?

http://www.furaffinity.net/gallery/ozelot/

But you are. :/

Peekaboo said:
You guys haven't caught on on it yet? No sense feeding the flame.

Well, that last comment did make it seem that way more than before. Y'know, the repeating of stuff you know will get a rise out of a few more people. Yeah.

Guess I'm done, then. Again.

Ozelot said:
You guys definitely aren't mad at me and just trolling me for stating my opinion or anything. :\

Sorry for not just being that artist who shuts up and gives you free shit to fap to?

Would it make you feel better if I said I had no intention of ever fapping to your art and your sense of anatomy and perspective is super off?

Like seriously, put your arms down by your sides. Your fingertips should be nearly by your knees, NOT your hips.

elad said:
... your sense of anatomy and perspective is super off?

Like Picasso.

elad said:
Would it make you feel better if I said I had no intention of ever fapping to your art and your sense of anatomy and perspective is super off?

Why don't you show me some of your art?

Ozelot said:
Why don't you show me some of your art?

Like I said, I'm not really interested in sharing my work on this site buuuuut I guess I could.

(The following links are temporary :V)
Graffiti I did in east London ages ago
A lil sketch in my notebook I liked :3
A lil turtle sculpture I made from half a football. It exploded in the kiln :C
'nother sketch I liked
Observation drawing of a fox in Canterbury

These are all super old! Gettin a lil rusty.

EDIT: Ah fuck! I forgot editing posts doesn't change quotes! D:

Calm yourselves before I use these keys *jingles keys*

TheHuskyK9 said:
Calm yourselves before I use these keys *jingles keys*

what does that even mean

TheHuskyK9 said:
Calm yourselves before I use these keys *jingles keys*

What? Now I'm actually interested in what he's gonna say! D: I'm a programmer now. Plus, he said "Why don't you show me some of your art?" That's like artist speak for "LET'S GO RIGHT NOW, BITCH."