elad said:
Like I said, I'm not really interested in sharing my work on this site buuuuut I guess I could.

(The following links are temporary :V)
Graffiti I did in east London ages ago
A lil sketch in my notebook I liked :3
A Watercolor contemporary piece about surveillance
'nother sketch I liked
Observation drawing of a fox in Canterbury

These are all super old! Gettin a lil rusty.

You're okay.

Ozelot said:
You're okay.

Thanks! There's no praise like grudging praise! :D

elad said:
Thanks! There's no praise like grudging praise! :D

I can look past anyone and see their art for what it is. I had to for my grades.

The main thing I learned is how critique and opinions can mean nothing, or everything. It really depends on the speaker.

Ozelot said:
I can look past anyone and see their art for what it is. I had to for my grades.

The main thing I learned is how critique and opinions can mean nothing, or everything. It really depends on the speaker.

Exactly! They can mean a great deal! Indeed, when I was in collage the teacher I liked the most is the one who gave me the hardest critique of all. And if people aren't allowed to give any, the only person who loses out is the artist.

elad said:
Exactly! They can mean a great deal! Indeed, when I was in collage the teacher I liked the most is the one who gave me the hardest critique of all. And if people aren't allowed to give any, the only person who loses out is the artist.

Well, maybe that's your experience.

I reached a point where I just ignore critique from people not at a certain level. It just stopped being helpful after awhile. But I don't like listening to praise either. Gets equally annoying.

Ozelot said:
Well, maybe that's your experience.

I reached a point where I just ignore critique from people not at a certain level. It just stopped being helpful after awhile. But I don't like listening to praise either. Gets equally annoying.

The problem here is you, not 'everyone'. Knowing what advice to listen to and what to ignore is a skill. And a worthwhile skill at that.
At the moment the advice everyone is giving you is 'stop complaining about this'. It's good advice.

Ozelot said:
I heard this place doesn't really respect DNPs anyhow.

We delete anything that is on the DNP list, period.

There may sometimes be stuff that slips through but this is mostly because some people don't properly tag the artist, making it not show up in our list.

elad said:
A lil turtle sculpture I made from half a football. It exploded in the kiln :C

I'd buy one, if it was available.

Ozelot said:
Well, maybe that's your experience.

I reached a point where I just ignore critique from people not at a certain level. It just stopped being helpful after awhile. But I don't like listening to praise either. Gets equally annoying.

I don't think that the main problem is getting an experienced person to comment, but a sincere one.

Some people just want to point out worse of every post just because they are in a bad mood or because they don't know how to use the blacklist.

Start commenting on other people's posts. Maybe with that the non-artists members of this site (including me) could learn something.

Remember that the bad art is deleted in this site. So if find some negative comment on a post, even an exaggerated one, consider it just a minor nuisance.

elad said:

Observation drawing of a fox in Canterbury

These are all super old! Gettin a lil rusty.

Nonetheless I adore that fox. I liked the other sketches too. If you ever changed your mind and started uploading some like that fox here, then (if I saw it) I would favorite it. It is exactly the kind of art that makes me unreasonably happy and that I enjoy looking it. Reminds me of a few illustrators I adored when I was growing up and would stare at their work for hours even now. I love all the sense of motion, texture and bits of character that's in it. All the while it's also visually interesting and understated in this raw and lovely way.

ippiki_ookami said:
what does that even mean

It means he's threatening to lock the thread (hence the keys) if it continues on its current direction. It's a warning to nudge it back on track.

furrypickle said:
It means he's threatening to lock the thread (hence the keys) if it continues on its current direction. It's a warning to nudge it back on track.

The first time he did it I thought he was imitating a baby playing with toy keys.

TheHuskyK9 said:
Calm yourselves before I use these keys *jingles keys*

post #400215

ippiki_ookami said:
what does that even mean

When little kids (2-3 years old) are fighting, it's proven that jingling keys somehow attracts their attention. Thats why they sell those giant plastic keyring toys

*walks in thread, sees posts* ............... *turns around and walks away*

I love coincidences.

Ugh this thread smells of trolling or someone so blind to anything besides their own vaulted opinion it hurts. Stop feeding a troll guys

CamKitty said:
Ugh this thread smells of trolling or someone so blind to anything besides their own vaulted opinion it hurts. Stop feeding a troll guys

So what's your opinion on this? Let's hear it.

Ozelot said:
So what's your opinion on this? Let's hear it.

Who needs opinions when they can see facts? You are baiting in the most literal sense, and if you really wanted opinions, you would be open to listen to them, which you are stubbornly refusing to do so.

I will longer contribute to this thread, as it has lost all its integrity, and until we see something meaningful come out of this discussion, I suggest everyone do the same.

Moon_Moon said:
Who needs opinions when they can see facts? You are baiting in the most literal sense, and if you really wanted opinions, you would be open to listen to them, which you are stubbornly refusing to do so.

I will longer contribute to this thread, as it has lost all its integrity, and until we see something meaningful come out of this discussion, I suggest everyone do the same.

I just asked to hear the opinion. If you choose not to post it, that is your decision.

Just because you share a point doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you say. Don't a lot of people around here like to complain that "Furaffinity is such a hugbox, at least E621 is different?"

Ozelot said:
I just asked to hear the opinion. If you choose not to post it, that is your decision.

Just because you share a point doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you say. Don't a lot of people around here like to complain that "Furaffinity is such a hugbox, at least E621 is different?"

You are literally telling people that their opinions are worthless, and that for the past 4 pages. What reaction do you expect?

You aren't fostering a discussion with your behavior/attitude, all you do is telling people that only your opinion is correct, nothing else.

You don't even pretend to listen to people, as evidenced here.

At least your lack of discussion skills, basic comprehension, logical fallacies, and self reflection served to entertain me.

Ozelot said:
Don't a lot of people around here like to complain that "Furaffinity is such a hugbox, at least E621 is different?"

You'd be very surprised how many peeps think that FA is all hugs and kisses

NotMeNotYou said:
You are literally telling people that their opinions are worthless, and that for the past 4 pages. What reaction do you expect?

You aren't fostering a discussion with your behavior/attitude, all you do is telling people that only your opinion is correct, nothing else.

You don't even pretend to listen to people, as evidenced here.

At least your lack of discussion skills, basic comprehension, logical fallacies, and self reflection served to entertain me.

I'm only defending my opinion.

I'd like to hear you point out what logical fallacies you're talking about. Because otherwise you're just committing the fallacy fallacy.

I'm quite happy to commit the fallacy fallacy, personally, if it makes unreasonable people go away.

Nobody is going to explain those fallacies, regardless. Because you have shown quite clearly that you just don't care about actually being reasonable (as opposed to giving the appearance of being reasonable)

savageorange said:
I'm quite happy to commit the fallacy fallacy, personally, if it makes unreasonable people go away.

Nobody is going to explain those fallacies, regardless. Because you have shown quite clearly that you just don't care about actually being reasonable (as opposed to giving the appearance of being reasonable)

Sounds more like you're just giving up and admitting you're wrong.

Ozelot said:
I'd like to hear you point out what logical fallacies you're talking about. Because otherwise you're just committing the fallacy fallacy.

NotMeNotYou said:
You don't even pretend to listen to people, as evidenced here.

Link provided, but in the likely case you're going to find a way to miss it anyway:

Ozelot said:

I didn't really bother reading your critique

So, the real objective of this thread has only ever been to call everyone on having any thought of their own. Good show. You look like you're enjoying yourself.

The question that's going to linger in the vulgar thing that is my own mind is this:

If everyone stopped saying anything from now on, would you be satisfied, or would you be driven to mock even that?

Ozelot said:
Sounds more like you're just giving up and admitting you're wrong.

I guess he (and many others) just follow a famous Mark Twain quote

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

D4rk said:
I guess he (and many others) just follow a famous Mark Twain quote

Just because I have a different opinion?

Most threads of this poor a quality usually get two to the back of the head by page 3.

I wonder what life-support needs to be unplugged on this one to put it down?

D4rk said:
I guess he (and many others) just follow a famous Mark Twain quote

This. I've refrained from commenting here (mostly because I don't have anything to say) but so far I've seen that quote followed...

Actini-89 said:
Most threads of this poor a quality usually get two to the back of the head by page 3.

I wonder what life-support needs to be unplugged on this one to put it down?

Commenting. /opinion

Ozelot said:
Just because I have a different opinion?

You have systematically rejected all productive discussions of said opinion. It's quite clear at this point, that you're just cruising for a ban.

Ozelot said:
Just because I have a different opinion?

No, just because it has no use to talk here

Alright, guys. Enough. You've had your fun, now move along.

Ozelot said:
Just because I have a different opinion?

Your art is good and you got positive votes in all your posts. You still have room for improvement, but again, who doesn't?

In all your art, you have just one negative comment about one post, and it wasn't even a harsh one, it was just somebody saying that the butt hole was off in post #523589.

Instead of improving on it, you started a one-person movement against any kind of negative critique. You never lost your temper but you started using dodgy arguments in your discussion:

Ozelot said:
Sure, okay, my art sucks. Though that doesn't make a difference whether I want to ignore their opinions or not.

Ozelot said:
I heard this place doesn't really respect DNPs anyhow.

I'm no artist but all I can do is give my honest opinion about your art. Ignore it if you want to:
You like to draw felines in sexual suggestive positions. Although you can use shadow pretty well to define volume, you always use a flat pattern in your characters. Don't get me wrong, I like paintings with flat patterns, for example Gustav Klimt is one of my favorite artists. The problem with it is that explicit art in this place should (most of the time) make people aroused. While I love a flat pattern painting and I wouldn't mind to buying one (if I lived alone and all my friends and family were into furry porn), it does not arouse me as a person. It will surely arouse somebody else, I'm sure.

A feeling is biological and not an artistic technique, so everybody can feel and everybody has the right to comment it. There are things you can learn in art to change how you feel about it, but the sexual arousal in art is biological. Otherwise all the gay camps in the country will consist of learning how to be aroused by straight art.

You have to go to the right forum to get the right comments. Nevertheless, I know of many posts here that will get a LOT more negative reviews in a more conventional art forum (H R Giger, for example, has a sketch of a human humping a turtle - Can't find it online right now - and he got a lot of negative reviews for that).

Start commenting on other posts with your artistic touch if you feel that is important.

blackest_vulture said:
Your art is good and you got positive votes in all your posts. You still have room for improvement, but again, who doesn't?

In all your art, you have just one negative comment about one post, and it wasn't even a harsh one, it was just somebody saying that the butt hole was off in post #523589.

Instead of improving on it, you started a one-person movement against any kind of negative critique. You never lost your temper but you started using dodgy arguments in your discussion:

I'm no artist but all I can do is give my honest opinion about your art. Ignore it if you want to:
You like to draw felines in sexual suggestive positions. Although you can use shadow pretty well to define volume, you always use a flat pattern in your characters. Don't get me wrong, I like paintings with flat patterns, for example Gustav Klimt is one of my favorite artists. The problem with it is that explicit art in this place should (most of the time) make people aroused. While I love a flat pattern painting and I wouldn't mind to buying one (if I lived alone and all my friends and family were into furry porn), it does not arouse me as a person. It will surely arouse somebody else, I'm sure.

A feeling is biological and not an artistic technique, so everybody can feel and everybody has the right to comment it. There are things you can learn in art to change how you feel about it, but the sexual arousal in art is biological. Otherwise all the gay camps in the country will consist of learning how to be aroused by straight art.

You have to go to the right forum to get the right comments. Nevertheless, I know of many posts here that will get a LOT more negative reviews in a more conventional art forum (H R Giger, for example, has a sketch of a human humping a turtle - Can't find it online right now - and he got a lot of negative reviews for that).

Start commenting on other posts with your artistic touch if you feel that is important.

The reason I avoid shading is because it takes over 9000 hours and doesn't really hardly improve the number of views on a picture at all. All I care about is getting as popular as possible as quickly and as with as little effort as I can.

This really had nothing to do with any negative comments on my art. They don't bother me. In fact, the vast majority of comments (like 99.99999999%) on my work can't even be construed as neutral, let alone negative, they are all almost always positive. But they are rarely thought out or in depth, and that annoys me a lot more than a negative comment ever could. Like I said, I have been in formal critiques and heard all kinds of things.

I made this topic to hear opinions about this general idea. Most of what I heard I expected to hear. But I still say it's definitely true that if you can't draw, your ability to critique is negligible and highly skilled artists can safely discard your opinions.

Please comment on more posts so I and other non-artists can learn how it's done. Just like you think I lack the ability to comment well, I feel you lack the ability of argumentation.

I respect you for keeping your cool in this post, but I cant waste any more time here.You already made up your mind. No hard feelings.

Ozelot said:
[...]it's definitely true that if you can't draw, your ability to critique is negligible and highly skilled artists can safely discard your opinions.

Whoah! Just take it easy, man!

Ok, seriously, that hit home... not all people know how to draw but that donesn't take out that they might have notions (me, for example) or at least, the very least, they can tell if something feels wrong.

Literally, what I understood from that sentence was "LALALA!! I'M BETTER THAN YOU AND I WON'T LISTEN". Really, get off that high horse (lacking a better phrase) and see the picture from different perspectives. Sure, your perspective decides most of the artwork but also look it from the side the viewers have. Take this, just made up, story as an example:

So, unless you stand from the viewer's angle, without pride, you won't see the smudges that compromise your work. Underestimating people never leads to positive results and makes you look like an ass.

Or better: would you like it if someone else, say, a medic said to you that he did the world's best stitches, you say to him that it hurts because [whatever reason] and he replies: "No, no! I did an excellent job and you should feel honored I was your medic", but the stitches still hurt like shit? Well, the doc's an ass because he isn't looking at his work from your point of view (his: pride, yours: pain)

Even better! "tl;dr": Respect and be respected.

*steps down from soapbox*

Xch3l said:

Much as I respect your message, I think that blackest vulture summed it up well. There's no point in hanging around here, just back away slowly. If someone doesn't want to learn, they won't, no matter what brilliant arguments you devise. They have to decide first that they don't already know what's what, before any arguments can change their views.

Ozelot said:
All I care about is getting as popular as possible as quickly and as with as little effort as I can.

Pft. Aren't we all. However, dismissing the critique of anyone who isn't a troll won't get you very popular very fast. If you want to be popular, then you'd better sincerely appreciate other people's opinions (not counting that of trolls, of course), no matter what their artistic skill level. Perhaps they don't know art the way you do, but they do know what they like, and they certainly won't like the attitude that their opinion means less than nothing.

Ozelot said:
The reason I avoid shading is because it takes over 9000 hours and doesn't really hardly improve the number of views on a picture at all. All I care about is getting as popular as possible as quickly and as with as little effort as I can....

...if you can't draw, your ability to critique is negligible and highly skilled artists can safely discard your opinions.

I've been trying not to weigh in on this thread and just let it die, but people keep bumping it anyway and I can't help myself anymore.

That first comment is personally insulting. You know what you're implying with those few sentences? You're saying that you don't care about what people want, you don't care about making good art, you just care about popularity. You're effectively saying that good art is useless, that people are idiots who will gobble up the status quo, and that you simply hope to prey upon that idiocy to drudge up some popularity for yourself. Excuse me for being harsh, but that makes for a bad artist. With an attitude like that, it means that you're never going to try and press yourself to improve, you're never going to try new and creative things, instead why not just continue spitting out the same, old, tired ideas again and again and never have to force yourself to actually try. Furthermore, you know what you're saying to artists? You're saying that all the time, stress, and energy they put into honing their craft is useless, that they should just stick with flat color images because spending more time on lighting, shading, and rendering "hardly improve the number of views." And again, that all blood sweat and tears they've put into trying to continually improve is beneath you. Hopefully I'm just reading the wrong thing from your comments, and you really don't mean that.That last statement is equally insulting, but to the other end of the spectrum. I just want to point out that you're never going to get a lot of popularity online by coming off as that harsh and uncaring about the actual people who give you your views. Unless you want to be popular like Phil Fish, ie infamous for being a raging jerk. While it's true that artists are much better at providing effective criticism, especially ones who have taken classes or done the work on a professional level, that doesn't mean you can count out the opinions of the "common man" so quickly. Just because something is obviously artistically difficult or impressive or whatever, doesn't mean that it's good and that everyone's going to enjoy it. If you want professional critique from an artist, you just have to ask them. Many artists are nice people, who realize that constructive criticism can easily be taken as a personal assault, and therefore don't want to provide it unless specifically asked. Then, they know that you probably won't get upset when they give you a laundry list of things that you should change about your heartfelt artwork. If you'd like com CC, I'm willing to provide it.

Maybe a "misplaced_butthole" tag is in order. :p

https://e621.net/post/show/523589 It took me quite a long time to realize it was a borderline illusion because of it being a perfectly transparent dildo even if it is still off center.

Oh look, praise.

http://prntscr.com/4gld5g
https://e621.net/post/show/525113

This is why I don't give constructive criticism, because people are so up in arms about the concept of improvement that it mitigates my want to help.

For instance, Spazkid doesn't use many easing frames which makes his animations look choppy/disjointed, it could be a design choice or it could be lazyness, who knows? (Flash is a very demanding medium so I'd understand it)

Or Slugbox has (in my opinion) strange/inconsistent proportions/perspective in his MLP art.

Yet they are both on my favorite artists list

Tokaido said:
I've been trying not to weigh in on this thread and just let it die, but people keep bumping it anyway and I can't help myself anymore.

That first comment is personally insulting. You know what you're implying with those few sentences? You're saying that you don't care about what people want, you don't care about making good art, you just care about popularity. You're effectively saying that good art is useless, that people are idiots who will gobble up the status quo, and that you simply hope to prey upon that idiocy to drudge up some popularity for yourself.

Excuse me for being harsh, but that makes for a bad artist. With an attitude like that, it means that you're never going to try and press yourself to improve, you're never going to try new and creative things, instead why not just continue spitting out the same, old, tired ideas again and again and never have to force yourself to actually try. Furthermore, you know what you're saying to artists? You're saying that all the time, stress, and energy they put into honing their craft is useless, that they should just stick with flat color images because spending more time on lighting, shading, and rendering "hardly improve the number of views." And again, that all blood sweat and tears they've put into trying to continually improve is beneath you. Hopefully I'm just reading the wrong thing from your comments, and you really don't mean that.

It also makes him a complete hypocrite for going out of his way whining about people not putting enough thought into their critiques, by which they supposedly show little respect for artists' hard work, including himself.

Who in their right mind would follow that up by blatantly stating they can't be arsed to put any effort into their own art beyond the bare essentials since it won't directly be financially advantageous? Why care about even professional critique if you're not planning on maximizing your abilities in order to make your art better?

What a douche. That, or a rather brilliant troll, at least until now, because it would appear he has just punched a gaping hole in his own logic and given himself away.

@savageorange: I know, but as I said, that last part hit home (I used to read tutorials about drawing but realized that I have no hand for that, my wrists are very stiff, but that doesn't mean that I don't have notions)

Did I overdo it? I wasn't completely aware about what was I doing besides keeping typos out of the way....

Jugofthat, I see you are still slinging personal insults and calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll. I am not a hypocrite at all actually. I still put in far more effort than your average "critiquer" who just writes a few sentences or paragraphs without backing up their claims with supporting evidence.

I also completely disagree with Tokaido saying that popularity makes for a bad artist. Trying to appeal to as many people as possible means your art has to be good for them to look at, or at least good enough. Frankly, I don't see why art always needs to be "for the art" or whatever, making art just because you want to be known and make money off it is completely fine. I don't know where this mentality came from that any artist who is only in it for the money or recognition is bad. We don't say this about many professionals who are only interested in it for the money, lawyers, businessmen, etc. I don't necessarily care about making the art good, only good enough. I'd care more, but what's the point? Most people don't care or notice if you try to make the art "good" and put lots of effort into it, they don't want to help support you in doing this or anything, mostly it just seems like people want free shit to fap to, and don't care how the artist feels or what difficulties they face in making it. They just want what they want, and that's it. Nothing wrong with exploiting a demand for profit and gain.

Ozelot said:
Jugofthat, I see you are still slinging personal insults and calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll.

That seems to become a rather standardized response from you to anything directed your way. That's rather... trollish... in fact. >_>

Still slinging insults? You must mistake me for someone else, because I've been quite polite until that last post. Which also marked the first time I've openly called you a troll (even came to your defense once), and if you'd pay attention you would notice that even now I'm only halfway convinced.

boopboop said:
Or Slugbox has (in my opinion) strange/inconsistent proportions/perspective in his MLP art.

Slugbox is female AFAIK. Apparently the commissions continue to roll in for her, so yeah, she must be doing something people like. Not among my favorite artists, but I admit the colors and style are interesting.

Not gonna lie, pretty baffled people keep responding to this bait thread.

Criticism of any kind is always justified, and "artists" should respect and fear the viewers, not the other way around. That is all I will say.

savageorange said:
Slugbox is female AFAIK. Apparently the commissions continue to roll in for her, so yeah, she must be doing something people like. Not among my favorite artists, but I admit the colors and style are interesting.

"He" or "guys" is just a force of habit, I'm sure there are some people who will get pissy about it but there are social justice warriors who try to be magical pentagenders with special little tags so you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't :p

On an unrelated note: If this is bait thread can't we just banhammer that chromosome hoarder?

I don't think so, because besides acting like a tit he hasn't really done anything wrong. Nothing that's bannable, at most a first neutral mark for stirring up drama.

ole said:
Criticism of any kind is always justified, and "artists" should respect and fear the viewers, not the other way around. That is all I will say.

Not at all, actually. The only "viewers" I truly respect are the ones who sign me paychecks.

What good would fearing my watchers do for me, lol? Not that there's anything they can really do to make that happen.

ole said:
Criticism of any kind is always justified, and "artists" should respect and fear the viewers, not the other way around. That is all I will say.

That's going a bit too far the other way I think.

ole said:
Criticism of any kind is always justified, and "artists" should respect and fear the viewers, not the other way around. That is all I will say.

Now it's you whose statements are coming under Poe's law .
Thoughtless criticism (like most thoughtless acts), and criticism intended primarily to hurt or confuse someone, is almost always unjustifiable. In addition, criticism that is phrased poorly enough is difficult to justify -- the end result is usually just miscommunication and sometimes hurt.

I've got no idea why you want artists to "fear" their viewers. Unless by "artists" you are referring only to pretentious types like Ozelot, for whom there is always the danger of reality intruding on their worldviews via the comments of their viewers.

Something more general: I don't really get why someone would give crits via E621 anyway.. It's a poor format for large amounts of text. Sites like DA,FA,IB are all more natural fits for giving critique.

You need to read this

Ozelot said:
Not at all, actually. The only "viewers" I truly respect are the ones who sign me paychecks.

So you're just in it for the money? That's not a good trait to have, especially if you're trying to get noticed

TheHuskyK9 said:
So you're just in it for the money? That's not a good trait to have, especially if you're trying to get noticed

Why is that?

Ozelot said:
Why is that?

I suppose the assumption is that, in pursuit of the almighty dollar, you'll sacrifice other traits. Granted, if money is all that matters to you, things like artistic integrity, a dedication to quality content, or establishing a rapport with your watchers are all optional.

However, you may very well find that these other traits end up being beneficial for your financial success. Or maybe not! I'm just a tree on the internet.

Edit: Well crap, I'm just keeping the zombie horse limping along. My bad.

Ozelot said:

TheHuskyK9 said:
So you're just in it for the money? That's not a good trait to have, especially if you're trying to get noticed

Why is that?

Doing it for the dollar is like trying to please everybody but managing to please nobody. People are picky. They don't like when something seems fake/bored/apathetic. If they think someone is lazy, they feel like it cheapens something. They like to think that art is special, that there's a meaning behind it (it doesn't matter if there is or not, they still want the impression that there could be). They want something interesting to look at, not only generic (I could get that anywhere, why should I buy it from you?) or technically skilled (work that's technical but nothing else only impresses fellow artists, but that won't pay much) or popular fad (which becomes unpopular as soon as the fad looses steam).

Money is not particular, people will trade money for anything. Con artists have proven that in spades. But they won't come back or make you popular for selling them unremarkable crap. If you want popularity, then you need more than just a popular subject that people tend to like. You need a way to connect with why those people like it; deliver what people are looking for when they buy that. Because most people are buying an outcome, a fantasy, a wish fulfillment...That's what draws people in like moths to a beacon.

People like anthros or sex, but there's tons of artists who deliver that and no one cares. Tapping into that other quality that people are looking for is exactly how some artists can have people who think their art is made of gold (even if technical skill lacks somehow). People are quite willing to overlook subpar skill if it delivers some other quality that they are looking for. Because that other quality is what people actually value and pay for. If you can combine tapping into what they are looking for (but rarely articulate) with technical skill, then your success will be the best of both worlds, letting technical skill be the foundation for the rest. Still, you can cut corners on the technical quality as long as you always deliver whatever that "other quality" is. Basically: 1, Know your userbase, 2, know what they value, 3, deliver it made to the standards which they value for the price they are willing to pay, 4, have good customer support/communications (all sales are built on interactions, so if people don't like dealing with you then they won't pay you again and again no matter how good your product is). It's really simplified, but leave these things out and your chances of making money or popularity are shit.

Also, no one wants to work harder than they have to. But if you only put in the minimum of effort necessary to get someone to pay for it, you will be getting several unintended negative side effects: people will feel gypped (they can tell you could do better but didn't bother. So even if they got a good deal for the price, they'll feel cheated and conclude that they didn't get their money's worth - paying good money for something the artist didn't even value.) Another side effect of only a minimum effort is that people will get the feeling that it is generic, nothing unique or special about it worth paying for (or even worth their attention). They want to feel like what they are buying matters, like it's worth owning, like there's something about it that they like so much that they have to buy it from you in order to share it by owning it. Minimum effort doesn't inspire that, except by sheer accident. Then good luck trying to replicate it.

What exactly this "other quality" is varies from group to group. You have to know who you're selling to, cater to what things they like, figure out what it is that they really respond to and then focus on that. It a bit like playing 'hot and cold' to find the sweet spot. It doesn't matter if their feedback is good for telling where your technical skill is at, because frankly that's irrelevant. You don't use a fork to eat your soup do you? You're currently looking for a specific type of feedback from everyone you meet regardless of their background or interests -- it doesn't work like that. Categorise the type of feedback it is, and then extract the type of value that type of feedback offers. It's not one-size-fits-all, that just leads to frustration. The type of feedback that does nothing to help you improve your artist skill, is probably giving you valid hints on what different customer bases are looking for. Did they like the shading, did they like the colors, the pose, the actions, characters, the species, the distance from viewer to action happening, the style, the type of picture (coy, creepy, kinky, vanilla, orgy or intimate couple, etc etc), bright colors/dark colors, texture or smoothness, flat colors or shading? Do they notice when you leave something out? If yes, then it matters to them. If they don't notice or even prefer it being left out, then that's also something to take note of. And yes, it'll take effort. Every good thing worth having takes effort. But some of that "worthless feedback" is telling you a lot of other things you don't seem to be looking for right now. But these are things that you could be using to get the popularity and people paying you - stuff you've been saying that you want.

Im afraid we're just feeding a troll at this point

I guess my warning fell on deaf ears. Thread locked.