So for complicated personal reasons that I won't get into, traps are famvourite things. Traps being a guy that looks like a girl through figure and clothing. However, I have come to notice that the trap tag no longer works, and images of known trap characters where genitals are not expressly visbile have had "Male, girly" tags removed and replaced with "Female" and having it locked by the same Admin in all of the images I have seen. This is incredibly frustrating because even though I'm gay, to see the content I want to see I have either manually search for a specific character that is a known trap, or to wing and look through the female tag.

Why has the trap tag that accomodated people like me been removed?

trap is ambiguous and thus not used as someone could been say, a booby trap. what you want is the girly tag. In the events of said images being locked as female it's due to the fact that said images don't have anything that indicate the post being male, which goes against standard tagging guide lines.

That being said, the lore tags being implemented will actually cover this issue you're having though you might not of realized it. as in that situation the tags combo you would probably want to search is probably going to be something like.. female male_(lore) provided that's the prefix they decided to go with. That's going to be implemented on the updated site I think, which if I remember correctly is nearing completion.

Versperus said:
trap is ambiguous and thus not used as someone could been say, a booby trap. what you want is the girly tag.

The girly tag doesn't work though when admins just remove it and replace it with female

Viperious said:
The girly tag doesn't work though when admins just remove it and replace it with female

"Trap" has implications, implying they are trying to trick straight men into being gay. It's considered at best an insult, and a justification for hate crime at worst, for this reason. NB people consider the word offensive.

And since the "girly" tag returns over 50,000 results, it seems that the admins don't "just remove it and replace it with female."

The language has changed. Adapt with the times, man.

Girly is functionally equivalent to trap for tag purposes. It's just a rebranding akin to what happened to "dickgirl."
And it is most certainly not a dead tag.

Near as I can tell, girly is replaced with female or gynomorph in the cases where there is insufficient visual evidence that they are just a feminine male.
So if they have e.g. small_breasts they're virtually guaranteed to end up not tagged male, despite how some artists like to draw their girly dudes. That's just the way it be with TWYS sometimes.

LoneWolf343 said:
"Trap" has implications, implying they are trying to trick straight men into being gay. It's considered at best an insult, and a justification for hate crime at worst, for this reason. NB people consider the word offensive.

And since the "girly" tag returns over 50,000 results, it seems that the admins don't "just remove it and replace it with female."

The language has changed. Adapt with the times, man.

Wait, no.

Trap means crossdressing individual, either undeliberately or less commonly deliberately making viewers to think they are of opposite sex, extremely common trope in japanese medium even to this day and only word I have heard being used for this trope is "trap" and as we are disgussing about fictional characters and artwork here I don't see why it wouldn't apply here.

They aren't trying to trick to change peoples sexuality, altough in some plots it is used as method for the character to explore their sexuality.

But at the same time, the question is answered. With trap, you most likely mean ~girly ~crossdressing -female as that's the most objective way of tagging the image in those cases.

Mairo said:
Wait, no.

Trap means crossdressing individual, either undeliberately or less commonly deliberately making viewers to think they are of opposite sex, extremely common trope in japanese medium even to this day and only word I have heard being used for this trope is "trap" and as we are disgussing about fictional characters and artwork here I don't see why it wouldn't apply here.

They aren't trying to trick to change peoples sexuality, altough in some plots it is used as method for the character to explore their sexuality.

But at the same time, the question is answered. With trap, you most likely mean ~girly ~crossdressing -female as that's the most objective way of tagging the image in those cases.

You know, if you're going to straight-splain, you might want to try being in the same neighborhood as right about it.

LoneWolf343 said:
You know, if you're going to straight-splain, you might want to try being in the same neighborhood as right about it.

mairo is straight now? o_o anyway, he is right lol i don't understand what you think is wrong with what he said.

BlackLicorice said:
mairo is straight now? o_o anyway, he is right lol i don't understand what you think is wrong with what he said.

Nothing is wrong with it, but he disagrees with it, therefore Mario must be wrong and not like him.

LoneWolf343 said:
You know, if you're going to straight-splain, you might want to try being in the same neighborhood as right about it.

No, Mairo's pretty much on-point. In Japanese media, the term is Otokonoko (男の娘 meaning "male daughter"; not to be confused with 男の子, which has identical pronounciation and is the more common term but means "male child").

I'll leave it to the alphabet spectrum to decide whether they feel it's a "slur", more than just "slang" resulting from audiences who get confused or mildly disturbed upon suddenly learning a character they had found sexually attractive as one sex was suddenly revealed to be another sex. Maybe it should be added to the lore tags on the new site.

Mairo said:
Wait, no.

Trap means crossdressing individual, either undeliberately or less commonly deliberately making viewers to think they are of opposite sex, extremely common trope in japanese medium even to this day and only word I have heard being used for this trope is "trap" and as we are disgussing about fictional characters and artwork here I don't see why it wouldn't apply here.

They aren't trying to trick to change peoples sexuality, altough in some plots it is used as method for the character to explore their sexuality.

But at the same time, the question is answered. With trap, you most likely mean ~girly ~crossdressing -female as that's the most objective way of tagging the image in those cases.

Trap has been an anti trans slur that has been used against real people for years. It's literally saying their identity only serves the purpose of tricking men (straight men) into sex. At the lowest end, it implies that trans identities exist only to literally predate on people. That stigma socially is part of the reason why people can't use bathrooms that match their gender, that the joke of "all women on the internet are men" and a bunch of other intentionally invalidating bullshit.

Ignoring the implications it carries like some people above are doing, is at the very least disingenuous and at worst dangerous to others. This is literally just outright misinformative.

If the tag is gone, as it should be, its because its patently blatantly offensive. Especially when what youre looking for seems to be under the girly tag for the most part anyway.

Demesejha said:
If the tag is gone, as it should be, its because its patently blatantly offensive. Especially when what youre looking for seems to be under the girly tag for the most part anyway.

That was kinda my point with my comment: considering the medium that this website has, the useage of that tag that OP was looking for is most likely the one from japanese media. We host a lot of characters from manga and anime where it still is to this day, huge trope. So at least my assumption was that they want extrmeley woman looking man, not trans people or gynomorphs or portlayal of characters being acting in demeaning ways towards those groups of people.

And even in that context it's good that the tag is gone as it would rely heavily on lore. You need to know that Felix Argyle is a male, but only way to know they are male is to know the lore where they make the joke of "you know they are dude right?".
On e621, we have many solo images of this character which are tagged as female as they look extremely feminine if not pure female outside their genital area.

Mairo said:
That was kinda my point with my comment: considering the medium that this website has, the useage of that tag that OP was looking for is most likely the one from japanese media. We host a lot of characters from manga and anime where it still is to this day, huge trope. So at least my assumption was that they want extrmeley woman looking man, not trans people or gynomorphs or portlayal of characters being acting in demeaning ways towards those groups of people.

And even in that context it's good that the tag is gone as it would rely heavily on lore. You need to know that Felix Argyle is a male, but only way to know they are male is to know the lore where they make the joke of "you know they are dude right?".
On e621, we have many solo images of this character which are tagged as female as they look extremely feminine if not pure female outside their genital area.

And that's the whole point of this thread. Even though his name is Felix, even though everyone says it's a dude. Even though he rarely has even A-cups. As long as the penis is not visible, it disqualifies art that I want to see from my search history.

Viperious said:
And that's the whole point of this thread. Even though his name is Felix, even though everyone says it's a dude. Even though he rarely has even A-cups. As long as the penis is not visible, it disqualifies art that I want to see from my search history.

As Versperus said above, there's going to be lore tags on the new site, which should help with this.

Viperious said:
And that's the whole point of this thread. Even though his name is Felix, even though everyone says it's a dude. Even though he rarely has even A-cups. As long as the penis is not visible, it disqualifies art that I want to see from my search history.

Because it's an informal fetishist term as well as a slur weaponized against trans people. You can't look up 'fag' as a synonym of 'gay' or 'slut' as a synonym of 'female' even though some creepy people get aroused by the prospect of describing gay people or women like that. Also genitalia doesn't determine whether someone is male or female, there are girls who do not develop mammary glands.

Demesejha said:
Stuff

iceink said:
More stuff

Since I am no longer staff, I can finally say what I LONGED to say:
Not everything is anti-trans. You are just grasping at straws to feel offended so you can pride yourself in censoring others and getting that "I accomplished social justice today".
The whole idea of "fetishising" is completely fabricated. If that was the case, straight men fetishise women, straight women fetishise men, etc. No, herm/cuntboy/dickgirl characters are not trans, they are not fetishising trans people, the world does not revolve around offending specific groups people.
Fetishising would be along the lines of "hot dark chocolate babe gets cream filling" where "dark chocolate" would be to refer to a black person. This isn't the case when people are referring to characters who are born in a specific way, which my character which is a herm, was born as a herm, and I primarily play her because being her makes me feel comfortable.

The word trap was popularized by 4chan and was used to identify twinks and femboys, who, guess what? Look like females but are actually males. It isn't a trans slur, you need to realize that not everything and everyone is against you.

I don't have a problem with you two as people, but instead your behavior. I understand I am a bit aggressive with my statements, I typically am(because bad social skills), but it has to be said and I am not the best with words.

Yes, language does change, but by allowing words to be taken and used in a offensive manor, then censoring it because a small minority use it in a offensive manor, just will result in having no more words to use because they will all be offensive.

Pup said:
As Versperus said above, there's going to be lore tags on the new site, which should help with this.

It's defintely a hope that male_(lore) can be combined with girly or female to reliably find all femboys and similar.
Hell, if Kira can actually get the code running to allow for multi-aliases (where using a search term like "femboy" opens a search for "girly ~male ~male_(lore)") we'd even be able to make searching even more comfortable for users.

But sadly that's currently a big if, and won't be able to happen for a while. Chances are the new site will have other things that are more important to iron out before we can fully get into adding new features.

Viperious said:
So for complicated personal reasons that I won't get into, traps are famvourite things. Traps being a guy that looks like a girl through figure and clothing. However, I have come to notice that the trap tag no longer works, and images of known trap characters where genitals are not expressly visbile have had "Male, girly" tags removed and replaced with "Female" and having it locked by the same Admin in all of the images I have seen. This is incredibly frustrating because even though I'm gay, to see the content I want to see I have either manually search for a specific character that is a known trap, or to wing and look through the female tag.

Why has the trap tag that accomodated people like me been removed?

Everything relating to trans people aside, trap is very ambiguous and whether it's used to mean dickgirl gynomorph, "twink", femboy or anthing else will depend from people to people, and that makes it a bad tag.

This is similar to gay, which could possibly cover what is now tagged as male/male, herm/male, dickgirl/male, stated_homosexuality and even anal_masturbation depending on the tagger, and that's usually a sign that your tag is too ambiguous and either needs to be aliased to something else or invalidated outright.

Chaser said:
Since I am no longer staff, I can finally say what I LONGED to say:
Not everything is anti-trans. You are just grasping at straws to feel offended so you can pride yourself in censoring others and getting that "I accomplished social justice today".
The whole idea of "fetishising" is completely fabricated. If that was the case, straight men fetishise women, straight women fetishise men, etc. No, herm/cuntboy/dickgirl characters are not trans, they are not fetishising trans people, the world does not revolve around offending specific groups people.
Fetishising would be along the lines of "hot dark chocolate babe gets cream filling" where "dark chocolate" would be to refer to a black person. This isn't the case when people are referring to characters who are born in a specific way, which my character which is a herm, was born as a herm, and I primarily play her because being her makes me feel comfortable.

The word trap was popularized by 4chan and was used to identify twinks and femboys, who, guess what? Look like females but are actually males. It isn't a trans slur, you need to realize that not everything and everyone is against you.

I don't have a problem with you two as people, but instead your behavior. I understand I am a bit aggressive with my statements, I typically am(because bad social skills), but it has to be said and I am not the best with words.

Yes, language does change, but by allowing words to be taken and used in a offensive manor, then censoring it because a small minority use it in a offensive manor, just will result in having no more words to use because they will all be offensive.

Some things aren't anti-trans until they are.

Chan culture categorizes trans feminine people as male because they think 'there are no girls on the internet.' Conservative rhetoric categorizes trans feminine people as male with their disingenuous and inadequate 'muh chromosomes' reasoning. So in these contexts we can infer that what you mean when you say 'it's okay to call someone a trap when they're male' is really 'it's okay to call trans women traps because they aren't really female.'

Another issue with what you're saying, even if I were to grant you the benefit of the doubt and allow that you may not be arguing from that connection, is that just because there is a context in which you can somehow use the slur in a way that doesn't refer to a trans person (although I'd also have to point out that objectifying a feminine male is still kinda bad yikes,) doesn't mean there are not contexts in which the term is none-the-less still used against trans people. I can tell you from personal experience I've been called it in many different contexts, both online and off. Just because there is a specific way you can use the word 'fag' in a certain context to refer to something other than a gay person (like when referring to a cigarette) doesn't magically erase the context in which that term is a derogatory slur when it is shouted at a gay man.

As far as people censoring things I don't think that's happening?? There's no word filter on this site that somehow prevents anybody from typing out the word and posting it. This topic is in the context of whether it should be used as a tag, which it shouldn't because it's not useful AND it's a bad word with unfortunate implications, not whether people can say it or not. Criticizing people for using a bad word isn't censorship either, just because you *can* say something does not mean you should, we're all willing to draw some lines when it comes to someone shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater.

NotMeNotYou said:
It's defintely a hope that male_(lore) can be combined with girly or female to reliably find all femboys and similar.
Hell, if Kira can actually get the code running to allow for multi-aliases (where using a search term like "femboy" opens a search for "girly ~male ~male_(lore)") we'd even be able to make searching even more comfortable for users.

I was hoping we'd actually get separate man, male and possibly masculine tags (as well as woman, female and feminine counterparts), and make it so male is turned into a sex tag (like andromorph, gynomorph, herm and maleherm) where it simply can't be tagged on safe images because it requires information that can't be conveyed on strictly SFW images. I feel like it would remove the current dual nature of male and female, at least, and possibly make for simpler tagging policies.

iceink said:
Some things aren't anti-trans until they are.

By that logic, everything can be anti-trans. The only way to stop it is to not allow people to make it anti-trans.

iceink said:
So in these contexts we can infer that what you mean when you say 'it's okay to call someone a trap when they're male' is really 'it's okay to call trans women traps because they aren't really female.'

Don't put words in my mouth.

iceink said:
Another issue with what you're saying, even if I were to grant you the benefit of the doubt and allow that you may not be arguing from that connection, is that just because there is a context in which you can somehow use the slur in a way that doesn't refer to a trans person (although I'd also have to point out that objectifying a feminine male is still kinda bad yikes,) doesn't mean there are not contexts in which the term is none-the-less still used against trans people. I can tell you from personal experience I've been called it in many different contexts, both online and off. Just because there is a specific way you can use the word 'fag' in a certain context to refer to something other than a gay person (like when referring to a cigarette) doesn't magically erase the context in which that term is a derogatory slur when it is shouted at a gay man.

I am called many things, some of which are not derogatory but intentionally used in a derogatory term. Take for example, "cis" is used by people to discredit and often belittle people. Despite the fact it means someone who identifies as their birth sex, because people use it in a context to be derogatory, it should be a slur, yes?

iceink said:
As far as people censoring things I don't think that's happening?? There's no word filter on this site that somehow prevents anybody from typing out the word and posting it. This topic is in the context of whether it should be used as a tag, which it shouldn't because it's not useful AND it's a bad word with unfortunate implications, not whether people can say it or not. Criticizing people for using a bad word isn't censorship either, just because you *can* say something does not mean you should, we're all willing to draw some lines when it comes to someone shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater.

When internet mob mentality attacks people for using words, causing them to lose their jobs and possible future jobs, it is censorship.

Chaser said:
Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not. I'm working from the context of the narrative that you cited. If chan culture says "traps are males who look like females" keep in mind that chan culture also says "trans people don't exist and anyone claiming they're female is really a male."

I am called many things, some of which are not derogatory but intentionally used in a derogatory term. Take for example, "cis" is used by people to discredit and often belittle people. Despite the fact it means someone who identifies as their birth sex, because people use it in a context to be derogatory, it should be a slur, yes?

This is some twisted ass reasoning, it's the same kind a bully would use to make themselves look like a victim. Being cis is the norm in society, you can't be institutionally excluded and socially isolated for being cis. You can't be outed and lose your job, all connections to your friends and families, and possibly killed and have it legally justified for being cis. Acting like you are oppressed for being cis is some top existential insecurity.

When internet mob mentality attacks people for using words, causing them to lose their jobs and possible future jobs, it is censorship.

If you're talking about people losing their jobs for using slurs, I'd say that's justified. Employers have a right to discriminate who they hire on the basis of whether or not their employees lead virtuous enough public lives that it doesn't cause potential backlash against them from the public, and that they aren't potentially in conflict with their fellow workers if one of their fellow workers is part of a minority group that some employee is disparaging with their bigoted comments. I provide value in the company that I work for, and through it I provide value to society. I don't want to work with bigots and if one was fired from my company I'd be glad to hear that.

Fifteen said:
I was hoping we'd actually get separate man, male and possibly masculine tags (as well as woman, female and feminine counterparts), and make it so male is turned into a sex tag (like andromorph, gynomorph, herm and maleherm) where it simply can't be tagged on safe images because it requires information that can't be conveyed on strictly SFW images. I feel like it would remove the current dual nature of male and female, at least, and possibly make for simpler tagging policies.

I would once again bring down the argumentation of language barriers, as "male" is already more scientific term for a sex (or gender, I literally can't keep track as those translate into exact same word and we already use word "sex" for act of intercourse) and "man" is more casual term for male sex person. So having both male and man tags would just be extremely confusing.

Also from technical standpoint, we could get rid of these entirely as we are already tagging genitals and body shape, so only reason why sex/gender tags even exsist is because people use them and there would be outrage if we disallowed those.

iceink said:
Because it's an informal fetishist term as well as a slur weaponized against trans people. You can't look up 'fag' as a synonym of 'gay' or 'slut' as a synonym of 'female' even though some creepy people get aroused by the prospect of describing gay people or women like that. Also genitalia doesn't determine whether someone is male or female, there are girls who do not develop mammary glands.

I actually do know more than several gay people who get really turned on by words like fag. So is this one of those cases that you are only allowed to drop the n-word if you have dark skin? Generally speaking I do personally hate not being able to say words out from my mouth from fear of being labeled as the person to not be accosiated with, especially when there's no clear bad intentions behind saying the words. (but then again I did grow up with sweets which were literally called n-word kisses, so I might have harder time seeing what's the problem with these words)

OP simply used the word in the manner they were defining it and best way to ask for help to seek out content that was falling under that tag is to ask with the word. They simply want extremely feminine and girly femboys regardless if their genitalia is showing, which with current visible tagging system is bit hard. And that's kinda the topic already several messages ago.

And definitely, everyone's individual and gummy bears aren't always shared equal even in the world of biology, but sexual dimorphism and biological sex are definitely still things.

This is a great discussion and I'd love to join in, but this is neither the time nor place for it so I think this time I'm going to do an exception and only say this:
In a couple of years the word 'trans' will start to be considered a slur. Calling it now.

iceink said:
Some things aren't anti-trans until they are.

Chaser said:
By that logic, everything can be anti-trans. The only way to stop it is to not allow people to make it anti-trans.

This, basically, is the problem. And seriously, we're going to let chan culture dictate what becomes a slur?

What a crock. I wouldn't be surprised if someone had already screencapped this conversation and were posting it to either 4chan or 8chan right now, saying "Look guys we're winning! What else can we get banned irl?"

I mean, what do you expect from a bunch of teenagers? Repurposing words into slurs is a professional hobby for that age group, and once they've decided that it's funny to use a word as a slur, nothing shy of corporeal punishment or a literal gun to the face is going to stop most of them. And the rest won't stop either way. It's foolish and self-defeating to hand these children the power to censor adult speech. They can learn to communicate with the rest of us, or suffer the social consequences of refusing to do so.

Mairo said:
I would once again bring down the argumentation of language barriers, as "male" is already more scientific term for a sex (or gender, I literally can't keep track as those translate into exact same word and we already use word "sex" for act of intercourse) and "man" is more casual term for male sex person. So having both male and man tags would just be extremely confusing.

Also from technical standpoint, we could get rid of these entirely as we are already tagging genitals and body shape, so only reason why sex/gender tags even exsist is because people use them and there would be outrage if we disallowed those.

I actually do know more than several gay people who get really turned on by words like fag. So is this one of those cases that you are only allowed to drop the n-word if you have dark skin? Generally speaking I do personally hate not being able to say words out from my mouth from fear of being labeled as the person to not be accosiated with, especially when there's no clear bad intentions behind saying the words. (but then again I did grow up with sweets which were literally called n-word kisses, so I might have harder time seeing what's the problem with these words)

OP simply used the word in the manner they were defining it and best way to ask for help to seek out content that was falling under that tag is to ask with the word. They simply want extremely feminine and girly femboys regardless if their genitalia is showing, which with current visible tagging system is bit hard. And that's kinda the topic already several messages ago.

And definitely, everyone's individual and gummy bears aren't always shared equal even in the world of biology, but sexual dimorphism and biological sex are definitely still things.

I'm glad you were able to return to the route of my thread and address my concerns. Which are that the current tagging structure and rules limit my ability to search for certain content because as far as e621 is concerned, "Anime traps" don't exist, and unless a penis is visible, a girly male character will be hard tagged as Female, with the present example being Felix/Felis Argyle from Re:Zero who has many of his images being hard tagged as Female and anyone who calls it out gets noted.

ikdind said:
corporeal punishment

Just a friendly heads-up, but: *corporal

Corporeal means something COMPLETELY different.

Jacob said:
Just a friendly heads-up, but: *corporal

Corporeal means something COMPLETELY different.

Huh. I'd always thought it was the other way around, but it does seem "corporal" is the correct phrase.

Though the confusion doesn't seem that odd, as the difference between the two are "relating to a person's body, especially as opposed to their spirit" vs. "relating to the human body".

Viperious said:
images of known trap characters where genitals are not expressly visbile have had "Male, girly" tags removed and replaced with "Female" and having it locked by the same Admin in all of the images I have seen.

Link?

Viperious said:
and unless a penis is visible, a girly male character will be hard tagged as Female

Friendly reminder this is effectively a tug-of-war against separate arguments that masculine female characters shouldn't be tagged male or andromorph.

Cat1778 said:
Link?

https://e621.net/post/show/943442 No penis visible, hard tagged Female, Flat_Chested. Anyone that tried to correct it was threatened with bans by Ratte and I also recieved a Neutral note as a warning. Also tagged as Femboy by the original artist.

https://e621.net/post/show/1999192/1-1-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-anime-blush-bow_tie Literally tagged as Female, Crossgender, MtF.

https://e621.net/post/show/1714629/2016-accessory-aged_down-ambiguous_gender-anal-ana Tagged as Ambiguous gender because you can only see his back.

https://e621.net/post/show/1604091/accessory-animal_humanoid-anime-cat_humanoid-cloth Literally tagged as a female even though the followup NSFW version of the same image has a penis.

https://e621.net/post/show/1436241/abstract_background-absurd_res-amber_eyes-animal_h Hard tagged as Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1436104/abdominal_bulge-absurd_res-ambiguous_gender-animal Tagged as both Ambiguous gender and Flat chested, Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1347923/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_hair-cat_ Tagged as female. You were called a transphobe in this one.

https://e621.net/post/show/1412825/4-3-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedding-bed Tagged female even though the artist that made the image tagged him as a Femboy

https://e621.net/post/show/1347919/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_eyes-brown_h Tagged as flat_Chested female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1347916/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-bow-brown_eyes-bro Tagged as Flat Chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1334042/animal_humanoid-arm_warmers-armwear-blush-bow-brow Tagged as flat chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1331280/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedroom_eyes- Tagged as flat chested Female.

And that's just for Felix Argyle.

Viperious said:
https://e621.net/post/show/943442 No penis visible, hard tagged Female, Flat_Chested. Anyone that tried to correct it was threatened with bans by Ratte and I also recieved a Neutral note as a warning. Also tagged as Femboy by the original artist.

https://e621.net/post/show/1999192/1-1-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-anime-blush-bow_tie Literally tagged as Female, Crossgender, MtF.

https://e621.net/post/show/1714629/2016-accessory-aged_down-ambiguous_gender-anal-ana Tagged as Ambiguous gender because you can only see his back.

https://e621.net/post/show/1604091/accessory-animal_humanoid-anime-cat_humanoid-cloth Literally tagged as a female even though the followup NSFW version of the same image has a penis.

https://e621.net/post/show/1436241/abstract_background-absurd_res-amber_eyes-animal_h Hard tagged as Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1436104/abdominal_bulge-absurd_res-ambiguous_gender-animal Tagged as both Ambiguous gender and Flat chested, Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1347923/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_hair-cat_ Tagged as female. You were called a transphobe in this one.

https://e621.net/post/show/1412825/4-3-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedding-bed Tagged female even though the artist that made the image tagged him as a Femboy

https://e621.net/post/show/1347919/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_eyes-brown_h Tagged as flat_Chested female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1347916/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-bow-brown_eyes-bro Tagged as Flat Chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1334042/animal_humanoid-arm_warmers-armwear-blush-bow-brow Tagged as flat chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1331280/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedroom_eyes- Tagged as flat chested Female.

And that's just for Felix Argyle.

Felix is canonically trans anyways: https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/7r7pxt/felix_effectively_confirmed_genuinely_trans/

The tags are accurate, it's a female character.

iceink said:
Felix is canonically trans anyways: https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/7r7pxt/felix_effectively_confirmed_genuinely_trans/

The tags are accurate, it's a female character.

And yet people still refer to her as a "trap", which should put to bed the argument that "trap" is never used for trans characters.

Really what this argument boils down to is the majority of trans people saying "yeah the word is applied to trans people as a slur", and people who mostly aren't trans saying "well I'VE never seen that so it can't be true".

This entire argument reeks of the time one of my southern friends tried to convince me that the n-word wasn't a slur against black people. The core of many of the arguments used here to defend the word "trap" are the same.

iceink said:
Felix is canonically trans anyways: https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/7r7pxt/felix_effectively_confirmed_genuinely_trans/

The tags are accurate, it's a female character.

Felix. Is. Not. Trans.

In Arc 4 he specifically states that he is male in both body and mind, and the only reason he wears female clothing is because it's the preference of the person he loves, who had to get rid of her feminimity to become the head of family. Felix then takes it as his duty to be the feminimity that she had to discard.

The only source indicating he is trans is a quote from a non canon side story, while the numerous sources indicating he is a man despite appearances are all in the canon main story.

Clawdragons said:
And yet people still refer to her as a "trap", which should put to bed the argument that "trap" is never used for trans characters.

Really what this argument boils down to is the majority of trans people saying "yeah the word is applied to trans people as a slur", and people who mostly aren't trans saying "well I'VE never seen that so it can't be true".

This entire argument reeks of the time one of my southern friends tried to convince me that the n-word wasn't a slur against black people. The core of many of the arguments used here to defend the word "trap" are the same.

Felix is a trap and is not Trans.

iceink said:
Felix is canonically trans anyways: https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/7r7pxt/felix_effectively_confirmed_genuinely_trans/

The tags are accurate, it's a female character.

https://twitter.com/_psyduck_lover/status/1165124052115177472

Viperious said:
Felix. Is. Not. Trans.

In Arc 4 he specifically states that he is male in both body and mind, and the only reason he wears female clothing is because it's the preference of the person he loves, who had to get rid of her feminimity to become the head of family. Felix then takes it as his duty to be the feminimity that she had to discard.

The only source indicating he is trans is a quote from a non canon side story, while the numerous sources indicating he is a man despite appearances are all in the canon main story.

Nah, check the source, you're just taking things out of context to justify using a gross slur to erase someone's identity and fixate on your kink. You've said a bunch of times you're obsessed with it, just stop invalidating transfem folks to perpetuate this.

Clawdragons said:
And yet people still refer to her as a "trap", which should put to bed the argument that "trap" is never used for trans characters.

Really what this argument boils down to is the majority of trans people saying "yeah the word is applied to trans people as a slur", and people who mostly aren't trans saying "well I'VE never seen that so it can't be true".

This entire argument reeks of the time one of my southern friends tried to convince me that the n-word wasn't a slur against black people. The core of many of the arguments used here to defend the word "trap" are the same.

Seen this countless times

them: "oh this word is okay if you use it on a MALE"

transfem person: "I'm not actually male so don't call me it then"

them: "but actually you *are* so it's okay to call you it now"

shit I've actually had this argument used against ME

iceink said:
Felix is canonically trans anyways

Which has no bearing on TWYS, barring visibly_trans.

donteven said:
Which has no bearing on TWYS, barring visibly_trans.

why would that even be a tag, I thought the admins kept insistin you can't tag trans characters because 'you can't see trans' or some bs

Clawdragons said:
Really what this argument boils down to is the majority of trans people saying "yeah the word is applied to trans people as a slur", and people who mostly aren't trans saying "well I'VE never seen that so it can't be true".

Has anyone here said "trap is never used to negatively refer to a trans person"? I don't see anyone saying that. What they're saying is that just because the word is sometimes used by some people to refer to trans people negatively, does that make it a slur, particularly when there's other still valid contexts in which it's neither negative nor a reference to a trans person?

iceink said:
Nah, check the source, you're just taking things out of context to justify using a gross slur to erase someone's identity and fixate on your kink. You've said a bunch of times you're obsessed with it, just stop invalidating transfem folks to perpetuate this.

Nah, the only thing I got wrong was thinking the story wasn't canon because the author has released multiple side stories of what if scenarios. The side story that this quote is taken from is infact canon and is about the life of Felix up until where the main story kicks off. The first time he is dressed up as a girl and looks at himself in the mirror, he says he's a girl, but that's it. It does not all of a sudden mean that he is now a pre-op trans girl, it just means in his eyes, at this time, he sees a girl in his own reflection. Literally everything else in the main story and even that novel confirm that Felix is actually a guy. Anyone who has read the book confirms that Felix is infact a guy and that quote you use is out of context. Even trans people confirm that Felix is a guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNrJY4ZLXjs.

My fetish is not for tricking men or for being tricked. My fetish is purely that I like men who look feminine as I despise masculinity and muscles. Trap is a character archtype in Japanese stories that refer to people like this who are mistaken for women more often then not, but they do not hide that they are men and will almost always immediately correct the proposition that they are infact women.

I would really appreciate it if you would stop taking this character, ignore all of his backstory and thoughts, and then just slap a label on him that fits your interests.

Viperious said:
https://twitter.com/_psyduck_lover/status/1165124052115177472

Who is this person and why should anyone care about her opinion compared to the actual presented text? You can't just link to some random person saying "I disagree!" as if that means anything at all.

iceink said:
why would that even be a tag

Because it relies on clear visual evidence and not external information.

Clawdragons said:
Who is this person and why should anyone care about her opinion compared to the actual presented text? You can't just link to some random person saying "I disagree!" as if that means anything at all.

You can't just link to a single paragraph from a story you haven't read and claim that you all of a sudden know everything about a character even if what you say you know conflicts with everything that character has said and done in the past and future. That random person is someone who has actually read the book and owns it's physical copy, so she's alot more qualified to talk about the meaning of that paragraph than either of you.

Watsit said:
Has anyone here said "trap is never used to negatively refer to a trans person"? I don't see anyone saying that. What they're saying is that just because the word is sometimes used by some people to refer to trans people negatively, does that make it a slur, particularly when there's other still valid contexts in which it's neither negative nor a reference to a trans person?

Nah, what they're trying to do is normalize the word in one context so that it seems okay to use in others.

Viperious said:
You can't just link to a single paragraph from a story you haven't read and claim that you all of a sudden know everything about a character even if what you say you know conflicts with everything that character has said and done in the past and future. That random person is someone who has actually read the book and owns it's physical copy, so she's alot more qualified to talk about the meaning of that paragraph than either of you.

I've read the book and I can assure you that Felix is trans.

I'm lying, but I could have easily not included this paragraph and that would put my opinion as exactly as evidenced as theirs. Your source is literally just someone saying their opinion with no evidence, and is entirely meaningless. "Some random person agrees with me" is literally not evidence in the slightest. It's fully possible that we're wrong about the character, but what you've presented doesn't even begin to demonstrate that.

Clawdragons said:
I've read the book and I can assure you that Felix is trans.

I'm lying, but I could have easily not included this paragraph and that would put my opinion as exactly as evidenced as theirs. Your source is literally just someone saying their opinion with no evidence, and is entirely meaningless. "Some random person agrees with me" is literally not evidence in the slightest. It's fully possible that we're wrong about the character, but what you've presented doesn't even begin to demonstrate that.

I can give you a 40 minute character analysis of the character made by someone who I assume is trans who uses constant examples in the side story about Felix and Crusch, that results in them saying Felix is not Trans. Would that suffice or are you and Iceink going to use the out of context paragraph to label Felix is 100% trans and anyone who disagrees is transphobic?

Clawdragons said:
I've read the book and I can assure you that Felix is trans.

I'm lying, but I could have easily not included this paragraph and that would put my opinion as exactly as evidenced as theirs. Your source is literally just someone saying their opinion with no evidence, and is entirely meaningless. "Some random person agrees with me" is literally not evidence in the slightest. It's fully possible that we're wrong about the character, but what you've presented doesn't even begin to demonstrate that.

Also in the main story, when asked about it he literally says "I am a man in both body and soul" Which is another reason why I find it ridiculous that people that want him to be trans have completely latched onto something he said while looking at himself after being dressed up by the person who saved him from 10 years of being neglected and malnourished in a basement by his parents.

iceink said:
Nah, what they're trying to do is normalize the word in one context so that it seems okay to use in others.

If "trap" is "normalized" as a term to refer to a man mistaken as a woman (or vice-versa), how does that make it seem okay to use as a pejorative against trans people? Talking badly about trans people for being trans is wrong no matter what words are used. I mean, if you had the power to erase "trap" from the history of language, and all bigots were made to use the word "trans" instead of "trap", would that make what they say less reprehensible? No, they're still spreading the same vile nonsense, just with different words.

Like people who are against bisexuals, making them say "bisexual" instead of "pretender" or "faker" doesn't erase the idea they're trying to spread that we're only pretending to be interested in the opposite sex, or we're faking/feigning interest in the same sex. Would I be upset with someone who calls me a pretender or faker because I'm bisexual? Absolutely, just as a trans person should be if someone uses the word "trap" against them for being trans. But that doesn't negate the fact that there's other contexts in which a person can legitimately be called a pretender or faker that has nothing to do with bisexuality, and there's no reason to get upset at people who use it in those contexts. Same for trap.

Viperious said:
I can give you a 40 minute character analysis of the character made by someone who I assume is trans who uses constant examples in the side story about Felix and Crusch, that results in them saying Felix is not Trans. Would that suffice or are you and Iceink going to use the out of context paragraph to label Felix is 100% trans and anyone who disagrees is transphobic?

The paltry details of a fictional character don't matter nearly as much as the issue that the character is a bunch of cis people's shitty stereotyped idea of what a trans person is. Felis is an example of a cis author just doing a crappy job of writing what they think a trans person would be like, which is latched onto people with a regressive attachment to something that reinforces their obsession with a specific paraphilia. This is why they get so defensive about any indication that Felis might be even *a little bit* trans.

iceink said:
The paltry details of a fictional character don't matter nearly as much as the issue that the character is a bunch of cis people's shitty stereotyped idea of what a trans person is. Felis is an example of a cis author just doing a crappy job of writing what they think a trans person would be like, which is latched onto people with a regressive attachment to something that reinforces their obsession with a specific paraphilia. This is why they get so defensive about any indication that Felis might be even *a little bit* trans.

CIS author writes non-trans character
Random person labels character as trans for stupid reasons and then critisicizes the authour for poorly writing a trans character.

It's almost like the character isn't trans and that's why you're finding so many things that go against that plotpoint other than a single out of context paragraph from a Chapter called "Felix is a pretty boy" which is just the translation, if you took the original Japanese literally it would be "Felix is a trap" which in Japanese writing refers to a man who is often mistaken for a girl, which the main character Subaru even does when he first meets Felix and isn't corrected until he meets the Imperial knights during a ceremony where one of his friends explains that despite his appearance, Felix is both a man and one of the Imperial knights.

Watsit said:
If "trap" is "normalized" as a term to refer to a man mistaken as a woman (or vice-versa), how does that make it seem okay to use as a pejorative against trans people?

Because the cultural norm in society is transfem people are still categorized as male.

Viperious said:
I can give you a 40 minute character analysis of the character made by someone who I assume is trans who uses constant examples in the side story about Felix and Crusch, that results in them saying Felix is not Trans. Would that suffice or are you and Iceink going to use the out of context paragraph to label Felix is 100% trans and anyone who disagrees is transphobic?

What would suffice is if you admitted that you were wrong to quote some random person expressing their opinion with no evidence to back it up as evidence of your point.

If you're willing to do that, then sure, once you have, afterwards feel free to post a link to a character breakdown video. I generally enjoy that sort of thing.

As I said, very clearly, that you even literally quoted in your reply despite ignoring it, "It's fully possible that we're wrong about the character". This particular character really isn't very substantial to the argument overall, but it's still nice when someone provides evidence for what they're saying rather than just putting words in my mouth, which you've absolutely done.

Oh I will happily admit that linking to a random on Twitter saying that they've read the story and that the paragraph was out of context and using that alone to decide that Felix Argyle is trans was pointless and lacked any factual backing or reasoning that the person wasn't simple lying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNrJY4ZLXjs Here's the character analysis

Clawdragons said:
What would suffice is if you admitted that you were wrong to quote some random person expressing their opinion with no evidence to back it up as evidence of your point.

If you're willing to do that, then sure, once you have, afterwards feel free to post a link to a character breakdown video. I generally enjoy that sort of thing.

As I said, very clearly, that you even literally quoted in your reply despite ignoring it, "It's fully possible that we're wrong about the character". This particular character really isn't very substantial to the argument overall, but it's still nice when someone provides evidence for what they're saying rather than just putting words in my mouth, which you've absolutely done.

If you want to cut past the first half, the start of the second video basically covers everything important to the conversation at hand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Oq0cOaTFU

Wow this degraded into a unrelated argument on the second page.

And it was actually going somewhere and was largely respectful before this. Shame

iceink said:
Because the cultural norm in society is transfem people are still categorized as male.

That doesn't answer the question. Using any word as a pejorative against trans people is bad, we can agree there, right? So the question is, how does using a word in a different context where it is neither a pejorative nor about a trans person, affect that?

Watsit said:
That doesn't answer the question. Using any word as a pejorative against trans people is bad, we can agree there, right? So the question is, how does using a word in a different context where it is neither a pejorative nor about a trans person, affect that?

It does answer the question tho. And it means the word is used more against trans people because it's now just seen as a normal term.

It also doesn't just have to be used to describe them directly to be harmful to them.

CamKitty said:
Wow this degraded into a unrelated argument on the second page.

And it was actually going somewhere and was largely respectful before this. Shame

While I regret that my thread got derailed by the will of a single person who thinks they are right about everything, I don't think the main topic was going anywhere beyond the end of the first page.

What exactly is a gender?

iceink said:
It does answer the question tho. And it means the word is used more against trans people because it's now just seen as a normal term.

A term not directly related to trans people. Words don't exist in a vacuum, they're given meaning by the people that use them. For instance, despite how various places in the UK/GB still use "fag" to refer to a cigarette, it's no more acceptable to use it as a term against gay people there than it is here. Similarly, "homo" is still a regular normal term in certain contexts, but is not socially acceptable to use in the context of a pejorative against gay people, like it once was.

Watsit said:
A term not directly related to trans people. Words don't exist in a vacuum, they're given meaning by the people that use them. For instance, despite how various places in the UK/GB still use "fag" to refer to a cigarette, it's no more acceptable to use it as a term against gay people there than it is here. Similarly, "homo" is still a regular normal term in certain contexts, but is not socially acceptable to use in the context of a pejorative against gay people, like it once was.

It's related to trans people because it's used to describe them and it fits the definition of how transfem people are stereotyped. It's also amazing to me how much you're willing to talk down to me about it when I've been called it rather than the sort of person who'd use it against me. You don't get to decide what kinds of words are related to describing me in a negative way, I do.

iceink said:
It's related to trans people because it's used to describe them and it fits the definition of how transfem people are stereotyped. It's also amazing to me how much you're willing to talk down to me about it when I've been called it rather than the sort of person who'd use it against me. You don't get to decide what kinds of words are related to describing me in a negative way, I do.

And you don't get to decide what a word with multiple meanings mean when someone else uses it. We are using trap to refer to something that isn't trans and is a common character archtype used in Japanese storytelling. Now please, would you grow up and stop derailing the point of this thread.

I made this thread to address the problem that male trap characters are being labelled as female when their penis is not visible and it makes it difficult for me to find the content I want to see because I have things like female blacklisted.

Viperious said:
And you don't get to decide what a word with multiple meanings mean when someone else uses it. We are using trap to refer to something that isn't trans and is a common character archtype used in Japanese storytelling. Now please, would you grow up and stop derailing the point of this thread.

I made this thread to address the problem that male trap characters are being labelled as female when their penis is not visible and it makes it difficult for me to find the content I want to see because I have things like female blacklisted.

I didn't derail anything, I explained why no one will use this tag in literally my first post. You don't even have the maturity to not have a tantrum to get your way when you can't realize that it's just some vague fetish term that you're fixated with and won't be consistently used and might be applied as a slur against some characters here, so idk why you'd tell me to grow up when this was pointed out ages ago and the thread might as well be closed, lmao.

post #669637

Viperious said:
I made this thread to address the problem that male trap characters are being labelled as female when their penis is not visible and it makes it difficult for me to find the content I want to see because I have things like female blacklisted.

I haven't seen any feedback to my post yet, have you read this thing and if so could you give your opinion on it?

Viperious said:

https://e621.net/post/show/943442 No penis visible, hard tagged Female, Flat_Chested. Anyone that tried to correct it was threatened with bans by Ratte and I also recieved a Neutral note as a warning. Also tagged as Femboy by the original artist.

https://e621.net/post/show/1999192/1-1-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-anime-blush-bow_tie Literally tagged as Female, Crossgender, MtF.

https://e621.net/post/show/1714629/2016-accessory-aged_down-ambiguous_gender-anal-ana Tagged as Ambiguous gender because you can only see his back.

https://e621.net/post/show/1604091/accessory-animal_humanoid-anime-cat_humanoid-cloth Literally tagged as a female even though the followup NSFW version of the same image has a penis.

https://e621.net/post/show/1436241/abstract_background-absurd_res-amber_eyes-animal_h Hard tagged as Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1436104/abdominal_bulge-absurd_res-ambiguous_gender-animal Tagged as both Ambiguous gender and Flat chested, Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1347923/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_hair-cat_ Tagged as female. You were called a transphobe in this one.

https://e621.net/post/show/1412825/4-3-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedding-bed Tagged female even though the artist that made the image tagged him as a Femboy

https://e621.net/post/show/1347919/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_eyes-brown_h Tagged as flat_Chested female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1347916/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-bow-brown_eyes-bro Tagged as Flat Chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1334042/animal_humanoid-arm_warmers-armwear-blush-bow-brow Tagged as flat chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1331280/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedroom_eyes- Tagged as flat chested Female.

And that's just for Felix Argyle.

Those are tagged in accordance to TWYS, there are a lot more examples of the same type that have been locked by myself or other admins. Ratte just shows up more often as they deal with the tickets more often than not, especially back then.
Again, lore tags should help that, because all of those characters would then qualify for the lore_(male) tag, and a search as outlined in the post above would reliably find them. Once we add the lore tags to them, which might require some help, but should be doable easily enough to set up over the next week(s).

iceink said:
why would that even be a tag, I thought the admins kept insistin you can't tag trans characters because 'you can't see trans' or some bs

You should have been aware of the existence of that tag, I'm very confident it has been brought up more than once in threads you perused and replied to. It exists because post-op trans people can be drawn with scars, and that tag is for those cases as it presents visual evidence.

iceink said:
[...] just some vague fetish term that you're fixated with and won't be consistently used and might be applied as a slur against some characters here[...]

Using tags incorrectly is a punishable offense, and we have had tag locking feature for quite some time now. If something like this were to happen, a simple report of the post and we can quite literally fix and punish misuse like that in minutes, and prevent it from happening again on the affected posts.
This is, at best, a non-argument and no different from any other tag that needs some additional curation every now and then.

On the other hand, I believe femboy might be the better term all around, because then the chances are lower for people to try and tag things like bear traps as "traps" and people suddenly get gore in their search results.

NotMeNotYou said:
I haven't seen any feedback to my post yet, have you read this thing and if so could you give your opinion on it?

In regards to adding a Male_Lore tag to distinguish between female characters and male characters that may either be feminine or drawn specifically as a female, I see no problems with it as long as it's upheld, since it really doesn't mean much if people forget to tag it as we return to the original problem of people looking for specific types of art unable to find it, because TWYS is flawed for external information, like the artist themself tagging Femboys/Traps as male and having it be forcefully overruled by the admin team, or even having art in a series where one of the images is SFW and does not show genitalia and therefore gets tagged as female, even though the following image clearly shows them with male genitals.

Those are tagged in accordance to TWYS, there are a lot more examples of the same type that have been locked by myself or other admins. Ratte just shows up more often as they deal with the tickets more often than not, especially back then.

You should have been aware of the existence of that tag, I'm very confident it has been brought up more than once in threads you perused and replied to. It exists because post-op trans people can be drawn with scars, and that tag is for those cases as it presents visual evidence.[/quote]

NotMeNotYou said:On the other hand, I believe femboy might be the better term all around, because then the chances are lower for people to try and tag things like bear traps as "traps" and people suddenly get gore in their search results.

While I definetely agree that Femboy is better suited for western creations like furry characters (Mine included who is a Femboy incubus) and things like that, when it comes to content that originates in Japanese Anime, it can be difficult because there is a slight nuance that differenciates Japanese Traps and Western Femboys. For example, my character who is a Femboy is clearly male and his feminimity comes out from the way he acts and communicates, while a Trap is someone who is almost entirely indestinguishable from a female without something that's a dead givaway or without them saying it themself. For instance, if you took a picture of a trap blushing in women's clothing and posted it here, it would likely get tagged as Female regardless of the tags provided by the creator of the art and the backstory of said character, however what if you were to add a speech bubble with them saying or thinking "I'm a guy you know?", the image itself hasn't changed and the physical attributes are the same, but there is clear information on image stating their Sex, would it still be tagged female in this case? Or would it be tagged as Male?

On that note, I have decided to report one of the tag locked images for being misstagged as Trans. I don't know why ImpidiDinkaDoo decided to hardlock "MtF" and "Crossgender" onto a random image when there was not information in the image or outside of it that would back that claim.

In the end, hard locking tags really comes down to an admins personal preference as determining Felix Argyle as being a Male Trap/Femboy, or being MtF is down to the individuals thoughts on the matter, and even though Felix Argyle is factually Male and not trans, some people, like iceink refuse to accept that fact because it does not fit with their interests.

Viperious said:
For instance, if you took a picture of a trap blushing in women's clothing and posted it here, it would likely get tagged as Female regardless of the tags provided by the creator of the art and the backstory of said character, however what if you were to add a speech bubble with them saying or thinking "I'm a guy you know?", the image itself hasn't changed and the physical attributes are the same, but there is clear information on image stating their Sex, would it still be tagged female in this case? Or would it be tagged as Male?

Would be tagged as female, because dialog is not reliably truthful, and is generally not used for evidence. IIRC we could stand to be more consistent with that though (for example, I think it is used as supporting information for applying incest tags)

As for the distinction you are drawing between trap and femboy, while I see what you mean, the distinction doesn't seem strong enough that it can be reliably applied on e621 as a whole, so you are back to needing lore tags IMO.

Viperious said:
In regards to adding a Male_Lore tag to distinguish between female characters and male characters that may either be feminine or drawn specifically as a female, I see no problems with it as long as it's upheld, since it really doesn't mean much if people forget to tag it as we return to the original problem of people looking for specific types of art unable to find it, because TWYS is flawed for external information, like the artist themself tagging Femboys/Traps as male and having it be forcefully overruled by the admin team, or even having art in a series where one of the images is SFW and does not show genitalia and therefore gets tagged as female, even though the following image clearly shows them with male genitals.

Lore tags will be entirely exempt from TWYS, and focus purely on things that can't be seen, or are regularly tagged "wrong" when going by purely visual cues. As such, it might take a bit until the tags catch on, but enough people have shown interest in being able to tag things that can't be seen that we have high hopes it won't take long until people use them properly and regularly.

Viperious said:
While I definetely agree that Femboy is better suited for western creations like furry characters (Mine included who is a Femboy incubus) and things like that, when it comes to content that originates in Japanese Anime, it can be difficult because there is a slight nuance that differenciates Japanese Traps and Western Femboys. For example, my character who is a Femboy is clearly male and his feminimity comes out from the way he acts and communicates, while a Trap is someone who is almost entirely indestinguishable from a female without something that's a dead givaway or without them saying it themself. For instance, if you took a picture of a trap blushing in women's clothing and posted it here, it would likely get tagged as Female regardless of the tags provided by the creator of the art and the backstory of said character, however what if you were to add a speech bubble with them saying or thinking "I'm a guy you know?", the image itself hasn't changed and the physical attributes are the same, but there is clear information on image stating their Sex, would it still be tagged female in this case? Or would it be tagged as Male?

Currently text has no bearing on TWYS tags, this is also where Lore tags would come in, they'd be one possible indicator that male_(lore) would be applicable.

Is the distinction between the japanese use of traps and western femboy actually big enough to warrant splitting it up for the sake of searching? To me the difference appears so minute it would make little sense to have that distinction from the view of and end user that just wants to find fitting images.
Or I guess a better way to word it, would you be annoyed by searching for femboy and getting both western femboys and eastern traps in your results?

NotMeNotYou said:

Currently text has no bearing on TWYS tags, this is also where Lore tags would come in, they'd be one possible indicator that male_(lore) would be applicable.

Is the distinction between the japanese use of traps and western femboy actually big enough to warrant splitting it up for the sake of searching? To me the difference appears so minute it would make little sense to have that distinction from the view of and end user that just wants to find fitting images.
Or I guess a better way to word it, would you be annoyed by searching for femboy and getting both western femboys and eastern traps in your results?

To answer your question. Yes and No. While I personally like both, there is already a way to search for Femboys as Furry Femboys are often blatantly male. However this is not the case with Japanese traps as you can see by the links are posted on the first page, I would not be able to find those images under normal circumstances because I tend to have things like "Vaginal" and "Female" blacklisted, yet even though those images I linked are precisely what I'm looking for, because they are being tagged from a subjective western mindset, I am unable to directly search for those images. I guess what I'm trying to say is that those specific images have a certain appeal that is being ignored and so they are not being tagged in a way that makes them findable. The only reason I was able to find those images was being I was able to look at all images relating directly to that character. Aside from a few examples out of the total 80 images that belong to that character, where either vagina or breasts were visible, the rest of those images were depicting a man, yet because half of them were either not showing a position where the crotch region was visible, they were tagged as female and in 1 case tagged as transgender for some unknown reason.

While adding in Lore_Tags would clear stuff up, it would still be far complex than simply adding in a Trap tag that was meant specifically for known Japanese trap characters for fill that role.

To provide an example of this in use, if I go on Sankakucomplex right now and search "Trap" then I will be lambasted with pictures of Alstolfo and Felix Argyle, but if I search Trap on e621 I get no search results. Simply put, there isn't a way to search specifically for those types of images because people have deemed them transphobic and forced arbritrary tags on them to make them better fit a percieved notion that if you look female and your dick is not visble, you are female, regardless of what the artist or external information says.

I have been fighting this fight for 4 years now and I will continue to fight until I can just go on e621 and find the content I am looking for without having to dodge controversy for using specific terms that people have to decided is purely meant to attack them.

Traps = anime
Femboy = furry

thank you for coming to my ted talk

Viperious said:
To provide an example of this in use, if I go on Sankakucomplex right now and search "Trap" then I will be lambasted with pictures of Alstolfo and Felix Argyle, but if I search Trap on e621 I get no search results.

I mean yeah but if you use girly you get over fifty thousand results.
Throw crossdressing in there if you want.

donteven said:
I mean yeah but if you use girly you get over fifty thousand results.
Throw crossdressing in there if you want.

And then an admin comes in, removes the tags, adds on Female and Flat chested, locks the tags and gives notes to anyone who complains.