0p3nV01D5 said:
Traps = anime
Femboy = furry

thank you for coming to my ted talk

While you probably meant this as a joke, that's pretty much how I see it xD The intentions behind characters that fall under these descriptions are different.

i feel this has just become another "i don't like TWYS, get rid of it" thread

darryus said:
i feel this has just become another "i don't like TWYS, get rid of it" thread

Most problems with tagging is usually down to the simplicity of TWYS. While it works in concept, it leaves little room important things like a character's true gender, rather than their apparent gender.

Viperious said:
Most problems with tagging is usually down to the simplicity of TWYS. While it works in concept, it leaves little room important things like a character's true gender, rather than their apparent gender.

well, that's what the point of lore tags is going to be when they come out along side the release of the e621 overhaul update that's being worked on.

except then i guess we'll still have arguments of whether a character is actually canonically trans or male who crossdresses or whatever, and the tag wars will just shift to another set of tags... nothing will change and everyone will still hate eachother

darryus said:
well, that's what the point of lore tags is going to be when they come out along side the release of the e621 overhaul update that's being worked on.

except then i guess we'll still have arguments of whether a character is actually canonically trans or male who crossdresses or whatever, and the tag wars will just shift to another set of tags... nothing will change and everyone will still hate eachother

I just wish we could tag what we know. It feels kinda wrong knowing that there are people out their fapping to traps because they don't know the character and admins refuse to tag it as it is. You can usually tell when this has happened because an image will be tagged female, and then someone in the comments will say "She's hot" and will have -17 from that comment alone.

Viperious said:
I just wish we could tag what we know. It feels kinda wrong knowing that there are people out their fapping to traps because they don't know the character and admins refuse to tag it as it is.

The whole point of TWYS is that it exists for searchability. If someone finds an image that they like (considering it in itself, without added context), it doesn't seem correct to say that their lack of knowledge of lore is a problem. TWYS is "tagging it as it is" from the point of the random person -- who doesn't know, on average, know the lore of any given character. It's trying to communicate clearly to the maximum number of people.

The introduction of lore tags aka limited TWYK won't change this, IMO. People will still find images mainly via TWYS tag searches, because that's the only kind that is able to reliably identify particular aesthetic elements.

And by maximising it's searchability for people who don't know what is in the image, it is limiting the searchability for people who do know what in the image but can't find the image because by current tagging standards, the only way to find the image is look through all images relating to that character, or by looking for something else and finding it by chance.

savageorange said:
The whole point of TWYS is that it exists for searchability. If someone finds an image that they like (considering it in itself, without added context), it doesn't seem correct to say that their lack of knowledge of lore is a problem. TWYS is "tagging it as it is" from the point of the random person -- who doesn't know, on average, know the lore of any given character. It's trying to communicate clearly to the maximum number of people.

The introduction of lore tags aka limited TWYK won't change this, IMO. People will still find images mainly via TWYS tag searches, because that's the only kind that is able to reliably identify particular aesthetic elements.

There's also how tagging "true gender" regardless of what cen be determined by visual examination would open up a bunch of additionnal issues like "What of crossgender portrayals of existing characters?" or "What about tagging gynomorphic characters on safe images even though no dick can be seen?".

Mairo said:
I would once again bring down the argumentation of language barriers, as "male" is already more scientific term for a sex (or gender, I literally can't keep track as those translate into exact same word and we already use word "sex" for act of intercourse) and "man" is more casual term for male sex person. So having both male and man tags would just be extremely confusing.

Fair, though that problem arguably covers the whole gender issue in your case. I wouldn't mind the names for the tags being different, I'd just like to draw a line between "Guessing if that person is a dude or a lady based on body shape" (gender tagging) and "Telling that this individual is male/female/herm/etc. based on the bits I can see" (sex tagging, which is easy to remember because you gauge that one by looking at the sex parts).

Most importantly, it would mean herm and gynomorphs would be considered ladies and maleherms and andromorphs considered dudes until the pants come off (or anything close enough, like proeminent bulges and such), at which point you can tell their actual sex.

Mairo said:
Also from technical standpoint, we could get rid of these entirely as we are already tagging genitals and body shape, so only reason why sex/gender tags even exsist is because people use them and there would be outrage if we disallowed those.

I don't think we "technically could" get rid of those, since sex tags all represent different combinations of sexual attributes on individual characters. Try seraching for images with two herm characters without resorting to herm, herm/herm, -male, -female or any other such tag we currently use to represent specific applications of penis and vagina. The tagging system we have currently only works at the scope of individual images, so it wouldn't be possible to precise "penis + vagina on the same character". We really do need tags like those.

Viperious said:
And by maximising it's searchability for people who don't know what is in the image, it is limiting the searchability for people who do know what in the image but can't find the image because by current tagging standards, the only way to find the image is look through all images relating to that character, or by looking for something else and finding it by chance.

Smarter people than you and I have tried to create the perfect classification systems for various things and literally not a single one doesn't have advantages and disadvantages over another system for the same thing. The best you can do is find a system that suits your needs as well as possible, and hope to alleviate the bad stuff so it doesn't annoy too much. Our site and tagging system has been explicitly created as an opposed system to FA's system of "tag what you know" (or more cynically "tag nothing, add useless jokes"). We will not be fundamentally changing our site away from a core principle. The inclusion of lore tags is already a huge concession from us to users who seemingly either can't or don't want to understand TWYS and learn how to utilize effectively.

Always remember that many people come here because we do things in purely objective ways, just because it doesn't fit your preferred usage scenario doesn't mean it's "broken" for everyone else as well. Your proposed fix would break things for many other people.

NotMeNotYou said:
[...]Our site and tagging system has been explicitly created as an opposed system to FA's system of "tag what you know" (or more cynically "tag nothing, add useless jokes").

My problem with FA isn't the tagging system, it's that nobody enforces it.

NotMeNotYou said:
Smarter people than you and I have tried to create the perfect classification systems for various things and literally not a single one doesn't have advantages and disadvantages over another system for the same thing. The best you can do is find a system that suits your needs as well as possible, and hope to alleviate the bad stuff so it doesn't annoy too much. Our site and tagging system has been explicitly created as an opposed system to FA's system of "tag what you know" (or more cynically "tag nothing, add useless jokes"). We will not be fundamentally changing our site away from a core principle. The inclusion of lore tags is already a huge concession from us to users who seemingly either can't or don't want to understand TWYS and learn how to utilize effectively.

Always remember that many people come here because we do things in purely objective ways, just because it doesn't fit your preferred usage scenario doesn't mean it's "broken" for everyone else as well. Your proposed fix would break things for many other people.

Probably because the people who care the most usually end up getting permanently banned for bullshit reasons. For instance this user https://e621.net/user/show/233401 was permanently banned by Ratte for apparently uploading images of a male character and having the audacity to upload it tagged as male. The user didn't try and revert the tags back to male once the character was incorrectly tagged as female, yet was told to "Never come back" for trying to stay true to the intent of the artist and the owner of said content. How do you justify this sort of thing?

Viperious said:
Probably because the people who care the most usually end up getting permanently banned for bullshit reasons. For instance this user https://e621.net/user/show/233401 was permanently banned by Ratte for apparently uploading images of a male character and having the audacity to upload it tagged as male. The user didn't try and revert the tags back to male once the character was incorrectly tagged as female, yet was told to "Never come back" for trying to stay true to the intent of the artist and the owner of said content. How do you justify this sort of thing?

Very likely they were warned on multiple occasions to don't tag male if the character doesn't appear male, but kept doing it anyway. This includes new posts, not just changing back tags on existing ones; willfully mis-tagging new posts is still bad. Continually disregarding staff's warnings and doing what you want anyway, no matter how justified you may feel in doing it, is grounds for being banned just about anywhere. If you don't like the rules as they are, you can make reasoned arguments for why it should be changed and try to get those in charge to see your point of view. Fighting the admins isn't likely to endear them to your way of thinking. You don't just ignore the rules you don't like and expect them to change.

Watsit said:
Very likely they were warned on multiple occasions to don't tag male if the character doesn't appear male, but kept doing it anyway. Continually disregarding staff's warnings and doing what you want anyway, no matter how justified you may feel in doing it, is grounds for being banned just about anywhere. If you don't like the rules as they are, you can make reasoned arguments for why it should be changed and try to get those in charge to see your point of view. Fighting the admins isn't likely to endear them to your way of thinking. You don't just ignore the rules you don't like and expect them to change.

Doesn't change the fact that he went through the process of uploading all 51 images of a particular character, all of which were tagged as male and all of that which had visible genitals had a penis, yet when carrying them over from FA and giving them the same tags, any that didn't have a visible dick were tag swapped with female. Even images in a series of images, where the starting images cleared displayed male genitals, were tagged female the moment their bulge was no longer visible. This kind of narrow sighted blind use of a flawed system is the problem I really want to address, and that perma banning a user for simply uploading images with the original tags is downright abusive of the userbase.

The example I was referring to was this.

https://e621.net/post/show/1541071 Tagged Girly male, can only just about see the bottom of the underwear due to the belly inflation.

Then the next image in the pool

https://e621.net/post/show/1541303 Slightly bigger belly due to inflation, underwear is no longer visible, tagged as female.

Imagine if someone was into inflation but had female blacklisted. They would literally be unable to see the rest of animation pool.

NotMeNotYou said:
Smarter people than you and I have tried to create the perfect classification systems for various things and literally not a single one doesn't have advantages and disadvantages over another system for the same thing. The best you can do is find a system that suits your needs as well as possible, and hope to alleviate the bad stuff so it doesn't annoy too much. Our site and tagging system has been explicitly created as an opposed system to FA's system of "tag what you know" (or more cynically "tag nothing, add useless jokes"). We will not be fundamentally changing our site away from a core principle. The inclusion of lore tags is already a huge concession from us to users who seemingly either can't or don't want to understand TWYS and learn how to utilize effectively.

Always remember that many people come here because we do things in purely objective ways, just because it doesn't fit your preferred usage scenario doesn't mean it's "broken" for everyone else as well. Your proposed fix would break things for many other people.

My solution would be to have a new tagging category for character type. Character types are simple character descriptors that provide external information on the character. For instance Bear/Cub/Femboy/Trap/Otter/MILF/DILF/etc... I know that most of these are already used in standard tagging, however they aren't always present where applicable, so if the category was added to distinguish itself like Artist/Species/CopyRight/General, then it would be much easier for people uploading content to give users the immediate ability to find a specific type of character in an artpiece, rather than having to combine 5 different tags that are commonly found in said character type, and often limits your ability to find that content because those images are either missing 1 of the required tags, or have been tagged as something else.

Viperious said:
yet when carrying them over from FA and giving them the same tags, any that didn't have a visible dick were tag swapped with female.

Different sites have different rules and standards. Or in the case of tags, e6 actually has rules for them whereas FA doesn't, which anyone who's familiar with the two sites will know. Using FA's tags directly without curating them for e6's standards is just begging for problems, just like if you uploaded an artist's entire gallery here without curating what the images are of, any non-furry or real-life stuff will be subject to deletion and warnings. I doubt anyone would be happy if posts' tags here started having the quality of FA tags, which is what you get when you blindly copy them over.

Viperious said:
This kind of narrow sighted blind use of a flawed system is the problem I really want to address, and that perma banning a user for simply uploading images with the original tags is downright abusive of the userbase.

It's such a flawed system, yet one of the biggest praises e6 gets is with its tagging system. Is it perfect? Certainly not. Some things are difficult to impossible to search for, it can be a bit of a headache when dealing with comics and image series (a character "changing" between ambiguous, male, female, and intersex based on what is visible on a given page, for example), etc, but compared to many other art sites, it's definitely a big step up. And they are looking for ways to improve it, for instance by adding lore tags. But again, this kind of thing comes about with well-made reasoned arguments for why it's better to have rather than not have, instead of simply ignoring TWYS until lore tags magically appear. Consistently ignoring the rules is what got that person banned, it's that simple.

Viperious said:
My solution would be to have a new tagging category for character type. Character types are simple character descriptors that provide external information on the character. For instance Bear/Cub/Femboy/Trap/Otter/MILF/DILF/etc... I know that most of these are already used in standard tagging, however they aren't always present where applicable[..]

Most of those are already tags, as you said, but adding an extra tag such as cub_(type) would just add more work to tagging images when most are under-tagged as it is.

The femboy tag would be fixed with the lore tags as would the others. There could also be a young_(lore) for when characters are meant to be younger but look older.

NotMeNotYou said:
[..]The inclusion of lore tags is already a huge concession from us to users who seemingly either can't or don't want to understand TWYS and learn how to utilize effectively.

Not sure if you meant it like that, but that sounds like it was purely for people who don't like TWYS, rather than because it's useful.

Admittedly there's not tons of cases where it's more useful than TWYS, but for situations like this, where femboys are being tagged as female, it works pretty well.

Watsit said:
Different sites have different rules and standards. Or in the case of tags, e6 actually has rules for them whereas FA doesn't, which anyone who's familiar with the two sites will know. Using FA's tags directly without curating them for e6's standards is just begging for problems, just like if you uploaded an artist's entire gallery here without curating what the images are of, any non-furry or real-life stuff will be subject to deletion and warnings. I doubt anyone would be happy if posts' tags here started having the quality of FA tags, which is what you get when you blindly copy them over.

e621's tagging system relies on individual users to tag what they see and has an extensive range. While this is great as it allows for the average user to very precise with what they search for, it also means broader and vaguer tags get replaced or outright removed makes things more complex when they don't have to be. In regards to other sites like FA and IB, they are tagged by the individual uploading the image, who is either the artist or the commissioner of said art, meaning they have a better grasp over what the overall image is trying to convey and add nuance through tags that isn't visible in the image. So I believe tags carrying over from the artist or art owner's original intent should override the basic premise of "Tag only what you see"

Watsit said:It's such a flawed system, yet one of the biggest praises e6 gets is with its tagging system. Is it perfect? Certainly not. Some things are difficult to impossible to search for, it can be a bit of a headache when dealing with comics and image series (a character "changing" between ambiguous, male, female, and intersex based on what is visible on a given page, for example), etc, but compared to many other art sites, it's definitely a big step up. And they are looking for ways to improve it, for instance by adding lore tags. But again, this kind of thing comes about with well-made reasoned arguments for why it's better to have rather than not have, instead of simply ignoring TWYS until lore tags magically appear. Consistently ignoring the rules is what got that person banned, it's that simple.

The praise is for how extensive and detailed the tags are on images, but just because it's great at one thing doesn't means it's great all around, and you can't use it's partial greatness to overrule the downsides. I'm glad to see that serious steps are being taken to counteract these problems, yet I feel like it will still be flawed even though simpler solutions exist.

Pup said:

Admittedly there's not tons of cases where it's more useful than TWYS, but for situations like this, where femboys are being tagged as female, it works pretty well.

Yeah, and for people like me who are only really interested in that content most of the time, it's incredibly dissapointing. Who knows how many bomb ass trap/femboy animations there are that I've never seen because someone like Ratte banned the user who uploaded it for giving it the tags that the original creator gave it.

Viperious said:
Who knows how many bomb ass trap/femboy animations there are that I've never seen because someone like Ratte banned the user who uploaded it for giving it the tags that the original creator gave it.

I presume they had several warnings to not just copy and paste the tags, users normally get at least 3 warnings first. A neutral record, a negative, a block for 3-7 days, then ban.

You also get a dmail when you get a warning, which puts a bright green banner at the top of every page till you read it, so it's not like they could have missed getting a record either.

Even if the uploader presumed they could tag what they want on images, after the first warning they should have realised rather than keep doing the thing that got them the warning.

Pup said:
I presume they had several warnings to not just copy and paste the tags, users normally get at least 3 warnings first. A neutral record, a negative, a block for 3-7 days, then ban.

You also get a dmail when you get a warning, which puts a bright green banner at the top of every page till you read it, so it's not like they could have missed getting a record either.

Even if the uploader presumed they could tag what they want on images, after the first warning they should have realised rather than keep doing the thing that got them the warning.

Judging by his Note history, he recieved his first block by NotMeNotYou for uploading 65 images of this male character and tagging them all as male https://e621.net/post/index/1/percey Now this just brings up the fact that sissy characters can't even be appropriately tagged when their genitals aren't visible. And then he proceeded to upload all 51 images of this Male character https://e621.net/post/index/1/catsikune and tagged them all as male, including the ones where his penis wasn't visible.

Which just brings us back to the original point. TWYS completely ignores nuance on what kind of character a character is. If I uploaded a picture of my character in completely women's clothing and no visible genitals, I would tag it as male, and the moment someone tries to tag it as otherwise, I would absolutely flip my shit.

Viperious said:
In regards to other sites like FA and IB, they are tagged by the individual uploading the image, who is either the artist or the commissioner of said art, meaning they have a better grasp over what the overall image is trying to convey and add nuance through tags that isn't visible in the image. So I believe tags carrying over from the artist or art owner's original intent should override the basic premise of "Tag only what you see"

If TWYS can be so easily overridden, it would bring down the overall quality of tagging and resulting searchability of images for their content. Being a site focused exclusively on visual art, it makes sense to tag and search things by what you can visually see rather than creator intent. I mean, it wouldn't be very helpful if you wanted to look at male-figured characters, but when searching male you get a random selection of male, female, and ambiguous/mixed-looking characters because each artist said these are male despite how they look. Or something like bestiality, where some artists will say anything human-on-non-human (including human-on-anthro) is bestiality, some artists say human-on-feral is not bestiality as long as the feral has sentience/sapience, and the rest will fall somewhere in-between. As it is, this site defines bestiality as feral-on-non-feral, which applies consistently to all pictures based on what you can see, so you know what it's going to apply to when searching or blacklisting. It won't skip over some pictures because the artist intends that feral to have sapience regardless of it looking like a normal dog, and it won't apply to that human-on-anthro picture but does to another one because the artists think differently on that point.

The reason TWYS is able to work is because there's a consistent definition for when a tag is applicable, instead of different posts using a tag differently because each artist has a different standard for applying that tag.

However, that's why the lore tags have been designed the way they are. They don't override the TWYS tags, but they do still allow an artist's or character creator's intent to be expressed in the tags. I don't know all the details with how lore tags will work (a number of my questions on them have unfortunately gone unanswered), but it is trying to help improve the tagging system without messing up what's already working.

Viperious said:
Judging by his Note history, he recieved his first block by NotMeNotYou for uploading 65 images of this male character and tagging them all as male https://e621.net/post/index/1/percey Now this just brings up the fact that sissy characters can't even be appropriately tagged when their genitals aren't visible. And then he proceeded to upload all 51 images of this Male character https://e621.net/post/index/1/catsikune and tagged them all as male, including the ones where his penis wasn't visible.

Just so others don't need to go searching:
https://e621.net/user/show/233401

But yeah, they had 3 warnings before being blocked, in the first neutral they were linked the "how to tag genders" post, which it looks like they didn't read as they later kept doing it.

Viperious said:
Which just brings us back to the original point. TWYS completely ignores nuance on what kind of character a character is.

It does, but thankfully there's going to be lore tags soon, which will let people search for and see what a character actually is rather than what they appear to be.

Viperious said:
If I uploaded a picture of my character in completely women's clothing and no visible genitals, I would tag it as male, and the moment someone tries to tag it as otherwise, I would absolutely flip my shit.

I can definitely sympathise with that, it'd be annoying to have your male character tagged as female, despite knowing they're male.

At the same time, E6 isn't meant as a personal gallery like FA or other sites, it's more meant as an archive of furry art, for if other sites go down.

It's also presumed that you read through the links at the top of the upload page, which gives advice on how and what to tag. To upload without reading the tagging guidelines just seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

After the beta swaps to being the main site, with a situation like that, male would be swapped to female and male_(lore) also added, to still retain that the character's actually male.

Watsit said:
If TWYS can be so easily overridden, it would bring down the overall quality of tagging and resulting searchability of images for their content. Being a site focused exclusively on visual art, it makes sense to tag and search things by what you can visually see rather than creator intent. I mean, it wouldn't be very helpful if you wanted to look at male-figured characters, but when searching male you get a random selection of male, female, and ambiguous/mixed-looking characters because each artist said these are male despite how they look. Or something like bestiality, where some artists will say anything human-on-non-human (including human-on-anthro) is bestiality, some artists say human-on-feral is not bestiality as long as the feral has sentience/sapience, and the rest will fall somewhere in-between. As it is, this site defines bestiality as feral-on-non-feral, which applies consistently to all pictures based on what you can see, so you know what it's going to apply to when searching or blacklisting. It won't skip over some pictures because the artist intends that feral to have sapience regardless of it looking like a normal dog, and it won't apply to that human-on-anthro picture but does to another one because the artists think differently on that point.

The reason TWYS is able to work is because there's a consistent definition for when a tag is applicable, instead of different posts using a tag differently because each artist has a different standard for applying that tag.

However, that's why the lore tags have been designed the way they are. They don't override the TWYS tags, but they do still allow an artist's or character creator's intent to be expressed in the tags. I don't know all the details with how lore tags will work (a number of my questions on them have unfortunately gone unanswered), but it is trying to help improve the tagging system without messing up what's already working.

Tagging a feminine male character as Male because the artist/character Owner says they are male is different to tagging beastiality as not beastiality because the artist interprits beastiality differently. One is about perception, the other is about reality, that being how the artist percieves the subject of their art, and the reality of the character being drawn in their art.

While Male_Lore narrows down the problem, there is still the blaring issue that I can't ignore. And that is that it will essentially mix Genderbend and Femboy/Traps/Sissies. Additionally, it would still mean that to find the content I am looking for, I would have to unblacklist the Female tag and search through genuinley female versions of male characters, rather than feminine male character who dress like females.

A big problem with TWYS is that there no wiggle room. Everything is either/or with nothing inbetween and it's a goddamn shame.

Additionally: It appears Sonan got his first negative note from Ratte for tagging images with both "Overweight" and "Slightly Chubby" because according to Ratte, you can't be both.

Honestly, my opinion of Ratte just degrades as I look at them actively preventing me from seeing content I want to see.

Viperious said:
[..]
Additionally: It appears Sonan got his first negative note from Ratte for tagging images with both "Overweight" and "Slightly Chubby" because according to Ratte, you can't be both.

Honestly, my opinion of Ratte just degrades as I look at them actively preventing me from seeing content I want to see.

It's nothing to do with "according to Ratte". Any admin would have added the record, it just happened to be them who took the ticket to handle that particular report.

slightly_chubby
overweight

Admins don't just make up rules as they go along, it's there on the wiki to not have both for the same character, last edited in 2017. The whole point of the wiki is to say "what posts should this tag apply to".

It's also worth mentioning that wiki entries can be edited by anyone, however people usually make a forum thread to discuss changes before actually making them, and if you alter them to just be how you think they should be without a discussion, you'll probably get a record.

I'm sorry my job is so offensive to you.

No, weight categories do not overlap. If you are obese, you are not slightly chubby. The misuse of the original chubby tag led to the alias to slightly_chubby in a vain hope that people would start using it as intended. Big surprise, it wasn't.

Our tagging system does not care about intent, it cares about how something looks. If it looks like a girl it's going to be tagged as one. If people grossly disregard the rules they agree to upon account creation you bet they'll get a record for it. Records don't just magically happen, nor are they just given out of boredom. Even I have better things to do than that. Get over yourself and search by character name if you're that mad you can't find guy-in-canon-only-generic-anime-character. That is absolutely an option you have until lore tags are implemented.

I love e621's TWYS policy for one simple reason. I love butts but I dont like gynomorphs. If there is an amazing picture that happens to conceal the fact that the character is a gm, but its tagged as gm, then I wont see it due to my blacklist. Because we go off what we see and not what we know, we can find the content that most appeals to us.

The reason crossdressing girly males is tagged as female is not to spite the artist, its because people looking for males aren't going to want to see what for all intents and purposes is a female character. The fact that they have a penis is irrelevant if you have no way of knowing going off the picture itself.

Thirtyeight said:
I love e621's TWYS policy for one simple reason. I love butts but I dont like gynomorphs. If there is an amazing picture that happens to conceal the fact that the character is a gm, but its tagged as gm, then I wont see it due to my blacklist. Because we go off what we see and not what we know, we can find the content that most appeals to us.

The reason crossdressing girly males is tagged as female is not to spite the artist, its because people looking for males aren't going to want to see what for all intents and purposes is a female character. The fact that they have a penis is irrelevant if you have no way of knowing going off the picture itself.

I like how you ignore the fact that people like me exist. People who have absolutely no attraction to female characters, but absolutely love femboys and traps. Male characters that have the appearance of Females are simply my fetish, and the TWYS policy makes it nigh impossible for me to search specifically for that content, even though it would be incredibly easy to work into the current tagging system without changing TWYS.

And in regards to what people usually say when someone criticizes TWYS. "It just works" doesn't make the problems go away, I thought we all learned this from Bethesda.

Viperious said:
e621's tagging system relies on individual users to tag what they see and has an extensive range. While this is great as it allows for the average user to very precise with what they search for, it also means broader and vaguer tags get replaced or outright removed makes things more complex when they don't have to be. In regards to other sites like FA and IB, they are tagged by the individual uploading the image, who is either the artist or the commissioner of said art, meaning they have a better grasp over what the overall image is trying to convey and add nuance through tags that isn't visible in the image. So I believe tags carrying over from the artist or art owner's original intent should override the basic premise of "Tag only what you see"

The praise is for how extensive and detailed the tags are on images, but just because it's great at one thing doesn't means it's great all around, and you can't use it's partial greatness to overrule the downsides. I'm glad to see that serious steps are being taken to counteract these problems, yet I feel like it will still be flawed even though simpler solutions exist.

Inkbunny's tagging system also uses community tags, the uploader gets to decide to either approve of the suggested tags, or deny them. If the artists you follow on FA actually add useful tags than that's great, but they're unicorns in a pile of badly tagged trash.
In fact, a good deal of artists started using our tags on FA, because they're useful, but they're still the exception and seldom go beyond the most obvious things.

As a randomly picked example from the most popular submissions on e6: https://www.furaffinity.net/view/25767451/
Look at those amazing tags.

Viperious said:
While Male_Lore narrows down the problem, there is still the blaring issue that I can't ignore. And that is that it will essentially mix Genderbend and Femboy/Traps/Sissies. Additionally, it would still mean that to find the content I am looking for, I would have to unblacklist the Female tag and search through genuinley female versions of male characters, rather than feminine male character who dress like females.

A big problem with TWYS is that there no wiggle room. Everything is either/or with nothing inbetween and it's a goddamn shame.

A genderbent character will not get the male_(lore) tag, as the "lore" is they're currently actually the gender they're bent into.
You can also blacklist things like female pussy or mtf_crossgender and get your desired results without having to see actual female bits.
Our search is quite powerful, if you sit down and actually get familiar with the intricacies.

Viperious said:
Additionally: It appears Sonan got his first negative note from Ratte for tagging images with both "Overweight" and "Slightly Chubby" because according to Ratte, you can't be both.

Honestly, my opinion of Ratte just degrades as I look at them actively preventing me from seeing content I want to see.

Hi, I'm the Lead Administrator since 2015 and I make the rules. Ratte, and all other staff, enforce my rules. If you want to hate someone with how the rules are don't hate the muscle, hate the dude at the top that actually tells the others how to enforce them. And in this case, the enforcement of the split of chubby and overweight is indeed done to give users like you the nuance you so lament is missing from our tagging system.
This is the same split as we do with things like mega evolutions of pokemon, so that people can actually search and find either/or, and not just both at the same time when using a base tag. This is so that charizard is not tagged on either mega_charizard_x, mega_charizard_y, or gigantamax_charizard. Because otherwise trying to find only the original charizard would return results of all the other versions that are quite distinct.

If you want to find both of those steps in our scale fatness use something like ~overweight ~chubby in your searches and you will get all results that contain at least one of those two tags.

Again, you might benefit from actually sitting down and getting familiar with what our page can actually do, and with how tags are used and classified to offer nuance.

NotMeNotYou said:
Hi, I'm the Lead Administrator since 2015 and I make the rules. Ratte, and all other staff, enforce my rules. If you want to hate someone with how the rules are don't hate the muscle, hate the dude at the top that actually tells the others how to enforce them. And in this case, the enforcement of the split of chubby and overweight is indeed done to give users like you the nuance you so lament is missing from our tagging system.
This is the same split as we do with things like mega evolutions of pokemon, so that people can actually search and find either/or, and not just both at the same time when using a base tag. This is so that charizard is not tagged on either mega_charizard_x, mega_charizard_y, or gigantamax_charizard. Because otherwise trying to find only the original charizard would return results of all the other versions that are quite distinct.

If you want to find both of those steps in our scale fatness use something like ~overweight ~chubby in your searches and you will get all results that contain at least one of those two tags.

Again, you might benefit from actually sitting down and getting familiar with what our page can actually do, and with how tags are used and classified to offer nuance.

I will apologise for directing my frustration to Ratte who is simply enforcing the rules. It was not nice of me to do.

And to be clear, I do respect the benefits of the tagging system, but I still feel there are concerns or solutions that get overlooked because everything just works and is the pride of the furry community.

I appreciate that you are taking steps to correct it with Male_Lore and while I don't know how effective it will be in practice, I do expect there to be some critical flaws that do not address some of the concerns raised in this thread.

Viperious said:
I like how you ignore the fact that people like me exist. People who have absolutely no attraction to female characters, but absolutely love femboys and traps. Male characters that have the appearance of Females are simply my fetish, and the TWYS policy makes it nigh impossible for me to search specifically for that content, even though it would be incredibly easy to work into the current tagging system without changing TWYS.

I didn't ignore it at all. I personally love femboys, to me effeminate men have a special kind of beauty. But the fact is, if the character is indistinguishable from female, they need to be tagged female because people who look for females will enjoy it, while people looking for men will not enjoy it. You can't have a system that pleases everyone, so compromises must be made. TWYS does the most good for the most people, and so it is superior to TWYK. Yes, that means that some images will not be tagged in accordance to the artist's wishes, but that's just how it goes.

Thirtyeight said:
I didn't ignore it at all. I personally love femboys, to me effeminate men have a special kind of beauty. But the fact is, if the character is indistinguishable from female, they need to be tagged female because people who look for females will enjoy it, while people looking for men will not enjoy it. You can't have a system that pleases everyone, so compromises must be made. TWYS does the most good for the most people, and so it is superior to TWYK. Yes, that means that some images will not be tagged in accordance to the artist's wishes, but that's just how it goes.

Which is why I suggested another category so that all parties can be satisfied. Straight people don't want to see it because it's actually a dude and they'll feel like they've been tricked when they find out, and the only gay people who don't want to see it won't be looking for Femboys to begin with. The people that art is catered too are simply be told to give up on the fact that while the art they want to see exists on e621, it has been categorised with something that is completely opposed to their sexual attraction, meaning that art that is meant for people like me can't be find by people like me unless a penis is evident.

NotMeNotYou said:
Smarter people than you and I have tried to create the perfect classification systems for various things and literally not a single one doesn't have advantages and disadvantages over another system for the same thing. The best you can do is find a system that suits your needs as well as possible, and hope to alleviate the bad stuff so it doesn't annoy too much. Our site and tagging system has been explicitly created as an opposed system to FA's system of "tag what you know" (or more cynically "tag nothing, add useless jokes"). We will not be fundamentally changing our site away from a core principle. The inclusion of lore tags is already a huge concession from us to users who seemingly either can't or don't want to understand TWYS and learn how to utilize effectively.

And let me just say that e621 is the absolute best because of the tagging system and how well it's maintained and enforced. Yes it's imperfect and sometimes there are some problems like the one in this thread, but if you're familiar enough with the system and are resourceful, you can find nearly anything you want.

IMO the inclusion of the lore tags while still maintaining strict TWYS is pretty much the best of both worlds.
Honestly the biggest gripe with the tagging system or rather the search function that I have right now is the 6 tag search limit - for me it requires a lot of juggling most of the time. Contrast that with Furaffinity where if there is a tag limit - I haven't been able to hit it yet.
But the tags over there are so poorly maintained that without including every possible synonym of a tag as part of an "or" function you can't find anything.

AngryDraconequus said:
And let me just say that e621 is the absolute best because of the tagging system and how well it's maintained and enforced. Yes it's imperfect and sometimes there are some problems like the one in this thread, but if you're familiar enough with the system and are resourceful, you can find nearly anything you want.

It's definitely one of the things that makes the site great.

AngryDraconequus said:
[..] Honestly the biggest gripe with the tagging system or rather the search function that I have right now is the 6 tag search limit - for me it requires a lot of juggling most of the time. [..]

Good news! The beta/new site has a search limit of 40 tags :)

Pup said:
It's definitely one of the things that makes the site great.

Good news! The beta/new site has a search limit of 40 tags :)

That's great to hear, that means it will finally be possible to use search syntax more effectively.
So another thing - the syntax right now supports the "or" operator as "~" prefix - this makes it's usage very limited. Support for standard boolean operators would be much more useful.

For example let's say I'm looking for either a cat or a dog that have either brown or white fur. Such a search is impossible right now on e621.
The best you can do are two separate searches - "~cat ~dog brown_fur" and "~cat ~dog white_fur"

With boolean opearators however all I would need to do is this:
(cat | dog) & (brown_fur | white_fur)

That's a good point , I think it was raised before though..? Hopefully it's more possible with the new codebase.

It makes sense to me, given that that kind of operation is one of the things SQL tries hard to optimize.

I'd prefer to completely dispense with ~, personally, because I think it is not merely limited, but actively confusing (since ~ arguments can be mixed in anywhere in the search terms, but they actually act as a single compound predicate)-- the more formalized syntax you describe is only slightly more verbose but much more clear.

& is generally not needed. consider (cat | dog) (brown_fur | white_fur) the 'and' (or set intersection, if you prefer to think of it that way) is implicit in the outer clause, just as it would be in the simple query cat dog.

A natural extension of this would be negating compound predicates, as in (cat | dog) -(brown_fur | white_fur).

Theoretically, nested predicates would also be useful ((cat (brown_fur | white_fur) | dog (blue_fur | red_fur)) | armadillo).

savageorange said:
That's a good point , I think it was raised before though..? Hopefully it's more possible with the new codebase.

It makes sense to me, given that that kind of operation is one of the things SQL tries hard to optimize.

I'd prefer to completely dispense with ~, personally, because I think it is not merely limited, but actively confusing (since ~ arguments can be mixed in anywhere in the search terms, but they actually act as a single compound predicate)-- the more formalized syntax you describe is only slightly more verbose but much more clear.

& is generally not needed. consider (cat | dog) (brown_fur | white_fur) the 'and' (or set intersection, if you prefer to think of it that way) is implicit in the outer clause, just as it would be in the simple query cat dog.

A natural extension of this would be negating compound predicates, as in (cat | dog) -(brown_fur | white_fur).

Theoretically, nested predicates would also be useful ((cat (brown_fur | white_fur) | dog (blue_fur | red_fur)) | armadillo).

I know that & is implicit and therefore not needed, but personally I prefer to use it for visual clarity - finding the right space withing a forest of words, pipes, brackets etc. can be quite challenging, while & character is pretty unique and therefore stands out immediately.

Viperious said:
https://e621.net/post/show/943442 No penis visible, hard tagged Female, Flat_Chested. Anyone that tried to correct it was threatened with bans by Ratte and I also recieved a Neutral note as a warning. Also tagged as Femboy by the original artist.

https://e621.net/post/show/1999192/1-1-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-anime-blush-bow_tie Literally tagged as Female, Crossgender, MtF.

https://e621.net/post/show/1714629/2016-accessory-aged_down-ambiguous_gender-anal-ana Tagged as Ambiguous gender because you can only see his back.

https://e621.net/post/show/1604091/accessory-animal_humanoid-anime-cat_humanoid-cloth Literally tagged as a female even though the followup NSFW version of the same image has a penis.

https://e621.net/post/show/1436241/abstract_background-absurd_res-amber_eyes-animal_h Hard tagged as Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1436104/abdominal_bulge-absurd_res-ambiguous_gender-animal Tagged as both Ambiguous gender and Flat chested, Female

https://e621.net/post/show/1347923/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_hair-cat_ Tagged as female. You were called a transphobe in this one.

https://e621.net/post/show/1412825/4-3-amber_eyes-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedding-bed Tagged female even though the artist that made the image tagged him as a Femboy

https://e621.net/post/show/1347919/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-brown_eyes-brown_h Tagged as flat_Chested female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1347916/accessory-animal_humanoid-blush-bow-brown_eyes-bro Tagged as Flat Chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1334042/animal_humanoid-arm_warmers-armwear-blush-bow-brow Tagged as flat chested Female.

https://e621.net/post/show/1331280/-3-accessory-animal_humanoid-armwear-bedroom_eyes- Tagged as flat chested Female.

And that's just for Felix Argyle.

Yeah people are dumb when it comes to felix.

iceink said:
Felix is canonically trans anyways: https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/7r7pxt/felix_effectively_confirmed_genuinely_trans/

The tags are accurate, it's a female character.

Wrong. No vag, no boobs, is not female. Tag what you see applies here. Thats outside info.

iceink said:
Felix is canonically trans anyways: https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/7r7pxt/felix_effectively_confirmed_genuinely_trans/

The tags are accurate, it's a female character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Oq0cOaTFU&app=desktop

I disagree, He isnt trans, just a girly male.

Cat1778 said:
Wrong. No vag, no boobs, is not female. Tga what you see applies here. Thats outside info.

no. wrong. characters don't have to have visible breasts or pussy to be tagged female, ferals exist, flatchested exists.

My main takeaway from this thread is that when the _(lore) tags come into effect I'm going to have just as much fun watching the arguments about what a character's canonical gender is.

What's the tag-lock protocol even going to be there?

darryus said:
no. wrong. characters don't have to have visible breasts or pussy to be tagged female, ferals exist, flatchested exists.

This isnt a feral, argument is invalid. Tag what you see applies here. But tagging something "Female" with lack of boobs, vag etc...is just wrong. ambiguous_gender is the correct tag here

MagnusEffect said:
My main takeaway from this thread is that when the _(lore) tags come into effect I'm going to have just as much fun watching the arguments about what a character's canonical gender is.

What's the tag-lock protocol even going to be there?

Same it is for the current tag lock? Whatever the admin feels like at the time, its been changed by other admins before.

Cat1778 said:
This isnt a feral, argument is invalid. Tag what you see applies here. But tagging something "Female" with lack of boobs, vag etc...is just wrong. ambiguous_gender is the correct tag here

howto:tag genders

Neither (penis or pussy) or rating:s → male, female, ambiguous_gender

Masculine or feminine body?
Masculine → male
Feminine → female
Neither/both/unsure → ambiguous_gender, featureless_crotch

characters do not need breasts to be female

Cat1778 said:
Yeah people are dumb when it comes to felix.

You do realize that the way traps work is that they are visually purely female outside their genitals? Also that our tagging system is purely based on visual information? With Steins;Gate they go so far as to remind you every episode "..but they are a dude tho" and even having plotpoint of them actually turning into a girl and they do not change visually at all. So if artwork of them is posted here and we tagged sex/gender based on lore would they be tagged as male or female as they are born male and born female in the show and aren't trans? And how about people who do not know the show but clearly see them as female?

At that point all of the posts of that character should be tagged as female unless their genitals are visible, if they are drawn in way that they look officially.

And maybe, just maybe, there's exclusion in the TWYS policy for character names, so that if you know the character to be male, then you can simply search with the characters name.

It just feels like everyone immidiately forgets how tagging here has worked for decade the moment it impacts on single specific character and then starts to shit on it and work againts it but only with that one single character instead of every character. All of the edge cases and questions are out the window because my waifu has a dick for fucks sake!

Also as the new site is going to already have raised tag search limit, lore tags and much more which are already fixing most if not all of these problems, I have no idea why is this still being debated upon here?

Hello. A lot of the early part of this topic discusses the use of the word "trap". I apologize for reopening that can of worms, but I thought my perspective might be considered valuable, because I am a self-identified trap, as are a few of my close friends. Effeminate boys use various terms to describe themselves but in my circles it's generally "femboy" or "trap", with some people having a strong preference for one over the other.

Despite not being trans (but generally not hetero), we already face plenty of discrimination from homophobes and transphobes, so it's quite hurtful and disheartening when our own side, i.e. LGBT folk, the ones who are supposed to be accepting and tolerant of minorities, invalidate our identity by calling it a slur. It feels like we are being rejected by everyone. We try to be respectful towards trans folk and none of us would ever call a trans person a trap, because that's not what the word means. A trap is a cis person who presents as the opposite sex. Just because it's insulting when used to refer to a trans person does not make it a slur. It's insulting to call a trans woman a man, or a crossdresser, but "man" and "crossdresser" are not slurs. They're useful words with genuine use cases.

"Trap" is what we refer to ourselves as. It's a word constructed specifically to refer to people like us. It wasn't made to refer to trans people and I sincerely ask trans people to please not take it away from us. You don't even want it. Let us have the word that we feel comfortable calling ourselves.

S-35 said:
Hello. A lot of the early part of this topic discusses the use of the word "trap". I apologize for reopening that can of worms, but I thought my perspective might be considered valuable, because I am a self-identified trap, as are a few of my close friends. Effeminate boys use various terms to describe themselves but in my circles it's generally "femboy" or "trap", with some people having a strong preference for one over the other.

Despite not being trans (but generally not hetero), we already face plenty of discrimination from homophobes and transphobes, so it's quite hurtful and disheartening when our own side, i.e. LGBT folk, the ones who are supposed to be accepting and tolerant of minorities, invalidate our identity by calling it a slur. It feels like we are being rejected by everyone. We try to be respectful towards trans folk and none of us would ever call a trans person a trap, because that's not what the word means. A trap is a cis person who presents as the opposite sex. Just because it's insulting when used to refer to a trans person does not make it a slur. It's insulting to call a trans woman a man, or a crossdresser, but "man" and "crossdresser" are not slurs. They're useful words with genuine use cases.

"Trap" is what we refer to ourselves as. It's a word constructed specifically to refer to people like us. It wasn't made to refer to trans people and I sincerely ask trans people to please not take it away from us. You don't even want it. Let us have the word that we feel comfortable calling ourselves.

;/

I dont mean to sound rude but when an account that has literally just been made starts commenting this sort of thing, drawing out the same tired arguments that we've seen rolled out and peddled again and again, I have to wonder what kind of agenda is being pushed here. Trap is a word that has literally gotten people killed so uh, I don't know how your cloverqueer identity shtick fits into that.

Trap has always had the connotation of a male person dressing or acting in a way with the intention of "Trapping" or "Tricking" a "straight man" into a homosexual encounter and has literally no value whatsoever in any vernacular. This argument is intentionally reductive and tries to use existing PC terminology to try to sound like its part of the conversation when its clearly bad faith.

I dunno what the goal is here.

Trap is a bad word to call someone.

Demesejha said:
Trap is a word that has literally gotten people killed

So has gay, and it's also used negatively by people with negative intentions. And it also had a different meaning (happy, joyful) before being taken over as a euphemism for homosexuality.

Demesejha said:
Trap has always had the connotation of a male person dressing or acting in a way with the intention of "Trapping" or "Tricking" a "straight man" into a homosexual encounter and has literally no value whatsoever in any vernacular.

...except to describe a person or character that dresses/acts in such a way to "trick" people into believing they're a different gender. It has no value in being used as a reference to a trans person, sure, and probably even references behavior that shouldn't be done in real life, but you just gave a description where it has application in common vernacular.

S-35 said:
Hello. A lot of the early part of this topic discusses the use of the word "trap". I apologize for reopening that can of worms, but I thought my perspective might be considered valuable, because I am a self-identified trap, as are a few of my close friends. Effeminate boys use various terms to describe themselves but in my circles it's generally "femboy" or "trap", with some people having a strong preference for one over the other.

Despite not being trans (but generally not hetero), we already face plenty of discrimination from homophobes and transphobes, so it's quite hurtful and disheartening when our own side, i.e. LGBT folk, the ones who are supposed to be accepting and tolerant of minorities, invalidate our identity by calling it a slur. It feels like we are being rejected by everyone. We try to be respectful towards trans folk and none of us would ever call a trans person a trap, because that's not what the word means. A trap is a cis person who presents as the opposite sex. Just because it's insulting when used to refer to a trans person does not make it a slur. It's insulting to call a trans woman a man, or a crossdresser, but "man" and "crossdresser" are not slurs. They're useful words with genuine use cases.

"Trap" is what we refer to ourselves as. It's a word constructed specifically to refer to people like us. It wasn't made to refer to trans people and I sincerely ask trans people to please not take it away from us. You don't even want it. Let us have the word that we feel comfortable calling ourselves.

I will continue my campaign to protect traps as they are what I love

What do you call a femboy with a padded bra?

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
What do you call a femboy with a padded bra?

A booby trap :3

According to Tag what you see, you would call them
>Female
>Boobs

Demesejha said:
I dont mean to sound rude but when an account that has literally just been made starts commenting this sort of thing, drawing out the same tired arguments that we've seen rolled out and peddled again and again, I have to wonder what kind of agenda is being pushed here. Trap is a word that has literally gotten people killed so uh, I don't know how your cloverqueer identity shtick fits into that.

This is a substantiated observation. If you're willing to believe me, I'm a long-time lurker who always appreciated the fact that e621 may be browsed in its entirety without registering an account unlike, say, FA, for the simple reason that I don't like having accounts. I registered one specifically to respond in another topic, but then this one drew my attention. I understand the distrust, but I have no ill will, and I intend to continue using this account.

I overdramatized for the purpose of the previous post but the fact is the trap community exists and I'm part of it. I do not know what our numbers are; we're certainly not as many as the trans community, but we're there, and we deserve human treatment like you do. We're not, strictly speaking, queer, and trap is not a gender identity. The traps I know identify as male. It's more of a... subculture? Hobby? Kink? I'm not sure.

I'm sorry that transphobes abuse the word and got people killed. I want discrimination to end as much as you do. I just don't believe that taking one word away from their vocabulary will make them any less hateful. Like I said, I try my best to be respectful and tolerant. By the very nature of our community, many of our friends are transgender because spending time with us leads to their self-discovery as trans women. Others remain male because some of us are genuinely cis. None of us want harm towards the trans community. All we want is for others to understand that not everything that can and has been used in a hateful context is a slur.

Demesejha said:
Trap has always had the connotation of a male person dressing or acting in a way with the intention of "Trapping" or "Tricking" a "straight man" into a homosexual encounter and has literally no value whatsoever in any vernacular. This argument is intentionally reductive and tries to use existing PC terminology to try to sound like its part of the conversation when its clearly bad faith.

I'm sorry if my argument came across this way. We are tired. We have to defend this word often because this discussion comes up regularly and we are outnumbered.

Your interpretation of the word "trap" is on the right track, except that none of us would wish to trick anyone into a "homosexual encounter". That sounds rude towards the other party and extremely dangerous to ourselves. We're happy enough to be passing as women or androgynous. We're happy to hear hesitation in others' voice as they choose a pronoun to refer to us. We remain proponents of consent and being open to our partners.

Demesejha said:
I dunno what the goal is here.

Trap is a bad word to call someone.

And yet we call it ourselves and we're happy to be called it by others. You should not refer that way to people who do not consent to it, but the same thing applies to words "man", "woman", and all gender pronouns. "Trap" implies not only that we're trying to look feminine but also that we're succeeding, i.e. "could fool somebody"; this is literally what we're trying to achieve when we crossdress. We are boys who want to look feminine. When someone calls me a trap, it signals to me that the effort and money I put into my diet, exercise, hair removal, makeup, and clothes, has actually paid off.

My goal is, genuinely, to raise awareness. We exist, the word was always meant to refer to us, and you're being hurtful towards real people when you say it is a slur or ban its legitimate uses. We don't mean harm to anyone but we don't want our words taken away from us.

I have to wonder why intent and context never matter in these discussions

Demesejha said: Trap is a word that has literally gotten people killed

???

How could someone die from the word tra- *explodes into 51 000 000 nonbinary pieces*

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
How could someone die from the word tra- *explodes into 51 000 000 nonbinary pieces*

teehee it's cute and edgy to mock the deaths of all the transwomen who have been violently murdered because of trans panic

iceink said:
teehee it's cute and edgy to mock the deaths of all the transwomen who have been violently murdered because of trans panic

Sorry, didn't think that through. This is such a shitstorm that I dont know what to take seriously, but that doesn't excuse making jokes about hate crime murder.

Still words don't kill people. (Unless we're talking suicides, but that's another, albeit kinda related, matter)

Everyone's take on the word "trap" is a little different.

What it means has already been explained. The attraction to "traps" in media as a whole is not that hard to understand. I'll give my short understanding.

The attraction to 'traps' is about being attracted to their femininity. Whether or not the "dick makes it better" is up to the beholder. Not knowing and trying to figure it out may be part of that attraction. One may know already and simply like to play on the denial part of it (being playful about it). Hence people often saying "I'm not gay, buuuuuuut"

Would I use it to describe a character like Felix or Pepo from the count of Monte Cristo? Yes.

Some people like to be called that irl, I'm sure. It is used as a means to describe a person who looks like a girl, but is possibly a guy (pretty much is, but sometimes it is never revealed. I'm lookin at you Kuroyuri ). Whether or not there was an intent to trick people makes no difference. They still look effeminate, and that is the attraction.

With all due respect, it doesn't refer to trans people.

All in all, using the word trap to describe an effeminate possibly male character is harmless. To answer OP, the tag "trap" won't be used in the system because there's better ways of searching for the things we enjoy here. When tagging, rely on visual keys and tag as best you can. Follow the guide to tagging if you need help. Luckily, the new site which will allow for users to have more freedom in tag searching. Plus, I hear lore tags will be a thing.

https://e621.net/wiki/show?title=trap_%28disambiguation%29