Chaser said:
The terms are not SJW in any way, and are actually scientific biology terms, so we have actual science on our side with this one! It makes the terms less vulgar while actually making sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromorph
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynomorph

Just some Greek words that mean roughly "manly" and "girly".

This is a very SJW-ish change, about as much as it can be. "We hereby declare cuntboy to be a slur, from now on we shall use (another word) instead". Nothing else changes, but now fingers will be pointed at those who say "cuntboy".

If I'm tracking the origin of this right, the word itself wasn't the problem. It's a legit tag. Not offensive at all when used appropriately. There are probably artists who would prefer to see it on their works, who are into this stuff, and users who would search for it. But it's a very very niche tag, and there are very few images that should legitimately carry it.

The problem is, you pick an image and say, this be a boy. Because we say so. Oh he's got a cunt?.. huh well it's a cunt-boy then. But we said boy so boy it is. Everyone who disagrees shall be banned.

This isn't changing. You still want to keep it so that this would be "andro" and that would be "gyno", and one of them should always be tagged according to arcane rules in the wiki. And regardless of anything else, like for instance common sense. The only change is some new Greek flavor.

On top of that you've now got a full-blown SJW discussion on whether a random word is offensive to some irrelevant minority of the week.

hslugs said:
Nothing else changes, but now fingers will be pointed at those who say "cuntboy".

No? We are not banning the words, we are just making the officially tagged words different. You can still tag cuntboy/dickgirl, search cuntboy/dickgirl, or even link it like cuntboy or dickgirl.
You can even say cuntboy and dickgirl in the comments. It's perfectly fine. We will not be censoring those, nor be frowning upon it's usage. We simply wanted to make the tags less vulgar since it is directly referring to a character. People can still tag stuff like fucked_silly and what not, we are not censoring words.
If people start attacking people over usage of "cuntboy" or "dickgirl" in comments, simply report them and we will hand out warnings.

Anonomn said:

Well huh, genuinely wasn't expecting a level headed response, thanks Ninosi, guess I'll try and do the same:

'Gender'/Sex

Blanketing it in purely under appearance would make it way too broad to talk about properly, as that gets into pretty much every physical aspect of a given person/character. So I for one would advocate strictly using "Physical Sex" or "Biological Sex" (which the latter can get slightly dicier given that we're not strictly dealing with the literally possible with things like magic and artists doing literally whatever with characters) to avoid confusion/incorrect connotation.

'Gender'/Physical sex tags

Yes that was completely hyperbole on my part from a combination of the fact TWYS accounts for what is literally there, and male/female encompasses a myriad of specifics that could be equally served by only listing those things out individually, and the fact a small subsection of people are always gonna be butthurt by the very notion 99% of people are in fact strictly male or female

I wouldn't remotely want to genuinely suggest getting rid of them, for exactly the reasons you said.

Separate category

My disdain for such steams from thinking it's needed, outside of the 4% of images (really quick napkin math based on the number you said, and the 2million said is the number of images on e621) that'd make genuine use out of it to appease again the people who stroke their ego to making changes for the sake of putting their mark on something, regardless of whether it was genuinely warranted.

Alternate tag suggestions

Yes male_with_vagina male_with_pussy and female_with_penis is longer and wordier than gynomorph/andromorph, but the problem that was trying to address is no one knows what the hell a "andromorph" is, nor for reasons explained far better than I it doesn't really truly apply. "male_with_pussy" on the other hand, while still pushing the wordiness issue, describes exactly what it is with zero frills and literally no one is gonna question what it is. I still say dickgirl and cuntboy serve to do this far more elegantly, but the goal seems to be to swap them out for a perceived notion that they're problem, so we're trying to come up with an alternative that still serves the exact same function without question/issue. Doing so is obviously a impossible task given the simplicity of dickgirl and cuntboy, so compromise will have to be made, and in the spirit of "Tag what you see", I'd say male_with_pussy and female_with_penis does this the best.

I appreciate the well thought out response! I'll try to organize mine like you did.

I spent way too much time on this post.

If I don't respond with anything specific, it's only because I don't disagree with or have anything to add to what you've already said.

Thank you for being civil with a subject matter that people can easily get into a screeching fit over.

Anonomn said:

If I don't respond with anything specific, it's only because I don't disagree with or have anything to add to what you've already said.

Physical Sex tags

I wouldn't want to get rid of male/female/intersex tags, again the initial statement was hyperbole, given that there's a limit on number of things that can be searched in one go, and with "Tag what you see" without the physical sex tags it makes it literally impossible to differentiate from a lithe male and a equally lithe female who's flat chested, both wearing pants and no discernible buldge, with tags.
Guess I'll say again dickgirl and cuntboy are still the most elegant descriptions for this, if a bit blunt, you can reasonably have. Getting bent out of shape about it when it's well established that the tags are completely agnostic to what peoples feelings of them are seems a bit, just why?

New tag category

How many tags even are there for sexual characteristics? While I'm still opposed for a section dedicated to 'male/female/intersex/etc', I'd be down for a section that encompasses that and everything else that applies to the person / people physically, so what genetalia they have/don't have, kinds of tails, horns, wings, etc. The general section tends to get kinda bloated and makes it hard to see if there's a specific tag in there when there's hundreds of tags. I'd call it something like "Physical Characteristics" Maybe even have a way to separate into multiple subsections so you can specify what aspects go to which characters, though I don't know how feasible that'd be with the current framework.

Alt. tags

No question the one with the newer tags looks cleaner, but the male_with_pussy/female_with_penis has the benefit of someone who's never been to e621 before can look at the tag and know exactly what it means, which has been my point this entire time. Plus stuff like one_eye_closed and digital_media_(artwork) I'd say are at a equal level of clunky but functional.

Thank you for being civil with a subject matter that people can easily get into a screeching fit over.

I do wish more people were as civil, honestly. The alternative gets nowhere fast.

I'll just comment on a few things here.

Interesting change.

The new terms, to me, are confusing and easily forgettable, and would have been a problem.

But since the aliases allow using the same search terms as before, it shouldn't be an issue (apart from potentially mild confusion when looking at a picture's tags after/without a search and not seeing the tag you were looking for initially), so I have no complaints.

I preferred the original terms, but I guess I can understand why others would find them unpleasant.

Qwazzy said:
Interesting change.

The new terms, to me, are confusing and easily forgettable, and would have been a problem.

But since the aliases allow using the same search terms as before, it shouldn't be an issue (apart from potentially mild confusion when looking at a picture's tags after/without a search and not seeing the tag you were looking for initially), so I have no complaints.

I preferred the original terms, but I guess I can understand why others would find them unpleasant.

This completely. I fully admit to rolling my eyes when I saw the words chosen.

But the old ones are still usable, so if this has less people getting huffy at the site then more power to it I suppose

As long as search functionality isn't impaired in any way, I don't care, so i'm fine with this.

Whoops! Looks like whoever set the "gynomorph" tag turned it into a character!

Talarin said:
Whoops! Looks like whoever set the "gynomorph" tag turned it into a character!

The current aliasing process needs to finish before it can be changed, but at that point we can change it.

Stormwatch said:
This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

hslugs said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromorph
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynomorph

Just some Greek words that mean roughly "manly" and "girly".

This is a very SJW-ish change, about as much as it can be. "We hereby declare cuntboy to be a slur, from now on we shall use (another word) instead". Nothing else changes, but now fingers will be pointed at those who say "cuntboy".

Cyberpunk 2069. The world is now split into two camps, the gynoidmorphs and the androidmorphs. The cis scum (cuntgirls and dickboys) caught in the middle are the lowest of the slave castes.

But seriously, 99% of users will adapt or just type the old tag. The change may be "SJWish" but I don't think you have to be an "SJW" to see that "cuntboy" and "dickgirl" are not perfect.

In Greek mythology and religion, a gynomorph was a bi-gendered god with both masculine and feminine characteristics. Gynomorphs were portrayed as effeminate young males, like Dionysos, a masculine god who possessed distinctly feminine features. Gynomorphs retained the creative capacity of female divinities, they had cosmic wombs, but they also possessed the inseminating abilities attributed to male divinities.

Cosmic womb? Inseminating abilities? How could you stay mad at that?!

Here's what I want to know. How many artists have submitted takedowns over these tags? At least 10? Maybe many more since takedown details are usually hidden. And can we get any of them to remove DNP status? Or will they stay perpetually offended that we ever had c-boy and d-girl tags at all or hate on the new tags? I fear that may be the case, and it will prove that respecting artists and their copyrights, as well as users' feelings, is a losing strategy for an art archive.

Gross, people in here going full-ass alt right over an attempt to make intersex people feel more welcome. Imagine being so petty.

Honestly, "dickgirl" was better, because at least y'all were acknowledging that I'm a girl lmao

"Less vulgar" ? Come on, you are a PORN ARCHIVE! I'll still use dickgirl/cuntboy despite the alternate words available.

Plus I fucking hate political correctness/SJW nonsense, please do not seep this crap into the archive.

And for the record, I am a moderate leaning left and a dude.

If you need to state that, you probably aren't.

FurZ said:
If you need to state that, you probably aren't.

Please do not misgender @Glaice.

Glaice said:
"Less vulgar" ? Come on, you are a PORN ARCHIVE! I'll still use dickgirl/cuntboy despite the alternate words available.

Plus I fucking hate political correctness/SJW nonsense, please do not seep this crap into the archive.

And for the record, I am a moderate leaning left and a dude.

We are furry artwork archive, just happens that majority of furry artists do porn and majority of users interest is to help with porn specifically.
However we do still have many dedicated users mainly handling safe material and even some users who only access e926.

And yeah, I also definitely hate the notion of changing stuff simply to please audience that's most vocal. Considering that only thing changing here is that these words are now not forced onto posts and nothing else, I mostly see this as only positive change for anyone knowing how shit here works, because on technical level nothing changes for regular user.

Glopossum said:
Honestly, "dickgirl" was better, because at least y'all were acknowledging that I'm a girl lmao

This is kinda why this has taken so goddamn long and why there has been so much discussion about this. Because every single individual has their own opinion and solutions to this problem and none align. This at least makes it so that no vulgar terms are enforced by the system on the page and everyone can still comment, put up description or make wiki for character to give more information and explanation.

Maybe we should've just gone with the term "vagentleman" and similar instead.

Glaice said:
"Less vulgar" ? Come on, you are a PORN ARCHIVE! I'll still use dickgirl/cuntboy despite the alternate words available.

Plus I fucking hate political correctness/SJW nonsense, please do not seep this crap into the archive.

And for the record, I am a moderate leaning left and a dude.

Pro tip: read through the thread.

Mairo said: This is kinda why this has taken so goddamn long and why there has been so much discussion about this. Because every single individual has their own opinion and solutions to this problem and none align. This at least makes it so that no vulgar terms are enforced by the system on the page and everyone can still comment, put up description or make wiki for character to give more information and explanation.

Maybe we should've just gone with the term "vagentleman" and similar instead.

And my guess is that adding a new parameter for gender tags that are exempt from TWYS a'la character tags is more work than folks are making it out to be. The work would just be appreciated by the fairly large and growing genderqueer community within the furry fandom!

At the very least, changing "dickgirl," the only tag available for transfemme characters, over to a term that breaks down to "a male with female characteristics," feels like a step backwards. Crude as it is, "dickgirl" at least acknowledges that the character self-identifies as a girl, which is generally the case for most of these characters. Gynomorph seems like it'd be better suited for femboys.

And apologies if I'm parroting what others have already said, I've only really skimmed through the thread.

Glopossum said:
And my guess is that adding a new parameter for gender tags that are exempt from TWYS a'la character tags is more work than folks are making it out to be. The work would just be appreciated by the fairly large and growing genderqueer community within the furry fandom!

This is already literally a thing, like I literally just said: charcter name tags.

Tags still do not alter reality, tags are there to signify visually perceived information.

Making gender tags just for trans people would be excluding them and putting them on pedestal, they would be the only ones with VIP pass to bypass whole system in place. Alternates that I have heard of have been not tagging genders at all (only tagging body shape and genitalia) which would most likely end up extremely badly considering how many use those terms or excluding genders from TWYS, which would pretty much be enforcing the change on whole website, which would take years to complete and most likely impossible task, requiring us to actually hire people just to research and keep track of stuff.

And like said, main issue is that everyone has their own opinions and solutions, many with not enough knowledge or data of subject matter or how site functions, operates and software it's build upon, so even discussing any of these changes ends up in flames.

Glopossum said:

And my guess is that adding a new parameter for gender tags that are exempt from TWYS a'la character tags is more work than folks are making it out to be. The work would just be appreciated by the fairly large and growing genderqueer community within the furry fandom!

At the very least, changing "dickgirl," the only tag available for transfemme characters, over to a term that breaks down to "a male with female characteristics," feels like a step backwards. Crude as it is, "dickgirl" at least acknowledges that the character self-identifies as a girl, which is generally the case for most of these characters. Gynomorph seems like it'd be better suited for femboys.

And apologies if I'm parroting what others have already said, I've only really skimmed through the thread.

I feel like the new terms are distancing the tags away from gender for intersex characters altogether. We're only tagging the body type + genitals anyway and the new tags pretty much emphasize that.

No need to have the intersex tags be gendered when there's usually no way to tell how a character feels just by looking at their body.

As for tags supporting the genderqueer community, visibly trans is still a thing.

Mairo said:
This is already literally a thing, like I literally just said: charcter name tags.

Tags still do not alter reality, tags are there to signify visually perceived information.

Making gender tags just for trans people would be excluding them and putting them on pedestal, they would be the only ones with VIP pass to bypass whole system in place. Alternates that I have heard of have been not tagging genders at all (only tagging body shape and genitalia) which would most likely end up extremely badly considering how many use those terms or excluding genders from TWYS, which would pretty much be enforcing the change on whole website, which would take years to complete and most likely impossible task, requiring us to actually hire people just to research and keep track of stuff.

And like said, main issue is that everyone has their own opinions and solutions, many with not enough knowledge or data of subject matter or how site functions, operates and software it's build upon, so even discussing any of these changes ends up in flames.

It was a suggestion for something to perhaps work toward in the future, not an immediate demand!

And apologies for being unclear! Currently existing gender tags would also be reorganized into this hypothetical new category (again, probably more work than I give it credit for (and if it is, just say so!)), which would just put transfolk on par with everyone else. I'd call that inclusive more than anything else. But if you'd consider that confusing or convoluted, then I don't think you're giving your userbase enough credit tbh

But I reiterate, dickgirl's at least better than gynomorph, for now.

Glopossum said:
It was a suggestion for something to perhaps work toward in the future, not an immediate demand!

And apologies for being unclear! Currently existing gender tags would also be reorganized into this hypothetical new category (again, probably more work than I give it credit for (and if it is, just say so!)), which would just put transfolk on par with everyone else. I'd call that inclusive more than anything else. But if you'd consider that confusing or convoluted, then I don't think you're giving your userbase enough credit tbh

But I reiterate, dickgirl's at least better than gynomorph, for now.

I think this would make more sense if we stopped looking at them as "gender" tags, and instead as "sex" tags, since we are using them to define the character's visible sex characteristics, and not their self-chosen gender that they decide upon, as that is something that would be TWYK/outside information and that is something that we try to steer clear from as much as we can when deciding what tags to apply to an image.

Lance_Armstrong said:
Please do not misgender @Glaice.

Left leaning, I meant.

Mairo said:
...Alternates that I have heard of have been not tagging genders at all...

I just want to repeat that 'suggestion' was still a hyperbole on my part and wasn't remotely intended to be a serious suggestion, given that would throw a massive monkey wrench into the tag system that's already held together with bubblegum and a prayer in the more precarious parts.
In the (likely) event people weren't reading the back and forth on the last page, I'd agree that trying to upsurge TWYS in favor of appeasing the trans people is a terrible idea that only serves to stroke egos to that whole mess, what I would suggest as a genuine serious suggestion is creating / splitting "Physical Appearance" as it's own tag category that'd encompass physical sexuality & genitalia, body structure, anatomical features, etc. away from the general tags, as not only does that not make it seem like we're playing favorites to a movement, but it genuinely makes finding / seeing if specific aspects of a character are there a whole lot easier than shifting through the hundreds of general tags that can build up if something is particularly well tagged.

Kodanis said:
That's a great idea and will hopefully cause most of the bickering over gender tag names to cease!

The primary issue with genders is tag what you see, where the same character in the same comic can go from male to female to d-girl to herm to whatever.

NotMeNotYou said:
Also I just realized I didn't actually quote and reply to this part:
People kept tagging gay on male solo images to denote the character's sexual orientation, despite the tag gay being supposed to be used for actually male homosexual actions happening in the image.
And even with the alias being as it it people still try to tag gay on solo images, which has to be cleaned up regularly.

As such, this example is an entirely different shoe altogether.

Right, I totally understand that, and honestly I rather like male/male. The only thing I don't like about that whole thing, was that I'm somewhat disappointed it wasn't taken further.

I'd kinda like to see a difference between male/female and female/male, for example, to denote who's "on top" or in a more dominant position. Same could be said for herm/male to indicate a herm dominating a male, vs. male/herm to indicate a male dominating a herm.

But that's an entirely different discussion and debate, and is still not a complaint, per se.

____________

Aanyway, back on-topic... I'd like to emphasize that while I may think the current change is unnecessary, I also do not have a problem with there being a change to begin with. I still remember the first time I heard the term cuntboy and thought, "Wow, can't believe that's actually the official tag."

I just personally also believe that gynomorph and andromorph are the wrong change, due to new user usability, discoverability, and consistency with other places (both online and offline).

Because these terms are not used anywhere other than here, and because without already knowing the Greek root words it would be impossible to guess what the tag names mean at a glance (think of users from Japan which might be mostly fluent in English, but not when it comes to more niche details), I feel that it would be worth it to find better terms than these.

That's why I proposed female_(male_genitals) and male_(female_genitals). There'd be no confusion about, for example with the former, "Do they have boobs and penis, and still have a vagina?" since the tag name would directly state male genitals. Males don't have a vagina, so there is no ambiguity. It's even less ambiguous than dickgirl in that regard.

I imagine someone in that other thread had proposed something like female_(with_penis) (though nothing in that thread pops up when I search the forum for it; and the forum search seems to not want to do an exact text search to begin with..), but I can see why that'd be ambiguous and undesirable.

FurryMcFuzzball said:
It finally happened, we caved to the changed a tag that wasn't inherently offensive because too many people complained.

Meh, I didn't like the terms myself, they are kinda weird and I'm cool with the change.

I haven't really read through the thread and don't intend to participate further because I'm allergic to drama, I'm just here to give my opinion since there's no poll that I saw at a glance:

In theory, I like those tags being less vulgar. Speaking as a trans person, they don't offend me, and I, personally, haven't seen too much in the way of people using them as slurs, unless you count the fact that they're inherently porn terms as slur-ish. Still, I just feel uncomfortable saying "Oh, I'm a big fan of dickgirls"; it feels kind of weird.

However, I don't like these specific replacements, because they convey less information than what they're replacing. "Andromorph" just logically means having a male-looking body, and would be a valid description for males with penises as well. If the use case were different, I'd suggest removing gender from the equation entirely, and just applying "andromorph" to anyone with a male looking body regardless of genitals, and likewise for "gynomorph". But this use case is a porn site, so precise targeting for both fetish searches and blacklists is important.

So really the only thing to be done is use a different replacement tag that still actually conveys "female with a penis" etc. I don't see what's wrong with male_with_vagina or female_with_penis. They're less snappy, but a lot of our tags aren't snappy, and they're intuitive and easy to remember. Those would have my backing if it came to a vote.

Glopossum said:
Honestly, "dickgirl" was better, because at least y'all were acknowledging that I'm a girl lmao

Shit, ain't that the truth.

Tynach said:
Interesting stuff.

Well said.

Basically the change is fine if it makes people less likely to be offended.

The words chosen are just very bad. Even your suggestion, female_(male_genitals) and male_(female_genitals), wordy as it is, does a better job describing what it is tagged on then the greek that is being shoe horned in here

How dare you offend all these alt-righters.

Complain about "dickgirl", "cuntboy" ect, and use this:

cis people.

Stormwatch said:
This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

Glaice said:
"Less vulgar" ? Come on, you are a PORN ARCHIVE! I'll still use dickgirl/cuntboy despite the alternate words available.

Plus I fucking hate political correctness/SJW nonsense, please do not seep this crap into the archive.

And for the record, I am a moderate leaning left and a dude.

SjW pOlItIcAlLy CoRrEcT bUlLsHiT lmaooo you idiots are so mad over this and I love it. Like.. it actually makes you so mad to see minority groups getting tags that aren't slurs!! What happened to you to make you like this? Gynomorph and andromorph are scientific terms and I thought all of you were about FaCtS aNd LoGiC, but I guess not! so uhhhh.. die mad about it

BuT nO oNe SaYs gYnOmOrPh / AnDrOmOrPh !1111!!!!!! no one actually says male/male or female/female either, we still say "gay" and "lesbian" but guess what? They're still tagged as they are!! die mad about it!

bUt YoU'rE a PoRn ArChIvE !11!!!! yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn who cares?? that's not an excuse for having slurs as tags. and really as far as i know, dickgirl / cuntboy were the only slur tags on here. so, die mad about it

I saw the change, and said "what the fuck is a gynomorph?" I didn't even know that word existed, and looking it up, the meaning isn't less kind that dickgirl. It literally is a organism with female traits, which seems de"humanizing".

Upforanything said:
I saw the change, and said "what the fuck is a gynomorph?" I didn't even know that word existed, and looking it up, the meaning isn't less kind that dickgirl. It literally is a organism with female traits, which seems de"humanizing".

it is a FUCK TON more kind than "dickgirl" and "cuntboy". those are slurs! gynomorph and andromorph are scientific terms which is way better than a slur!

BlackLicorice said:
it is a FUCK TON more kind than "dickgirl" and "cuntboy". those are slurs! gynomorph and andromorph are scientific terms which is way better than a slur!

I get that, but at least they recognize the person, rather than stating that the thing being described is "Just a thing".

How about they make it so users can choose what words they see?

Upforanything said:
I get that, but at least they recognize the person, rather than stating that the thing being described is "Just a thing".

How about they make it so users can choose what words they see?

Really, as I've said, we're not tagging their gender. We're tagging their body type + genitals. So more scientific terms actually help with this purpose.

The only reason male and female are still used is because most people know what body type and genitals to expect when they see the terms.

Upforanything said:
I saw the change, and said "what the fuck is a gynomorph?" I didn't even know that word existed, and looking it up, the meaning isn't less kind that dickgirl. It literally is a organism with female traits, which seems de"humanizing".

"Male" is defined as any organism with the ability to create sperm, but can't create ovum. I'm not sure how a definition like that is dehumanizing just because it's also used for organisms that aren't human. Gynomorph is just a greek word instead of an old middle english one, and just means any biological male with a female body.

FurZ said:
How dare you offend all these alt-righters.

You've spent your entire time in this thread trying to troll people. Do you not have anything valuable to say?

Although dickgirl and cuntboy are vulgar, they are only vulgar in the sense that they are sexual. People here supporting the change by calling them "slurs" are omitting the context they are being used: a porn site. To make such a change under this basis sounds ridiculous, and I'm disappointed the staff failed to describe the broader beneficial change this would lead to in the fandom. Not only would it "appease" existing artists and character disputes, but it can also affect the way new characters are defined when created and not just when tagged here, in which whatever new tags could very likely become the standard and achieve their accuracy that way. I think this website represents a lot of the fandom and that it could actually work.

However, gynomorph and andromorph will not do. No matter how many times you explain it, if people don't naturally connect the word and definition, it won't catch on. Relying on greek roots seems to fail since they only naturally explain words that are already in use. If the words were already in common use then it'd make sense because we'd see how "andro" describes what we already understand as an "andromorph", but looking at andromorph without knowing what it means you can only build "male...form?" That can be interpreted a million different ways to the average user.

I worry because I do not think these words will catch on, and it will only make the site look more silly than it needs to. Please listen to some of the suggestions in the thread for better tags. I know this site tends to make rash decisions and stick with it, but there's still time to fix it before it becomes a scene.

I guess whether you consider my comments valuable depends on whether you think that type of person is worth taking seriously in the first place. I don't. I was done anyway, already have admins crawling up my ass.

FurZ said:
I was done anyway, already have admins crawling up my ass.

Funny, it's almost as if there's a reason for that.

k

Stop. Both of you.

I've never posted in one of these before so hopefully I'm doing it right, but -
Mixed feelings about the change, I largely agree with the sentiments of the other people here who've stated that they're transgender. It feels nice that the terms are being changed, but I personally am unsure of the ones that have been chosen as replacements. On one hand, 'gynomorph' and 'andromorph' have been used historically to imply that something has "x features, but isn't really x," and I think that's the major issue trans people have with the backgrounds of the terms themselves. On the other, the old terms are something a lot of us disliked and wanted replaced for a very long time. And both stances make sense. I don't think either is ideal, and even amongst trans people there's going to be a lot of disagreement. But I can appreciate that an attempt is being made. Thank you for that!

There's no easy solution, and it sucks. I've thought a lot about something similar to this, though -

Tynach said:
I imagine someone in that other thread had proposed something like female_(with_penis) (though nothing in that thread pops up when I search the forum for it; and the forum search seems to not want to do an exact text search to begin with..), but I can see why that'd be ambiguous and undesirable.

I feel as if something like female_(penis) and male_(vagina) aren't too horrifically long and cumbersome. I recognize that the difference between those two tags and the previous terms probably doesn't seem massive for many people, but many trans individuals would appreciate it greatly, I think. It still isn't perfect, though it would be a step up. Characters with genders (not sexes) outside of just 'man' and 'woman' get lost still, which sucks, but it's a whole 'nother can of worms that I don't think getting in arguments on here over would help. And hypothetical lore tags can kind of help there.

If the site could support something like being able to attach tag A to tag B, that would be amazing. ie, clipping a 'penis' tag or modifier or something to a parent 'female' tag - thus indicating that the female specified by that tag has a penis. Then, within search, if one searched "female~penis" (or with some other text character between the two, I don't know which all are already in use or if the tilde is used for something) they would get images that specifically have a female character who has been indicated to have a penis. Same with "female~vagina". The caveat being that if someone just searches "female" they'll get both, but something like the blacklist solves that, I'd think? However I 100% am not familiar with the inner works of the site and whether this would be feasible or not, so I'm just thinking aloud. It's probably been suggested at some point and just wouldn't work, but something like that would allow us to preserve the 'female' tag without having to rework it - people can just add the modifiers to new and old images as they please.

I do think lore tags would be good here - they don't erase the use of words people may take issue with, but it would make it infinitely easier for people who want to find (or avoid, I suppose) art of trans characters to get what they're looking for. I know I'd love that immensely, I'd be very excited if those got implemented!

IMO, I think this change is rather pointless and so far, this thread has only served to be a soapbox for those who complain about the gender tags, the same ones you try to appease with this change in the first place.

Everyone is going to use dickgirl and cuntboy when they search and tag either way because its more conveniant.

This can't possibly be a change meant for e926 because in order to use those tags, you'd have to see a cock or a pussy in the image for the tag to be applicable in the first place. Since e926 is sfw, you won't be seeing the vulgar dickgirl and cuntboy tags in the much tamer environment.

It all goes back to the same question.
You're worried about vulgarity on a porn site? Really?

Untamed said:
You're worried about vulgarity on a porn site? Really?

Because this isn't a pornsite.

Untamed said:
for the tag to be applicable in the first place. Since e926 is sfw, you won't be seeing the vulgar dickgirl and cuntboy tags in the much tamer environment.

gynomorph rated:s

Untamed said:
IMO, I think this change is rather pointless and so far, this thread has only served to be a soapbox for those who complain about the gender tags, the same ones you try to appease with this change in the first place.

Everyone is going to use dickgirl and cuntboy when they search and tag either way because its more conveniant.

This can't possibly be a change meant for e926 because in order to use those tags, you'd have to see a cock or a pussy in the image for the tag to be applicable in the first place. Since e926 is sfw, you won't be seeing the vulgar dickgirl and cuntboy tags in the much tamer environment.

It all goes back to the same question.
You're worried about vulgarity on a porn site? Really?

Imagine making a big post about how "dickgirl was not used on images that are rated safe" without actually bothering to check first.

No, the reason is exactly what I wrote in the OP, and no, we don't want to appease anyone, we just want to have less vulgar terms for people's characters. If brings some artists or character owners back then neat. But that's neither a requirement nor an expectation.

Personally I'm not trans so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I do appreciate trying to change the terms to be less vulgar and hopefully more inclusive. It won't hurt and really, since the old terms are still aliased won't change much for people who don't want to stop using them. Thanks for trying to address the issue even if the whole system may have flaws!

We're making things too complex by changing things to these new words.

What if I identify my character/myself as a dickgirl?

This isn't a sarcastic question by the way I'm being genuine, who are you (whoever) to say I'm not?

CV16 said:
What if I identify my character/myself as a dickgirl?

This isn't a sarcastic question by the way I'm being genuine, who are you (whoever) to say I'm not?

That's totally fine, but e621 operates on TWYS, so whatever it is you or your character identify as isn't something visible in the image and thus can't be tagged, in the exact same way as a character identifying as male or female is not sufficient to get the male or female tags.

No one is saying what you are or what you aren't via tags.

Clawdragons said:
That's totally fine, but e621 operates on TWYS, so whatever it is you or your character identify as isn't something visible in the image and thus can't be tagged, in the exact same way as a character identifying as male or female is not sufficient to get the male or female tags.

No one is saying what you are or what you aren't via tags.

Isn't that more egregious than dickgirls/cuntboys? The notion that something looks female or male? not that I disagree of course but that seems like the next step

"Less vulgar"?! lol coming from a hentai/porn site?! One that allows vore and scat I might add! Just... WHAT?! rofl

These tags serve an actual purpose, not just for finding/blacklisting. As the most descriptive, and thus legitimate terms to use, especially in TWYS. This is all literally feels over reals! Redirects or not, all this is going to do is cause continual confusion and problem.

In all my time on the net (~15+ years) dickgirl and cuntboy have been the most widely used and understood of such terms. To the near exclusion of all others. We shouldn't be buying into arguments claiming otherwise or irrelevance, based on small niche corner cases and groups who do so in essentially isolation. And in a more general sense, this is playing a very dangerous game and opening a door of toxicity that best be left shut. (case in point: see the second page of this very topic.. it only took two fucking pages! *rollseyes*) As I said in my post a few days ago.. Anyone who feels so... strongly about this as to throw a tantrum and leave, is probably best gone anyway. The site doesn't need that kind of toxic drama.

Also, what about actual dickgirl and cuntboy characters?! Not trans, nor gender bending, nor herm or transformation in the normal or classic sense.. But literal females with dicks and males with cunts?! (arguably the original meaning in the hentai world) Through magic, science or whatever! There is such a thing and they have nothing at all to do with herms or trans etc. To say nothing of the those who choose to call their trans/herm characters such. This basically strips a whole genre of its name. By letting a small subset of an already exceedingly tiny group, co-opt the terms completely and ban their use.

As for the replacements... Gynomorph and andromorph sound like bad fanfiction, also so very tumblrella. Seriously how is that supposed to work, let alone describe anything!? You can't just start using new words and names for things just because.. especially when the old names are 100% more descriptive and useful at relaying their meaning! These are possibly the WORST names that they could be changed to.. SMH

If it has to change just because.. What's wrong with "penisgirl" and "vaginaboy"? Not vulgar, nor do they have a perceived history working against them. Plus they are literally just as descriptive as the old terms.

FurryMcFuzzball said:
It finally happened, we caved to the changed a tag that wasn't inherently offensive because the right people complained.

Lot of tag changes lately. Has there been a change in management? These tags have worked perfectly for years,

Fixed that first line for you. As we've seen before in these topics and other attempts to start a nontroversy over this.. Only a very tiny few ever gave a shit at all.

This is indeed caving, in the most literal way imaginable. I mean they've pretty much admitted that it has nothing at all to do with "vulgarity" and instead is all about REEEEEEing from select groups.

But either way.. agreed with the rest of your post!

Glaice said:
We're making things too complex by changing things to these new words.

Quoted for utter truth!

NotMeNotYou said:
As for this change, being nice to people isn't caving in. The terms have been vulgar,

You think so?

Because I remember having a conversation with my trans FtM friend who finds literally no offense to the term cuntboy.

Theres also the fact that you can't exactly say from looking at a character that they're trans/intersex. A herm from the /actual/ use of the term is someone who exhibits traits from both genders from birth.

Its one thing to be nice to people, it's another to enable this sort of mindset.

Now I wonder for how long there will be comments appearing under gynomorph/andromorph tagged posts talking and/or complaining about those tags.

In this thread:

"Thanks I really appreciate this!"
"No one appreciates this!"

"I'm so glad that the terms are gone, I really hated them!"
"No one had a problem with the old terms!"

"I really love the new words!"
"No one likes the new words!"

"I'm really glad, I hate it when people use the term cuntboy to hurtfully describe me"
"No one uses cuntboy as an insult!!!"

"Humans do not share a hive mind"
"NO ONE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF FOREVER HAS EVER....."

NEO-Symphony said:
You think so?

Because I remember having a conversation with my trans FtM friend who finds literally no offense to the term cuntboy.

Theres also the fact that you can't exactly say from looking at a character that they're trans/intersex. A herm from the /actual/ use of the term is someone who exhibits traits from both genders from birth.

Its one thing to be nice to people, it's another to enable this sort of mindset.

I've stated at least 4 times that the new tags change literally nothing in terms of transgender tagging on our page. Transgender characters that were tagged as either male, female, dickgirl/gynomorph, cuntboy/andromorph will continue to be tagged as such. TWYS very much says we assume that the character is "born" as intersex unless there is visible evidence to the contrary, like cosmetic surgery scars.
All of this means I still fail to see how this enables anything in the trans community. The only trans tag we have is, and will continue to be, visibly_trans, which has pretty heavy restrictions on its use. If an FTM character looks like a regular male they will still be tagged as such, they don't suddenly qualify for gynomorph.

Also, the herm parts is from gynandromorph, not the split up versions.

Drkfce0 said:
"Less vulgar"?! lol coming from a hentai/porn site?! One that allows vore and scat I might add! Just... WHAT?! rofl

We are not a porn archive, we are a furry art archive. We host porn because that's what furry artist draw. We host more porn than safe posts because that's what furry artists predominantly draw. Get all furry artists to stop drawing porn for the next 10 years and the ratio of explicit posts to safe ones will plummet.

Drkfce0 said:
In all my time on the net (~15+ years) dickgirl and cuntboy have been the most widely used and understood of such terms. To the near exclusion of all others. We shouldn't be buying into arguments claiming otherwise or irrelevance, based on small niche corner cases and groups who do so in essentially isolation. And in a more general sense, this is playing a very dangerous game and opening a door of toxicity that best be left shut. (case in point: see the second page of this very topic.. it only took two fucking pages! *rollseyes*) As I said in my post a few days ago.. Anyone who feels so... strongly about this as to throw a tantrum and leave, is probably best gone anyway. The site doesn't need that kind of toxic drama.

The people that threw the tantrum about the change not going far enough are not the target audience of this change, at all. If you think they are the reason why we changed those tags you've completed misunderstood our point.

Drkfce0 said:
As for the replacements... Gynomorph and andromorph sound like bad fanfiction, also so very tumblrella. Seriously how is that supposed to work, let alone describe anything!? You can't just start using new words and names for things just because.. especially when the old names are 100% more descriptive and useful at relaying their meaning! These are possibly the WORST names that they could be changed to.. SMH

This is why we picked the tag, biological males (have a functioning penis and produce sperm) with an otherwise female body, and vise versa.

hiekkapillu said:

This has been suggested about million times, and it doesnt work because vagina means ONLY the inner tube connecting vaginal opening to uterus (it's common misconception that it covers external parts as well, or sometimes even that it means only the external parts). If you take a look around the pussy tag, its pretty obvious that its not common at all to have vagina visible in images. Pussy tag covers both vagina and vulva, and there really isn't any "proper" term that would cover same parts.

Sure, but vagina is aliased to it so it's already wrong anyway.

Snergal said:
Sure, but vagina is aliased to it so it's already wrong anyway.

The alias is correct. Any images where vagina is visible also belongs under pussy tag.

feeling meh about it, but if i can still search Cuntboy and get the same results cool. Though honestly not sure how Cuntboy could be offending, since my fursona is one and never really found to be a rude term. It's just a name for a male with female parts and not male parts.

But now thinking about this. .. doesn't it now combine both the Cuntboy and Dickgirl tags to be searched under the same term, kind of like how intersexed would?

If it does,kind of sucks because now you'd have to either use more tags in search to get one or the other, well if the old search terms didn't work.

NEO-Symphony said:
I remember having a conversation with my trans FtM friend who finds literally no offense to the term cuntboy.

Just because one person in a community isn't offended or hasn't been harassed with a specific term doesn't mean everyone else in that community shares the same feelings. Offensiveness is very relative.

Vallsamon said:
doesn't it now combine both the Cuntboy and Dickgirl tags to be searched under the same term, kind of like how intersexed would?

replaces Dickgirl and Andromorph replaces Cuntboy.
Try using the search with the new or old terms and it should give you the same results as it used to.

SnowWolf said:

In this thread:

"Thanks I really appreciate this!"
"No one appreciates this!"

"I'm so glad that the terms are gone, I really hated them!"
"No one had a problem with the old terms!"

"I really love the new words!"
"No one likes the new words!"

"I'm really glad, I hate it when people use the term cuntboy to hurtfully describe me"
"No one uses cuntboy as an insult!!!"

"Humans do not share a hive mind"
"NO ONE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF FOREVER HAS EVER....."

Pretty much this. Though at least there is somewhat productive conversation and explanations sprinkled throughout all the opinions and confusion.

Vallsamon said:
But now thinking about this. .. doesn't it now combine both the Cuntboy and Dickgirl tags to be searched under the same term, kind of like how intersexed would?

That's not what happened. The cuntboy tag is aliased to andromorph. The dickgirl tag is aliased to gynomorph. This means that you can use cuntboy and dickgirl while searching/blacklisting, or you can use andromorph and gynomorph for exactly the same effect. Nothing has been combined into a single term.

For instance, if you previously wanted to see a picture of, say, a solo character with a male body and female genitalia, you could search for cuntboy solo. Now you could either search for cuntboy solo or andromorph solo, either of which will yield identical results due to aliasing. There is no loss of functionality here.

Versperus said:
gynomorph rated:s

NotMeNotYou said:
Imagine making a big post about how "dickgirl was not used on images that are rated safe" without actually bothering to check first.

I just checked, actually, in order to help out someone who was confused about ratings in another context, and I noticed something.

https://e621.net/help/show/ratings

This says that non-detailed bulges should be listed as questionable. Neither the gynomorph tag nor the how to tag gender page contain any information that contradicts this. The bulge page does mention that discreet bulges may qualify as safe, but with this in mind it is entirely possible that someone could have checked but checked the wrong location and gotten the wrong information.

Perhaps the help page ought to include this information as well? It seems misleading otherwise.

This is kind of weird. I get the intention, I think, maybe, but like my first instinct when I saw the new tags was that they were too general, as in I thought gynomorph meant anything with a feminine form, including anything that would be currently tagged female, and likewise for andromorph. This brought me to an idea which has been expressed here already in some form a few times, that being that maybe physical sex should be specified with tags for something like gynomorph and andromorph which does not specifiy genitals and just use the existing tags for the genitalia you want to search for (such as gynomorph pussy or gynomorph penis). Of course, the problem with this, as has already been mentioned, is that then you can't have the slash tags and other combinations this way. Not to mention it would be unintuitive for users to search for, especially with the lack of a basic male and female tag.

Later, out of curiosity, I figured I'd actually look up the terms and see what other sources had to say about what they mean, because clearly it seems that they have been used in a different way than I had inferred, given that they've been chosen for these tags and that posts of the likes of Glopossum's have been made. I think they are a little off base on that front given that they do seem to imply more of an 'effeminate male'/'masculine female' than some sort of intersex or alternately sexed body.

I think the best solution would be changing the tags to something like female_(penis)/male_(pussy), but then that retains the vulgarity issue somewhat (as I have come to understand it, at least).

There really is no good solution, is there? Thanks language.

sekekkivvi said:
There really is no good solution, is there? Thanks language.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Well put. Currently there isn't any perfect solution, and any solution is going to make some people happy and others unhappy. Personally, I suspect that this set of tags will make more people happy than the previous set of tags, at least in the long-run (though as culture shifts, who knows, maybe an even better solution will present itself some years down the line).

One other thing to mention is that e621 is large enough at this point that it doesn't just need to follow the standard set by other sites, but can actually set some standards itself. I think that if you give a bit of time, these words will become more familiar to the furry community (and furry-adjacent communities) as a whole, and that will resolve the meaning-confusion aspect over time.

Clawdragons said:
I just checked, actually, in order to help out someone who was confused about ratings in another context, and I noticed something.

https://e621.net/help/show/ratings

This says that non-detailed bulges should be listed as questionable. Neither the gynomorph tag nor the how to tag gender page contain any information that contradicts this. The bulge page does mention that discreet bulges may qualify as safe, but with this in mind it is entirely possible that someone could have checked but checked the wrong location and gotten the wrong information.

Perhaps the help page ought to include this information as well? It seems misleading otherwise.

It says may include meaning that they're not restricted to questionable

Clawdragons said:
I just checked, actually, in order to help out someone who was confused about ratings in another context, and I noticed something.

https://e621.net/help/show/ratings

This says that non-detailed bulges should be listed as questionable. Neither the gynomorph tag nor the how to tag gender page contain any information that contradicts this. The bulge page does mention that discreet bulges may qualify as safe, but with this in mind it is entirely possible that someone could have checked but checked the wrong location and gotten the wrong information.

Perhaps the help page ought to include this information as well? It seems misleading otherwise.

If the bulge is subtle, it can be rated as safe.

I for one find this a bit of a surprise, and a unwelcome surprise at that.
I have friends who would be considered a "gynomorph" and that term would be completely and utterly incorrect, not to mention offensive... Considering she is actually a woman with boy bits. Not a boy with breasts. And gynomorph means to look like a woman but be a man.

You didn't really have to add esoteric terms to make it as you deem inoffensive (they weren't offensive to begin with as most of the planet uses one or the other). A simple change to a blanket term of intersex would have sufficed. If you wanted separate terms you could have simply done something like intersex(female) or intersex(male).
Honestly it kinda smells like e621 is trying to become the hug box it claimed it never would be... Or is trying to be politicly correct, in a way non political way if you get my meaning.
This is annoying, and confusing even after reading your news blip at the top of the site. Before that I was wondering what the hell a gynomorph was. Sounds like a STD or an epidemic of Acid blooded aliens.

Esme_Belles said:

I for one find this a bit of a surprise, and a unwelcome surprise at that.
I have friends who would be considered a "gynomorph" and that term would be completely and utterly incorrect, not to mention offensive... Considering she is actually a woman with boy bits. Not a boy with breasts. And gynomorph means to look like a woman but be a man.

You didn't really have to add esoteric terms to make it as you deem inoffensive (they weren't offensive to begin with as most of the planet uses one or the other). A simple change to a blanket term of intersex would have sufficed. If you wanted separate terms you could have simply done something like intersex(female) or intersex(male).
Honestly it kinda smells like e621 is trying to become the hug box it claimed it never would be... Or is trying to be politicly correct, in a way non political way if you get my meaning.
This is annoying, and confusing even after reading your news blip at the top of the site. Before that I was wondering what the hell a gynomorph was. Sounds like a STD or an epidemic of Acid blooded aliens.

Ninosi said:
I feel like the new terms are distancing the tags away from gender for intersex characters altogether. We're only tagging the body type + genitals anyway and the new tags pretty much emphasize that.

No need to have the intersex tags be gendered when there's usually no way to tell how a character feels just by looking at their body.

As for tags supporting the genderqueer community, visibly trans is still a thing.

Ninosi said:
Really, as I've said, we're not tagging their gender. We're tagging their body type + genitals. So more scientific terms actually help with this purpose.

The only reason male and female are still used is because most people know what body type and genitals to expect when they see the terms.

hiekkapillu said:
If the bulge is subtle, it can be rated as safe.

I think you must have misread my post.

Clawdragons said:
The bulge page does mention that discreet bulges may qualify as safe

I know that subtle bulges can still qualify as safe. My point is that perhaps the help page for tag ratings should include that information, since it mentions bulges in both the explicit and questionable categories, and yet omits the information about safe bulges.

I've got a question, since I'm still a bit fuzzy on how aliasing works. Until I have the new terms memorized, can I type in the old terms when tagging a new upload or will that cause problems?