Kalaka said:
The only reasonable response is to say "Sorry, we messed up, reverting this ill thought out and unpopular change."

Other responses are not reasonable, because they are specifically made to show that they won't be reasoned with.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

CCoyote said:
Thank you for demonstrating my point.

lol

JeffreyDahmer said:
How long has the staff been receiving complaints about these tags?
How many complaints has the staff received about the tags?

We've been receiving complaints for the previous tags (dickgirl/cuntboy) for years. It was not unusual to get takedowns from artists/character owners due to their characters or artwork getting tagged with dickgirl or cuntboy since they viewed the tags as slurs.

This is evident since after the change, some artists have decided to lessen or completely remove their DNP status.

Out of all the complaints, how many of them were made by actual users?(people that actively use the site?
Out of all the complaints, how many of them were made by people that just signed up and made a account to file a complaint?(Sock accounts, discord raid accounts)

It's hard to come up with an exact number, but it was enough complaints where we had to discuss about it and make a decision.

Have bypassed the mods and started complaining to the site owner?
If so, how long has it been going on for?
If so, how many complaints have they received and do they seem credible?
Have people started complaining to Bad Dragon about e621's trans-phobia?

Was decision made solely by the staff?
Was decision made solely by the owner?

The site owner doesn't really get involved with the site unless it's urgent (like legal matters or anything related to that), which is beyond rare. The site admins (me and the others) are the ones solely managing the site. Think of it like a restaurant franchise. The manager(s) is responsible to keep up the place while the actual owner of the entire company is indirectly overseeing. For the Bad Dragon question, I can't confirm info or speak on their behalf because I am not a Bad Dragon employee and I have no idea about their findings. I am a volunteer administrator for e621 only. So I can only confirm stuff about e621.

The decision was only made by e621 site staff. The idea for a change was in the air for a while until I recently pushed the subject and got the ball rolling. We've presented different ideas and names and we've ultimately came to an agreement with the terms we are using now.

JeffreyDahmer said:
You guys(??? Gers? Xers?… whatever) can claim you’re not a porn site all you want but it’s not going to change how people view this place or what they use it for.

>The parent company of this site(Bad Dragon) sells sex toys fashion after animal genitalia.
>There are ads for furry dating sites and sex toys fashion after animal genitalia, hosted on this site
>Majority of the “artwork” uploaded to this site is pornographic in nature
>Majority of this site’s user base is here for porn

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and host pornographic artwork depicting cartoon ducks having sex, it’s going viewed and called porn site.

I already hate notion that english language requires gender pronounces when you are simply addressing someone, so please, never go beyond that and full tumblr with made up words. This was actually one reason why this change took so long, because no matter what the tags were to be changed into, there would always be that group who thinks we are going full on "xe" route with addressing the characters instead of he/she.

Yes, all of those things are true. However at the same time, inkbunny isn't website for cubs, yet, many see it as website for cubs, because majority of the users and content there is usually cub. It is a furry website with tons of cub, it's still not website for cubs. It's still website for furries in general and if more furries simply got there and started using it, suddenly there wouldn't be as much cub stuff in contrast to everything else.

That's the distinguishion here. If we were pornsite, we would evaluate posts for their pornographic value, not artistic. As it is right now, we do delete even extremely liked posts if their artistic value is null for us, were it colored base, skyrim mod screencap or photos of fursuits being undressed. We would also most likely discourage or disallow safe posts, rather than encourage them with ways like having e926 sister website. Main reason for pornographic ads is because they are literally paying the bills and we do still require users to be of age when they use the website regardless of the content we host.

Yes, we are going to be called pornsite and we do host a lot of porn and many visit this website to watch porn, but we do and aim to do a lot of things that pornsites do not do or will not do and if more people come in and do not-pornographic furry artwork stuff we welcome them.

TheHuskyK9 said:
snip

Thank you very much.

TheHuskyK9 said:
This is evident since after the change, some artists have decided to lessen or completely remove their DNP status.

Do you have any names to back that statement up? The avoid posting page hasn't been edited since 6/19/2019.

Mairo said:
I already hate notion that english language requires gender pronounces when you are simply addressing someone, so please, never go beyond that and full tumblr with made up words. This was actually one reason why this change took so long, because no matter what the tags were to be changed into, there would always be that group who thinks we are going full on "xe" route with addressing the characters instead of he/she.

Yes, all of those things are true. However at the same time, inkbunny isn't website for cubs, yet, many see it as website for cubs, because majority of the users and content there is usually cub. It is a furry website with tons of cub, it's still not website for cubs. It's still website for furries in general and if more furries simply got there and started using it, suddenly there wouldn't be as much cub stuff in contrast to everything else.

That's the distinguishion here. If we were pornsite, we would evaluate posts for their pornographic value, not artistic. As it is right now, we do delete even extremely liked posts if their artistic value is null for us, were it colored base, skyrim mod screencap or photos of fursuits being undressed. We would also most likely discourage or disallow safe posts, rather than encourage them with ways like having e926 sister website. Main reason for pornographic ads is because they are literally paying the bills and we do still require users to be of age when they use the website regardless of the content we host.

Yes, we are going to be called pornsite and we do host a lot of porn and many visit this website to watch porn, but we do and aim to do a lot of things that pornsites do not do or will not do and if more people come in and do not-pornographic furry artwork stuff we welcome them.

I messed up I should of gave some indication that the post was not to be taken seriously. I've read though most of the post in the thread and I found it funny how people keep calling this place a porn site and the mods correcting them. I was just poking fun at the situation, I really wasn't trying to be a dick.

>Stop calling us a porn site god damn it!!!
It is pretty funny.

Blind_Guardian said:
Do you have any names to back that statement up? The avoid posting page hasn't been edited since 6/19/2019.

We had a few in this thread that said they are going into the process of removing their DNP status and since the news is still relatively new, I can only expect more to do the same.

TheHuskyK9 said:
We had a few in this thread that said they are going into the process of removing their DNP status and since the news is still relatively new, I can only expect more to do the same.

So you don't have any names and nobody has followed through. As I recall only lustylamb mentioned changing their DNP - any other artist is speculation. Don't make it sound as if this has done anything if it hasn't.

Blind_Guardian said:
So you don't have any names and nobody has followed through. As I recall only lustylamb mentioned changing their DNP - any other artist is speculation. Don't make it sound as if this has done anything if it hasn't.

I'm respecting the artists' privacy by not pointing them out by name. So it's not just speculation, it's actually happening. So yes, this has done something. A bit surprising since I'd that you'd pick up on that.

TheHuskyK9 said:
I'm respecting the artists' privacy by not pointing them out by name. So it's not just speculation, it's actually happening. So yes, this has done something. A bit surprising since I'd that you'd pick up on that.

Any chance of getting to see some analytics on it? Not trying to shit stir I just really like data. If anything the armchair assessment of E621's web analytics shows this is a win for you guys. Numbers are up across the board.

TheHuskyK9 said:
I'm respecting the artists' privacy by not pointing them out by name. So it's not just speculation, it's actually happening. So yes, this has done something. A bit surprising since I'd that you'd pick up on that.

I hope you are aware how unconvincing your statement might sound, because it's basically a "Trust me" supported by air.

You have a point or statement to confirm, but you are not showing the proof of it, and it just so happens this mysteriously omitted evidence supports your point and disproves the other. These kind of weasel words are super easy to catch, and from what I've seen on my time online, getting caught always gets something to the effect of "Well, I guess you don't trust me or what we have to say, so instead of fulfilling the request for evidence, I will simply not do the thing that establishes trust in the first place and dismiss further claims due to bad faith.". Which is. The opposite of helpful.

I know people are going to hate the Admins/Mods whatever way they split things, but communicating with your userbase in a manner that doesn't so much as meet them halfway isn't great. Eventually things come back to the old "Because I said so", which just patronizing and flaunting rank; more reason for users to see the leadership as a separate, out of touch faction.

If this thread was to be transparent about decisions, well, it pretty much landed face flat from the onset. People aren't going to believe for one second that vulgarity in text is genuine motivation for an alias and a thread. Honestly, it's kind of insulting how confidently this "reason" is being pushed for being as flimsy as it is.

If you're going to be transparent, then do so. Tell us why. It's as easy as "due to user complaints, we have changed this to X" or "having these tags makes us look bigoted" or "yes, it is a trans thing, but we don't want to get involved in those politics, so please just take this reason and move along. I'm so tired". Transparency is about saying what you're doing and why, not saying what you're doing and then giving ten different answers and stories about what this decision even IS from multiple staff members.

That's just opaque.

rekohunter said:
Any chance of getting to see some analytics on it? Not trying to shit stir I just really like data. If anything the armchair assessment of E621's web analytics shows this is a win for you guys. Numbers are up across the board.

What are these 'web analytics' you're looking at?

Also, I second the analytics.

sekekkivvi said:
What are these 'web analytics' you're looking at?

Also, I second the analytics.

Few sites you can check for it.
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/e621.net
https://www.similarweb.com/website/e621.net
https://www.worthofweb.com/website-value/e621.net/

CeladonSissy said:
I hope you are aware how unconvincing your statement might sound, because it's basically a "Trust me" supported by air.

You have a point or statement to confirm, but you are not showing the proof of it, and it just so happens this mysteriously omitted evidence supports your point and disproves the other.

If I tell you "we have many users," I am not obligated to show you email records, or IP address records or anything like that, no matter how much you attempt to convince me that 75% of users are russian spam bots.

If someone tells me that you and another user are the same person, I am not obligated to show them evidence about this one way or another. Our obligation is to look into the issue and solve the problem. If we tell them "they're not, but thanks, and they INSIST that they are, we do not have to show them our process of deciding this.

Please, could you maybe just assume some degree of good faith and assume that when we say "We have reasons we are keeping this private" that this means that we have reasons we are keeping this private, and not that we are lying between our teeth to make ourselves look good.

Because if you assume that everything we're saying is a lie to look good, there is no proof I can give you. It's like photographic evidence of fucking ghosts or whatever. Whatever I show you, and whatever I say, you can find a way to say that I'm trying to deceive you -- I'm lying, I photoshopped it, it's iPhone magic, there's a dude in a costume there, I double exposed my film, whatever. Whatever it is, it can be faked. and you can disbelieve me. and maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't. but if you've decided I'm lying, there's nothing I can give you to prove you wrong. everything is a lie.. and if the only solution you can come to is that everything I'm telling you is a falsehood, well why would you want to be around me?

There's no way we can prove that we're keeping things private for a reason without explaining who we're keeping things private for, WHY we're keeping things private and WHAT we're keeping private.... then it's nto very private anymore, is it?

I know people are going to hate the Admins/Mods whatever way they split things, but communicating with your userbase in a manner that doesn't so much as meet them halfway isn't great. Eventually things come back to the old "Because I said so", which just patronizing and flaunting rank; more reason for users to see the leadership as a separate, out of touch faction.

But we have. we've explained things a thousand times over, just no one really wants to believe us when we tell them the answer. People have decided that we're lying about this, and the only statement they'll accept as true is something that reaffirms what they've already said.

This is literally a no win scenario. Everything we say are lies or excuses. Ultimately, all we can do is say "Sorry, but this is how things are going to be right now."

If this thread was to be transparent about decisions, well, it pretty much landed face flat from the onset.

As it was stated from the outset, it was not. It was started because it was goign to take several hours to do the aliases and implications, and stuff would be broken in the interim. WE already had discussions about this.

People aren't going to believe for one second that vulgarity in text is genuine motivation for an alias and a thread.

Except the many people who have said, literally, that they found it vulgar and are glad it was changed.

Honestly, it's kind of insulting how confidently this "reason" is being pushed for being as flimsy as it is.

So what do you want us to say? that the SJW army has infected us with a left leaning zombie virus?? That we're all a bunch of politically correct pansiies? that a fancy rich trans person gave us a lot of money to make this change?? That we were bought by tumblr??? that we bought tumblr??? that is is all part of some secret plan to legitimize the words 'dick' and 'cunt' by removing them from the common parlance??

This is a decision that had literally YEARS of debate behind it. Y E A R S.

There is a PRIMARY REASON. There are many secondary and tertiary reasons. there are many reasons why we shouldn't have. there are reasons we did it now. There are reasons we should have waited longer. there are reasons we should have done it years ago. The staff is a collection of over a dozen people, with many different opinions. Do we really have to encapsulate literally hundreds of thousands of words explaining the exact fabric of the cloth surrounding our decision making process? Must we collect every time that two staff memebers have thought about these thigns? Do you need to know about my social position in life?

Everything that leads to a single moment in time is tremendous.

When we finally decided to do this, we decided that vulgarity was the primary reason. It was one that reoccurred many times in our discussions. it was one we decided we all agreed with. we have many opinions. There are many of us. the fact that one of us thinks that 'dickgirl' sounds like a pornographic super hero is not a primary reason, even if it did influence one person's opinion of the situation by some unmeasurable degree.

If you're going to be transparent, then do so. Tell us why. It's as easy as "due to user complaints, we have changed this to X" or "having these tags makes us look bigoted" or "yes, it is a trans thing, but we don't want to get involved in those politics, so please just take this reason and move along. I'm so tired". Transparency is about saying what you're doing and why, not saying what you're doing and then giving ten different answers and stories about what this decision even IS from multiple staff members.

That's just opaque.

We are tired of this thread, so please take this reason and move along. we are so tired. I am so tired. Can we please be done here?

Just dropping by to voice my support. Thank you for finally making the switch, it's appreciated. There'll never be perfect terminology for these things, but this is miles better than tagging our images with slurs.

-Edit:Keep editing because in my sleep addled haze a certain section of my commemnt kept looking bad and not at all like what I meant to say.-

(Trans here since apparently it is relevant)

I have nothing against the new terms, or thinking they are confusing or anything petty like that, but I am still not sure about the change, @vaelophis_nyx and @weirdoslam kinda proving why.(And making some of us look like crazies)

But I would rather have more artist here then listen to people like them complaining. Sides I've seen how you the site staff act to know you won't give into the greedy power hungry people that would yell in your face and demand you do what they want.

So guess for now the change is a welcome one.

I think the majority of this thread can be described like this.

randomguy85 said:
I think the majority of this thread can be described like this.

People don't like changes being forced upon them for no reason they see as valid.
That generally leads to complaints.

Kalaka said:
People don't like changes being forced upon them for no reason they see as valid.
That generally leads to complaints.

You don't think the reasons are valid, so all the people who do should just shut up?

SnowWolf said:
We are tired of this thread, so please take this reason and move along. we are so tired. I am so tired. Can we please be done here?

Soooooo tired of it. Please, please, please just lock it. -.-

CCoyote said:
You don't think the reasons are valid, so all the people who do should just shut up?

Someone else sharing their opinion does not automatically mean they are trying to deplatform you.

That said: I agree that this whole event doesn't really make any sense from where I'm sitting. Why make moral judgements about word choice when the same staff team clearly do not make moral judgements about the cub, disembowelment, or feral tags? Which is good - I don't think this is the place for moral judgements and I'd like to think that is not what staff are doing.

I think the problem these people are having stems from what I perceive as the staff assigning to themselves a task beyond simply managing a porn site. Whether that task is motivated by moral outrage is irrelevant, there is simply no reason to change it since it's already worked up until this point. Though, there's also no real reason to change it back since it still works just fine.

I guess what I'm really saying is, I don't see why go through the effort either way.

EDIT:

CCoyote said:
Soooooo tired of it. Please, please, please just lock it. -.-

I'd like to remind you that literally your post above this one says this:

CCoyote said:
You don't think the reasons are valid, so all the people who do should just shut up?

It seems like that's what you're trying to do right now.

darkhaven3 said:
Someone else sharing their opinion does not automatically mean they are trying to deplatform you.

If they were just sharing their opinion and genuinely wanted a good-faith discussion about the topic, that would be one thing. But when a user says their opinion is the only valid opinion, and the only acceptable response is to agree with them, there is no longer any point in continuing the debate.

Why make moral judgements about word choice ...?

Because users have been begging them to for years, and because artists are withdrawing their art from the site over it. If you can't accept moral reasons, then try understanding the ones that impact their business model.

I guess what I'm really saying is, I don't see why go through the effort either way.

Because in the end, the effort helps their platform and changes nothing of substance for those who continue to demand the original c-boy and d-girl tags.

CCoyote said:
If they were just sharing their opinion and genuinely wanted a good-faith discussion about the topic, that would be one thing. But when a user says their opinion is the only valid opinion, and the only acceptable response is to agree with them, there is no longer any point in continuing the debate.

If he holds a moral conviction about a given subject, then of course he would say such a thing. Why is it a surprise to you to discover through debate that someone holds a strong belief about a given subject?

Keep in mind you are both scoped within an argument about tag changes on a porn site and he is not the one making moral judgements over word choice.

CCoyote said:
Because users have been begging them to for years, and because artists are withdrawing their art from the site over it. If you can't accept moral reasons, then try understanding the ones that impact their business model.

Again, that sounds more like artists making moral judgements about word choice and manufacturing a problem. If they want to keep their art off the site, then fine -- personally, I don't think I want artists around that judge me in any way as it regards pornography. I think most people would agree with this sentiment, framed in this way (unless your kink is kinkshaming -- at which point I'm happy to judge the fuck out of you).

And besides, I'm sure there are users who have been begging for removal of gore/cub/feral/name-your-fetish from this site for probably even longer. Why should we satisfy the people upset about the word 'dickgirl', and not those people?

CCoyote said:
Because in the end, the effort helps their platform and changes nothing of any real substance for those who continue to demand their c-boy and d-girl tags.

I have yet to see any way in which this "helps the "platform"" of e621. Besides, I would think it easier to alias "gynomorph" to "dickgirl" than the other way around - would that not be less work for the server and basically satisfy any issue that could possibly arise from typing the word "dickgirl", or do I misunderstand?

darkhaven3 said:

I have yet to see any way in which this "helps the "platform"" of e621. Besides, I would think it easier to alias "gynomorph" to "dickgirl" than the other way around - would that not be less work for the server and basically satisfy any issue that could possibly arise from typing the word "dickgirl", or do I misunderstand?

it helps the platform by not using slurs and thus allowing more people to particpate in the site and not hate it for using slurs as tags *click click*

NotMeNotYou said:
to be a bit nicer to a certain group of people.

The people we want to be nicer to are not the people screeching on either side of the arguments, neither are they SJW, nor are they the trans character owners.

You want to be nice to staff members that don’t like it.

I deduced that much already but I’ll give you the pretty much same response I gave husky’s post, thanks for confirming my suppositions.

Of course, if you don't like any of our answers I could make one up.

That would be fantastic,it could be any worse then the answers that were given.

SnowWolf said:
If I tell you "we have many users," I am not obligated to show you email records, or IP address records or anything like that, no matter how much you attempt to convince me that 75% of users are russian spam bots.

Russian Spam Bots?

People are familiar with online/political activist and these people all follow the same MO. If there is a person/business doing something you find objectionable, harass them until they cave in.

Just because there was a decision made to change the tags a while ago, doesn’t mean people will stop harassing you guys, until you actually change them. There have been a lot of artist complaining about this and filing for DNP status. I know their autistic fanboys are rounding support to make accounts to spam e621 with BS complaints.

I thought the harassment was getting so bad that they decided to bypass you guys and complaining to the site owner and BD, it’s their MO FFS

That’s I was asking husky if they can tell how many complaints are from actual users and how many are from harassers.

I know the tags are vulgar, one of my biggest complaints about this site is how vulgar it is…

The staff has to remember, some of the users here(me included) are crazy conspiracy theorist that are to stupid to believe obviously true statements. You guys might want to try throwing us a bone by making some shit up.

UgandaKnucklesYT said:
it helps the platform by not using slurs and thus allowing more people to particpate in the site and not hate it for using slurs as tags *click click*

Slurs do not prohibit anyone from using the site, and I don't recall who, if anyone, was elected to determine what words are slurs.

darkhaven3 said:

I have yet to see any way in which this "helps the "platform"" of e621.

It ends the all the harassment the site has been receiving. A little bit of transparency goes a long way. If the staff was upfront about this people would be a lot more understanding about why it took place. It would be nice to have tags that don't suck, but it's easy to understand why they just pushed it through.

CCoyote said:
Soooooo tired of it. Please, please, please just lock it. -.-

If you don't like hearing people voice their complaints, you don't have to participate in the thread.

The mods need to stop bending their knee to everyone that is offended over nothing.

This is part of the reason people get so upset with these changes. Every time there's conversation in these threads someone gets offended over nothing, they cry to the mods then the whole thing gets shut down.

That would just add fuel to the fire at this point.

JeffreyDahmer said:
If you don't like hearing people voice their complaints, you don't have to participate in the thread.

Civilly voicing complaints in good faith is one thing. Continuing to grouse after the complaints have already been heard and addressed is something else.

CCoyote said:
Civilly voicing complaints in good faith is one thing. Bitching is something else.
Bitching is something else.
Bitching is something else.

CCoyote said:
Soooooo tired of it. Please, please, please just lock it. -.-

Hi pot, meet kettle.

JeffreyDahmer said:
Hi pot, meet kettle.

I was willing to temper my response and did so before you decided to quote the first version. Again, good faith matters.

So, be you. You're not going to change my opinion that way or (if you haven't figured it out, yet) admin's.

CCoyote said:
Civilly voicing complaints in good faith is one thing. Continuing to grouse after the complaints have already been heard and addressed is something else.

You are assuming exhibiting moral outrage over words on a furry porn site is "in good faith" to begin with.

Holding your own art hostage because of a choice of words is not "in good faith".

Acting like a moral puritan over your own art even when you get your way is not "in good faith".

JeffreyDahmer said:
Russian Spam Bots?

That was, like most every other example I gave, intended to be mildly playful and mostly fake-seeming. If it seems like a ridiculous idea, that's because it was intended to be.

the point is, we are not obligated to show you our work so you can decide if you agree or disagree with our conclusions. This isn't a math problem where x has a definable answer, y'know?

People are familiar with online/political activist and these people all follow the same MO. If there is a person/business doing something you find objectionable, harass them until they cave in.

Just because there was a decision made to change the tags a while ago, doesn’t mean people will stop harassing you guys, until you actually change them. There have been a lot of artist complaining about this and filing for DNP status. I know their autistic fanboys are rounding support to make accounts to spam e621 with BS complaints.

Please don't be rude to autistic people. A large percentage of people are autistic in various degrees and while I have no idea what makes a conglomeration of fans harass someone they feel has wronged someone, I don't think autism is really a factor in it. I know for a long time, it was "in fashion" to harass people with Asperger's and whatnot, but these days, it's basically perpetuating stereotypes and applying them to people that it doesn't apply to, while giving people who are autistic and poorly behaved an excuse to keep being assholes, y'know?

If you, or anyone, would like, we can talk more about this elsewhere, as it's very off topic. <3 okay, back on topic...

I thought the harassment was getting so bad that they decided to bypass you guys and complaining to the site owner and BD, it’s their MO FFS

To the best of my knowledge, this has not happened. If it has, it has not filtered down the chain to me. BD, as has been stated, has very little to do with our day to day happenings.

That’s I was asking husky if they can tell how many complaints are from actual users and how many are from harassers.

if you look in the forums, you can find a good representation of the threads that have been started over the years. While the staff has their own quiet opinions on who is what, by and large, we are pretty good, I think, at picking out the legitimate individuals, from the people who are just hanging around waiting for someone to start a thread like that, to the people who don't really seem like real people. We have to do this every day in many aspects of this job, you know? There's plenty of arguments bouncing around on any given day, and many places where people get grouchy about one decision or another.

Honestly, to my perspective, the harassment received over and around these tags is actually lighter than the harassment we've received over several other topics. It's always fascinating when you finally ban someone for three days for being creepy (after 2+ warnings!) and their response is to make 30 alts all named something like "yourmotherfukedhitler"

I know the tags are vulgar, one of my biggest complaints about this site is how vulgar it is…

we're always willing to listen to people who are alerting us to issues. it's just easier to listen to calm words than raging fire raging about the same things we've heard a lot of raging about already.

The staff has to remember, some of the users here(me included) are crazy conspiracy theorist that are to stupid to believe obviously true statements. You guys might want to try throwing us a bone by making some shit up.

Okay, okay, okaaaay...

Oh shit, I think I hear someone coming! Remember, it's vitally important to your survival and that of earth: Do not, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, LET THEM

darkhaven3 said:
You are assuming exhibiting moral outrage over words on a furry porn site is "in good faith" to begin with.

Holding your own art hostage because of a choice of words is not "in good faith".

Acting like a moral puritan over your own art even when you get your way is not "in good faith".

Dude, those of you arguing against this are literally objecting (sometimes angrily) because someone is trying to do something nice for someone else. You're a third party in a non-malevolent transaction that doesn't involve or affect you. How is it even your problem?

JeffreyDahmer said:

That would be fantastic,it could be any worse then the answers that were given.

In 1822, a child was born into an already large family, the ninth sibling of this particular marriage, with three more children from a previous marriage. The child lived a fairly ordinary life up until the age of seven, when he contracted consumption (now known as tuberculosis). Sadly, he passed away shortly after, as did one of his sisters who contracted the disease from him.

This is where our story really begins, because tied in death as these two siblings were by their disease, their spirits could not move on and became entangled. Over the years these ghosts adopted each other's traits, sometimes as a result of cosmic forces beyond the ken of man, sometimes by force of will, seeking more interesting ways to pass eternity - or at least what small portion they might be around for before they finally became able to pass on to some other afterlife.

Eventually this mixing of essences formed (and forgive me the idiom) the merest ghost of a concept: that of a boy - perhaps a man now, for though in life he died young he had persisted in death nearly a century since - who had the genitalia of a woman, and a woman who had the genitalia of a man.

This ethereal conjugation was unexpressed in the world at the time, but not long after, in the 1930s, the first sex reassignment surgeries were conducted, unbeknownst to any a product of, or an expression of, these two long-dead siblings and their postmortem tribulations.

Since then their power has only grown, and as the next century has passed, they began to become malevolent. Vengeful spirits now, intent on destroying long-held concepts of sex and gender, each having begun to spread blame more widely to the other.

Which brings us to the modern day, where they have accrued so much spiritual energy as to be able to fully possess living beings. Filled with a second soul, our dear moderators were coerced - no, that cannot be the word, for that assumes they still had some agency left. They were controlled into making this decision, mere playthings, hardly more than puppets, for the angry whims of these dastardly long-dead specters.

It is merely a single step in their greater plan. As controversy mounts in all areas of life related to gender, as more and more concepts are questioned, as more and more words come into existence to allow the conceptualization of these mixings of nature, they will spin together faster and faster in an abominable maelstrom, until finally their speed is so great that it rips them apart, flings them away as the strings of blood and circumstance are severed, and finally they may each make their own way to the true afterlife they have lusted after for so long. What dire effect that final snapping of ties may have on the physical world, I cannot say, but I cannot help but fear.

CCoyote said:
Dude, those of you arguing against this are literally objecting (sometimes angrily) because someone is trying to do something nice for someone else. You're a third party in a non-malevolent transaction that doesn't involve or even have any effect on you. How is it even your problem?

I think the change of tags will ultimately reinforce more objectionable behavior in the future, some of which was already manifest in this thread by the display of puritanical demagoguery by at least one artist and certain people claiming they are being shut down by other users, while at the same time begging for this thread to be locked. It speaks of a toxic undercurrent in the community I would rather not be toxic.

Whether or not it applies to me directly is irrelevant. I am allowed to object to things I find objectionable, regardless of your definition of "objectionable".

darkhaven3 said:
I think the change of tags will ultimately reinforce more objectionable behavior in the future...

That's called a slippery slope argument, and it's a logical fallacy.

CCoyote said:
That's called a slippery slope argument, and it's a logical fallacy.

I notice you omitted the part where I cited examples specific to this thread. Is there a reason you are attempting to misrepresent my argument?

darkhaven3 said:
I notice you omitted the part where I cited examples specific to this thread. Is there a reason you are attempting to misrepresent my argument?

It wasn't a misrepresentation at all. You can give plenty of examples and still have a fallacious premise.

CCoyote said:
It wasn't a misrepresentation at all. You can give plenty of examples and still have a fallacious premise.

Clearly you are not speaking from a perspective with any basis in reality if you do not believe your behavior of complaining that other users are shouting you down while you simultaneously beg for this thread to be locked is toxic.

It seems obvious to me that what I'm saying is factually correct if I say that "this tag change will result in behavior I find objectionable", and then in this thread, people exhibit behavior that I have called objectionable as a direct result of the tag changes. I fail to see how this is a slippery slope fallacy when what I've said has already happened, and I'm not sure I want to know how you arrived at the conclusion that observing objective reality is a fallacious premise.

darkhaven3 said:
Clearly you are not speaking from a perspective with any basis in reality if you do not believe your behavior of complaining that other users are shouting you down while you simultaneously beg for this thread to be locked is toxic.

Now, that's what a misrepresentation looks like. Good example.

I fail to see how this is a slippery slope fallacy....

Well, do a little research, learn about logic and logical fallacies, and get back to me. Or don't. In the end, it doesn't really matter.

This is just going to go nowhere. At all. Fast.

JeffreyDahmer said:
People are familiar with online/political activist and these people all follow the same MO. If there is a person/business doing something you find objectionable, harass them until they cave in.

I thought the harassment was getting so bad that they decided to bypass you guys and complaining to the site owner and BD, it’s their MO FFS

The important thing you're missing here is that the complaints go either to Varka or me, and both of us love people screaming and making a scene. It's free entertainment given directly to us, and we have no corp above us telling us we can't tell them to go pound sand.

Personally I'm driven by spite, telling angry people no and getting 20 emails in the course of an hour in response is fucking hilarious.

You can rest assured, this change is not because of the screamers, whiners, guilt trippers, or any other sort of free entertainment provider. It was a conscious decision to be nicer to the moderate people that voiced their concerns in a polite and fair manner. Which is also why I very much insist that this isn't giving in to people, because those people that want us to give in are still screaming.

CCoyote said:
You don't think the reasons are valid, so all the people who do should just shut up?

CCoyote said:
Soooooo tired of it. Please, please, please just lock it. -.-

I am not misrepresenting you in any way. These are literally two posts directly adjacent to each other, both by you, each made within minutes of each other.

CCoyote said:
Well, do a little research, learn about logic and logical fallacies, and get back to me. Or don't. In the end, it doesn't really matter.

I don't think continuing to entertain you would result in meaningful discussion. At every turn you have failed to argue in good faith, flat-out ignored what I've been saying, and then have the audacity to talk down to me like you have any idea what my argument actually is.

But you're not being toxic and proving my point or anything, though.

CCoyote said:
You don't think the reasons are valid, so all the people who do should just shut up?

Many people find the concept of furry art to be vulgar, especially erotic furry art. I don't pay them much heed either and it would be hypocritical to do so. If we cared about what other people found vulgar there would be no furry art or site at all.

Also:

People keep saying that artists are removing their art because they don't like the tags.

The question is do we really need artists in the community who are going to be that disruptive?

One victory will only spur them on to make more demands so that we can have the honor of keeping their presence.
Either the demands will be acquiesced to time and time again until the site is unrecognisable, or if their demands aren't met you can bet there will be drama and attempts to get the site shut down one way or another.

Expect guro and cub to be gone within the next 2-3 years, so we can keep certain artists around. (Though, I'm sure those in favour of the changes also wouldn't mind seeing that part of the site gone anyway)

Well, do a little research, learn about logic and logical fallacies, and get back to me. Or don't. In the end, it doesn't really matter.

That the slippery slope is a fallacy is, in itself, a fallacy.
You're essentially denying cause-and-effect, or the ability for people to build on past actions.

The specific described slippery slope may not be correct, but small things leading into big things is basically how everything works.

SnowWolf said:
A much appreciated response

In good faith, we're just gonna set aside that first quote. I'd rather not argue about the paragraph its quoting and instead get into the meat of things.

I know running a site is tough. I know people will hate you and disbelieve everything you say no matter what. Few will thank you. Most will speak ill. As one who has such administrating jobs multiple times before, I know too well the realities. None of those communities still exist; they all have disbanded.

And the reason always came back to community concerns.

When the admin team is going one way (or nowhere), and the users are going somewhere completely different, things tend to break down in time. Could take a couple years, or a few weeks. it depends on how long the streak goes and the magnitude of the decisions.

So, as a former moderator and admin of now dead communities, I ask you to give us anything. Literally anything tangible. It's not a choice between 0 and infinity pieces of evidence. Anything is better than the nothing we have now.

The staff may be to the point of making elaborate jokes about conspiracy theories out of frustration, but the thing is that...those parodies have the same amount of proof as the official reason. And that amount is zero. The parodies made highlight the issue rather than debunk them, from where I'm standing; reality and fiction has the same amount of support.

One could argue semantics (and BOY people have), but the reason given does not make sense given the context of a porn site. It's a porn site. (Please, ignore the semantics for a second for the sake of this comment.)

Vulgarity is not an applicable reason on this site. When I can look at things that are outright illegal in various countries in a couple clicks, a couple words being no-no's is laughable in comparison. The site itself is vulgar, so vulgar tags fit snugly into the cub and non-con art.

You mention various secondary and primary reasons for the decision. They'd be nice to hear! Reducing it down to "vulgarity" is like saying a nuclear meltdown is due to "moisture". Both are true, but they paint such an incomplete picture that it seems like a cover-up or a cop-out more than anything.

And if this is a decision years in the making, surely there's a larger force that stopped it from being done ages ago. It doesn't have to be an ulterior motive, it just has to be both true and make sense without the need for extra context. Booru code sucks? Lack of computing power? Scaleability issues? Social pressure? Just plain forgetting? A statement and evidence is all that would satisfy my concerns, at least.

We're all pretty confused right now. Why is this happening and why now? Who decided on these tag aliases? Is the team aware of the political perception around the change before implementing it? And a lot of this thread is turning everyone else's words against themselves or against anecdotal evidence that was made from within the confusion itself.

Surely the staff is aware the scope of the issue; at least by now. Maybe one piece of evidence won't be accepted by the community. Maybe it will. But having a statement backed up by something objective would make things much, much easier on everyone.

I appreciate the time you took to respond, Snow, and the amount of passion you have for this site.You've been commenting the longest most consistently, and you keep going regardless of how fruitless it may seem. I apologize if I came off as catty in my previous post. That one's on me. Would you be so kind to entertain these thoughts for a moment without resorting to hyperbole? I'd be thankful if you did, if that's worth anything.

CeladonSissy said:
And if this is a decision years in the making, surely there's a larger force that stopped it from being done ages ago. It doesn't have to be an ulterior motive, it just has to be both true and make sense without the need for extra context. Booru code sucks? Lack of computing power? Scaleability issues? Social pressure? Just plain forgetting? A statement and evidence is all that would satisfy my concerns, at least.

It took so long because nobody could decide on good terms 3 years ago, then we simply had a site to run and the issue got put on the backburner. Whenever it came up again it was never pressing enough that we actually decided to sit down and talk it out internally again. There was also the fact that the last big thread was 37 pages long and by then basically nobody had any desire left to touch the subject with a 10 foot pole.

That thread started showing up in my nightmares, and that is sadly not an exaggeration.

CeladonSissy said:
We're all pretty confused right now. Why is this happening and why now? Who decided on these tag aliases? Is the team aware of the political perception around the change before implementing it? And a lot of this thread is turning everyone else's words against themselves or against anecdotal evidence that was made from within the confusion itself.

Why now? It came up again recently because of some users screaming at us about TWYS being literally the worst thing, as they usually do, and we had the realization that we'd been putting it off for 3 years now. Nobody on the team had any objections to using less vulgar terms, the popular vote was won by Gynomorph and Andromorph, I volunteered to implement the change, and here we are.

CeladonSissy said:
Vulgarity is not an applicable reason on this site. When I can look at things that are outright illegal in various countries in a couple clicks, a couple words being no-no's is laughable in comparison. The site itself is vulgar, so vulgar tags fit snugly into the cub and non-con art.

It actually is. People take their own characters, and how they're labeled, a lot more serious than how actions or fetishes are called. We also have always been trying to use more formal terms for things if they're applicable and not horribly confusing or impractical. It's the same reason why we use equine_penis and not the much more popular horsecock, why we use penis instead of dick or cock, breasts instead of tits, and so on.

The other important reason is that we want to foster a friendly environment for as many of our users as we can. This starts at using more formal / professional terms in our tagging; is why our ads are vetted manually, we don't serve pop-ups, pop-unders, allow no sound, and only display one banner per page; goes on to our community guidelines punishing trolling, abrasive behavior, harassment of all kinds, spam, insults, being outright creepy, etc.
Just because much of our content is pornographic, and thus vulgar by definition, does not mean that we shouldn't want to treat other people with respect. If we are excellent to our users, the chance is higher that our users are excellent to each other as well.
Changing those two tags is also simply in line with our other efforts to ensure that our page is just a bit more "professional" than other comparable pages.

I guess if you'd like a succinct metaphor a good one would be that we want to be a high-quality red light establishment that's known for more than just the tits of their staff, and not a seedy brothel where sitting down gives you 3 new STDs.
Sure we could be the seedy brothel, but we don't want to. We know we can do better, and thus we are trying to do better.

CCoyote said:
So, be you. You're not going to change my opinion that way or (if you haven't figured it out, yet) admin's.

I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, I didn’t like the reason that was given for the change. Husky’s response is more then I could of hoped for already. He’s not being defensive or argumentative, so I’m much more inclined to believe what he says is accurate and it's good enough for me.

SnowWolf said:
That was, like most every other example I gave, intended to be mildly playful and mostly fake-seeming. If it seems like a ridiculous idea, that's because it was intended to be.

I took it as a condescending remark, that was implying I think this is all a big spooky, coordinated effort to force political correctness on people. That’s why I bothered to repeat why I think you guys were targeted by your run of the mill harassment campaign(a lot of people in this thread have admitted to harassing you guys) which played a part in making the decision. Some people really don’t know how common of a occurrence this is, mainly because they don't view their actions as harassment.

the point is, we are not obligated to show you our work so you can decide if you agree or disagree with our conclusions.

You guys don’t have to tell anything anything(some people wouldn't even listen to what you have say) but a little transparency goes a long way and it could spare y’all from a huge headache next time.

Please don't be rude to autistic people.

What website is this forum on? I was really expecting a few “pot met kettle” replies.

[/quote]Honestly, to my perspective, the harassment received over and around these tags is actually lighter than the harassment we've received over several other topics. It's always fascinating when you finally ban someone for three days for being creepy (after 2+ warnings!) and their response is to make 30 alts all named something like "yourmotherfukedhitler"
[/quote]

I could only imagine the BS you guys are subjected to but when you take into account the fandumb this website is a part of, people would assume it's part and parcel of the position.

it's just easier to listen to calm words than raging fire raging about the same things we've heard a lot of raging about already.

Just a tad bit of transparency might help a bit.

Okay, okay, okaaaay...

*ahem* Have you already brushed your teeth and changed into your pajamas? :)

Alright, so, I really shouldn't tell you this, BUT.... this is actually all part of a greater plan. it's one piece of a puzzle, you know? If you look closely, you can see how we've been moving towards this for y e a r s... but we're not the only ones. If you know what to look for, you can see it. not jsut on furry websites, but through every level of society. Every. Level. Okay?

No, I can't really tell you what you should be looking for, but believe me, you'll know it when you see it. Any non-idiot would. So. Every level of society, and this is jsut the first step! I'm not really sure what the end goal is--they haven't told me that, but I think it has to do with the economy maybe? Everything comes down to money eventually.

But, One day, like, 3 years ago, I was loitering around the e621 office door, when Nimmy got a late afternoon visitor. we had been closed for the last few hours, and I don't think Nimmy knew I was still there? I was working on a tagging project and, y'know, I didn't want to stop yet. But I was taking a snickers break--not sponsored-- and that's when I saw Him step into Nimmy's office.

I don't know who he was, be was wearing, like, a black trenchcoat and sunglasses, even though the sun had gone down long before. I thought he looked pretty suspicious, so I snuck over... they were talking in low voices, but I could hear something about... changing the system. and about.. well, I can't remember most of the details, but it was really shady. this was all about this whole big thing! So Nimmy's really working with these.... people about this. I"m not sure who they are, but I think...

This might sound crazy, but I have PLENTY of evidence to back this up.... I think these might be aliens. Of course they exist, there's just a big government conspiracy to keep it covered up, but they don't like that. but they also know people will freak out if they just appear one day, so I think they're trying to, like, acclimate us to them first.

everything, all the lines are all leading up towards this thing! Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes, this isn't about vulgarity, it's about preparing the world for our new alien overlords.

Oh shit, I think I hear someone coming! Remember, it's vitally important to your survival and that of earth: Do not, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, LET THEM

Do not let them what? Nooooooooo!!!!!!!! You God damn shape shifting, commie space lizards have gone too far this time!!! This is the kind of response I was hoping for, it fits my world view just fine.

Clawdragons said:
Snip

10/10

NotMeNotYou said:
The important thing you're missing here is that the complaints go either to Varka or me, and both of us love people screaming and making a scene. It's free entertainment given directly to us, and we have no corp above us telling us we can't tell them to go pound sand.

That may be the case but people are still aware of volume of complaints that come in.

Personally I'm driven by spite,

My hatred of normies and the society that shunned me, is what drives me...

You can rest assured, this change is not because of the screamers, whiners, guilt trippers, or any other sort of free entertainment provider.

I know it's not the main reason i'm just was part of it.

because those people that want us to give in are still screaming.

They never stop screaming.

[/quote]

1/10 I am so offended by how vulgar that was..

This seems completely unnecessary and only serves to complicate things further. When you say dickgirl, it's very obvious to what it means. A girl with a dick. Same thing with cunt boy, a boy with a cunt. These new words are just absolutely silly and will just confuse people, as for being less vulgar like...

Really? Have you seen the many, many tags this site has? They aren't even that vulgar anyway, they're just accurate. These new words aren't even accurate, gynomorph means 'female shape'. Something with female characteristics. I'm sorry, but where in that does it say 'she has a dick'? I don't wanna bring race into things, but this is like calling a black person an 'african-american' when they didn't come from africa, their momma didn't come from africa, and their momma's momma didn't come from africa either, you have to go ALL the way back to get to the actual 'african' and in some cases there is none.

Now imagine you're new to the site, you see something with a dickgirl in it and are like 'Oh, I like that! What's the tag for that?' And you've never heard/used the term 'dickgirl' before OR Gynomorph. If the tags had dickgirl in it, it'd be considerably more recognizable as 'girl with a dick' and it's be easier to find. However if you use the new term, the person might not reasonably figure out that 'gynomorph' means girl with a dick.

For those new and KNOW what 'gynomorph' means, they wouldn't think that's what the tag is referring to because as stated in the definition, it makes no reference to the dick on the girl. What if an image has a gynomorph and a female? Who's the tag referring to? They both have 'female' features.

Either way I am very opposed to this change and would prefer it to be undone, thanks for reading.

How can describing something that doesn't exist be a slur?

Honestly the only one that might need to be changed is "cunt" because that word is used against women in a derogatory manner.

But the actual full word "cuntboy" isn't the same as just tagging something "cunt" so even then it's borderline.

Because it's a tag for a fantasy thing.

Belaza said:
How can describing something that doesn't exist be a slur?

Honestly the only one that might need to be changed is "cunt" because that word is used against women in a derogatory manner.

But the actual full word "cuntboy" isn't the same as just tagging something "cunt" so even then it's borderline.

Because it's a tag for a fantasy thing.

You do realize that these terms are actually used about real living trans people as well? Or are you trying to say that trans people do not exist?

JadePrime said:
This seems completely unnecessary and only serves to complicate things further. When you say dickgirl, it's very obvious to what it means. A girl with a dick. Same thing with cunt boy, a boy with a cunt. These new words are just absolutely silly and will just confuse people, as for being less vulgar like...

Really? Have you seen the many, many tags this site has? They aren't even that vulgar anyway, they're just accurate. These new words aren't even accurate, gynomorph means 'female shape'. Something with female characteristics. I'm sorry, but where in that does it say 'she has a dick'? I don't wanna bring race into things, but this is like calling a black person an 'african-american' when they didn't come from africa, their momma didn't come from africa, and their momma's momma didn't come from africa either, you have to go ALL the way back to get to the actual 'african' and in some cases there is none.

Now imagine you're new to the site, you see something with a dickgirl in it and are like 'Oh, I like that! What's the tag for that?' And you've never heard/used the term 'dickgirl' before OR Gynomorph. If the tags had dickgirl in it, it'd be considerably more recognizable as 'girl with a dick' and it's be easier to find. However if you use the new term, the person might not reasonably figure out that 'gynomorph' means girl with a dick.

For those new and KNOW what 'gynomorph' means, they wouldn't think that's what the tag is referring to because as stated in the definition, it makes no reference to the dick on the girl. What if an image has a gynomorph and a female? Who's the tag referring to? They both have 'female' features.

Either way I am very opposed to this change and would prefer it to be undone, thanks for reading.

Why do I get a feeling that you have not read anything on this whole thread besides the first post?

I'm not going to look through 15 pages worth of comments to make sure what I said hasn't already been said.

hiekkapillu said:
You do realize that these terms are actually used about real living trans people as well? Or are you trying to say that trans people do not exist?

Trans people? Try regular people and normal people first hun, it's a general insult, not anything to do with trans people.

hiekkapillu said:
You do realize that these terms are actually used about real living trans people as well? Or are you trying to say that trans people do not exist?

No I'm saying the tags have nothing to do with trans people.

It's purely a TWYS archival tool, it's not about people.

Belaza said:
No I'm saying the tags have nothing to do with trans people.

It's purely a TWYS archival tool, it's not about people.

I am aware, but there is no reason to use terms that are insulting. Not to mention that we are categorizing people's own characters here. There has been significant amount of people who have got themselves on dnp list because they didn't want their trans characters to be referred with these words (I know because I lurk in the takedown reports regularly).

JadePrime said:
Trans people? Try regular people and normal people first hun, it's a general insult, not anything to do with trans people.

What the fuck you are talking about?

hiekkapillu said:
I am aware, but there is no reason to use terms that are insulting. Not to mention that we are categorizing people's own characters here. There has been significant amount of people who have got themselves on dnp list because they didn't want their trans characters to be referred with these words (I know because I lurk in the takedown reports regularly).

What the fuck you are talking about?

Sorry thought you were referring to cunt, not gynomorph/andromorph.

As for 'using terms that are insulting' any term can be insulting if USED as an insult. No word is exclusively an insult as all 'insults' have technical definition. Take bastard for an example, sure it's often used as an insult but it means 'born of an unmarried couple'. Point is any word could be considered 'insulting'.

Please lets not talk about trans people though.

JadePrime said:
Sorry thought you were referring to cunt, not gynomorph/andromorph.

As for 'using terms that are insulting' any term can be insulting if USED as an insult. No word is exclusively an insult as all 'insults' have technical definition. Take bastard for an example, sure it's often used as an insult but it means 'born of an unmarried couple'. Point is any word could be considered 'insulting'.

Please lets not talk about trans people though.

I was talking about dickgirl and cuntboy, not gynomorph and andromorph. Dickgirl and cuntboy are both vulgar slang terms that also are frequently used as insult against trans people. Also this is exactly why you should have read the thread, because you essentially just butted in without knowing even fraction of the situation.

hiekkapillu said:
I am aware, but there is no reason to use terms that are insulting. Not to mention that we are categorizing people's own characters here. There has been significant amount of people who have got themselves on dnp list because they didn't want their trans characters to be referred with these words (I know because I lurk in the takedown reports regularly).

It's tricky because I don't believe people should care about the way the system works, it isn't about assigning attributes to anyone or categorizing them.

Because you can tag things like "blue_eyes", "white_fur", etc. It dosn't make them "labels" in the way people want to think it does.

But honestly I'm fine with whatever they change even if I don't agree with the reasoning.

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, certainly makes for interesting discussion.

hiekkapillu said:
I was talking about dickgirl and cuntboy, not gynomorph and andromorph. Dickgirl and cuntboy are both vulgar slang terms that also are frequently used as insult against trans people. Also this is exactly why you should have read the thread, because you essentially just butted in without knowing even fraction of the situation.

Oh you can't be talking, you're the one who brought trans people into the discussion just for the sake of shutting someone down. Who cares what a group of people consider 'derogatory'?If you're offended by something that's YOUR problem, not everyone else's. Also despite being a 'frequently used vulgar slang term' I couldn't find much of anything of that sorts after googling it, so you're either exaggerating or making it up.

JadePrime said:
Oh you can't be talking, you're the one who brought trans people into the discussion just for the sake of shutting someone down. Who cares what a group of people consider 'derogatory'?If you're offended by something that's YOUR problem, not everyone else's. Also despite being a 'frequently used vulgar slang term' I couldn't find much of anything of that sorts after googling it, so you're either exaggerating or making it up.

I don't know how to explain this to you, but it's usually considered normal behavior to think a little how your language affects on other people, and avoid doing things that hurt others. Also I brought up trans people because it's relevant to this stuff. Also I am talking about these things from my personal experiences as a trans person. And again, you probably should read the thread so you would know what has been going on.

hiekkapillu said:
I don't know how to explain this to you, but it's usually considered normal behavior to think a little how your language affects on other people, and avoid doing things that hurt others. Also I brought up trans people because it's relevant to this stuff. Also I am talking about these things from my personal experiences as a trans person. And again, you probably should read the thread so you would know what has been going on.

I do, and the thing is you gotta accept that no matter what people are going to find somethings you say offensive, even if you take all the precautions not to be. I'm not saying you should be a senseless jerk and go out of your way to do it, but you shouldn't bow down and censor every little thing you say just because it hurts someones feelings. The moment you start backing down to them is when they start stepping on you.

I also don't really see how trans is relevant either, the site works off of a tag what you see system, if people don't want their trans characters correctly labeled then they should stay on the do not post list. I don't want to look strictly for females and still see males because someone determined that despite being a male they want to be called female.

And I'm sorry to hear that you're trans, I hope you can get the mental help you need to realize that you are the gender you were born with.

As long as I can still just type dickgirl to get the result, I don't really care. I don't really feel like typing 15 latin words in the search bar.

(Yes I know its an over exaggerated number, yes I know dickgirl can be construed as offensive to some, yes I am aware of why its being changed, yes the grass is greener on the other side, but its still just grass.)

JadePrime said:
And I'm sorry to hear that you're trans, I hope you can get the mental help you need to realize that you are the gender you were born with.

I see. Go suck on bag of tapeweorms or something. Im not going to continue this discussion with someone like you.

Regatto said:
As long as I can still just type dickgirl to get the result, I don't really care. I don't really feel like typing 15 latin words in the search bar.

(Yes I know its an over exaggerated number, yes I know dickgirl can be construed as offensive to some, yes I am aware of why its being changed, yes the grass is greener on the other side, but its still just grass.)

Old terms function like they did before because they are aliased.

@JadePrime you should leave personal opinion out of forum discussion. It removes the validity of your argument when you become bias, especially when you use it to berate someones mental stability.

hiekkapillu said:
I see. Go suck on bag of tapeweorms or something. Im not going to continue this discussion with someone like you.

Why not? Because I have a different view than you? I mean no malice towards you with that statement, in fact I really am wishing you the best, but I don't accept that going forward with transitioning is a good thing. You're free to try and change my mind, but if you wanna throw in the towel then you're only doing a disservice to yourself.

JadePrime said:
Why not? Because I have a different view than you? I mean no malice towards you with that statement, in fact I really am wishing you the best, but I don't accept that going forward with transitioning is a good thing. You're free to try and change my mind, but if you wanna throw in the towel then you're only doing a disservice to yourself.

I don't discuss with people who can't treat me with basic decency, which you are doing by implying that my gender identity is some sort of mental illness. Now stop talking to me.

Versperus said:
@JadePrime you should leave personal opinion out of forum discussion. It removes the validity of your argument when you become bias, especially when you use it to berate someones mental stability at the tail end what could of otherwise been a fair comment.

It wasn't personal opinion and it wasn't berating. People that identify as the gender they clearly aren't is not a body problem, it is a mental one. Some people try to compare trans with something like being gay, but they aren't remotely the same as one is quantifiable whilst the other isn't. Gay behavior has been recorded to long, long ago and it's a somewhat common occurrence with animals as well. Being trans however is rarely if ever recorded and has only really been relevant in modern times due to the overwhelming fad it has become to be trans due to the lgbt community rising up.

There's a lot of reasons to be trans nowadays, it gets you a lot of positive attention from people as well as gives you diversity points, which due to how businesses are trying to be as 'diverse' as possible makes it easier to get a job you probably didn't deserve.

JadePrime said:
It wasn't personal opinion and it wasn't berating. People that identify as the gender they clearly aren't is not a body problem, it is a mental one. Some people try to compare trans with something like being gay, but they aren't remotely the same as one is quantifiable whilst the other isn't. Gay behavior has been recorded to long, long ago and it's a somewhat common occurrence with animals as well. Being trans however is rarely if ever recorded and has only really been relevant in modern times due to the overwhelming fad it has become to be trans due to the lgbt community rising up.

There's a lot of reasons to be trans nowadays, it gets you a lot of positive attention from people as well as gives you diversity points, which due to how businesses are trying to be as 'diverse' as possible makes it easier to get a job you probably didn't deserve.

How ever you want to look at it, this isn't the place to talk about it. And you know it isn't, You could of said everything else in that chain of words leaving out the final bit which was only designed as a personal attack. But you went farther than that and insinuated that they aren't mentally stable. It wasn't appropriate and holds no place in civil discussion.

JadePrime said: Being trans however is rarely if ever recorded and has only really been relevant in modern times due to the overwhelming fad it has become to be trans due to the lgbt community rising up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus#Sexuality_and_gender_controversy

brudda transphobia is not da wae and being trans isnt new.

Not sure what your issue is with girls being born with dicks considering your favorites

UgandaKnucklesYT said:

brudda transphobia is not da wae and being trans isnt new.

transphobia is a linguistically incorrect word and it bothers the shit out of me, same with any urban dictionary words with phobia relating to hate over fear as they are all sound more a long the lines of someone being scared of the prefixed word not hating it.