hi this is my first forum post so sorry if im breaking decorum or w/e, but idk i just think it's become such a prolific thing in the furry porn community?
like the only place i see cub clearly being denounced BY artists/community members is twitter
i think there's a conversation to be had about the archiving of furry art and the kind of stuff we end up recording, but as someone who had to deal with being groomed at a pretty young age, a lot of which happened thru cub roleplay (something i took YEARS to stop rationalizing as being okay), i dont think it's socially responsible to continue to proliferate it.
of course the problem of neoteny fertilization is prolific beyond the furry community, but i think that maybe as a community we need to reflect on our role in curtailing that?
please lmk what yall think
idk just my thoughts please dont doxx me :v

(edit: forgot doxx has two x's in it >:b)

Fiction is fiction, why not remove every alienating topic, use your blacklist, we've done this song and dance before.

It became so prolific in the furry community because furry porn itself is a fetish. If you gather up a bunch of people with one fetish, chances are that quite a few of them would have more than one fetish. I don't think that cub is any more common in yiff than loli is in hentai.

Personally, I can't stand it. It's an immediate turn-off for me. But I would not advocate for its immediate removal from the site, no.

strikerman said:
Fiction is fiction, why not remove every alienating topic, use your blacklist, we've done this song and dance before.

i mean yeah obviously im using my blacklist
idk why it's so controversial to say that fiction has an influence on real life?
like no one on this website can deny that furry art hasnt at least partially influenced or personalities or tastes, or like in a broader sense can you really say that no piece of media has influenced you? the media we consume, how we consume it, why we're consuming it, all plays a role in how we see the world, and i think cub perpetuates the normalcy of some nefarious shit. now i dont think most ppl who consume cub are monsters or w/e, but the fact that so many people are into it kinda makes me wonder if the proliferation of cub porn creates a cycle that can occasionally lead to real harm. like im FAR from the only person who's been the victim of pedophilia in this community, and i think it's irresponsible of us to not at least look into why abuse is as prolific as it is.
like if another kid could be saved from having to endure that shit wouldnt it at least be kinda worth it? does cub porn really benefit us enough to offset its potential for harm?

bitwolfy said:
It became so prolific in the furry community because furry porn itself is a fetish. If you gather up a bunch of people with one fetish, chances are that quite a few of them would have more than one fetish. I don't think that cub is any more common in yiff than loli is in hentai.

Personally, I can't stand it. It's an immediate turn-off for me. But I would not advocate for its immediate removal from the site, no.

i agree, but i think loli/shota is just as much of a problem, and i dont know if wiping cub porn off the face of the earth would even be plausible, but i think that we need to change the culture around it and stop saying "it sucks but it's fine long as im not seeing it".
i think if we started having actual conversations about this shit instead of just blacklisting it and going on trying to pretend it doesnt exist, we might actually prevent some harm. and like dont get it twisted i dont have the answers here, but i think as a community we should start trying to think of some

I don't care for it myself, but I think people should be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy so long as it doesn't harm others. Part of the problem for getting rid of it is figuring out what does and does not count. I've seen people call out both slender girls and shortstacks with small chests as being cub/loli/CP.

The other problem, according to some research I've done on fetishes in general, is that porn acts as a good outlet for problematic desires. If you take away that outlet, it can lead to people having to find another outlet that's potentially more harmful; blocking access alone doesn't stop the desire. Better to let them have their porn, imo.

nromrore said:
I don't care for it myself, but I think people should be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy so long as it doesn't harm others. Part of the problem for getting rid of it is figuring out what does and does not count. I've seen people call out both slender girls and shortstacks with small chests as being cub/loli/CP.

The other problem, according to some research I've done on fetishes in general, is that porn acts as a good outlet for problematic desires. If you take away that outlet, it can lead to people having to find another outlet that's potentially more harmful; blocking access alone doesn't stop the desire. Better to let them have their porn, imo.

godd yeah i agree abt the problem with semantics. like internal bias plays a pretty big role in what ppl do and dont tag as cub, especially when someone just has a cutesy art style or draws a lot of shortstacks or w/e. hell ive seen animal crossing characters be tagged as cub and im p sure they're all canonically adults?

besides that idk basically the same thing i said to bitwolfy? i dont know if it's even POSSIBLE to delete all cub shit off the internet, but i think we gotta make it less normalized and start discussing how it could be harmful

when it comes to the paraphilia thing idk that's deffo outside my wheelhouse except that i really wish we had a healthcare system that was equipped to treat these people before they even get that far :[

geep69 said:
i dont know if it's even POSSIBLE to delete all cub shit off the internet, but i think we gotta make it less normalized and start discussing how it could be harmful

I don't think cub porn could be considered "normalized" among furries. Most big name furry sites ban it (FA, FN, Weasyl, SoFurry), and places like InkBunny are negatively talked about as a "cub haven" for nor banning it (because it's one of the few non-booru sites that allows it, and that's because it was founded by cub artists who were kicked off other sites). Most furries I see talk about cub porn see it as bad and something that should be banned (if not treated as real life CP).

Trust me, you have no end in support of people who see it as bad and harmful. If anything, discussion on the differences between fantasy and reality, thought crimes vs real crimes, on the idea of safe outlets, is what the world needs more of.

Years ago I thought it was gross, but then I fell down the rabbit hole quite literally of furry and other "degenerate" fetishes and opened up to it. You could argue that cub/loli/shota acts as a gateway to actual CP or pedophilia, but some argue the same about furry porn being a gateway for bestiality. I'm against bestiality or pedophilia with real animals or children, but porn of those are typically only banned to protect them from sexual abuse. A drawing isn't necessarily based on a real event and shouldn't be regulated the same way as photographs or actions against children and animals.

Unless you want to ban porn entirely which won't work to make sure people don't accidentally fall down the slippery slope and get aroused by the "wrong" things, people will find their way into weird fetishes.

As I can tell, cub isn't normalized since it is considerably shunned by most of the fandom. Your argument regarding the discussion of what we should archive and what we shouldn't, could be extended to real life archiving. Say, history itself is a field that archives human achievements and events of all types, but should we consider, in example, not archiving the Nazism plethora because it wasn't the best point of humanity due to its ideas and ideals?
Records and content archival have different objectives and approaches, themes and so on, but they should, in theory, be neutral and ethical because it's all history. Besides, it would be ignorance to archive only the good things, or even the bad stuff.

Another thing that I want to add, while in agreement with Watsit's argument, is that we should also discuss the possibilities of having neutral discussions and debates (how recursive) about the ideas, ideals and other elements regarding something, either it being porn, politicalities and whatever else, so that nobody jumps the gun and no tribalism is created.
That means nobody gets shunned and no content gets censored, and no more bigger issues are created under the carpet, because that's what happens, you can ban a certain type of idea/content, but it'll always exist in some manner, so instead of having ways to approach, respect and remedy it in an ethical and neutral way, it stays the same, happens under the hood and can become an even worse thing.

I don't consider it a fixable issue. People need to behave like responsible human beings and exhibit some self-control. So what if someone might have a thing for young / cub porn? That shouldn't make it okay for you to go and carry out your fetishes in real life. Nothing in these images is telling you to do this. Keep your fantasy life separated from your real life, and this applies to many things really, not just cub. If you play a violent video game, it is not okay to go out and kill people in real life. It is not the content that is at fault here, it is the person consuming the content that should get the blame.

I feel indifferent about cub, or underaged. Age is not really a relevant consideration to whether I can find enjoyment out of an image. I an not repulsed by cub, or any content really, and I don't think I ever will be. I'm not going to try to force myself to be offended by such content. If the content appeals to me, it appeals to me. If it doesn't, then I don't look at it. I wont go on some tirade, because someone else might enjoy this content I don't.

That is just how I feel.

Drawings dont feel anything thats pretty much end of discussion there.

This thread is gonna go to hell fast so Ill make my point.

Cub isnt CP. It doesnt harm real children. Any comparisons to it being the same as real genuine cp are morally unacceptable.

Nobody is being hurt. Blacklist it and move on. The anti community on twitter is a cesspit who migrated from tumblr bc they in found the only way they can get a tingle in their own pants is when they go on their annual moral guardian puritanical parade trying to recruit as many folks as possible (not to mention most of these adults in the anti community specifically target minors thereby intentionally exposing them to porn and underage porn under the GUISE of helping spread 'goodness' and safety but its just more grooming) pretending underage art is the same as real CP and making it impossible for people who are actual CSA victims to discuss how the content makes them feel.

Antis have done more grooming to minors than genuine fucking pedophiles have.

This entire discussion is moot and ridiculous so again Ill reiterate. Dont like it. Dont view it. Move on bc blacklist exists for a reason.

Whenever I see questions about cubs or any other "unpopular" content my minds always defaults to the "rape question". Why do people specifically single out cubs when rape is a more prevalent issue (and in fact does cover cub porn at the same time since children can't consent).
Surely this thought is banal in discussions like this one but since I've never participated in them I'm truly interested in how people singling out some types of offensive content will answer.

As far as I know, "fictionnal child pornography" (which cub would most likely fall under under most jurisdictions, even if it's not technically humans) is one of those things that's illegal in most countries. It's considered an exception to the definition of "child pornography" in the US, France, Germany, Belgium, Japan, Ireland, Brazil and Denmark, for instance (not that those exceptions make it anymore legal among some of those), but not in Canada, the UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Russia, Poland, Australia, Austria or New Zeland.

I'm sure a lot of people from those countries that do not make exeptions will shrug and go "Nobody ever got arrested for owning loli", but I still feel like it's worth highlighting. "Ignorance of the law excuses no one", as they say.

EDIT: A few examples for the curious:

• German Criminal Code, Section 184c: Dissemination, procurement and possession of youth pornography specifies that "the reproduction of a person" counts.
• Article 227-23 of the French Code pénal defines child pornography as "the image or representation of a minor where that image or representation is of pornographic nature".
• Canadian Criminal Code, §163.1: Definition of child pornography makes no distinction between mediums, as child pornography can be "a photographic, film, video or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means".
• Belgian Criminal Code, Article 383 says "pedopornographic material should be understood as [...] any material representing visually, in any given form, a minor with a sexually explicit conduct, real or simulated, or representing the genitals of a minor for primarily sexual purposes.", but I believe "a minor" in this case implies a real person.
• Directive 2011/93/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council has a similar definition to Belgium, but clarifies that "‘child’ means any person below the age of 18 years", and has an extra clause for "realistic images of a child engaged in sexually explicit conduct or realistic images of the sexual organs of a child, for primarily sexual purposes;" which makes it seem like the european guidelines give some leeway to member states in that regard.

geep69 said:
idk why it's so controversial to say that fiction has an influence on real life?

Violent video games cause violence. Totes magotes.

votp said:
Violent video games cause violence. Totes magotes.

Anyone that watches a movie about serial killers becomes a serial killer, or better a movie about Hitler.
Chances are, someone from your family is Hitler reincarnated.

fifteen said:
As far as I know, "fictionnal child pornography" (which cub would most likely fall under under most jurisdictions, even if it's not technically humans) is one of those things that's illegal in most countries. It's considered an exception to the definition of "child pornography" in the US, France, Germany, Belgium, Japan, Ireland, Brazil and Denmark, for instance (not that those exceptions make it anymore legal among some of those), but not in Canada, the UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Russia, Poland, Australia, Austria or New Zeland.

I'm sure a lot of people from those countries that do not make exeptions will shrug and go "Nobody ever got arrested for owning loli", but I still feel like it's worth highlighting. "Ignorance of the law excuses no one", as they say.

EDIT: A few examples for the curious:

• German Criminal Code, Section 184c: Dissemination, procurement and possession of youth pornography specifies that "the reproduction of a person" counts.
• Article 227-23 of the French Code pénal defines child pornography as "the image or representation of a minor where that image or representation is of pornographic nature".
• Canadian Criminal Code, §163.1: Definition of child pornography makes no distinction between mediums, as child pornography can be "a photographic, film, video or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means".
• Belgian Criminal Code, Article 383 says "pedopornographic material should be understood as [...] any material representing visually, in any given form, a minor with a sexually explicit conduct, real or simulated, or representing the genitals of a minor for primarily sexual purposes.", but I believe "a minor" in this case implies a real person.
• Directive 2011/93/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council has a similar definition to Belgium, but clarifies that "‘child’ means any person below the age of 18 years", and has an extra clause for "realistic images of a child engaged in sexually explicit conduct or realistic images of the sexual organs of a child, for primarily sexual purposes;" which makes it seem like the european guidelines give some leeway to member states in that regard.

This has always kinda confused me, because if you do have situation where 17yo sends nudes to someone of age, there's clear data of that the other person was 17yo and go by the laws accordingly.
However now we are on fictional area, so what do you go by? We have laws here that everyone who looks below 30yo the IDs will be checked, so can you just draw someone who looks like 12 but in lore is of age with lore being used like ID? If visuals count then do they assume higher or lower age? Does the character need to reflect person in real life to count? As stick figures are technically human representation in simplest form, how detailed the drawing needs to be and do the character need to be pure human?

I just genuinely hate these kind of laws, because it's clear that their purpose is to stop child pornography and child abuse, but they are targeting fictional media which is the exact opposite of child pornography and abuse.

It's always adorable when people have this opinion since then we can also assume everyone on this site wants to fuck their dog right?

camkitty said:
It's always adorable when people have this opinion since then we can also assume everyone on this site wants to fuck their dog right?

Chances are, there at least some people on this site who actually want to fuck a dog.
I'm just saying.

@Fifteen
Being unable to distinctivize and distinguish fiction from reality is considered in most countries to be a form of insanity.

Who cares.

bitwolfy said:
Chances are, there at least some people on this site who actually want to fuck a dog.
I'm just saying.

Yeah but those people were like that before furry art. Seeing feral art did not change that or "awaken" something

Some people take furry porn art too seriously. And it is one of the advantages of this porn as opposed to the real porn: the only limit is your imagination. Sadly, some people try to destroy it by telling others which art is acceptable and which doesn't.

aobird said:
Anyone that watches a movie about serial killers becomes a serial killer, or better a movie about Hitler.
Chances are, someone from your family is Hitler reincarnated.

Hitler ate sugar! Sugar is evil!

underage porn of furry characters has been used to groom kids by people who persistently drew that stuff, so to say it has never harmed children or has no connection to pedophillic tendencies is not very perceptive

also anyone who defends it, purveys it, or creates it is def going to come across as a bit creepy to a lot of folks, that's just how it is

i have never had any interest in it because not only is diddling kiddos gross, the idea of it is boring, people that young are not experienced at sex, and they have basically no personalities since they're still developing into actual peopl, and it's hard to feel attracted to something with no personality that can't make you smile, want to slap them, or cry, all the emotions connected to a meaningful relationship, unless you only desire to treat people like objects

tldr cub is gross and if it's banned nothing of value is lost

iceink said:
underage porn of furry characters has been used to groom kids by people who persistently drew that stuff, so to say it has never harmed children or has no connection to pedophillic tendencies is not very perceptive

also anyone who defends it, purveys it, or creates it is def going to come across as a bit creepy to a lot of folks, that's just how it is

i have never had any interest in it because not only is diddling kiddos gross, the idea of it is boring, people that young are not experienced at sex, and they have basically no personalities since they're still developing into actual peopl, and it's hard to feel attracted to something with no personality that can't make you smile, want to slap them, or cry, all the emotions connected to a meaningful relationship, unless you only desire to treat people like objects

tldr cub is gross and if it's banned nothing of value is lost

"cub is boring" is not the hot take I expected tbh

More importantly, do you have any more info/specifics about that first point?