The tag implication #35357 knotting -> (-sex) has been rejected. (Remove sex from knotting)

Reason: post #2190400 is the perfect example.

As stated by the wiki:
>"Masturbation, on the other hand, is not considered sex."

EDIT: The tag implication knotting -> (-sex) (forum #299340) has been rejected by @Rainbow_Dash.

I don't think that post is supposed to be tagged knotting. The wiki specifically states that knotting occurs between two characters, which implies that a solo character would not get tagged it. Is there a tag for a dildo "knotting" someone?

What about oral_knotting from autofellatio?

Currently oral_knotting implies knotting implies sex, but autofellatio is masturbation.

How about knotting in a penetrable_sex_toy/balloon_fetish/blowup_doll?
Are inanimate objects considered a 'second character'? Excluding animate_inanimate, of course.

Also to the OP, this is not the proper way of requesting de-implications - see BUR.

I agree with the premise (knotting does not equal sex), but like Wolfgang said, this request won't work.

The bulk update request #376 is active.

remove implication knotting (26124) -> sex (1021240)

Reason: What OP wanted, might also add other knotting implications/aliases later...

EDIT: The bulk update request #376 (forum #299360) has been approved by @Millcore.

There is no knot there, so there can't be knotting. That's just a dildo.

aobird said:
There is no knot there, so there can't be knotting. That's just a dildo.

I feel there should be some tag that covers taking the knot of a knotted dildo anyway, even if it is (k)not knotting.

For that matter, maybe there should be a general tag for a knot in an orifice, since there's also stuff like knot_fucking. I wouldn't be opposed to (but don't strongly support) redefining knotting for that personally, since people seem to tag it that way.

animperfectpatsy said:
I feel there should be some tag that covers taking the knot of a knotted dildo anyway, even if it is (k)not knotting.

Dildo_knotting.

aobird said:
There is no knot there, so there can't be knotting. That's just a dildo.

I disagree, knotting (or dildo_knotting) should be able to be applied for knotted_dildos, since some animations tend to resemble actual knotting.
post #2279805

thegreatwolfgang said:
I disagree, knotting (or dildo_knotting) should be able to be applied for knotted_dildos, since some animations tend to resemble actual knotting.
post #2279805

No, knotting requires a knot, not just something that looks like it.
When I search for knotting, I want to see knots, not dildos. Knotted dildo is just like any other other, used for penetration.
Knotting is a function, not a look. Don't care much about fake knotting tag.

aobird said:
Knotting is a function, not a look. Don't care much about fake knotting tag.

Most artists treat a knotted penis as if it was a knotted dildo. Fully formed and enlarged at the slightest arousal, which is then shoved in to the desired orifice. That's also not how knotting functions, but still gets tagged as knotting.

watsit said:
Most artists treat a knotted penis as if it was a knotted dildo. Fully formed and enlarged at the slightest arousal, which is then shoved in to the desired orifice. That's also not how knotting functions, but still gets tagged as knotting.

I don't think we are talking about "true" or "false" knottings at the moment, that's for another discussion (see topic #26737).
I just tag knotting regardless of whether it naturally forms inside the orifice or is forced in from the outside.

But I do want to point out there's a dildo_knotting tag, should we implicate it to knotting as well?

thegreatwolfgang said:
I don't think we are talking about "true" or "false" knottings at the moment, that's for another discussion (see topic #26737).
I just tag knotting regardless of whether it naturally forms inside the orifice or is forced in from the outside.

Right, I was just responding to the "knotting is a function" part. When it comes to art, I don't think there's much difference between character-on-character knotting, and knotting with a dildo. The behavior and function of the knot is largely the same.

(Knotted) Dildo should knot imply knotting or knot, It would break the tags, I don't want unrelated things in my search result. Please don't make me cry.

aobird said:
(Knotted) Dildo should knot imply knotting or knot, It would break the tags, I don't want unrelated things in my search result. Please don't make me cry.

You could search knotting -knotted_dildo -dildo_knotting or blacklist knotted_dildo and dildo_knotting

aobird said:
(Knotted) Dildo should knot imply knotting or knot, It would break the tags, I don't want unrelated things in my search result. Please don't make me cry.

If we are going to base off the wiki's definition that knot is solely used for canids/canine_penis and not something that resembles a knot, what is your position on tentacles & ovipositors with knots then?
post #2297333 post #2426122 post #1164017 post #1588894
post #2102706 post #1465805

I didn't know how to properly request a removal. Sorry. I'd like to know how to make a proper request for next time.
As to continue the discussion, part of the reason I requested this has to do with the wiki itself. Both vaginal knotting and anal_knotting state:

Any post which shows a character being knotted in the [orifice] by a penis or sex toy.

By the rules of these pages, knotting should be applied to dildos. I would be fine with this request being rejected if the pages get updated to reflect such, but then confusion would still be present to those who don't read the forum.

thegreatwolfgang said:
If we are going to base off the wiki's definition that knot is solely used for canids/canine_penis.

The wiki does not say anything about exclusivity on that page. It is simply being informative. As for the knotting page, typical refers to commonality.

Edit: This section on knot is confusing:

Some toys such as a dildo have a knot as well, so it's not always an implication of the tag penis, knotted_dildo should be used for them instead.

The first two fragments say dildos can have knots so the tag doesn't imply penis, yet the third states to not tag them as such. The logic makes no sense here. Because dildos can have knots, we don't make knot imply penis, but don't tag knotted dildos as knots anyway? The comma splice makes it look like the third part was simply tacked on, but I can't easily find out if the tagging "rules" were changed at the time of writing.

yamaneko said:
The wiki does not say anything about exclusivity on that page. It is simply being informative. As for the knotting page, typical refers to commonality.

The point I'm trying to make is that according to @AoBird's first comment, knot should only be tagged when they are on penises.
If that's the case, then you would want to be +1 for the knotting --> sex implication as knot & knotting would only be used on sex and not in masturbation (with a sex toy, like a knotted_dildo).
Note: The only reason why knotting is not implicated with knot is because knotting can happen without seeing the knot, e.g., ass_to_ass, *pop* sound effect, etc (see topic #19150).

Looking back at the knot wiki:

• Some toys such as a dildo have a knot as well, so it's not always an implication of the tag penis, knotted_dildo should be used for them instead.

This sentence confuses me as well, but based on my own interpetation, it implies that knot is not implicated with penis because it can also appear on dildos as well.
This means that knotted_dildo can and should be implicated to knot (see topic #24913), similar to how knotted_equine_penis, knotted_humanoid_penis, and knotted_feline_penis are already implicated.

gattonero2001 said:
You could search knotting -knotted_dildo -dildo_knotting or blacklist knotted_dildo and dildo_knotting

I don't see much point in making a tag less specific, just for... actually, not even sure why this'd be needed. Surely there's better ways to handle this. Most tags are separated into sex and masturbation, and the way knotting is currently set up follow that standard.

Keeping in mind of the previous arguments, I suggest that knot be used exclusively as an 'appearance-only' tag, to be used on both sex and masturbation, and that knotting be used as an 'action-only' tag, also to be used on both sex and masturbation.
I also propose to (1) bring back the knotted_penis tag to serve as an umbrella tag for all non dildo-type penises with knots and (2) create a knotted_canine_penis tag to address the concerns of having dildos in people's knot tag search.

So, in knotting, you should be able to find all sorts of knottings (i.e. penis knottings, dildo knottings, tentacle knottings, etc).
If you want to see knotting without any sorts of 'fake knots', just search for knotting knotted_canine_penis or knotting -dildo_knotting.

genjar said:
I don't see much point in making a tag less specific, just for... actually, not even sure why this'd be needed. Surely there's better ways to handle this. Most tags are separated into sex and masturbation, and the way knotting is currently set up follow that standard.

Before I start my counterpoint, I just want to let you know that I interpret your point as tags can only be either sex or masturbation. If that is incorrect then please try to clarify.

There has already been a precedent to alias a specific tag into a broader tag simply because people neglected to use it (sounding > urethral). While not relevant to this, it does show that this site does in fact make tags less specific, not that I agree with the decision. On top of that, it could be done under both conditions. Fingering is too. We have fingering_partner and fingering self to help separate that already. It would make perfect sense to implicate knot for both knotted_penis and knotted_dildo following a similar standard.
I agree with Wolfgang in how to restructure the tags, but if I may add something, I think penile_knotting would be a good tag to create to help distinguish itself from dildo_knotting. We already have penile_penetration after all.

aobird said:
I don't want unrelated things in my search result. Please don't make me cry.

I'm gonna be a little blunt here. You come off as entitled. Would you seriously throw a tantrum over something like this? I have to deal with feral ponies whenever I go searching on here because tens of thousands of MLP images are not properly tagged to work with my blacklist settings. I'm sure you could suck it up too.

Edit: You aren't wrong that tags would be broken, but with the proposed restructuring it should be fine. Don't we already have bots to fix that for us anyway?

I looked it over a little more. While I see you tried to be consistent, there was implication redundancy with tag hierarchy. No need to have a tag imply knot directly when another tag it implies does so. It's ultimately pointless, but I like the idea of making sure tags branch out like the way the wiki presents it. I decided to take some liberty and clean that up while adding my own proposed tag with proper implications. Hope it's good.

Edit: I looked at the wiki again and I found another glaring issue: is there anything that could justify a difference between barbed_canine_penis and knotted_feline_penis? All I can think of is the tips. Even then I see that the latter only has five tags. Some images in the former that could be tagged inversely, but do you think the smaller tag should be dropped?

yamaneko said:
I looked it over a little more. While I see you tried to be consistent, there was implication redundancy with tag hierarchy. No need to have a tag imply knot directly when another tag it implies does so. It's ultimately pointless, but I like the idea of making sure tags branch out like the way the wiki presents it. I decided to take some liberty and clean that up while adding my own proposed tag with proper implications. Hope it's good.

Proposed BUR Script

imply knotted_penis -> knot
imply knotted_dildo -> knot
imply knotted_canine_penis -> knotted_penis
imply knotted_canine_penis -> canine_penis
imply knotted_tapering_penis -> knotted_penis
imply knotted_tapering_penis -> tapering_penis
imply knotted_equine_penis -> knotted_penis
unimply knotted_equine_penis -> knot
imply knotted_humanoid_penis -> knotted_penis
unimply knotted_humanoid_penis -> knot
imply knotted_feline_penis -> knotted_penis
unimply knotted_feline_penis -> knot
imply knotted_canine_dildo -> knotted_dildo

imply dildo_knotting -> knotting
imply dildo_knotting -> knotted_dildo
imply dildo_knotting -> dildo_penetration
imply penile_knotting -> knotting
imply penile_knotting -> knotted_penis
imply penile_knotting -> penile_penetration

Aren't all canine penises knotted by default?

gattonero2001 said:
Aren't all canine penises knotted by default?

The knot doesn't actually grow until close to orgasm, even though much art tends to ignore that fact, so you can have a canine penis without a knot.

watsit said:
The knot doesn't actually grow until close to orgasm, even though much art tends to ignore that fact, so you can have a canine penis without a knot.

Yes. See penis_tip. You should still be able to tag canine_penis and penis_tip together without knot.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Keeping in mind of the previous arguments, I suggest that knot be used exclusively as an 'appearance-only' tag, to be used on both sex and masturbation, and that knotting be used as an 'action-only' tag, also to be used on both sex and masturbation.

I'm favor of the first usage (using knot by twys), but against the second.
The site has prized anatomical accuracy over artist opinions when tagging, and this case should be no different.

So I'm with AoBird on this one: whole point of knotting is that the penis gets locked in place until the knot deflates. That's why it's called knotting. If the penis or dildo can be pushed in regardless of the knot, it can also be pulled out -- and is therefore not knotting. Just knot_fucking (which, as the wiki correctly notes, is not knotting).

yamaneko said:
Before I start my counterpoint, I just want to let you know that I interpret your point as tags can only be either sex or masturbation.

Well, I can't speak for whether that was what Genjar meant or not, but it's absolutely correct. Masturbation means pleasuring one's own self with no other living creature involved. Sex means two or more people and/or creatures, interacting with each other sexually. So, the two terms are mutually exclusive. And all of this applies to both real life, and tagging terms.

genjar said:
I'm favor of the first usage (using knot by twys), but against the second.
The site has prized anatomical accuracy over artist opinions when tagging, and this case should be no different.

So I'm with AoBird on this one: whole point of knotting is that the penis gets locked in place until the knot deflates. That's why it's called knotting. If the penis or dildo can be pushed in regardless of the knot, it can also be pulled out -- and is therefore not knotting. Just knot_fucking (which, as the wiki correctly notes, is not knotting).

Knot_fucking is defined as "thrusting a knot into and out a character multiple times".
Looking at post #2279805 again, it is dildo_knotting but I wouldn't consider it as knot_fucking as the knot is pushed in only with a single thrust.
The same can be said for regular knotting with a penis. If the character pushes it in, finishes, and then is able to get it out right after, I would still consider that as knotting.

As it currently stands, the knotting wiki states that "this [knotting] usually results in the two characters being stuck together for an extended period of time", which means that a tie can happen but is not compulsory when tagging.
If you are looking for the actual stuck knotting or "tie", I'd suggest to start using the realistic_knotting tag as discussed on topic #26737.

yamaneko said:
I looked it over a little more. While I see you tried to be consistent, there was implication redundancy with tag hierarchy. No need to have a tag imply knot directly when another tag it implies does so. It's ultimately pointless, but I like the idea of making sure tags branch out like the way the wiki presents it. I decided to take some liberty and clean that up while adding my own proposed tag with proper implications. Hope it's good.

Proposed BUR Script

imply knotted_penis -> knot
imply knotted_dildo -> knot
imply knotted_canine_penis -> knotted_penis
imply knotted_canine_penis -> canine_penis
imply knotted_tapering_penis -> knotted_penis
imply knotted_tapering_penis -> tapering_penis
imply knotted_equine_penis -> knotted_penis
unimply knotted_equine_penis -> knot
imply knotted_humanoid_penis -> knotted_penis
unimply knotted_humanoid_penis -> knot
imply knotted_feline_penis -> knotted_penis
unimply knotted_feline_penis -> knot
imply knotted_canine_dildo -> knotted_dildo

imply dildo_knotting -> knotting
imply dildo_knotting -> knotted_dildo
imply dildo_knotting -> dildo_penetration
imply penile_knotting -> knotting
imply penile_knotting -> knotted_penis
imply penile_knotting -> penile_penetration

Thanks for clearing the redundancies, I initially did it because the knotted_*_penis tags also had knot implicated.
Also noting your *_penetration tags, I'd suggest putting that off for now as there's an argument going on with dildos being penetration or insertion.
Will be making a separate thread about that soon.

Edit: See topic #27854 for penetration/insertion discussion.

Edit: I looked at the wiki again and I found another glaring issue: is there anything that could justify a difference between barbed_canine_penis and knotted_feline_penis? All I can think of is the tips. Even then I see that the latter only has five tags. Some images in the former that could be tagged inversely, but do you think the smaller tag should be dropped?

They should not be interchangeable, base penis should either be canine_penis or feline_penis.
E.g., post #2470517 is barbed_canine_penis while post #1798607 is barbed_feline_penis.

genjar said:
whole point of knotting is that the penis gets locked in place until the knot deflates. That's why it's called knotting. If the penis or dildo can be pushed in regardless of the knot, it can also be pulled out -- and is therefore not knotting.

In which case, several posts would be ineligible for knotting (just a cursory glance at the first page of results). While it would be nice if artists and commissioners better understood how proper knotting works, that doesn't seem like a fight that's gonna be won any time soon. And there's things like oral_knotting, where the knot is held in the mouth, but the mouth is usually flexible enough to let it in or out at will.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Thanks for clearing the redundancies, I initially did it because the knotted_*_penis tags also had knot implicated.
Also noting your *_penetration tags, I'd suggest putting that off for now as there's an argument going on with dildos being penetration or insertion.
Will be making a separate thread about that soon.

Penile_penetration should stay for penile knotting. If insertion gets reinstated then it can be changed accordingly. I kinda doubt it'll work given that this site likes to minimize redundancy by removing tags people fail to use.

As for the hybrid types, you made a small error on the latter tag.

watsit said:
In which case, several posts would be ineligible for knotting (just a cursory glance at the first page of results). While it would be nice if artists and commissioners better understood how proper knotting works, that doesn't seem like a fight that's gonna be won any time soon. And there's things like oral_knotting, where the knot is held in the mouth, but the mouth is usually flexible enough to let it in or out at will.

Exactly. If you want to get really technical on this whole realism, humanoid vaginas don't work the same way as a canine's, rendering the bulb swelling useless contrary to what is frequently seen in fiction. Are we supposed remove vaginal_knotting on every post without a taco then? They aren't actually "locked in place" by their own definition.

Just a quick update, I'm going to go ahead and push for the revised BUR script on a separate thread - see topic #27933.
Dildo will be considered as dildo_penetration since not a lot of people are keen on discussing/bringing back insertion on the other thread.

In addition, I will be adding in imply realistic_knotting -> knotting as a compromise to @AoBird & @Genjar's concerns on the 'impurity' of the knotting tag.

The tag implication knotting -> (-sex) (forum #299340) has been rejected by @Rainbow_Dash.

The bulk update request #376 (forum #299360) has been approved by @Millcore.