The tag alias #53355 jean_(minecraft) -> jean? has been rejected.

Reason: Both refer to the same character, and jean_(minecraft) does not have a wiki page.

EDIT: The tag alias jean_(minecraft) -> jean? (forum #315087) has been rejected by @bitWolfy.

I know that the question mark is a joke, but weren't we trying to avoid the usage of special characters on tags?

Edit: Quotation marks -> question mark

Seems like someone went and changed all the instances of jean? to jean_(minecraft) manually earlier today.
https://e621.net/post_versions?search[tags_added]=jean_%28minecraft%29
Which is kind of a dick move.

Frankly, I don't like this tag, as it seems to have an almost 100% overlap with ender_dragon.
It's usually not possible to tell when the artist intends to make the specific ender dragon from the end of minecraft, or just a random unrelated ender dragon.

bitwolfy said:
Seems like someone went and changed all the instances of jean? to jean_(minecraft) manually earlier today.
https://e621.net/post_versions?search[tags_added]=jean_%28minecraft%29
Which is kind of a dick move.

That's why I started this petition. My main gripe was that the new tag doesn't have a wiki page while the old one did. That's now been fixed.

While it may have been a dick move to manually change jean? to jean_(minecraft) without a proper alias discussion, I would agree with not using jean?. It's basically a joke name born out of obtuseness, and the punctuation on the name serves no purpose but to be confusing to those not in on the joke, and trigger those with certain forms of OCD.

Beyond that, bitWolfy's other point is also relevant. There's no real way to identify "Jean" specifically from the "Ender Dragon" species. At best if an artist specifically says a particular drawing is of Jean, it can be tagged as them (character tags are more TWYK than TWYS), but I wager the vast majority of cases will not have a statement one way or another (or will be subject to so much assumptions and/or hear-say that it can't be verified despite being claimed it's them). Ensuring the character tag is used correctly will be a real pain.

bitwolfy said:
Frankly, I don't like this tag, as it seems to have an almost 100% overlap with ender_dragon.
It's usually not possible to tell when the artist intends to make the specific ender dragon from the end of minecraft, or just a random unrelated ender dragon.

You could say the same about tem and temmie_(undertale), yet we still have a separate species and character tag.

However, I’d not be opposed to aliasing the character to the species for both Jean? and Temmie. Nobody is going to have any reason to look specifically for Jean? as opposed to any other ender dragon (because there aren’t any), and same for Temmie—especially since there are several different tems named Temmie, and they all (besides the shopkeeper, whose name is also Temmie) look identical.

I still think jean? is a completely useless tag which usually ends up getting slapped on every Ender dragon post that exists, but it stills gets rejected every time so I've given up on it ever getting nuked.

But keeping on topic with the original topic, Ridley Dragmire moving all the posts manually is tagging abuse in my opinion - no consensus was formed to do that and without a proper alias the posts will now be showing to anybody who had jean? blacklisted, or not showing to anybody who had it in any search queries. I'd use a script to move all the posts back to jean? but I don't want to be guilty of doing the same thing.

faucet said:
I still think jean? is a completely useless tag which usually ends up getting slapped on every Ender dragon post that exists, but it stills gets rejected every time so I've given up on it ever getting nuked.

The issue with it is that Jean? is not identifiable in any way. It’s not a canonical character, it’s not anyone’s OC, the ender dragon in-game is never described to be a unique individual as opposed to a species. After you kill it, it’s replaced by another one. So, what is Jean?? It looks more like a case of an entire species being confused for a non-existent individual.

I’m not sure what discussions have been had regarding tem/temmie, but I think the current layout ought to be reconsidered. I think the tem shopkeeper (and maybe Bob…) is the only one who should have a unique character tag, since that one is visually distinct from the others (having gray hair and a striped shirt), but even regular tems are always tagged as temmie_(undertale). Of course, it’s because they’re all named Temmie (except for Bob), which was meant as a joke in-game but causes tagging confusion on our end. It would make more sense to tag none of them with that name instead, since the name is virtually synonymous with the species. What use is a character tag if it can be used to describe almost every member of a species? I suppose that’s a discussion for a different thread, though.

scaliespe said:
The issue with it is that Jean? is not identifiable in any way. It’s not a canonical character, it’s not anyone’s OC, the ender dragon in-game is never described to be a unique individual as opposed to a species. After you kill it, it’s replaced by another one. So, what is Jean?? It looks more like a case of an entire species being confused for a non-existent individual.

Someone asked what the name of the Ender dragon was and Notch responded with "Jean?", which is the same origin as Steve's name. As for species vs. individual, normally you'd never have more than a single Ender dragon at a time, and no one says you aren't reviving the Ender dragon instead of replacing them.

ksn5ynoh said:
Someone asked what the name of the Ender dragon was and Notch responded with "Jean?", which is the same origin as Steve's name. As for species vs. individual, normally you'd never have more than a single Ender dragon at a time, and no one says you aren't reviving the Ender dragon instead of replacing them.

There's still nothing in the majority of those images suggesting the shown dragon is any character. People are tagging it like it's a species, not a character, so it really should be aliased away.

ksn5ynoh said:
Someone asked what the name of the Ender dragon was and Notch responded with "Jean?", which is the same origin as Steve's name.

Even in the best case, Notch's response was clearly a question, along the lines of "I don't know, Jean perhaps?" or "Is Jean a good name?" So the name would be Jean, not Jean-Question_Mark (and since Jean is a generic name, jean_(minecraft) would be used to disambiguate it, just like steve_(minecraft) is).

But even still, there's mo way to confirm that a given drawing is of Jean instead of some other Ender Dragon, unless the artist specifically says so for the given piece. And in that case, as Jean has no visual distinction to separate them from other Ender Dragons, if people are going to tag every Ender Dragon as Jean even when there's no confirmation, there's no point to having the character tag.

ksn5ynoh said:
Someone asked what the name of the Ender dragon was and Notch responded with "Jean?", which is the same origin as Steve's name. As for species vs. individual, normally you'd never have more than a single Ender dragon at a time, and no one says you aren't reviving the Ender dragon instead of replacing them.

Yeah, I’m aware of the origin. Steve is a human with a particular look, however, so he kinda needs a name to distinguish him. Jean? has no specific appearance that any other ender dragon wouldn’t have.

Reviving or replacing; it’s not specified by the game either way. It just as easily could be a new dragon each time. But that’s not really important since, as I’ve said, we can’t distinguish Jean.

Well, Millcore just ran a shadow update while I was in the middle of emptying out the tags, reverting images back to jean? (Edit: That's fine, the tag should not have been manually updated like that in the first place, so Millcore was just undoing that). Slowed me down, but I'm still emptying images of the tag. Some images actually should keep it, but we'll see if the others can keep it off or if we actually need to alias it to ender_dragon.

furrin_gok said:
Some images actually should keep it

How can you tell which posts should keep the tag?

strikerman said:
How can you tell which posts should keep the tag?

I would assume by checking the source to see if the artist mentioned Jean? specifically, or if it’s just “an ender dragon” or “the ender dragon.”

strikerman said:
How can you tell which posts should keep the tag?

scaliespe said:
I would assume by checking the source to see if the artist mentioned Jean? specifically, or if it’s just “an ender dragon” or “the ender dragon.”

Pretty much. Sometimes, it's just a tag sitting there out of nowhere, so I figure the artist made the same mistake some users here make, but if they're specifically talking about it being Jean (or one image has a nametag collar), then the tag stays.

Alright, I've finished cleaning it out. Only twelve posts still have it, primarily the images by The Crab Mage, who tags them as Jean himself.

Actually, the reverse alias makes a bit of sense.

I'd rather not have two tags describing the same thing. Even if that "thing" is extremely ambiguous.
And as it has been pointed out, we should not be using the question mark in the tag, as we already don't do that for Steve.

The tag alias jean_(minecraft) -> jean? (forum #315087) has been rejected by @bitWolfy.

furrin_gok said:
Alright, I've finished cleaning it out. Only twelve posts still have it, primarily the images by The Crab Mage, who tags them as Jean himself.

It's been 6 months and it's back to 166 posts - can we nuke it yet?