cuffs_(disambiguation) got me exploring some of the wiki for bondage gear and I noticed a few things:

1. shackles are described on the wiki as usually large, circular metal cuffs and are apparently a parent tag for every other type of (bondage) cuff. (EDIT: only for ankle_cuff and tail_cuff the rest was typed into the wiki manually)
2. We have metal_cuffs and iron_cuffs, as well as leather_cuffs and handcuffs.
3. We also have ankle_cuff and wrist_cuff, as well as some other variants that describe limb-specific cuffs.
3b. ankle_cuff implicates shackles

This has a few issues.

1. shackles is useless for actually finding the usual dungeon-esque thick metal cuffs linked by a chain (google's definition), or even just thicc metal cuffs (e6 definition), because of the implication of [[ankle_cuffs] to it. It has 14k results and is a mess. Many of the results have no metal restraints in them at all, instead being leather_cuffs for example (very common in bdsm or bondage_gear).
2. metal_cuffs and iron_cuffs are redundant.
3. I just realized that the "see related" entries in the wiki are manually typed and are...questionable. But I don't want to edit them without knowing how things are organized or are desired to be organized.

How can we clean this up?

Here's my proposal to start us brainstorming. EDIT: We already have most of this, it's just a matter of getting the implications/hierarchy right and folding in some tags that are unnecessary (?)

1. Have a top level cuffs_(restraint) to avoid ambiguity with the other kinds of cuffs
2. Have materials: metal_cuffs, leather_cuffs will probably handle 99% of the cases; these imply cuffs_(restraint). Get rid of either iron_cuffs or metal_cuffs (metal_cuffs only has 16 pics)
3. Have limb types: wrist_cuff, ankle_cuff, tail_cuff. These should imply the top level cuffs_(restraint). @urielfrys pointed out that it is possible for only one limb to be cuffed so I went with singular here.
4. Have specialized types: handcuffs (implies metal_cuffs?), shackles (implies metal_cuffs).

Shackles itself is a bit of a weird case, because it usually means "dungeon-ey cuffs and chains" (google describes it as leg fetters linked by iron) but I think it has a more generalized meaning the way people use it on e6 as just thick metal cuffs. It might even be appropriate to just alias metal_cuffs and shackles, and then only alias handcuffs to cuffs_(restraint) to avoid conflating them with shackles.

I think shackles are the biggest sticking point actually; it depends on if you want to handle them as any broad metal cuff, or be specific and have them be metal cuffs linked by chains, or whatever variation. If we go broad then it's basically the same as metal_cuffs.

I'm not particularly married to any of this, but I do think something needs to be done to clean up this category. It is not helpful to have ankle_cuff imply shackles on a picture like post #2940074 which has ankle_cuff and visible leather cuffs (or at least not metal dungeon cuffs linked by a chain).

Anyway I'm tired so here's my thoughts, please discuss.

EDIT 3: https://e621.net/forum_topics/6371 is the original thread that set up shackles like it is now. I almost don't mind it being used as a parent tag for all cuff types, except it breaks with leather_cuffs. I've never seen shackles used to describe anything but metal cuffs, and in fact the wiki page says "They often consist of round, strong, metal cuffs to restrain a character from moving in certain spots."

EDIT: The bulk update request #1722 (forum #) has been approved by @bitWolfy.

EDIT: The bulk update request #1723 (forum #) has been approved by @bitWolfy.

The bulk update request #1720 is active.

create implication cuff_(restraint) (30611) -> restraints (63429)
create alias bondage_cuffs (0) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)
create implication metal_cuffs (10892) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)
create implication iron_cuffs (561) -> metal_cuffs (10892)
create alias steel_cuffs (0) -> iron_cuffs (561)
create implication gold_cuffs (45) -> metal_cuffs (10892)
create implication handcuffs (9358) -> metal_cuffs (10892)
create implication leather_cuff (0) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)
create implication tail_cuff (938) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)
create implication ankle_cuffs (4516) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)
create implication thigh_cuffs (271) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)
create alias wrist_cuff (0) -> wrist_cuffs (5553)
create alias wristcuffs (0) -> wrist_cuffs (5553)
create implication wrist_cuffs (5553) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)
create implication shackles (17778) -> cuff_(restraint) (30611)

Reason: shackles is being used as the base tag for all cuff types, but is described on the wiki as being round, usually metal restraints. many of the ankle_cuffs are not metal cuffs. leather_cuff is a common use for the ankle_cuffs tag.

By common definition, shackles are a specific type of ankle_cuffs linked by chains, not vice versa, but this is incompatible with our current tag scheme.

Eventually shackles should be reviewed and possibly adjusted as in the linked forum thread (handcuffs are another issue), but that is outside the scope of this particular request.

EDIT: also starting cleanup of cuff materials. we have leather_cuffs which are a specific type. iron_cuffs are a type of metal_cuffs

EDIT: The bulk update request #1720 (forum #322741) has been approved by @bitWolfy.

Having the different types of cuffs be based around a cuff tag instead makes sense to me and I could get behind this idea.

Shouldn't the material tag refer to the material of the cuff itself?

Leather handcuffs refers to the cuff being of a leather material. I think a metal cuff should specifically refer to a metallic cuff and not the chain.

thevileone said:
Having the different types of cuffs be based around a cuff tag instead makes sense to me and I could get behind this idea.

Shouldn't the material tag refer to the material of the cuff itself?

Leather handcuffs refers to the cuff being of a leather material. I think a metal cuff should specifically refer to a metallic cuff and not the chain.

thevileone said:
Having the different types of cuffs be based around a cuff tag instead makes sense to me and I could get behind this idea.

Shouldn't the material tag refer to the material of the cuff itself?

Leather handcuffs refers to the cuff being of a leather material. I think a metal cuff should specifically refer to a metallic cuff and not the chain.

right, sorry--I didn't type it very clearly last night. If there's a chain or rope involved of significant enough length (more than a link or two, I'd say, but that's up for debate) my instinct is to say it should be tagged separately.

We could use that to determine what is and isn't a pair of handcuffs for example. If the cuffs are directly attached to each other, attached with a hinge, or with a very short chain, they're handcuffs, perhaps.

New proposal for the wiki, plz critique:

Directly attached, hinge attached, or very short chain linking two metal cuffs: handcuffs
Chain attached to other metal cuffs: shackles (this mostly fits the google definition and I think the e6 one too, just without the specifics that it is ankles only; shackled wrists are a thing)
Leather cuffs with a chain, rope, or anything else linking them: just leather_cuffs

My gut says that shackles implies chain but I'm not sold on the idea yet because the phrase has always been more about the metal cuff than the chain to me. Put another way, I'm proposing that shackles only counts if there is a chain. Too restrictive? (Pun intended.)

A more relaxed variant would be to just say that a shackle is any metal_cuff.

Updated proposal based on Discord chatter:

Materials:
metal_cuffs
leather_cuffs

Limbs:
ankle_cuff
wrist_cuff
tail_cuff
etc

Types:
shackles are defined as restraints that are wide circular bands of a solid material. They may need to involve a chain to be called this (see caveats)
bondage_cuffs are flexible restraints of the type that are usually used in bdsm play. (They're wide straps that are fastened around wrists, not solid ones.) They are almost always leather_cuffs.
magical_bindings should be used for magic shackles.
gold_shackle should remain separate as it relates to djinni archetypes (thanks Aerotan!)

handcuffs are metal cuffs that are fastened directly to each other or with a very short chain. handcuffs no longer implies shackles. Sure, some people will probably tag it manually and there will be some overlap, but it will be much less than all 6k handcuff pics :)

Ideally these should all be under a cuffs_(restraint) or similar, to separate them from cuffs_(clothing) and cuff_links

Implication tree would be something like:

[[gold_cuffs]], [[iron_cuffs]] -> [[metal_cuffs]]......-> [[cuffs_(restraint)]]
            [[leather_cuffs]] -> [[bondage_cuffs]..../
                [[gold_shackles]] ->  [shackles]].../  -> [[metal_cuffs]]
	[[magical_cuffs]] =  [[magical_shackles]]../   -> [[magical_restraint]]
		                    [[handcuffs]]./    -> [[metal_cuffs]]

4 caveats:
1. gold_shackles is kinda hanging out there but I see the value in leaving it as a distinct tag because of the occasional djinni archetype.

2. leather_cuffs are almost always used in BDSM, so perhaps they should be aliased to bondage_cuff since it's a common type of bondage_gear

3. We need to formally decide if shackles imply being connected by a chain/magic, which is how it's usually described (thanks TheVileOne). Unfortunately people are playing very fast and loose with this currently. Shackles are often mounted to solid objects (wall, sex machine, whatever).

4. magical_cuffs and magical_shackles are basically considered the same thing since there's so few of them

I'm fine with either way, we just need to pick.

i sent u my ascii art please answer :3

Ugh, sorry, just added to your work: New Wiki articles for Electrode_Cuff and Penis_Cuff. Testicle_Cuff entry already existed, though.

I'll read the posts, then edit with further reply.

OK, read it and... Yeah, I see a big part of the problem with people playing "fast and loose" is that the definitions might not be clear enough. Also, inertia/GIGO feedback when random results of post search gives inconsistent examples. XD

alphamule said:
Ugh, sorry, just added to your work: New Wiki articles for Electrode_Cuff and Penis_Cuff. Testicle_Cuff entry already existed, though.

I'll read the posts, then edit with further reply.

OK, read it and... Yeah, I see a big part of the problem with people playing "fast and loose" is that the definitions might not be clear enough. Also, inertia/GIGO feedback when random results of post search gives inconsistent examples. XD

Nah, these make sense and are good for tagging different kinds of electrodes, for example.

Agreed on the definitions though. I think the big sticking point will be what the hell is actually a shackle. :(

A cuff is any sort of band restraint, while a shackle is a thick metal cuff? Should we just let people tag shackles as they want and see what happens? Shackles is an older word and some definitions I've seen imply that they are the thiccest of metal restraints that were usually semi-permanently fastened with a hammer. (That's very metal, if you'll forgive the pun.) Every definition I've found though implies that they are ankle restraints. So I think the previous alias might've had the right idea but was backwards. shackles -> ankle_cuffs, not vice-versa.

Either way, I'm going to propose in the BUR that we remove the handcuffs -> shackles implication so we can start cleaning up there.

EDIT: Updated the BUR. I changed the alias to an implicate for iron_cuffs -> metal_cuffs, as well as gold_cuffs -> metal_cuffs, in case people really want to search specific tags. I also requested unimplicating handcuffs -> shackles and implicating handcuffs -> metal_cuffs instead.

The bulk update request #1722 (forum #) has been approved by @bitWolfy.

The bulk update request #1720 (forum #322741) has been approved by @bitWolfy.

Shackles is still an open question, but at least now handcuffs and ankle_cuffs do not directly implicate them. I've started cleanup projects for both on tagme.dev (although I can't figure out how to tag them such that reviewed posts don't get put back into the queue...)

ankle_cuffs should be easy-ish but handcuffs will definitely take some time.

As an interesting point, here's an example of a post that I think blurs the line between cuffs, handcuffs, and shackles

post #2579301

It's got handcuffs but they're heavy enough to be considered shackles, as are the chained metal_cuffs on the feet. There will be edge cases like this and I hope people will mostly get it right when they tag. It's not the end of the world if they don't, of course.

The tag implication leather_cuff -> cuff_(restraint) has been rejected by @bitWolfy.

The bulk update request #1723 (forum #) has been approved by @bitWolfy.

Hello, everyone.

I've changed
-ankle_cuffs
-wrist_cuffs and
-tail_cuff
from saying 'a type of shackles' to 'a type of cuff restraints '.

In
-bondage_gear
I've changed the list from

• shackles
• handcuffs
• wrist_cuff
• ankle_cuffs
• tail_cuff

to

• cuff (restraint)
• ankle_cuffs
• handcuffs
• shackles
• tail_cuff
• thigh cuffs
• wrist_cuffs.

And made that same change to the 'see also' section in ankle_cuffs/wrist_cuffs/tail_cuff.
I've also erased the wrist cuff page since that was already aliased to wrist_cuffs. I take this is the right thing to do when a tag is obsolete?

I think these tags are looking pretty good already now with the new shackles definition and the cuff_(restraint) page.

I suggest aliasing bondage_cuff to cuff_(restraint) the same way bondage_cuffs was.
There is also the tag bondage_wrist_cuff flying around, which could also be aliased.

The bulk update request #3232 is pending approval.

create alias leg_cuff (139) -> leg_cuffs (230)

Reason: Just noticed there are two leg_cuff* tags:
1) 98 . . . leg_cuff
2) 51 . . . leg_cuffs

Since there are
1) alias: ankle_cuff -> ankle_cuffs (alias #7782 with no forum post)
2) alias: wrist_cuff -> wrist_cuffs (alias #55684 , in this forum thread)

suggest leg_cuff should alias to leg_cuffs.

Thanks for reading.

listerthesquirrel said:
The bulk update request #3232 is pending approval.

create alias leg_cuff (139) -> leg_cuffs (230)

Reason: Just noticed there are two leg_cuff* tags:
1) 98 . . . leg_cuff
2) 51 . . . leg_cuffs

Since there are
1) alias: ankle_cuff -> ankle_cuffs (alias #7782 with no forum post)
2) alias: wrist_cuff -> wrist_cuffs (alias #55684 , in this forum thread)

suggest leg_cuff should alias to leg_cuffs.

Thanks for reading.

Been correcting restraint/restrained and cuff/bound/tied issues as I find them. :)