The tag alias #61582 crossgender -> crossgender_(lore) has been rejected.

Reason: This gets discussed a lot, we should actually do it. The crossgender tag intrinsically relies on outside information, making it incompatible with TWYS, so it should belong in the lore category.

category crossgender -> lore has actually been approved once already (topic #31169) but it failed because it didn't have the lore suffix. This request will rename the tag first (using an alias so we don't have to delete all the transitives first with a BUR) and the category change will be in a BUR to follow.

The subtags (mtf_crossgender and etc.) will still have to be handled separately but... this is a good first step.

other discussion:
topic #36337 topic #31246 topic #23515
forum #299716 forum #339615 forum #339643
https://discord.com/channels/431908090883997698/460517895420772353/1081981707030376478
https://discord.com/channels/431908090883997698/530154835648053258/901702759970140190

and probably more

EDIT: The tag alias crossgender -> crossgender_(lore) (forum #359656) has been rejected by @faucet.

The bulk update request #4324 is pending approval.

change category crossgender_(lore) (0) -> lore # missing

Reason: category change

Bumping this, a good first step. The number of wiki's and the entire implication family definitely will require quite a bit of effort to move over to their lore counterparts

Wait, so if Crossgender becomes a lore tag
What happens to ftm_crossgender and mtf_crossgender will they stay the same?
What of all the posts of Original characters, canon characters, and fan characters under these tags?

Isn't FTM & MTF imply Crossgender, so now will it imply Crossgender_(lore)?

I'm kinda split on this, it is based on external knowledge but it's also not tagged in quite the same fashion that other lore tags are. all the other lore tags are based solely artist intention, but the crossgender tag family, as well as the other alternate_* and aged_* tags are based on the visuals of the image to some extent.

closetpossum said:
Wait, so if Crossgender becomes a lore tag
What happens to ftm_crossgender and mtf_crossgender will they stay the same?

Hopefully they'll be aliased to to their lore counterparts, though that might take a while.

sipothac said:
I'm kinda split on this, it is based on external knowledge but it's also not tagged in quite the same fashion that other lore tags are. all the other lore tags are based solely artist intention, but the crossgender tag family, as well as the other alternate_* and aged_* tags are based on the visuals of the image to some extent.

Well it definitely deserves a move from general since it's not exactly TWYS, but I do get what you mean.

Actually, thinking about it a bit, moving crossgender to lore would mean that the tag would follow artist intention, then the canon.

So there's the possibility that the situation below may occur.
Artist believes x is male, and that they're r63'ing them by drawing them as female, despite canon saying they are female.

So according to the artist the character is crossgender, but to the viewers it just seems like a mistag, and something they weren't really looking for.

(It could happen the other way too, artist accidentally making them crossgender according to canon but believes and intends it not to be)

Is this a very unlikely hypothetical? Maybe.

snpthecat said:
Actually, thinking about it a bit, moving crossgender to lore would mean that the tag would follow artist intention, then the canon.

So there's the possibility that the situation below may occur.
Artist believes x is male, and that they're r63'ing them by drawing them as female, despite canon saying they are female.

So according to the artist the character is crossgender, but to the viewers it just seems like a mistag, and something they weren't really looking for.

(It could happen the other way too, artist accidentally making them crossgender according to canon but believes and intends it not to be)

Is this a very unlikely hypothetical? Maybe.

I really don't want this to dive into another confusing discussion, the Rivet x gender thing was a headache enough.
I'm worried that making crossgender into a lore tag will upset the understanding we have with our current crosgender tag

Sometimes peeps just want to see their Male OC female...sometimes they want to see their female OC male. Sometimes they want to genderbend a character from media they like.
That is the basic understanding of crossgender. Adding it as yet another lore tag makes it so that we have to factor in artist intentions, which sounds like we're about to throw yet another monkey wrench.

closetpossum said:
I really don't want this to dive into another confusing discussion, the Rivet x gender thing was a headache enough.
I'm worried that making crossgender into a lore tag will upset the understanding we have with our current crosgender tag

Sometimes peeps just want to see their Male OC female...sometimes they want to see their female OC male. Sometimes they want to genderbend a character from media they like.
That is the basic understanding of crossgender. Adding it as yet another lore tag makes it so that we have to factor in artist intentions, which sounds like we're about to throw yet another monkey wrench.

You kind of contribute to make this discussion confusing. Crossgender is already taking character owner/intellectual property/artist intention as a basis on whethrr it is taggable or not.

wolfmanfur said:
You kind of contribute to make this discussion confusing. Crossgender is already taking character owner/intellectual property/artist intention as a basis on whethrr it is taggable or not.

hmmm, I'll ponder on that and see where this goes.

I think having these in the lore section also kinda, I dunno, dilutes(?) the lore tag category. I think I'd prefer if the stuff under (lore) stay more or less pretty similar in their meaning and purpose, and these tags just don't quite feel the same to me as the gender, trans, age, and familial lore tags.

sipothac said:
I think having these in the lore section also kinda, I dunno, dilutes(?) the lore tag category. I think I'd prefer if the stuff under (lore) stay more or less pretty similar in their meaning and purpose, and these tags just don't quite feel the same to me as the gender, trans, age, and familial lore tags.

I agree

I think the crossgender tags are just as much twys as character tags already are. Character and species are tagged based on artist intent or external knowledge half the time. If we can see that it's X character and Y gender, I don't see a need for a lore tag.

oopsitripped said:
I think the crossgender tags are just as much twys as character tags already are. Character and species are tagged based on artist intent or external knowledge half the time. If we can see that it's X character and Y gender, I don't see a need for a lore tag.

Yeah, but character tags are in the character category, not the general category. The general category is meant to be more strict on TYWS and not TWYK.

Also, species is pretty much TWYS.

The tag alias crossgender -> crossgender_(lore) (forum #359656) has been rejected by @faucet.