Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
The tag implication #50493 winter_coat -> coat has been rejected.
Reason: A thick coat typically worn in cold temperatures
EDIT: The tag implication winter_coat -> coat (forum #362544) has been rejected by @Zenith-Pendragon.
Updated by auto moderator
Why the downvotes suddenly? 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Look up the coat wiki. It is solely referring to a topwear clothing item, not a ‘coat’ that animals have. The winter_coat tag is used for a thick coat (clothing) that is worn in cold temperatures. It has nothing to do with animals.
Here are some examples of a winter_coat
It may be best to write up a wiki entry that lays out how the tag is being used on e621.
zenith-pendragon said:
Look up the coat wiki. It is solely referring to a topwear clothing item, not a ‘coat’ that animals have. The winter_coat tag is used for a thick coat (clothing) that is worn in cold temperatures. It has nothing to do with animals.
The wiki doesn't stop people from interpreting it differently. Winter coat and summer coat are very common terms for describing an animal's pelt in and around the corresponding season, and for a site that focuses on furred animal characters, that's pretty easy to mistake.
watsit said:
The wiki doesn't stop people from interpreting it differently. Winter coat and summer coat are very common terms for describing an animal's pelt in and around the corresponding season, and for a site that focuses on furred animal characters, that's pretty easy to mistake.
Okay, but how can one tell if a character has a winter coat or a summer coat via TWYS? Unless you have the knowledge to know how an animal’s coat looks like during certain seasons, it doesn’t seem that simple to tell the difference. I mean a character can constantly have a thick coat even during the summer. The same can be said vice versa.
The only way this winter coat summer coat distinction can be useful is if it’s depicted in character sheets, like this one:
post #3769445
Suggestion: Let's use the winter_coat tag for the clothing, and create winter_coat_(anatomy) or something similar for animal coat.
zenith-pendragon said:
Okay, but how can one tell if a character has a winter coat or a summer coat via TWYS?
Color and thickness can be clues.
m3g4p0n1 said:
Suggestion: Let's use the winter_coat tag for the clothing, and create winter_coat_(anatomy) or something similar for animal coat.
That doesn't help for people trying to use winter_coat thinking it's for an animal's pelt. I would suggest disambiguating/aliasing coat tags and using either jacket or pelt. winter_jacket and winter_pelt are much clearer.
I swear we've already had this exact thread...
zenith-pendragon said:
Why the downvotes suddenly? 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
wat8548 said:
I swear we've already had this exact thread...
Was gonna say this got rejected 4 months ago
watsit said:
Color and thickness can be clues.That doesn't help for people trying to use winter_coat thinking it's for an animal's pelt. I would suggest disambiguating/aliasing coat tags and using either jacket or pelt. winter_jacket and winter_pelt are much clearer.
m3g4p0n1 said:
Sounds better, I agree with that.
Except, the wiki defines clearly coat and jacket as two different garments. Is there any synonym for coat that I'm not aware of? I don't believe any folk would want to lump coats and jackets together.
wolfmanfur said:
Except, the wiki defines clearly coat and jacket as two different garments. Is there any synonym for coat that I'm not aware of? I don't believe any folk would want to lump coats and jackets together.
I've personally always thought of them as synonyms. This is first time I've seen someone make a distinction. Maybe there's some technical difference, but in practice I've always seen and used them interchangeably, like couch vs sofa.
watsit said:
I've personally always thought of them as synonyms. This is first time I've seen someone make a distinction. Maybe there's some technical difference, but in practice I've always seen and used them interchangeably, like couch vs sofa.
Coats are generally heavier, less close-fitting, and more insulating than a jacket.
The terms coat and jacket are both used around the world. The modern terms "jacket" and "coat" are often used interchangeably as terms, although the term "coat" tends to be used to refer to longer garments.
I tend to associate jackets as being lighter and less insulative than coats, better for cool weather more common during spring and autumn than the cold, often freezing weather of winter. They're like an intermediate stage between just regular clothes and heavy weather wear.
The modern terms "jacket" and "coat" are often used interchangeably as terms, although the term "coat" tends to be used to refer to longer garments.
I've never had an issue saying "winter jacket" for a thicker more insulated coat suited for winter weather. Though if "coat" tends to be used for longer overcoat style clothing, that would be more reason to avoid 'coat'; use pelt for an animal's fur coat, jacket for a roughly hip-length coat, or overcoat for longer coats.
Surely this could be resolved by just renaming it "winter_coat_(clothing)"?
furrypickle said:
Surely this could be resolved by just renaming it "winter_coat_(clothing)"?
You'd also then need "winter_coat_(fur)", and still need to disambiguate "winter_coat" too since people will try to tag it for either without the suffix. IMO, it would be better to have "winter_pelt" and "winter_jacket" since it doesn't need a suffix to distinguish an ambiguous term. winter_jacket has already seen some use too, so we'd need jacket aliases anyway. There's also summer_coat that would need the same, along with coat in general which can be understood to mean an animal's fur coat. I just think aliasing to "*_jacket" would be better than aliasing from "*_jacket" to "*_coat_(clothing)".
Jacket is not =/= coat. This might depend on where someone is from, but in a general sense:
Jacket is widely used for lighter weight, thinner, etc types.
While 'coat' is widely used for heavier weight, thicker, warmer, and frequently puffier types.
There are some midweight types, especially of certain styles, can sometimes be called both...but people will argue/correct over it.
Generally if it is thick, bulky, etc then people lean towards "no, that's a coat". Necessary for winter in colder regions.
And if it is a slimmer thickness, not very bulky, lighter weight, then it tends to be called just a "jacket". More common for autumn/spring, or in milder regions where it never gets cold enough to require a bulkier coat.
To illustrate how this often changes things in practice: A "jean jacket" would probably be mainly just the denim itself, no liner or just a fashion fabric liner. And a "jean coat" would probably be thickly lined with something else, like a fleece, or called "blanket lined" etc, and be bulkier. Although jean jackets are far more common than denim coats.
But to a lot of native speakers:
- Calling a lighter jacket as being a "coat" is maybe fudge-able depending on the style, but not entirely accurate. At least, not in places where heavier coats are worn part of the year.
- Some types do overlap and can be called either. A heavier jacket might be called a lighter coat, etc. Or just be debated about.
- But calling an actual coat as a "jacket" is seen as very incorrect for most traditional coat styles.
So calling everything "jacket" will lead to "well it's not a jacket, so I just won't tag it" types of mistags and frustration.
furrypickle said:
To illustrate how this often changes things in practice: A "jean jacket" would probably be mainly just the denim itself, no liner or just a fashion fabric liner. And a "jean coat" would probably be thickly lined with something else, like a fleece, or called "blanket lined" etc, and be bulkier. Although jean jackets are far more common than denim coats.
I have no problem looking at a thick, bulky coat and calling it a jacket (as a native English speaker (American)). There's even the term "down jacket" for thicker and more insulated jackets (filled with feathers, like a down pillow), like this:
https://cdna.lystit.com/photos/7bfe-2014/08/11/marmot-black-stockholm-down-jacket-casual-jackets-product-1-22385553-0-735623511-normal.jpeg
furrypickle said:
But to a lot of native speakers:
- Calling a lighter jacket as being a "coat" is maybe fudge-able depending on the style, but not entirely accurate. At least, not in places where heavier coats are worn part of the year.
I grew up in an area that would get a good bit of snow over the winter (where wearing snow suits and building snow forts throughout the season was common), and never considered there to be any significant difference between "coat" and "jacket". No one ever looked at me odd, nor was I taught a difference. Wikipedia gives examples of jackets being called coats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat
Similarly, in American English, the term sports coat is used to denote a type of jacket not worn as outerwear
...
The modern jacket worn with a suit is traditionally called a lounge coat (or a lounge jacket) in British English and a sack coat in American English.
...
Speakers of American English sometimes informally use the words jacket and coat interchangeably.[12]
...
12. Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford University Press, 1971
furrypickle said:
So calling everything "jacket" will lead to "well it's not a jacket, so I just won't tag it" types of mistags and frustration.
But keeping them separate will mean having "coats" tagged as jackets by some people, and "jackets" tagged as coats by others. People will have to search both tags whenever they want either tag.
watsit said:
I have no problem looking at a thick, bulky coat and calling it a jacket (as a native English speaker (American)). There's even the term "down jacket" for thicker and more insulated jackets (filled with feathers, like a down pillow), like this:
https://cdna.lystit.com/photos/7bfe-2014/08/11/marmot-black-stockholm-down-jacket-casual-jackets-product-1-22385553-0-735623511-normal.jpegI grew up in an area that would get a good bit of snow over the winter (where wearing snow suits and building snow forts throughout the season was common), and never considered there to be any significant difference between "coat" and "jacket". No one ever looked at me odd, nor was I taught a difference. Wikipedia gives examples of jackets being called coats:
But keeping them separate will mean having "coats" tagged as jackets by some people, and "jackets" tagged as coats by others. People will have to search both tags whenever they want either tag.
Your local dialect is irrelevant to how people use a word globally.
Where I live, everybody calls coats 'vests', but that's only where I live. So, while I'm in the same situaton as you, it is for a different word.
wolfmanfur said:
Your local dialect is irrelevant to how people use a word globally.
And globally there is no consensus on the distinction. It's couch vs sofa again. Sure there was a distinction when the terms were made, and some people hold on to a distinctions (some more than others), but the distinction is going away and I don't see a furry art archive as needing to maintain a distinction that not everyone agrees with. Leaving the tags separate won't result in the tags being property coordinated, posts will be split between the tags and users won't be able to rely on either one.
versus
light_jacket?
+1 for now. Is there any history of mistagging winter_coat? I cannot find any.
People have stated that winter_coat is often tagged to mean a type of fur on an animal, yet have provided no evidence to support their claims.
If the tag has existed for a long time, and is not usually mistagged, then I don't see why this can't go through. If it hasn't been a problem before, I don't see it suddenly becoming one after this is approved.
kyiiel said:
+1 for now. Is there any history of mistagging winter_coat? I cannot find any.
post #3769445 post #3709738 post #3713714 post #3694895 post #3533363 post #3294483 post #3242441 ...
kyiiel said:
+1 for now. Is there any history of mistagging winter_coat? I cannot find any.
People have stated that winter_coat is often tagged to mean a type of fur on an animal, yet have provided no evidence to support their claims.
From the last time this exact request came up:
This is gonna need policing if it goes through.
post #446316 post #2519682 post #1427139
post #3294483 post #1427157 post #83629
magnuseffect said:
From the last time this exact request came up:
I see. Yeah it's probably best to disambig this tag somehow.
kyiiel said:
+1 for now. Is there any history of mistagging winter_coat? I cannot find any.
Just searching winter_coat nude produces a striking number of applicable examples, and that's far from everything.
As for the notion of the fur-type being a mistagging, if you go back in tagging history it was the original use-case, and had 13 taggings before two users added 9 clothing-type taggings against it.
zenith-pendragon said:
Okay, but how can one tell if a character has a winter coat or a summer coat via TWYS? Unless you have the knowledge to know how an animal’s coat looks like during certain seasons, it doesn’t seem that simple to tell the difference.
There's always been a level of knowledge required for tagging, despite the phrase. It's more like having knowledge of non-fiction is assumed, and we're only prohibited from using fictional knowledge.
The tag implication winter_coat -> coat (forum #362544) has been rejected by @Zenith-Pendragon.
I have decided to reject this implication request, since a majority of you are under the impression that winter_coat should refer to a certain type of fur rather than a thick clothing worn during cold temperatures.
I personally think this is a ridiculous assumption, since it doesn’t fully meet tag-what-you-see criteria and instead relies on tag-what-you-know (which goes against e621 rules ), but hey… it is not in my authority to decide what others should do here.
Some of you have suggested to use winter_jacket for the clothing item. As Furrypickle and Clawstripe pointed out, jackets are thinner compared to coats and are not meant to keep the wearer warm during cold temperatures.
zenith-pendragon said:
I have decided to reject this implication request, since a majority of you are under the impression that winter_coat should refer to a certain type of fur rather than a thick clothing worn during cold temperatures.
Less that it "should", and more that it easily could. We don't deny that "winter coat" can refer to thick clothing to protect against cold temperatures, but it can also refer to an animal's fur that they get for handling cold temperatures, and that creates enough ambiguity to cause problems with the tag.
zenith-pendragon said:
Some of you have suggested to use winter_jacket for the clothing item. As Furrypickle and Clawstripe pointed out, jackets are thinner compared to coats and are not meant to keep the wearer warm during cold temperatures, so that decision out of the question.
That is not true. Look up down jackets, which are thicker and designed to help insulate during colder temperatures (some designs are simply two coats sewn together with extra insulation in between). The distinction between a jacket and coat is not that clear, and depending on where you live, the terms jacket and coat may be more or less interchangeable.
watsit said:
Less that it "should", and more that it easily could. We don't deny that "winter coat" can refer to thick clothing to protect against cold temperatures, but it can also refer to an animal's fur that they get for handling cold temperatures, and that creates enough ambiguity to cause problems with the tag.That is not true. Look up down jackets, which are thicker and designed to help insulate during colder temperatures (some designs are simply two coats sewn together with extra insulation in between). The distinction between a jacket and coat is not that clear, and depending on where you live, the terms jacket and coat may be more or less interchangeable.
I suppose those are understandable arguments.
zenith-pendragon said:
I personally think this is a ridiculous assumption, since it doesn’t fully meet tag-what-you-see criteria and instead relies on tag-what-you-know (which goes against e621 rules ), but hey… it is not in my authority to decide what others should do here.
Okay, another shot at this.
what-you-know is in reference to features which are either:
You need to know what features are before you can tag them (or else you wouldn't be able to identify taggable features at all.) As many holes as TWYS has, this is not one of them.
But aside from that, I personally don't think we should be making any implications for tags that are this divisive which attempt to cement the meaning one way or the other. That's how you get chronic mistagging.If people in the forum are going to have this much argument over what the tag is for, what do you think is going to happen with taggers who don't read the forum or wikis and don't stop to check what they've actually added?
Tagging relations need to anticipate how a tag will be applied in practice, as layman taggers frequently disregard established site definitions in favour of what they think a term means from their external experiences.
magnuseffect said:
Okay, another shot at this.
what-you-know is in reference to features which are either:
- Visually unverifiable within the post
- Not established facts of reality (i.e. Things that only exist in fiction)
You need to know what features are before you can tag them (or else you wouldn't be able to identify taggable features at all.) As many holes as TWYS has, this is not one of them.
But aside from that, I personally don't think we should be making any implications for tags that are this divisive which attempt to cement the meaning one way or the other. That's how you get chronic mistagging.If people in the forum are going to have this much argument over what the tag is for, what do you think is going to happen with taggers who don't read the forum or wikis and don't stop to check what they've actually added?
Tagging relations need to anticipate how a tag will be applied in practice, as layman taggers frequently disregard established site definitions in favour of what they think a term means from their external experiences.
Just wanted to chime-in to say that is the exact excuse why my proposal to rename coat to fleece is not being accepted because they used the very same argument as above, except instead of coat they're complaining that fleece isn't a word for clothing when typing fleece into google results in more clothing pieces than anything related to sheep.
Meanwhile, that would have quashed the debate because coat covers nearly every animal on Earth while fleece only covers sheep at most while being equally as much of a clothing term as coat is.
wolfmanfur said:
when typing fleece into google results in more clothing pieces than anything related to sheep.
I don't think it should be a surprise that when you Google something that has a meaning in consumer-outdoorswear the first page is full of retailer links. I'm glad Google SEO isn't the arbiter of tagging definitions.
I also don't understand which part of the post you're replying to. And changing the established site-definition of coat to fleece still doesn't change that whatever happens here in the forum, users will continue to input winter_coat for both the fur and the clothing.
magnuseffect said:
I don't think it should be a surprise that when you Google something that has a meaning in consumer-outdoorswear the first page is full of retailer links. I'm glad Google SEO isn't the arbiter of tagging definitions.
I also don't understand which part of the post you're replying to. And changing the established site-definition of coat to fleece still doesn't change that whatever happens here in the forum, users will continue to input winter_coat for both the fur and the clothing.
Coat and winter_coat should be aliased to coat_(disambiguation) then to differentiate between a piece of cloth and an animal pelt, it would have used winter_fleece for the clothing piece and winter_pelt for the animal.
