With the recent "cub" changes marking a well needed trend toward more descriptive language in tags, I think it's time we re-examine the language surrounding female anatomy.

Currently, we tag penises as 'penis' and vulvae as 'pussy.' Ignoring the claim that this has potentially sexist implications, I think there is still merit for the change. For one, 'vulva' is a specific term for that part of the body, while 'pussy' is a slang term that can colloquially refer to a number of things, such as the vaginal canal, the womb, the uterus, or the vulva (or more commonly, all at once). However, we use the tag 'pussy' to describe just the vulva and the vaginal opening. Secondly, the current tags related to the pussy tag are wildly inconsistent. We have both 'pussy_ring' and 'labia_ring,' for which the difference is unclear, and we have 'vaginal_masturbation' which seems clear, until you compare it to tags like 'vaginal_penetration,' 'clitoral_masturbation,' 'penile_masturbation' or 'tail in pussy.'

Furthermore, the only justification I've found on this forum relating to why we tag this way is "Because most people don't know what a vulva is," which, not only IS sexist; it is holding our user base to a degree of intelligence that is quite literally lower than a fifth grader.

Hell yes!!!! It is absolutely time for this. As a woman I honestly do feel this is (unintentionally) sexist and it really bothers me. I'll see if I can start a BUR soon, if nobody else gets to it first.

reinayeen said:
Furthermore, the only justification I've found on this forum relating to why we tag this way is "Because most people don't know what a vulva is," which, not only IS sexist; it is holding our user base to a degree of intelligence that is quite literally lower than a fifth grader.

God I fucking hate this so much. Every english-speaking adult should know basic anatomical terms. I'm sure they know all the equivalent male anatomical terms.
It's 2024 and women aren't some mystical other species.

The reason I've read is that "pussy" encompasses "vulva", "labia", and "vagina", so we don't have to get into the weeds on exactly which of those is visible in the image. Of course, whether you find that reasoning convincing is another matter.

cloudpie said:
Hell yes!!!! It is absolutely time for this. As a woman I honestly do feel this is (unintentionally) sexist and it really bothers me. I'll see if I can start a BUR soon, if nobody else gets to it first.

God I fucking hate this so much. Every english-speaking adult should know basic anatomical terms. I'm sure they know all the equivalent male anatomical terms.
It's 2024 and women aren't some mystical other species.

exactly! Not only do many people who have a vulva use this site, It's incredibly silly to assume that most people who don't have one find the word completely alien

vulpes_artifex said:
The reason I've read is that "pussy" encompasses "vulva", "labia", and "vagina", so we don't have to get into the weeds on exactly which of those is visible in the image. Of course, whether you find that reasoning convincing is another matter.

I'd argue otherwise. we already have tags like 'vaginal_canal' and 'clitoris' and reading the note on why "vagina" is aliased to clitoris on the 'vaginal_canal' wiki page, it's very clear that when the site uses 'pussy' it just means vulva.
https://e621.net/wiki_pages/42166

vulpes_artifex said:
The reason I've read is that "pussy" encompasses "vulva", "labia", and "vagina", so we don't have to get into the weeds on exactly which of those is visible in the image. Of course, whether you find that reasoning convincing is another matter.

Vulva also encompasses inner and outer labia and the vaginal opening. It refers to all external parts of the female genitals. The internal part is the vaginal_canal, which like ReinaYeen said, is served fine by its own tag. It's really only shown in internal views and maybe unbirthing. It works well as a separate tag.

I don't disagree, I hate the word and hate using it, and slang tags (other than this one) have practically no place in the e621 tagging system. This mess comes from the way the site was originally run (clitoris being a separate tag only came within the last few years, it was aliased to pussy when I first started using e621)

...but it's a logistical nightmare to change anything at this point. I've told people in the past I'll gladly support it if they make a fully-functional BUR that handles everything, they never actually make it once they realise how much work it'll be.

Aliasing pussy to vulva would probably work, and be quite trivial to do, but there's more problems than that.

828 tags currently contain "pussy", I think the BUR limit is 25 so that would be 34 BURs required for just that.

But before we can even tackle that all the existing relationships need to be removed:

• 424 aliases
• 295 implications

Maybe you've got the time to make 62 BURs? Sure, you could probably automate it or something, but here comes the next problem.

'pussy' is a slang term that can colloquially refer to a number of things, such as the vaginal canal, the womb, the uterus, or the vulva (or more commonly, all at once).

It can't be automated. Every single tag is going to have to be manually checked for the context the word "pussy" is being used in, it can't just be straight up swapped for vulva. An example, penis_in_vulva makes no sense, it needs to be penis_in_vagina.

wubly use pussy but then vaginal_penetration just seems inconsistent. Why do we do this? pussy is a slang term, no?

100% agree, we alias dick to penis so there's no reason to keep pussy as the "main" tag. If you're old enough to tag/search for posts with a vulva, then you're old enough to know what a vulva is

The only point that might be worth considering would be tags such as *_penetration, *_masturbation, etc
As far as I know penile_penetration and penile_masturbation are the accepted standard and relate to penis. But the commonly used vaginal_penetration and vaginal_masturbation explicitly refer to vagina instead of vulva.

I know for sure that either changing them to vulval_* tags, or changing the "standard" tag to vagina would make a lot of people really angry, but I can always hope for a time in the future where tag names are coherent and we all live happily ever after

mabit said:
The only point that might be worth considering would be tags such as *_penetration, *_masturbation, etc
As far as I know penile_penetration and penile_masturbation are the accepted standard and relate to penis. But the commonly used vaginal_penetration and vaginal_masturbation explicitly refer to vagina instead of vulva.

I know for sure that either changing them to vulval_* tags, or changing the "standard" tag to vagina would make a lot of people really angry, but I can always hope for a time in the future where tag names are coherent and we all live happily ever after

hjfduitloxtrds said:
wubly use pussy but then vaginal_penetration just seems inconsistent.

The vaginal tags are fine and don't need to be changed. Those tags refer to the vaginal canal. That's why vaginal_penetration doesn't imply pussy, the vulva may or may not be visible. Vulval_* doesn't make any sense.

faucet said:
Maybe you've got the time to make 62 BURs?

Gonna take a long while but I'm going to try :)

Yes!! I would be down to help with burs in any way I can. There should be ways to divide up the work.

What do you guys think about tagging the individual parts of the anatomy, implying the relevant ones to vulva and then implying them all to "pussy"? Keep pussy as a nebulous "female genitals" tag. That way we have an umbrella tag for searchers who just want to find female genitals and lazy taggers who don't know their anatomy. Plus, it would alleviate the need to sort through 100% of the pussy tag. I don't like the term either, but keeping it might be more convenient

Labia minora -> vulva
Labia majora -> vulva
Vulva -> pussy
Vaginal cannal -> pussy
Clitoris -> pussy
Clitoral hood -> pussy
Vagina -> pussy (because vagina will inevitably be tagged on any female genitals, internal or external)

Some would argue that labia tags are too granular (i disagree but whatever), but it would set a much needed precedent for more specific tags. Long_labia and puffy_labia currently refer to completely different parts of the vulva, for example. :|

cloudpie said:
The vaginal tags are fine and don't need to be changed. Those tags refer to the vaginal canal. That's why vaginal_penetration doesn't imply pussy, the vulva may or may not be visible. Vulval_* doesn't make any sense.

um,no. I was rather suggesting changing all of the pussy tags.

faucet said:
I don't disagree, I hate the word and hate using it, and slang tags (other than this one) have practically no place in the e621 tagging system.

Along with balls—and funnily enough, the scrotum is homologous to the vulva, so at least there's some symmetry there.

cloudpie said:
Vulva also encompasses inner and outer labia and the vaginal opening. It refers to all external parts of the female genitals. The internal part is the vaginal_canal, which like ReinaYeen said, is served fine by its own tag. It's really only shown in internal views and maybe unbirthing. It works well as a separate tag.

Like I implied, it's not particularly convincing reasoning. Images that show the vagina but not the vulva can't be very common.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
um,no. I was rather suggesting changing all of the pussy tags.

Oh sorry - I agree with you then

cloudpie said:
Oh sorry - I agree with you then

well sometimes I just have a difficult time expressing my thoughts into words, which leads to misunderstandings sometimes. I probably did not properly convey meanings in a very logical explanation or something

Well, devil's advocate here, but this would be like scrotum and testes -> balls, glans/clitoris difference, foreskin compared to labia/clitoral_hood, urethra differences, vulva versus vagina compared to vas/prostate/corpus canvernosum/corpus spongiosum, medial_ring/knot/genital_barbs (yes, both males and females can have them), and so on.

I agree that pussy is a damn vague and slangish term, though. I've just never seen a better replacement that didn't run into some of the same issues over and over again. See also: history of innie_pussy (same as cleft_of_venus). Where only the outer labia are visible. Comparable to the scrotum in males. The description doesn't allow the hood, but that's kind of unavoidable most of the time.

Maybe a good compromise is to have a tag specific to the vulva and womb and vagina and so on, separate from pussy, and like with the parts of male anatomy, implicating penis. I don't imagine there's a 100% tagging when (retracted or not) foreskin or circumcised applies. We already tag cervix and uterus, AFAICT.

Pussy Riot tried to own the term, BTW. Sigh... Being called a Dick is pretty bad, too.

Faucet and CloudPie said most of what I was thinking, though.

I agree that the term "pussy" should be split up in vulva, clitoris, vaginal... etc. so it is more descriptive, and easier to find specific things.

I also agree that it will be a painful project to set up, as faucet pointed out. And I can imagine that this could be a reason that this won't happen, sadly.

reinayeen said:
..."Because most people don't know what a vulva is," which, not only IS sexist...

I disagree with this, though. Being unaware of something doesn't make you a bad person. Knowing it, and not acting on it, does.

^{Unnecessary side note: It is kinda funny to me that "pussy" is a bad word, it sounds so cute to me, compared to the German slang words, I am used to.}

external_female_genitals/female_genitals/internal_female_genitals <--- Kind of joking but that's slightly more accurate. XD

dubsthefox said:
I disagree with this, though. Being unaware of something doesn't make you a bad person. Knowing it, and not acting on it, does.

You misunderstood. Saying "most people don't know what a vulva is" is a sexist statement. "Most people," in fact, have a vulva (~51%). It's either stating "I don't consider women to be people," "I think most women are stupid," or "I believe this website should cater exclusively to men, who i also consider largely ignorant."

Edit: ah shit, got my data backwards. Women are only 49.7% of the population. We lose ladies. :(
Edit 2: nevermind! America is mostly female! suck it men!...er

reinayeen said:
You misunderstood. Saying "most people don't know what a vulva is" is a sexist statement. "Most people," in fact, have a vulva (~51%). It's either stating "I don't consider women to be people," "I think most women are stupid," or "I believe this website should cater exclusively to men, who i also consider largely ignorant."

Edit: ah shit, got my data backwards. Women are only 49.7% of the population. We lose ladies. :(
Edit 2: nevermind! America is mostly female! suck it men!...er

I hate to tell you this, but even without a site census I feel confident saying the majority of e621 users are most likely male.

votp said:
I hate to tell you this, but even without a site census I feel confident saying the majority of e621 users are most likely male.

Even in the staff team alone, it's a sausage fest

We only have one female staff member, that being Rainbow Dash

it is concerning how female do outnumber male and yet... people lack info about the details of the female genitalia.

but hey i'm part of the problem, i'm too gay to want to learn female anatomy.

benjiboyo said:
it is concerning how female do outnumber male and yet... people lack info about the details of the female genitalia.

but hey i'm part of the problem, i'm too gay to want to learn female anatomy.

Same here. Never had a biology lesson about humans or reproduction in general, so I never learned female anatomy. And now, I have no desire to learn it.

donovan_dmc said:
Same here. Never had a biology lesson about humans or reproduction in general, so I never learned female anatomy. And now, I have no desire to learn it.

I mean, you're a moderator on a porn site so, like, I think the average user would expect you to know at least basic genital anatomy.

reinayeen said:
I mean, you're a moderator on a porn site so, like, I think the average user would expect you to know at least basic genital anatomy.

I'm not sure how dealing with users relates to knowing anatomy. My duties don't include handling posts.

Beyond that, I still wouldn't really need to know female anatomy if I were a janitor. Anatomy is only judged when it's so bad that any ol' joe could tell it's wrong from a quick glance.

votp said:
I hate to tell you this, but even without a site census I feel confident saying the majority of e621 users are most likely male.

Correct me if im assuming wrong, but I think you're being willfully obtuse. Of course the website is mostly male. Potentially mostly gay male. But assuming a forum is exclusively men, and using that to justify enforcing exclusionary practice, such as sexist language or reasoning is a web ethics discussion older than I am.

I don't think you're being malicious. I just think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Fuck, I mean, I'm a huge lesbo who also loves the word pussy. I understand the juxtaposition I'm asking people to discuss here. I just don't think it's fair to assume that men who have some sort of sex education are in the minority here y'know?

To be clear, I'm not calling anyone specifically out on sexism btw. I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but I think that best practice for a porn site is that which acknowledges potential sexism while holding its user base to a minimum standard of intelligence. Otherwise, what, we're catering to children?

donovan_dmc said:
I'm not sure how dealing with users relates to knowing anatomy. My duties don't include handling posts.

Fair enough, I'm sure you have plenty of experience dealing with the type of ignorance and stupidity this site can attract at least. Still, I hope most users could recognize like, elementary anatomy. Maybe that's putting too much faith in the American school system though lol.

as someone who is a woman too, i say yeah! i don't see the problem to reestablish every pussy tag to vulva. personally it was whatever, pussy tag exists, but comparing to more formal worded 'penis' to vulgar slang 'pussy' kind of deserves the overhaul.
on top of other things, why cock (obviously vague slang) is aliased to penis but not pussy to vulva is beyond me.

benjiboyo said:
it is concerning how female do outnumber male and yet... people lack info about the details of the female genitalia.

but hey i'm part of the problem, i'm too gay to want to learn female anatomy.

i assume this is a site predominantly composed of women-leaning men, tags like male/female and male_penetrating_female dominate over other gender relationship with 100k more posts than male/male and female/female is 6x times of that. reinstating that there are more men than women on this site, figuratively their words to describe female genitals be only either pussy and vagina, but pussy more because the site's language.

If this goes through, balls (the male homologue to the labia, funnily enough, or at least the scrotum is) will be the only remaining genitals tagged with slang. Should it also be changed to scrotum or, more likely, testicles?

I have to agree with ReinaYeen, Cloudpie, Faucet, Snake-Girl and probably a bunch of other people.

We really ought to change the terms over, the fact we have all the medical parts of the penis as tags, while vulva, vagina, and labia are aliased to "pussy" of all things is not only incredibly silly, it's genuinely pretty sexist, even if unintentionally so. I know if the roles were reversed and every part of the male genitalia was aliased to "cock" I'd be a little put off. It's also so bizarre that we have so many tags referencing the labia and vagina, but neither of the two proper medical terms are valid.

It's fine if "vagina" has to be aliased to vulva, we already have internal_vaginal and vaginal_canal for actual depictions of the (actual) vagina in specific.

vulpes_artifex said:
If this goes through, balls (the male homologue to the labia, funnily enough, or at least the scrotum is) will be the only remaining genitals tagged with slang. Should it also be changed to scrotum or, more likely, testicles?

I'd support it being changed to testicles, I think. Would make more sense on all the tags implying it than scrotum. Or, some that make more sense that way could be named scrotum (red_scrotum, fluffy_scrotum) and the rest named testicles (big_testicles, testicle_size_difference) with the main tag being named testicles. This is consistant with scrotal_raphe implying balls and not being named ball_raphe, so we do already do this a little bit.

donovan_dmc said:
Same here. Never had a biology lesson about humans or reproduction in general, so I never learned female anatomy. And now, I have no desire to learn it.

Gently encouraging you to learn. Women are half the population and I'm sure there are women in your life even if you're not attracted to them. You have or once had a mother, and you exist thanks to her female anatomy. You might have sisters or female cousins. Maybe you have female friends. They are people just like you and you'd be a better friend to them if you knew the basics about how their bodies work. I guarentee they know how your body works even if they're not attracted to men.

I promise it's not scary, lol. Just glance at a diagram or two

Also maybe we should add cum -> semen to the pipeline of potential huge tag name overhauls?

vulpes_artifex said:
If this goes through, balls (the male homologue to the labia, funnily enough, or at least the scrotum is) will be the only remaining genitals tagged with slang. Should it also be changed to scrotum or, more likely, testicles?

for the consistency of formal 'scrotum/testicles' over also vulgar slang 'balls', i don't think it will hurt to alias it too. since testicles are just inner of the scrotum, i think balls should be aliased to scrotum.

snake-girl said:
for the consistency of formal 'scrotum/testicles' over also vulgar slang 'balls', i don't think it will hurt to alias it too. since testicles are just inner of the scrotum, i think balls should be aliased to scrotum.

This would be ok as long as some other ball tags that are specifically referring to the testicles can still be named *_testicles. Like big_balls and uneven_balls

cloudpie said:
Also maybe we should add cum -> semen to the pipeline of potential huge tag name overhauls?

dictionary says that cum is also a vulgar slang, not to mention whether it's orgasm or fluids, so i can see it would be overhauled to semen instead.

reinayeen said:
Correct me if im assuming wrong, but I think you're being willfully obtuse. Of course the website is mostly male. Potentially mostly gay male. But assuming a forum is exclusively men, and using that to justify enforcing exclusionary practice, such as sexist language or reasoning is a web ethics discussion older than I am.

I don't think you're being malicious. I just think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Fuck, I mean, I'm a huge lesbo who also loves the word pussy. I understand the juxtaposition I'm asking people to discuss here. I just don't think it's fair to assume that men who have some sort of sex education are in the minority here y'know?

To be clear, I'm not calling anyone specifically out on sexism btw. I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but I think that best practice for a porn site is that which acknowledges potential sexism while holding its user base to a minimum standard of intelligence. Otherwise, what, we're catering to children?

... My sister in christ, I was pointing out the difference between global population versus what demographics consume the materials primarily hosted by this site as an explanation for the physiology knowledge/familiarity.

Most men are, unfortunately, going to be unfamiliar with feminine anatomy due to not having it themselves. Outside of medical/forensic fields it simply does not provide a meaningful benefit to the average man to know this, so most never bother learning beyond a gradeschool level, as that is entirely sufficient for most to live their entire lives with. It's like somebody born without legs learning how to put on a shoe, it's of no use to the individual, but certainly can be helpful in certain circumstances to others.

Men tend towards throwing information that is irrelevant/not useful into the mental recycling bin and go grubbing around if a niche situation arises for them where it might be useful in the moment, while filling the rest of the space with things that are either helpful to them, or of direct interest to them. To further complicate this, in years gone, with specific regards to feminine anatomy, this information was difficult to really acquire outside of medical fields in part due to educational issues (religious sect schools, generalised puritanism, opt-in sex ed, so on, so on). In the modern day, this issue is lessened both by a more sexually liberal world, and by access to the internet. That free access to information, however, does wind up being a double-edged sword, as it encourages a "why memorise things if I can just look them up" mentality.

I'd hesitate to call most of it willful or malicious, so much as the intersection of practicality and life experience.

That said, with regards to the topic at hand, so long as we manage to use "common enough" terminology, and/or robust aliases for more common terms that are viewed as undesirable/crass, by all means, I'm onboard. I'm not going to be able to directly help with pertinent retagging efforts, as that'd be a nightmare and a half and I'm still waiting for another project I did say I intended to help with (bodytype-sex systems), if it does go through and need work, but best of luck on that front once we get all the BURs to a satisfactory and mostly error/conflict-free state to begin the process.

votp […] Outside of medical/forensic fields it simply does not provide a meaningful benefit to the average man to know this, […]

uh?

The bulk update request #6279 has been rejected.

remove alias vulva (0) -> pussy (897500)
remove alias labia (0) -> pussy (897500)
remove alias semen (0) -> cum (691950)
remove alias testicle (0) -> balls (1061289)

Reason: Related to thread, seems like a good first step

EDIT: The bulk update request #6279 (forum #387570) has been rejected by @DimoretPinel.

Downvoting purely because I don't think either cum or balls need to change.

I like how this thread devolved into "men are dumb so don't change the tag". If you're a grown ass man looking at porn on e6, you can learn what a vulva is. +1 for tag change.

dimoretpinel said:
uh?

Man-thing have penis, man-thing no have vagina. Some man-thing become Doctor or Police who solve sex crimes. Most man-thing no think vagina thing need to know, because not useful to man-thing because man-thing no have. Man-thing doctor or sex crime investigator need know vagina, most man-thing learn extent man-thing need in school and not want follow up more learn-good because not have vagina. If man-thing no have hair, no need learn how to brush unless for other who have hair. Some have daughters, more important then. Most man-thing only need think of own body, no need think of other body, no important to most man-thing so most man-thing no bother learning. Grug hope very informative.

donovan_dmc said:
Downvoting purely because I don't think either cum or balls need to change.

agree.

especially cum, I don't think that semen is even a totally great synonym for what all cum is used for. something like ejaculate would likely be more fitting since it functions as a verb and noun interchangeably like cum, but like... ehhhh...

I think the actual dealias you want is remove alias testicles -> balls, since that's where balls will probably be aliased.

Also women's anatomy is not some sort of esoteric knowledge regardless of your own sex.

sipothac said:
agree.

especially cum, I don't think that semen is even a totally great synonym for what all cum is used for. something like ejaculate would likely be more fitting since it functions as a verb and noun interchangeably like cum, but like... ehhhh...

I mean, do we want non-slang terms or not? Those are slang terms.

vulpes_artifex said:
I think the actual dealias you want is remove alias testicles -> balls, since that's where balls will probably be aliased.

Also women's anatomy is not some sort of esoteric knowledge regardless of your own sex.

I mean, do we want non-slang terms or not? Those are slang terms.

Pick your poison.

sipothac said:
agree.

especially cum, I don't think that semen is even a totally great synonym for what all cum is used for. something like ejaculate would likely be more fitting since it functions as a verb and noun interchangeably like cum, but like... ehhhh...

Cum is both semen and sperm, it's a hell of a nitpick, but there is still a distinction

vulpes_artifex said:
I mean, do we want non-slang terms or not? Those are slang terms.

Slang terms are not entirely evil. If they can provide a clearer meaning, then their use is fine. What reason is there to upend either of cum or balls? Because they're "vulgar" slang terms? Look around, a shit ton of e621's content as a whole is vulgar. The initial point is this was changing pussy, which has legs to stand on due to it combining several anatomical features. The other two don't have that problem.

donovan_dmc said:
Downvoting purely because I don't think either cum or balls need to change.

Maybe not balls then, because I understand the scrotum/testicle distinction will need more thought and talk.
However, I believe unaliasing sperm can’t be a bad idea, even if it might seem a bit trivial.

I can edit it to only include vulva/labia, but it won’t reset the votes on it.
Slyroon (the one who did most approvals and rejections lately) might see them and think people disagree with it, even if it was edited to be in line with the general consensus of the thread.
Should I reject the BUR and re-make it?

dimoretpinel said:
The bulk update request #6279 has been rejected.

remove alias vulva (0) -> pussy (897500)
remove alias labia (0) -> pussy (897500)
remove alias semen (0) -> cum (691950)
remove alias testicle (0) -> balls (1061289)

Reason: Related to thread, seems like a good first step

Voted neutral just because it needs to be more organized than this. The pussy BURs, cum BURs, and balls BURs should probably each have their own threads, separate from this one. But I agree that all of them should be changed to the more proper language.

sipothac said:
I don't think that semen is even a totally great synonym for what all cum is used for.

Why?

sipothac said:
something like ejaculate would likely be more fitting since it functions as a verb and noun interchangeably like cum, but like... ehhhh...

Our tag for the verb is ejaculation. The cum tag is purely for the noun, so I don't see why that's an issue?

donovan_dmc said:
Cum is both semen and sperm, it's a hell of a nitpick, but there is still a distinction

Slang terms are not entirely evil. If they can provide a clearer meaning, then their use is fine. What reason is there to upend either of cum or balls? Because they're "vulgar" slang terms? Look around, a shit ton of e621's content as a whole is vulgar. The initial point is this was changing pussy, which has legs to stand on due to it combining several anatomical features. The other two don't have that problem.

Does sperm currently go to a disambiguation tag, on that note, due to the sperm_cell/cum/semen tagging confusion issues? I can't seem to find a listing for that tag in particular, but that might just be the interface being a bit... awkward to navigate.

I doubt this will change, ive asked for this for years and the result is always the same.

Im here for this tho and agree.

donovan_dmc said:
[…]
The initial point is this was changing pussy, which has legs to stand on due to it combining several anatomical features. The other two don't have that problem.
[…]

I don’t want to argue with a moderator.
-but-

Balls combine testicles and scrotum. I think testicles might be a good tag for when we have an xray view of the testes, just like for ovary.

We’re trying to make female anatomy more accurately descibed, so I don’t see the wrong doing a little bit of tweaking to have them equal.

Again, I understand tagging everything ball-related accurately will take some time and right now might not be the time to do it. It’s a little bit unrelated to the conversation anyway.
I’ll leave the balls as-is and focus on the pussy tags.

votp said:
Man-thing have penis, man-thing no have vagina. Some man-thing become Doctor or Police who solve sex crimes. Most man-thing no think vagina thing need to know, because not useful to man-thing because man-thing no have. Man-thing doctor or sex crime investigator need know vagina, most man-thing learn extent man-thing need in school and not want follow up more learn-good because not have vagina. If man-thing no have hair, no need learn how to brush unless for other who have hair. Some have daughters, more important then. Most man-thing only need think of own body, no need think of other body, no important to most man-thing so most man-thing no bother learning. Grug hope very informative.

I don't have a penis and yet I somehow have the brain cells to look at a diagram of the male reproductive system and retain the information, because half of my fellow human beings are men. I can't imagine caring so little about my boyfriend, father, hypothetical brothers, my uncles and male cousins, of course all my male friends, and every other man in this world that I'd have no interest in learning about how their bodies are different from mine and how that effects their lives and experiences.

I do agree with changing the term pussy – it does feel weirdly sexist.
To me, it calls back to the times when e6 used terms like dickgirl as tags.

In my opinion, it's better to be weirdly medical about tags than to be sexist.
Still, I'd prefer to have one umbrella tag with same meaning that pussy currently has.
It's primarily for the sake of user-friendliness: if a user wants to see feminine genitalia, they should be able to find those with one reasonably intuitive tag.

dimoretpinel said:
I can edit it to only include vulva/labia, but it won’t reset the votes on it.
Slyroon (the one who did most approvals and rejections lately) might see them and think people disagree with it, even if it was edited to be in line with the general consensus of the thread.
Should I reject the BUR and re-make it?

Actually I think it’s already getting lost and drowned out by the heated conversation anyway, so I’ll just make that a separated thread.

The bulk update request #6279 (forum #387570) has been rejected by @DimoretPinel.

cinder said:
Still, I'd prefer to have one umbrella tag with same meaning that pussy currently has.

We aren't supposed to tag pussy when only the vaginal_canal is visible (like an internal shot), correct? that's why vaginal_canal doesn't imply pussy?
If that's the case, then I think pussy genuinely does quite literally mean vulva. The vulva includes all the parts that our pussy tag does: the outer lips, inner lips, and vaginal opening.

cloudpie said:
I don't have a penis and yet I somehow have the brain cells to look at a diagram of the male reproductive system and retain the information, because half of my fellow human beings are men. I can't imagine caring so little about my boyfriend, father, hypothetical brothers, my uncles and male cousins, of course all my male friends, and every other man in this world that I'd have no interest in learning about how their bodies are different from mine and how that effects their lives and experiences.

This topic is getting spicy. There is no need for that.
Be nice to your fellow users.

My opinion on this topic is that the tags need to be user friendly and intuitive. We may need to get creative if we want to replace pussy (a well known term for female bits) with something else. Vulva is not nearly as well known (it is what it is on that) so it's not as easy as carrying the tag over to it.

cloudpie said:
We aren't supposed to tag pussy when only the vaginal_canal is visible (like an internal shot), correct? that's why vaginal_canal doesn't imply pussy?
If that's the case, then I think pussy genuinely does quite literally mean vulva. The vulva includes all the parts that our pussy tag does: the outer lips, inner lips, and vaginal opening.

With massive tags like this, there is always a difference between how tags are supposed to be used, and how they are actually used.
Just take my word on this one: people will keep tagging all of these on pretty much any post that contains any feminine genitalia.

Yes, that includes pics with internal views of the vaginal canal, and nothing else. Just search internal pussy, you'll spot a couple immediately.

Fighting stuff like this is moderately pointless. No matter how many times mistaggings get fixed, or how many records get handed out, there will still be more.
The best approach is to direct the most common tags to the broadest possible definition, and leave more precise tags to dedicated users who are interested in keeping those tags maintained.

rainbow_dash said:
My opinion on this topic is that the tags need to be user friendly and intuitive. We may need to get creative if we want to replace pussy (a well known term for female bits) with something else. Vulva is not nearly as well known (it is what it is on that) so it's not as easy as carrying the tag over to it.

Honestly, I'd just go with vagina.
Even if it's technically not the right term here.

donovan_dmc said:
Cum is both semen and sperm, it's a hell of a nitpick, but there is still a distinction

well, for our purposes it's also a more general term, since it'd apply to any kind of ejaculate, be that semen or lava. because remember, we have characters with weird anatomies on here.

cloudpie said:
I don't have a penis and yet I somehow have the brain cells to look at a diagram of the male reproductive system and retain the information, because half of my fellow human beings are men. I can't imagine caring so little about my boyfriend, father, hypothetical brothers, my uncles and male cousins, of course all my male friends, and every other man in this world that I'd have no interest in learning about how their bodies are different from mine and how that effects their lives and experiences.

Not all brains work the same way, not all people share the same interests. If you went out into public with an anatomical diagram of the penis or the vagina and randomly selected men and women of varying age groups, professions, national/ethnic origins, faiths, so on, and asked them to identify the individual components, unlabelled, by pointing at them, it is an unfortunate reality that most of both primary groups (male/female) would likely struggle with the task, with trackable correlation between the secondary and tertiary groups. This is actually a study that should probably be done to assess sexual education, and I imagine probably already has, though being 01:00 at the time of writing, mental processing to think of what to search for to find that data is a bit lacking at the moment.

Your life experiences, your mind's ability to retain certain knowledge, or to assert that certain knowledge is important/worth retaining, is not universally-applicable to all human beings. I'd... actually go so far as to say most people probably don't think all that much about genitalia unless something is actively amiss with their own, or it's being used for comedy. It is unfortunate, but while we would like to think that how we think, what we deem important, is thought and held as important by everyone else, that is rarely the case. In the case of this particular topic, you have a double issue of the above "usefulness/relevance" filter (how much about ancient egypt can you remember from school?) and the initial education in the subject matter to begin with, or the subsequent interest after adulthood/freedom to learn on one's own terms, to seek out and do so and to have the time for that. There are a very wide range of factors that contribute to this scenario.

rainbow_dash said:
This topic is getting spicy. There is no need for that.
Be nice to your fellow users.

Apologies. VoTP, you're right about the fact that many people just don't know, and it is what it is. I'm not going to argue about that part anymore.

rainbow_dash said:
My opinion on this topic is that the tags need to be user friendly and intuitive. We may need to get creative if we want to replace pussy (a well known term for female bits) with something else. Vulva is not nearly as well known (it is what it is on that) so it's not as easy as carrying the tag over to it.

We invented new words for gynomorph and andromorph though, and people learned those fast - my thought is that people would learn similarly quickly if pussy was aliased to vulva

Maybe the best thing to do is to alias 'pussy' to 'vulva,' and have all the tags that alias to pussy aliased to 'vulva' or something else on a case-by-case basis. Maybe add something like a 'vagina*' tag that refers to the entire reproductive system (inaccurate as that may be)? Then 'vulva' could implicate that tag. It's less accurate than I'd like but I'd accept that as a suitable middle ground if the way people tag posts is unreliable as Cinder said.
I still think more discussion is needed. This is just my current proposal.
*just a placeholder. I think we should come up with a more accurate term.

on the topic of dividing cum into semen and sperm. I would just like to add that the sperm_cell tag exists for a reason.

if cum would be aliased to a less slangy term, semen will probably be my vote

cloudpie said:
Hell yes!!!! It is absolutely time for this. As a woman I honestly do feel this is (unintentionally) sexist and it really bothers me. I'll see if I can start a BUR soon, if nobody else gets to it first.

wait wait wait

I already did this. Like, two years ago we had a thread very much akin to this one (I could probably go dig it up for context) and I decided I would take it upon myself to write the massive BUR to change pussy to vulva. I wrote something like 40 separate BURs for it (due to the 25/per limit), though I never finished it. Still had several more to go. But I already wrote most of it, and I’m pretty sure I still have the text file on my hard drive somewhere. Let me save you the effort (and not let my previous effort go to waste) and finish it rather than anyone else making a BUR for this.

tl;dr I’m 100% in support, vulva is already a more accurate term for what we’re trying to tag, and we’re gonna kill pussy_juice too, while we’re at it, because that one just sounds gross

scaliespe said:
tl;dr I’m 100% in support, vulva is already a more accurate term for what we’re trying to tag, and we’re gonna kill pussy_juice too, while we’re at it, because that one just sounds gross

But where else will I get that SMOOTH and REFRESHING flavour? CRISP without being BITTER? Pussy Juice is the Quenchiest!

votp said:
But where else will I get that SMOOTH and REFRESHING flavour? CRISP without being BITTER? Pussy Juice is the Quenchiest!

https://i.imgflip.com/3ct90z.jpg

scaliespe said:
wait wait wait

I already did this. Like, two years ago we had a thread very much akin to this one (I could probably go dig it up for context) and I decided I would take it upon myself to write the massive BUR to change pussy to vulva. I wrote something like 40 separate BURs for it (due to the 25/per limit), though I never finished it. Still had several more to go. But I already wrote most of it, and I’m pretty sure I still have the text file on my hard drive somewhere. Let me save you the effort (and not let my previous effort go to waste) and finish it rather than anyone else making a BUR for this.

tl;dr I’m 100% in support, vulva is already a more accurate term for what we’re trying to tag, and we’re gonna kill pussy_juice too, while we’re at it, because that one just sounds gross

Spe you're a lifesaver!
I hadn't started yet due to real-life stuff. Can help you continue it if you'd like

scaliespe said:
and we’re gonna kill pussy_juice too, while we’re at it, because that one just sounds gross

Please!
Will it be changed to vaginal_discharge or vaginal_lubrication or?

cloudpie said:
Please!
Will it be changed to vaginal_discharge or vaginal_lubrication or?

Derpibooru uses vaginal_secretions tag. Would that be too vulgar or vague?

drato said:
Derpibooru uses vaginal_secretions tag. Would that be too vulgar or vague?

Vaginal discharge is the most correct term but it refers to any kind of discharge, not just the arousal kind. I don't think there is one singular correct name for specifically the arousal-caused clear discharge. Besides just "discharge" I've seen "vaginal lubrication" and "arousal fluid" most often (in clinical/scientific sources) but there's probably other terms too. "Vaginal secretions" is ok I guess but I feel like that's about the same meaning as vaginal discharge, where it could refer to any type of discharge/secretions, and if it's between those two then I'd personally prefer discharge since it's the more widely used term.

cloudpie said:
Hell yes!!!! It is absolutely time for this. As a woman I honestly do feel this is (unintentionally) sexist and it really bothers me. I'll see if I can start a BUR soon, if nobody else gets to it first.

God I fucking hate this so much. Every english-speaking adult should know basic anatomical terms. I'm sure they know all the equivalent male anatomical terms.
It's 2024 and women aren't some mystical other species.

It's because we have laws in the US that allows for states to forbid schools from teaching even the most basic sex ed.

Tag should change tho. But. This is better off done in the thread that has the updated request.

cloudpie said:
Apologies. VoTP, you're right about the fact that many people just don't know, and it is what it is. I'm not going to argue about that part anymore.

We invented new words for gynomorph and andromorph though, and people learned those fast - my thought is that people would learn similarly quickly if pussy was aliased to vulva

The difference here is that dickgirl and cuntboy were incredibly vulgar, and more importantly, are so very niche to our part of the internet. But this is an entirely different beast. A very large number of regular joe users have no idea what a vulva is, or incorrectly assume it to be the clit, or labia or something else entirely. I'm not disagreeing that we should change it, but going to vulva (despite it being accurate) may be a losing battle for tagging ease of use, and that is ultimately more important. Perhaps vagina would be a good compromise. People can easily interpret female genitals = vagina.

cloudpie said:
Hell yes!!!! It is absolutely time for this. As a woman I honestly do feel this is (unintentionally) sexist and it really bothers me. I'll see if I can start a BUR soon, if nobody else gets to it first.

God I fucking hate this so much. Every english-speaking adult should know basic anatomical terms. I'm sure they know all the equivalent male anatomical terms.
It's 2024 and women aren't some mystical other species.

It's 2024 and sex ed in America still sucks. Women are still regarded as another mystical species that doesn't poop, will explode into glass if we open a door, and have unmentionable bits. Is it sexist? Unfortunately it is what it is, trickled down from society. Will I hold the userbase to a 5th degree education level? If that's what people are expecting to find when they search, then sometimes it happens to be that way. We need a tag that people know to use. We can abandon pussy, but vulva might be too much of a leap for people to make, as sad as that is. I would vote for vagina, and to align it with the other tags we already use vaginal with.

A quick aside - 99% of the time I hear or use the "vaginal discharge" it's in relation to blood and nothing fun. Vaginal fluids or vaginal secretion would likely be more apt.

rainbow_dash said:
The difference here is that dickgirl and cuntboy were incredibly vulgar, and more importantly, are so very niche to our part of the internet. But this is an entirely different beast. A very large number of regular joe users have no idea what a vulva is, or incorrectly assume it to be the clit, or labia or something else entirely. I'm not disagreeing that we should change it, but going to vulva (despite it being accurate) may be a losing battle for tagging ease of use, and that is ultimately more important. Perhaps vagina would be a good compromise. People can easily interpret female genitals = vagina.

I see what you mean, and sure vagina would probably be a good compromise.
I'd like to add though that we have the opportunity to teach a large number of people what the word vulva means. I do think they'd get it pretty much instantly when they notice pussy or vagina (I do think we should keep vagina aliased for the same reasons you've said) aliasing to vulva, and if they prefer, then they could simply go on searching with and tagging "pussy" instead like they might already do with "dickgirl" since they're aliased.

rainbow_dash said:
A quick aside - 99% of the time I hear or use the "vaginal discharge" it's in relation to blood and nothing fun. Vaginal fluids or vaginal secretion would likely be more apt.

Vaginal_fluids sounds good to me