The tag implication #64339 paggi_outfit -> meme_clothing has been approved.

Reason: yet another clothing meme

EDIT: The tag implication paggi_outfit -> meme_clothing (forum #414664) has been approved by @spe.

An outfit consisting of a pink and grey-black cropped hoodie, grey-black underwear with a print of a pink skull, and thigh highs.

Origin: On July 13, 2024, artist paggi posted a tweet with an image that reads "draw your oc wearing nothing but this", with an arrow pointing to the outfit.

An outfit that's nothing special that someone wanted others to draw less than a weak ago. Doesn't seem worthy to call a meme to me, without the term being taken so loosely as to be pointlessly broad.

watsit said:
An outfit that's nothing special that someone wanted others to draw less than a weak ago. Doesn't seem worthy to call a meme to me, without the term being taken so loosely as to be pointlessly broad.

compared to string jumpsuit and fat hoodie that imply meme clothing and have only 2-digit entries, i argue that it has warranty of implying it if these can do. the outfit is a meme by definition of spread and being drawn by people collectively from the original subject.

snake-girl said:
the outfit is a meme by definition of spread and being drawn by people collectively from the original subject.

Hence "the term being taken so loosely as to be pointlessly broad." A hoodie is a meme by this metric. A bikini is if someone got others to draw their characters in one. I'm not a fan of how readily the "meme" tag is slapped on things, making it lose its utility. There should be more to a meme (and meme clothing especially) beyond being something someone got other people to draw a bit. If I'm looking for memes, I'm looking for something funny and/or thoughtful and wide-spread, not someone's general sense of fashion.

watsit said:
Hence "the term being taken so loosely as to be pointlessly broad." A hoodie is a meme by this metric. A bikini is if someone got others to draw their characters in one. I'm not a fan of how readily the "meme" tag is slapped on things, making it lose its utility. There should be more to a meme (and meme clothing especially) beyond being something someone got other people to draw a bit. If I'm looking for memes, I'm looking for something funny and/or thoughtful and wide-spread, not someone's general sense of fashion.

anything humorous or how thoughtful it is doesn't constitute a meme, again it was always been defined to be copied and spread of the subject matter with different twist and variations. the pagi outfit is just an equivalent of gris swimsuit (which has its own know your meme page), essentially changing the original character of the subject with anything else, can be humorous or not though it doesn't affect being meme for that matter.

someone can make a peter griffin with most thoughtful and funny punchline, albeit someone can slap it as "meme", it isn't objectively a meme - it's just a (subjectively) humorous image unless anyone took it, replicate via changing character or dialogue, and change a bit, then it becomes a meme. whether it doesn't meet your expectation of being meme because it's not funny or thoughtful doesn't really negate being a meme.

snake-girl said:
anything humorous or how thoughtful it is doesn't constitute a meme, again it was always been defined to be copied and spread of the subject matter with different twist and variations.

Isn't every copyright a meme then?

anicebee said:
Isn't every copyright a meme then?

Not exactly, Dood!
◠‿╹)~★

The point Snake-girl was making is that the 'Copyright' in
this sense was more or less spread collectively and publicly.

Copyright implies that a single person has ownership,
Bowser for example is drawn by a lot of peeps in super unique ways!
post #4865689 | post #4605924 | post #4805805

I've even doodled him! ◠‿◠)~★
post #4623045
Meme, right? Nah~ While peeps doodle 'em, he is firmly owned by Nintendo.
So Copyright and please don't sue us, Dood ╹‿╹)~★

Buuuuut~
if everyone and no one has equal ownership to the idea,
Like say piper_perri_surrounded
post #4354053 | post #4179409

or the star of the week and topic of discussion paggi_outfit
post #4923170 | post #4922600

A trend passed around person to person, that do have origins but no clear ownership or trademark
in any legal sense or offered freely with "Draw your character wearing x" biz. It's a meme, Dood!

paggi_outfit is totally a meme in and of it's self.
It belongs in the Meme_clothing category, Dood =‿=)

Plus, adding it to "meme Clothing" will auto-add Meme,
making for a really nice cascade, Dood~! ╹‿╹)

notkastar said:
A trend passed around person to person, that do have origins but no clear ownership or trademark
in any legal sense or offered freely with "Draw your character wearing x" biz. It's a meme, Dood!

So fakemon would be a meme, as they're creatures with origins but no clear ownership/trademark? Christmas, halloween, etc too? And Bowsette wouldn't be a meme since it's based on a character owned by Nintendo?

watsit said:
So fakemon would be a meme, as they're creatures with origins but no clear ownership/trademark? Christmas, halloween, etc too? And Bowsette wouldn't be a meme since it's based on a character owned by Nintendo?

Some fakemons are definitely memes, like that lopunny-vaporeon fusion.

Christmas and Halloween are days so they don’t count.

While Bowsette is based on Bowser, Nintendo doesn’t own her, so she’s not under copyright.

dimoretpinel said:
Some fakemons are definitely memes, like that lopunny-vaporeon fusion.

lopunny-vaporeon wouldn't be, since it's a hybrid of existing pokemon and thus owned by TPC. It doesn't even classify as a fakemon, since it's just a fusion of existing pokemon. Ones like faunazon are more unique creations to be classified as a fakemon, unique enough to not owned by TPC, and thus would qualify by this standard despite being a regular fantasy animal species in all regards.

dimoretpinel said:
Christmas and Halloween are days so they don’t count.

Days can be memes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day

dimoretpinel said:
While Bowsette is based on Bowser, Nintendo doesn’t own her, so she’s not under copyright.

It's a combination of Bowser, Toadette, and Princess Peach. There's no way Nintendo wouldn't assert control over it if they had desire to.

watsit said:
So fakemon would be a meme, as they're creatures with origins but no clear ownership/trademark? Christmas, halloween, etc too? And Bowsette wouldn't be a meme since it's based on a character owned by Nintendo?

Not exactly, Dood!
◠‿◠)~★

Pre-Debacle SCP would also be a great example of the big and ever-looming-

★Grey Area of Meme and Story★

Waaaaaay~ Smarter peeps than me have spent years trying to
explain something that by its nature has no documentation.
It's more or less a logical Axiom that:

"No one can explain what a meme is, but Everyone knows what they are."

"Family Guy Death Pose"
post #4922574
Meme

"Christmas"
post #2264832
Not a Meme

Why?
I don't know but I also can't exactly explain the proof that 1+1=2
or the idea of happiness, sadness, or the colors blue or red. But I know
what they are, ya know, Dood? ◠‿╹)~★
post #4865821 | post #4905901

So any point I can make on the point above breaks down into semantics and nothing concrete.
More of explaining how I feel really. which is really neat when you get down to it since the concept
of memes are actually pretty wonky if you think about it! Nothing makes sense on paper when you
try to write it down, memes on paper are History by definition but aren't in practice!

"An idea or practice passed around from culture to culture." (History.)

"An adaptation of an existing practice, Practiced by others." (History, Right?)

"A Celebrated Time or day in one culture that is widely practiced by others
originating from this time of this date-" (Peep, Are we talking history or mythology?)

Yeah yeah yeah, Blah blah blah~★

Summed up, Don't overthink it since memes are more of a feeling than anything on paper
and this be a meme. I feel it in my bones, Dood =‿=)
post #4490888

notkastar said:
Pre-Debacle SCP would also be a great example of the big and ever-looming-

"Grey Area"

of Meme and Story~!

Waaaaaay~ Smarter peeps than me have spent years trying to
explaining something that by its nature has no documentation.
It's more or less a logical Axiom that:

"No one can explain what a meme is, but Everyone knows what they are."

But everyone seems to have a different idea of what they are, which goes to my point. No one can really say what a meme is, and people will argue over whether certain things are a meme. No clear definition can be made, so there's no guideline for what it should apply to.

IMO, the way it's being loosely applied anything someone likes that's been drawn a few times is way overdoing it, making the tag useless as it's applied to a bunch of things that various people wouldn't call a meme. It would be better to apply it more strictly, things that can be more readily agreed upon as a meme and have longer lasting cultural relevance, rather than general flash-in-the-pan trends among a handful of people that are little more than someone's fashion statement.

notkastar said:
A trend passed around person to person, that do have origins but no clear ownership or trademark
in any legal sense or offered freely with "Draw your character wearing x" biz. It's a meme, Dood!

All concepts unique enough that also have a known origin are automatically copyrighted under US law, though. Even if the owner is anonymous. And even if the posts are under Fair Use (which most posts are, due to a transformative aspect or lack of effect on the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work), the fact that it is Fair Use must acknowledge that there is use of a copyrighted work.

watsit said:
But everyone seems to have a different idea of what they are, which goes to my point. No one can really say what a meme is, and people will argue over whether certain things are a meme. No clear definition can be made, so there's no guideline for what it should apply to.

IMO, the way it's being loosely applied anything someone likes that's been drawn a few times is way overdoing it, making the tag useless as it's applied to a bunch of things that various people wouldn't call a meme. It would be better to apply it more strictly, things that can be more readily agreed upon as a meme and have longer lasting cultural relevance, rather than general flash-in-the-pan trends among a handful of people that are little more than someone's fashion statement.

But Peeeeeeep~★
"General flash-in-the-pan trends among a handful of people that are little more than someone's fashion statement."
Are what memes can be too, Dood~!

My stance is:
We should play it safe and if there's a tidal wave of pieces coming in of the same thing being posted every minute or
so, we should set up the swales of tags now instead of waiting till we're completely flooded to see if this is a change
of the climate or a flash flood since they both behave as memes, in either case, Dood!
╹‿╹)

anicebee said:
All concepts unique enough that also have a known origin are automatically copyrighted under US law, though. Even if the owner is anonymous. And even if the posts are under Fair Use (which most posts are, due to a transformative aspect or lack of effect on the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work), the fact that it is Fair Use must acknowledge that there is use of a copyrighted work.

In a legal sense, You're spot on!
◠‿╹)~★

technically all memes are copyrighted if they originated in the United States!
So the family guy peeps would totally be legally stable if they tried to enforce
their ownership of the Death Pose idea~! But in practice...it's a meme, that
wouldn't and couldn't practically be done. It'd be the Streisand effect in
Blitz Ace Overdrive, Dood =‿=;)

Another one into the grey area,

Info that can be used and has an origin that can be traced back and
theoretically enforced but, can't practically be done due to how widespread it is.

it's a hallmark of a meme but also most holidays and celebration practices, Dood
╹‿╹)

notkastar said:
technically all memes are copyrighted if they originated in the United States!
So the family guy peeps would totally be legally stable if they tried to enforce
their ownership of the Death Pose idea~! But in practice...it's a meme, that
wouldn't and couldn't practically be done. It'd be the Streisand effect in
Blitz Ace Overdrive, Dood =‿=;)

It would also be impractical for Nintendo to try and remove every piece of fan-art of their IPs that can be found publicly. Does that make them memes?

No- look, maybe we should get the convo back onto the paggi outfit?

notkastar said:
But Peeeeeeep~★
"General flash-in-the-pan trends among a handful of people that are little more than someone's fashion statement."
Are what memes can be too, Dood~!

Anything can be considered a meme if you want it to be. Like I said earlier, a plain old hoodie can be a meme by some metric. Or a bikini. Any ordinary thing can be a meme. But if anything could be tagged meme, why tag it at all? There needs to be some well-defined constraint or else it becomes pointless.

IMO, a meme should stand on its own as a meme. If it can be depicted unironically without following the meme, or if it existed prior to becoming a meme, it shouldn't count. Slapping meme on something someone drew without knowledge of its existence as a meme, and thus didn't intend as a meme, just comes across as incredibly disrespectful, to me. Like tagging humor on something someone intended to be serious and thought-provoking, it's rude.

dimoretpinel said:
No- look, maybe we should get the convo back onto the paggi outfit?

This is related. The request is for the paggi outfit to be classified as a meme/meme clothing. I think it shouldn't be, as it's at the very least too soon to be considered a meme (only a week old), but also appears to be looking at the meme tag too loosely, which gets us into where the line should be for what constitutes a meme. Where that line is will determine what to do with the paggi outfit.

anicebee said:
It would also be impractical for Nintendo to try and remove every piece of fan-art of their IPs that can be found publicly. Does that make them memes?

Depends,
T‿T) What peep are we talking about~?

Hahaha~★
◠‿◠)

╹‿╹)
But in all seriousness, What you asking me to explain
"What is and isn't a meme" is something that can't be
defined. Like what is happiness, Dood.

notkastar said:
Waaaaaay~ Smarter peeps than me have spent years trying to
explain something that by its nature has no documentation.
It's more or less a logical Axiom that:

"No one can explain what a meme is, but Everyone knows what they are."

"Family Guy Death Pose"
post #4922574
Meme

"Christmas"
post #2264832
Not a Meme

Why?
I don't know but I also can't exactly explain the proof that 1+1=2
or the idea of happiness, sadness, or the colors blue or red. But I know
what they are, ya know, Dood? ◠‿╹)~★
post #4865821 | post #4905901

And to me, Happiness is finding stability in your life,
Joy in what you do and interesting peeps to talk too, Dood~!
◠‿╹)~★

is stuff like scp_foundation or fluffy_pony a meme? just like, anything that's owned by "the internet".

watsit said:
Anything can be considered a meme if you want it to be. Like I said earlier, a plain old hoodie can be a meme by some metric. Or a bikini. Any ordinary thing can be a meme. But if anything could be tagged meme, why tag it at all? There needs to be some well-defined constraint or else it becomes pointless.

IMO, a meme should stand on its own as a meme. If it can be depicted unironically without following the meme, or if it existed prior to becoming a meme, it shouldn't count. Slapping meme on something someone drew without knowledge of its existence as a meme, and thus didn't intend as a meme, just comes across as incredibly disrespectful, to me. Like tagging humor on something someone intended to be serious and thought-provoking, it's rude.

Hey, I don't make the rules and rules really can't be made or it
becomes something new entirely and not a meme, Dood. ╹‿╹)

dimoretpinel said:
No- look, maybe we should get the convo back onto the paggi outfit?

And Ah! Sorry about that, Guess I'll get rolling back
to the to-do list before I confuzzle biz more!

Sorry about that m8s, Please continue with your convo!
Notkastar Out, Dood! ◠‿╹)~★

notkastar said:
But in all seriousness, What you asking me to explain
"What is and isn't a meme" is something that can't be
defined. Like what is happiness, Dood.

So, the tag shouldn't exist on this site.

anicebee said:
So, the tag shouldn't exist on this site.

without strict definitions of what is and is not a meme, honestly...

anicebee said:
So, the tag shouldn't exist on this site.

dba_afish said:
without strict definitions of what is and is not a meme, honestly...

There certainly are people who find use from meme for searching and blacklisting, but as Watsit said:

watsit said:
But everyone seems to have a different idea of what they are, which goes to my point. No one can really say what a meme is, and people will argue over whether certain things are a meme. No clear definition can be made, so there's no guideline for what it should apply to.

notkastar said:
^{Nahhh~ It has as much of a reason to be here as the Emotion-type and Color-type tags have a reason too, Dood~! ◠‿╹)~★}

the big difference there is that we don't have a tag that's just emotions.

watsit said:
This is related. The request is for the paggi outfit to be classified as a meme/meme clothing. I think it shouldn't be, as it's at the very least too soon to be considered a meme (only a week old), but also appears to be looking at the meme tag too loosely, which gets us into where the line should be for what constitutes a meme. Where that line is will determine what to do with the paggi outfit.

Seems a lot more against the meme clothing tag than paggi outfit.

There’s already precedent of outfits which are often redrawn on different characters implying meme clothing. We don’t need to discuss where "the line" is for this implication because it’s already been talked about plenty of times.

dba_afish said:
the big difference there is that we don't have a tag that's just emotions.

I'm sorry, dimoretpinel,
One more than it's out, Cold turkey.
o‿o;)

Not exactly, Dood~!

Memes are kind of a special case of Cultural Color!
Just like Joy or Yellow
post #4881341
Yellow_theme

Meme is a Cultural color, Like Holidays and Celebrations!
You can't explain what is and isn't a holiday at its core
Since any day can be a holiday. But, we still tag hallmarks
like the dressed-up tree and lights as Christmas because
those things are "Christmas things."
post #4495207

Why isn't a tiger a Christmas thing?
post #2327242 | post #4540125

Because we said it wasn't. It's really up in the air but
it's widely accepted so not a Christmas things. unless
a lot of people say it is.

Same for memes and the paggi_outfit!
post #4931984
Woooo~ Full circle! Back on topic before I go, Dood!
◠‿╹)~★

anicebee said:
There certainly are people who find use from meme for searching and blacklisting, but as Watsit said:

I have, in the past, tried to formulate subcategories for meme that make it easier to decide what should be implied. but it never really went anywhere. although it doesn't really solve the problem of meme_clothing being fairly loosely defined, and I'm not sure where we'd even really start...

dimoretpinel said:
Seems a lot more against the meme clothing tag than paggi outfit.

I don't have a problem with the meme clothing tag itself, just it's overuse. Stuff like the virgin_killer_sweater or gris_swimsuit work fine for it; the concept of the clothing itself is rather ridiculous, it's not just someone's fashion sense, but the design of the clothing is unmistakably meme-ish. However, trying to apply it to that hollow-hipped dress, which existed before becoming a meme and is an otherwise unremarkable, if pretty, dress, or this paggi outfit which is an otherwise unremarkable set of clothes, is stretching the tag too thin, and at that point there's a problem with the tag.

If we were to apply it to these things, what would be the difference between meme_clothing and trendy clothing? Why shouldn't meme_clothing be aliased to trendy_clothing?

dimoretpinel said:
We don’t need to discuss where "the line" is for this implication because it’s already been talked about plenty of times.

But no answer has been given, so it's still a relevant question for whether this implication is good or not.

watsit said:
I don't have a problem with the meme clothing tag itself, just it's overuse. Stuff like the virgin_killer_sweater or gris_swimsuit work fine for it; the concept of the clothing itself is rather ridiculous, it's not just someone's fashion sense, but the design of the clothing is unmistakably meme-ish. However, trying to apply it to that hollow-hipped dress, which existed before becoming a meme and is an otherwise unremarkable, if pretty, dress, or this paggi outfit which is an otherwise unremarkable set of clothes, is stretching the tag too thin, and at that point there's a problem with the tag.

If we were to apply it to these things, what would be the difference between meme_clothing and trendy clothing? Why shouldn't meme_clothing be aliased to trendy_clothing?

But no answer has been given, so it's still a relevant question for whether this implication is good or not.

also existed as a product before being meme'd I believe.

anicebee said:
virgin_killer_sweater also existed as a product before being meme'd I believe.

It existed before its spread on Twitter, yeah. But from what I can find, it was always meant to be an abnormal and erotic piece of clothing meant to catch attention.

I figure people use meme_clothing because people call these 'outfit memes'. Plenty of internet memes are short lived and very community specific. 'Meme' has a pretty loose definition.

I feel like the most important questions here are a) would anyone want to find this thing and b) what terms would they use to find it if they didn't know the actual name? Which, it looks like the answers are 'yes' and 'meme_clothing'.

regsmutt said:
I feel like the most important questions here are a) would anyone want to find this thing and b) what terms would they use to find it if they didn't know the actual name? Which, it looks like the answers are 'yes' and 'meme_clothing'.

I don't have much of a problem tagging the outfit itself. But I don't think "meme clothing" is a good term for anyone to find any one specific outfit that was a bit trendy once, especially if it's not the latest trend (trying to find any specific outfit using meme_clothing would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, you'd be better off searching for the particular articles of clothing, or a particular image you remember having it).

So is the problem just with calling it a "meme"? Would it be better to call it 'clothing trend' or something instead?
Then again, a meme basically is just another word for a trend. I worry that a name like "clothing trend" would sound like it applies to real-life fashion trends, like emo. At this point I feel like it would be easier to just call paggi_outfit a meme and be done with it. I don't think memes necessarily need to be humorous, just these sort of highly specific flash trends.

spe said:
So is the problem just with calling it a "meme"? Would it be better to call it 'clothing trend' or something instead?

I don't think that's really worth tagging. A trend, definitionally, is time-limited. What's a trend today won't be tomorrow, and something can become a trend no matter how long it has existed prior. Tagging it for anything that was ever a trend at any point would be a lot of, if not most, things, which I don't see being useful.

The tag implication paggi_outfit -> meme_clothing (forum #414664) has been approved by @spe.