I want to blacklist pony, I'm not one of those shitposters that say get rid of pony, I want to take the mature route and blacklist things I don't want to see.

The problem is, it's become such a huge fad that you can't take a step outside of google without seeing 1000 pictures of it, and little cameos of the characters showing up.

I am all ready to blacklist things I don't want to see, but if I were to blacklist pony, I wouldn't see one of my to date favourite pictures:

http://e621.net/post/show/152725

Since pony is literally half of the front page every day, could it be possible to get a tag to describe pictures referring specifically to the show, so as to filter out things that are strictly pony, but not to remove things just with cameos?

I know it would be a huuuuuuuuuuuge pain in the ass to maintain, but I'm sure a lot of us can agree and be very mature about not wanting to see pony, while still maintaining the freedom to choose whether or not a cameo will ruin an otherwise good picture.

Please keep discussions civil, I'm only trying to meet the pony community half way.

PhrozenFox said:
I want to blacklist pony, I'm not one of those shitposters that say get rid of pony, I want to take the mature route and blacklist things I don't want to see.

The problem is, it's become such a huge fad that you can't take a step outside of google without seeing 1000 pictures of it, and little cameos of the characters showing up.

I am all ready to blacklist things I don't want to see, but if I were to blacklist pony, I wouldn't see one of my to date favourite pictures:

http://e621.net/post/show/152725

Since pony is literally half of the front page every day, could it be possible to get a tag to describe pictures referring specifically to the show, so as to filter out things that are strictly pony, but not to remove things just with cameos?

I know it would be a huuuuuuuuuuuge pain in the ass to maintain, but I'm sure a lot of us can agree and be very mature about not wanting to see pony, while still maintaining the freedom to choose whether or not a cameo will ruin an otherwise good picture.

Please keep discussions civil, I'm only trying to meet the pony community half way.

Sorry, no can do little buddy, that would break our tagging system! You'll have to blacklist My_Little_Pony and accept all things MLP are blacklisted, or just tough it out in the trenches for those "Diamonds in the Rough."

Princess_Celestia said:
Sorry, no can do little buddy, that would break our tagging system! You'll have to blacklist My_Little_Pony and accept all things MLP are blacklisted, or just tough it out in the trenches for those "Diamonds in the Rough."

It's like you're not even trying though, and coming from a ponyfan I can understand, but I have a total mental block for ponystuff.

When I see it I just remember all the shitposting on 4chan and the general smug attitude I see from ponyfans elsewhere, it really bothers my experience.

Absolutely no way you can enforce a rule where series name can only be posted if the picture relates directly to the series? Like if it was set in equestria, or there was character relation, I can take a cameo or two but the thing as a whole just bothers me.

I'm really trying not to be ungrateful, I've said some shit but I like this site and this dilemma is really bothering me. I'll be free to search normally (other than the people who suck at tagging, of course), but I'll know deep in that 300th palcomix post, I'm missing a real gem because somebody photoshopped a 15x15 rainbow dash into their signature.

Download the picture into your computer. That way it stays with you and you can blacklist MLP.

Brightwater said:
Download the picture into your computer. That way it stays with you and you can blacklist MLP.

Please try to comprehend the entire post before you respond, I am making an observation that in the future there may be more posts like this that I would be missing out on.

I did read your post, i was just trying to help.

Brightwater said:
I did read your post, i was just trying to help.

Thank you for your consideration, but it came off pretty condescending, I'm very capable of saving pictures to my $900 computer I assembled myself.

Are you a programmer? Then you could try this:
- keep mlp in your blacklist
- write a script that goes through all posts in your blacklist, and checks if they're on http://twentypercentcooler.net/

If the script finds a blacklisted post on 20pc, then it's probably a genuine mlp post, and you don't want to see it.
Otherwise, any mlp content in the post is probably incidental, and the post is "safe".

Munkelzahn said:
Are you a programmer? Then you could try this:
- keep mlp in your blacklist
- write a script that goes through all posts in your blacklist, and checks if they're on http://twentypercentcooler.net/

If the script finds a blacklisted post on 20pc, then it's probably a genuine mlp post, and you don't want to see it.
Otherwise, any mlp content in the post is probably incidental, and the post is "safe".

That's a potential.

My friend hates the pony fad so god damn much he would probably do it for free "for the cause".

I'll have to see about that.

In the meantime, any other suggestions?

blacklist my_little_pony -artist_name -artist_name -series_name...

The tag negation would keep unblocked some cameos that you would have to specify.

Or you could see about having mlp posters tag with "mlp_cameo". Again, not perfect.

Or go the opposite way and try to narrow the mlp posts to only ones containing ponies or characters:

my_little_pony pony
my_little_pony spike_(mlp) -plushie

I think you're better off just not clicking mlp thumbnails, but I don't understand blacklisters anyway. Nice avatar btw

As I said in the other topic I'll start going through and adding "cameo" to posts that only have My Little Pony as a cameo, thus it's still tag what ye see but hopefully it will bring back out those gems that only have a pony playing a minimalist or "cameo" role.

Adrian_Blazevic said:
blacklist my_little_pony -artist_name -artist_name -series_name...

The tag negation would keep unblocked some cameos that you would have to specify.

Or you could see about having mlp posters tag with "mlp_cameo". Again, not perfect.

Or go the opposite way and try to narrow the mlp posts to only ones containing ponies or characters:

my_little_pony pony
my_little_pony spike_(mlp) -plushie

I think you're better off just not clicking mlp thumbnails, but I don't understand blacklisters anyway. Nice avatar btw

I think it would be more effective if
1) Blacklist my_little_pony -id:152725, or
2) Don't fight while you can join us them

I did the second (partially, I don't consider myself a brony) because I knew this pony fad will grow to a level making e6 upload function stop working that take 20% of the internet. And admins know that I had them in the blacklist

Edit: If you looked at my favs, I also have ponyflood, so thay may sound a bit contradictory

Maybe you could have your blacklist show mlp pictures that also have another animal type besides ponies?

Raiden_Gekkou said:
Maybe you could have your blacklist show mlp pictures that also have another animal type besides ponies?

Oh god, what would that even look like?
my_little_pony -feline -canine -avian -dragon -lizard -fish -cetacean -bovine -marsupial
And so on?

Snowy said:
Oh god, what would that even look like?
my_little_pony -feline -canine -avian -dragon -lizard -fish -cetacean -bovine -marsupial
And so on?

It looks ugly, but it'd be a start.

I will never understand blacklisting. Just saying.

Blaziken said:
I will never understand blacklisting. Just saying.

You don't understand people wanting to avoid having to see a subject matter they don't want to see? Blacklisting MLP makes it easier to look for things I want to actually see.

Rainbow_Crash said:
As I said in the other topic I'll start going through and adding "cameo" to posts that only have My Little Pony as a cameo, thus it's still tag what ye see but hopefully it will bring back out those gems that only have a pony playing a minimalist or "cameo" role.

This is exactly what I was going to suggest
The cameo tag only has a handful of posts

@PhrozenFox (& everyone else in this situation), will adding

my_little_pony -cameo

to your blacklist solve that problem?

The conversation is surprisingly civil, thank you!

Adrian_Blazevic said:

I think you're better off just not clicking mlp thumbnails, but I don't understand blacklisters anyway. Nice avatar btw

Ideas are good, so far I've been going the "not clicking MLP thumbnails" rule, but there's the time I get excited by seeing 5 flashes and they're all MLP. It was hard enough to find good flashes to begin with, aye carumba.

Rainbow_Crash said:
As I said in the other topic I'll start going through and adding "cameo" to posts that only have My Little Pony as a cameo, thus it's still tag what ye see but hopefully it will bring back out those gems that only have a pony playing a minimalist or "cameo" role.

Thank you for the help! I personally don't have the stomach to go through every pic with MLP in it, haha.

Snowy said:
Oh god, what would that even look like?
my_little_pony -feline -canine -avian -dragon -lizard -fish -cetacean -bovine -marsupial
And so on?

Raiden_Gekkou said:
It looks ugly, but it'd be a start.

I'm trying to avoid having to do that much work, plus this would help a lot of people like me.

Blaziken said:
I will never understand blacklisting. Just saying.

While I understand the pony fad, I will never understand how people put up with it.

--------

Thanks for the help guys, and please don't be so hard on people when it comes to the blacklist, it's not exactly the concrete solution we make it out to be. :3

titaniachkt said:
This is exactly what I was going to suggest
The cameo tag only has a handful of posts

@PhrozenFox (& everyone else in this situation), will adding

my_little_pony -cameo

to your blacklist solve that problem?

Though it's un-heard of, adding MLP_(cameo) might be necessary in such a situation, removing "cameo" as a tag entirely would lose those pictures with cameo, I think if we have such a huge fad hit us like Pony, we need to make minor habit changes to ensure the pleasure (and reduction of shitposting) of the users who aren't quite as keen on accepting it.

Nice avatar btw

It's more/less that I'm seeing if somebody will tell me it's inappropriate, when the picture is allowed on the site, heh.

PhrozenFox said:
removing "cameo" as a tag entirely would lose those pictures with cameo,

Not sure if I understand what you mean by that, adding -cameo to same line with mlp allows you to see:

things just with cameos

-
As for the cameo_(mlp) tag, I think it sounds like a good idea, since the mlp cameos are rather sizeable

You'd have to ask one of the Staff to make it official

PhrozenFox said:
Ideas are good, so far I've been going the "not clicking MLP thumbnails" rule, but there's the time I get excited by seeing 5 flashes and they're all MLP. It was hard enough to find good flashes to begin with, aye carumba.

FYI for flashes, if you hover your mouse over the thumbnail/link to the flash without clicking it will pop up a list of all the tags for that flash, as well as it's rating(Safe, Questionable, or Explicit) I use this method to avoid non-porn flashes and you ought to be able to do the same with MLP material fairly easily.

titaniachkt said:
As for the cameo_(mlp) tag, I think it sounds like a good idea, since the mlp cameos are rather sizeable

You'd have to ask one of the Staff to make it official

I have no problem with this, though I do see a bit of potential for misuse. But hey, if you guys think you can make it work, power to ya.

Hammie said:
FYI for flashes, if you hover your mouse over the thumbnail/link to the flash without clicking it will pop up a list of all the tags for that flash, as well as it's rating(Safe, Questionable, or Explicit) I use this method to avoid non-porn flashes and you ought to be able to do the same with MLP material fairly easily.

Yeah I do that, but when I'm tired I get excited, haha.

titaniachkt said:
Not sure if I understand what you mean by that, adding -cameo to same line with mlp allows you to see:
-
As for the cameo_(mlp) tag, I think it sounds like a good idea, since the mlp cameos are rather sizeable

You'd have to ask one of the Staff to make it official

They're all pony now though!

Aaaaaagh

PhrozenFox said:
Though it's un-heard of, adding MLP_(cameo) might be necessary in such a situation, removing "cameo" as a tag entirely would lose those pictures with cameo, I think if we have such a huge fad hit us like Pony, we need to make minor habit changes to ensure the pleasure (and reduction of shitposting) of the users who aren't quite as keen on accepting it.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Since you have "-cameo", cameo will not be blacklisted regardless of whether or not it's tagged with "my_little_pony"

As for an "MLP_(cameo)" tag, I honestly don't think it's necessary when "cameo" itself will work.

Rainbow_Crash said:
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Since you have "-cameo", cameo will not be blacklisted regardless of whether or not it's tagged with "my_little_pony"

As for an "MLP_(cameo)" tag, I honestly don't think it's necessary when "cameo" itself will work.

Oh I get it, I get it.

I haven't used the blacklist in a while, so putting my_little_pony -cameo on one line would remove every picture with my_little_pony except the ones with the cameo tag in them?

PhrozenFox said:
so putting my_little_pony -cameo on one line would remove every picture with my_little_pony except the ones with the cameo tag in them?

Yup, you got it

That's assuming all the posts with mlp cameos are tagged with cameo though

If you see any like those, adding in the cameo tag would be a good idea

titaniachkt said:
Yup, you got it

That's assuming all the posts with mlp cameos are tagged with cameo though

If you see any like those, adding in the cameo tag would be a good idea

I will, and I'm glad all the ponyfans and non-ponyfans are able to make a compromise to help both of us, less shitposting and better service overall!

Thank you for making a nice, civil discussion about an issue that I'm sure others will benefit from knowing as well. I'll go through and add that cameo tag wherever it's needed

I hope everyone knows this isn't a perfect solution though. you could have an MLP picture with cameos from other franchises. (tf2 anyone?) in some cases, how do you separate cameo from featuring? is cameo the best word?

SnowWolf said:
I hope everyone knows this isn't a perfect solution though. you could have an MLP picture with cameos from other franchises. (tf2 anyone?) in some cases, how do you separate cameo from featuring? is cameo the best word?

At the moment this is a band-aid solution. I suppose one might consider adding "my_little_pony team_fortress_2 (or really any franchise they don't want to see) -cameo" but I think we need a more solid solution

well, I more meant.. here's a pony picture with a TF2 character in it. It will slide past the my_little_pony -cameo filter. Or a pony picture with a companion cube might be a better example.

I'm not sure this is much of a solution at all honety... and it takes a whole lot of tagging effort. and then--how to determine what is or isn't a cameo? :C

A cameo is when it isn't the main subject matter. Having an MLP pillow in the background would only really be a cameo. We could have a seperate tag such as

titaniachkt said:
As for the cameo_(mlp) tag, I think it sounds like a good idea, since the mlp cameos are rather sizeable

But this might be problematic as if you tag the character, "mlp" will be added.

Although if we started using mlp_(cameo) then I suppose you could enter it in your blacklist as "my_little_pony -mlp_(cameo) and get the desired result. Only problem with that is, what if it's something like sonic or pokemon that people are having the same issues with? Do we make insert_franchise_here_(cameo) for the biggest ones or do we just use cameo in general?

Rainbow_Crash said:
A cameo is when it isn't the main subject matter. Having an MLP pillow in the background would only really be a cameo. We could have a seperate tag such as

But this might be problematic as if you tag the character, "mlp" will be added.

Although if we started using mlp_(cameo) then I suppose you could enter it in your blacklist as "my_little_pony -mlp_(cameo) and get the desired result. Only problem with that is, what if it's something like sonic or pokemon that people are having the same issues with? Do we make insert_franchise_here_(cameo) for the biggest ones or do we just use cameo in general?

I think we should use cameo and then blacklist it as franchise_name -cameo. It'll be more effective than using company_(cameo) since it allows more flexibility (and avoids adding pointless tags). Imagine the number of franchises, like (and not limited to) nintendo, hasbro, sony, etc, etc. We already have them

That is what I was getting at, it would probably be easier to just have the franchise then cameo, so people can blacklist specific franchises they choose.

SnowWolf said:
I hope everyone knows this isn't a perfect solution though. you could have an MLP picture with cameos from other franchises. (tf2 anyone?) in some cases, how do you separate cameo from featuring? is cameo the best word?

Like I said, with things that start blowing up into huge arguments, we may want to add specific cameo tags.

I'm mostly staying out of this because I don't like this as an idea in general. it seems like pointless tag clutter made to appease a smaller group of people then the viewing base at large... and I wonder if a pool or something might be better suited for this sort of thing...

that said,. the idea of a tag used to denote that there is a small appearance of a franchised character in an image otherwise unfocused upon the characters from that franchise is not a bad one. but it does need to be clearly defined.

The biggest problem with this tag is that it is a tremendous undertaking.

For 'best effect' this tag needs to be on as many images as possible. That means retroactivly tagging every single image possible, not jsut the new images of that nature. SO how to find them? go through every single my_little_pony image? Every Sonic image? every the_lion_king image? .. .etc etc.. . that will take forever... if you try and narrow it down by searching for things like wolf the_lion_king or the_lion_king plushie you're still possibly missing out on HUGE swathes of potential posts. I mean, thinking about the number of potential pokemon cameos is terrifying.

and then there's still the issue of defining a cameo exactly. For the following examples, I'll be using my dear old friend the weighted_companion_cube

post #227236 -- This is clearly a cameo. The companion cube has no focus in the image

post #186411 -- is this a cameo? It's hard to tell. it's not the focus of the image but it's not a minor part of the image either.

post #130500 -- Obviously not a cameo. This is a 'portal' themed image, furry aside, so the Companion cube belongs.

post #228098 -- is this a companion cube cameo? or not? Probably not so much.

Lots of gray area D: HUGE project....

SnowWolf said:
I wonder if a pool or something might be better suited for this sort of thing...

I think that this is better served by a tag than by a pool. The pool interface on each image would be distracting and kinda pointless, because it's not an ordered set of images. Also, it's much easier to remember "cameo" as a search term than "pool:2718".

SnowWolf said:
I'm mostly staying out of this because I don't like this as an idea in general. it seems like pointless tag clutter made to appease a smaller group of people then the viewing base at large... and I wonder if a pool or something might be better suited for this sort of thing...

This is why we are going to use "company_name -cameo" instead of using "company1_(cameo) company2_(cameo) ... companyN_(cameo)".

SnowWolf then said:
For 'best effect' this tag needs to be on as many images as possible. That means retroactivly tagging every single image possible, not jsut the new images of that nature. SO how to find them? go through every single my_little_pony image? Every Sonic image? every the_lion_king image? .. .etc etc.. . that will take forever... if you try and narrow it down by searching for things like wolf the_lion_king or the_lion_king plushie you're still possibly missing out on HUGE swathes of potential posts. I mean, thinking about the number of potential pokemon cameos is terrifying.

lol jsut *ahem* yup, another point. If we want to cover every cameo of every character in every image, we must go to the very first posts and start checking. Even with simple tags like plushie, or crossover.

Snowy said:
I think that this is better served by a tag than by a pool. The pool interface on each image would be distracting and kinda pointless, because it's not an ordered set of images. Also, it's much easier to remember "cameo" as a search term than "pool:2718".

With luck I can even remember my phone number :/

SnowWolf said:
I'm mostly staying out of this because I don't like this as an idea in general. it seems like pointless tag clutter made to appease a smaller group of people then the viewing base at large...

The biggest problem with this tag is that it is a tremendous undertaking.

Lots of gray area D: HUGE project....

Thank you, I'd been staying out of the discussion for the same reason. The person who initiated the entire idea has turned down numerous solutions because "it's too much work." So in order to fix one person's problem, others are now having to create new tags and dedicate themselves to weeks of retagging as well as maintaining these tags in the future.

I just think that's really uncool.

DobiesHot said:
Thank you, I'd been staying out of the discussion for the same reason. The person who initiated the entire idea has turned down numerous solutions because "it's too much work." So in order to fix one person's problem, others are now having to create new tags and dedicate themselves to weeks of retagging as well as maintaining these tags in the future.

I just think that's really uncool.

100% this. Multiple much more sane options have been nixed because this one user who is having such a spazz-out wants things HIS way, and HIS way requires complete retagging of every picture in the future and fighting with the hordes of poor taggers just to keep this tag in so this singular user doesn't have to go through the 'horror' of seeing a picture he doesn't like.

Fuck that shit. I wholeheartedly oppose the idea of this new tag. It's too much work, to put the shoe on the other foot.

Blaziken said:
100% this. Multiple much more sane options have been nixed because this one user who is having such a spazz-out wants things HIS way, and HIS way requires complete retagging of every picture in the future and fighting with the hordes of poor taggers just to keep this tag in so this singular user doesn't have to go through the 'horror' of seeing a picture he doesn't like.

Fuck that shit. I wholeheartedly oppose the idea of this new tag. It's too much work, to put the shoe on the other foot.

Then it'll be enough using "franchise -id:specific_post_id"?

Blaziken said:
100% this. Multiple much more sane options have been nixed because this one user who is having such a spazz-out wants things HIS way, and HIS way requires complete retagging of every picture in the future and fighting with the hordes of poor taggers just to keep this tag in so this singular user doesn't have to go through the 'horror' of seeing a picture he doesn't like.

Fuck that shit. I wholeheartedly oppose the idea of this new tag. It's too much work, to put the shoe on the other foot.

I was going to mention the selfishness as well, but that was too much work for me. I mean, whatever happened to not clicking the thumbnail? If you want to circumvent a lot of stuff on the site, it's going to take a little bit more work than just using the blacklist normally, and this guy has turned down every usable idea because it would take a few more seconds of work. If you don't want to do a few more seconds of work to reach your desired end result, you must not realy want to get there. Why are we bending over backwards for one guy anyway?

Raiden_Gekkou said:
Why are we bending over backwards for one guy anyway?

Because cameo tags 'should' be tagged anyway; it's specifically because it's not for just one person that I agreed to it

The more I think about this idea, the more impractical it sounds. I mean, who's it for, other than OP? Are people really going to utilize it? Not likely. Obviously the franchise/character/company_(cameo) idea is out of the question, and as I said earlier, cameo has a lot of potential for misuse and arguments. Not worth the effort, in my opinion.

I'm not doing this to appease one person. I'm sure there are more out there that would benefit from this tag, so I'm adding it to obvious posts where a franchise plays a very minimal role (such as a poster or doll in the background)

This person isn't being selfish, they are merely raising a point that this tag could see more use to help blacklisting be more accurate, without having to re-tag everything. We could break down cameo into (franchise)_cameo but that's a little over the top.

Leaving it as just "cameo" doesn't solve the problem either because as SnowWolf said, you could have any franchise making an appearance, such as TF2 cameos in MLP posts. But if you had TF2 blacklisted to begin with then it wouldn't show anyway; so although it doesn't fix the problem it would at least narrow it down more.

I could talk to at least 50 people who would be for this, but when I look at the avatars in this topic alone, I notice at least 80% are ponies.

I'm actually surprised Rainbow Crash is so keen on helping improve the quality of the site for those who dislike the pony fandom stuff.

This isn't for me, I'm just so far the only person with the right combination of audacity and intelligence not to try and say "PONY IZ GAY DIS IS FURI SITE"

Please respect that while it seems like we're surrounded with pony, that there's just as many people who would rather see the site done with it entirely.

I think the point of a booru is to have the most sophisticated tagging system possible, so as to filter a mass of images into a perfect stream of exactly what you want, or you have to refine your search.

I think that a certain tag should have a threshold upon which we institute a cameo tag is required, say if a tag has at least 5000 posts under it, a cameo tag is required for small parts.

It's a project, yeah, but it's for the sake of furthering the site for users of all persuasion.

To be honest, just looking at pony pictures really piss me off, not because it's some TV show I disagree with, but because of the fact that almost every time I see one of those pictures, I see a smug, extremely uneducated or socially retarded post beside it. I'm really glad the community here is understanding enough to at least understand that pony is not for them.

Thanks for the effort so far in helping e621 evolve as a website for everybody, (Because remember, it's not a "just furry" site either.)

Pictures like post #224696
post #187034
and
post #166672
could benefit from simply having "cameo" on them because that character is hardly even noticeable.

ippiki is right though when he says it has a potential for misuse, as I can easily see it being slapped on lot's of posts unnecessarily and making blacklists not work. However, I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages; because it's also true that if a few slip by you can just ignore them rather than missing out on things.

As for being a huge re-tag the index project, I think not. I'm seeing it as more of a simple "from now on and if you come across it browsing, tag it"

Also, I like ponies (duh) but if someone doesn't then I take it upon myself to make sure they don't have to see it, so that we can co-exist happily.

In an effort to appease everyone, how about something like a 'cameo percentage'?

We could specify the minimum ratio of recognizeable character/copyrights to the general image that's required for that post to be tagged with cameo

For example:
Assuming we agree that 10% or less is the threshold for the cameo tag to be valid-
post #166672
The hello kitty underwear is attributed to roughly <10% of the entire image, so it would get the cameo tag

The threshold value could be anything agreed upon, from 10%, to 20%, to even 50% if the case need be

I'll admit, this is becoming more complicated than it needs to be. If you didn't see it from the thumb because it was too small or insignificant, then that's a cameo, like the definition of the word. Simple as that.

I think you can't measure if something is a cameo. Not by looking at the relative amount of space it takes up, anyway. Suppose you have a pic of a wall with a hello kitty mural on it. And the wall/mural takes up most of the pic. And in front of the wall, there's a group of murries having an orgy. Which do you think people are going to notice first?

tldr:
use common sense when tagging cameos, we don't need rules for that

Rainbow_Crash said:
Leaving it as just "cameo" doesn't solve the problem either because as SnowWolf said, you could have any franchise making an appearance, such as TF2 cameos in MLP posts. But if you had TF2 blacklisted to begin with then it wouldn't show anyway; so although it doesn't fix the problem it would at least narrow it down more.

actually my specific point with mentioning that was that a pony-centric picture tagged Cameo because of a Pyro frolicking through the background would show up for the same reason that the girls playing video games with pony plushies on their beds would show up.

PhrozenFox said:
I could talk to at least 50 people who would be for this, but when I look at the avatars in this topic alone, I notice at least 80% are ponies.

I'm actually surprised Rainbow Crash is so keen on helping improve the quality of the site for those who dislike the pony fandom stuff.

This comment does not endear me to this idea any more then before. "The ponies want to take over the site!!11!" is not a new idea. The majority of the people here are interested in *making the site better* not shoving ponies down everyone's throat. I havn't seen anyone telling you OMG YOU SHOULD JUST EMBRACE DA PONI!!! or YOU'RE WRONG FOR HATING PONY. ... far from it, in fact. An idea was brought up, an idea was explored and I, with my experiences on this website with tags, expressed *my* dubiousness with the project and with the problems I saw.

This isn't for me, I'm just so far the only person with the right combination of audacity and intelligence not to try and say "PONY IZ GAY DIS IS FURI SITE"

Please respect that while it seems like we're surrounded with pony, that there's just as many people who would rather see the site done with it entirely.

And for those people, there is the blacklist. Just saying. The general rule for the previous life of the site has been "blacklist it if you don't want to see it." ... you are not the first person to say "but what about the hidden gems?!" ... the answer has generally always been to either blacklist it and be happy, or to not blacklist it and view carefully. I don't see why it being ponies is any different then someone who blacklists herms, foxes, dragons, lesbians, or any other wide category of image here.

I think the point of a booru is to have the most sophisticated tagging system possible, so as to filter a mass of images into a perfect stream of exactly what you want, or you have to refine your search.

Yes. This is true. But there's a limit to it. You notice we do not have a tag for 'vixen' That is because it is overly specific. In a 'perfect' world, there would be tags for every gender/species combination,, there would be tags specifically for big_tittied_wolf_girls_in_blue_bikinis_getting_nailed_by_buff_lion_guys_in_sunglasses. but that's too damn specific. So we have "female wolf big_breasts bikini sex muscles male lion sunglasses". which also happens to turn up a buff female lion being boned by a cross dressing wolf in a bikini with sunglasses in the sand. Or a wolf giving a lion a blow job. or a gang bang with a turtle a fox and three sharks. Or a sunbathing wolf in sunglasses with a lion off in the background with two chibi skunks in the background having sex. Tags are a tool. The blacklist is a tool. Tools have limits.

Perhaps the biggest limit with these tools is that we rely on people to tag everything. There are over 200 pages of posts that don't have a gender tagged on them. And a LOT of those are pictures where there are obvious sex organs, where all it takes is someone to type "female" on it. there are 68 pages where 'sex' is tagged, but there isn't any indication of it's gay, Lesbian, straight, masturbation or what. There thousands of pictures who are in need of having fur colors tagged. There are... so many pictures in need of tagging it's ridiculous.

When a new tag is proposed, it has to be looked at. What does the tag cover? how is the tag defined? how do we encourage it's use?

When it's something like "I think that socks should be better tagged depending on length" then that's pretty easy. go through the 'sock' tags and retag after laying out very careful rules of what sock tags are going to be used. there are only about 2000 sock related tags, after all.
When it's something like "I think skunks should be better tagged according to their markings, there's some discussion that needs to be had. Let's say we eventually decide it's better to tag off of markings (2-4 stripes, one thick stripe, spots, etc), there are only about 3500 skunk images, after all.

But for this.. we're looking at Every. Single. Franchise. Every. Single. Copyright. My little pony, pokemon, sonic, and digimon together, make up 43,000 images. and tha'ts not counting the... nummerous other less popular franchises like Mario, or Zelda or World of Warcraft or Star Fox. if it takes 5 seconds to look and determine if an image is a cameo or not, then that will take nearly 2 and a half days, assuming you do nothing but stare at your screen and tag cameos

That is what I'm trying to emphasize here. This is a huge. Bloody. Project.

To put it to scale, If I randomly decided that I wanted to tag every pussy image with words that DESCRIBE the pussy in question (plump labia, large pussy lips, sizeable clit, etc, etc) I would have less images to go through (38,500).

SO who is going to undertake this project? Speaking from experience, a lot of people are willing to say "I HAVE AN OPINION", but when it comes time to do the work, there are very few motivated volunteers. Much less, people willing to spend 60 hours working at a single project.

I think that a certain tag should have a threshold upon which we institute a cameo tag is required, say if a tag has at least 5000 posts under it, a cameo tag is required for small parts.

That's not how tags work. Tags belong on everything. EVERYTHING. that they apply to. That means pokemon (17,000 posts), sonic (5000 posts), the lion king (650) and wolf's rain (115) alike.

It's a project, yeah, but it's for the sake of furthering the site for users of all persuasion.

Certainly. And so is ensuring that the 5100 images that contain sex, yet are not tagged with any kind of orientation are tagged.

To be honest, just looking at pony pictures really piss me off, not because it's some TV show I disagree with, but because of the fact that almost every time I see one of those pictures, I see a smug, extremely uneducated or socially retarded post beside it. I'm really glad the community here is understanding enough to at least understand that pony is not for them.

I'm glad my smug, extremely uneducated and socially retarded post can be here for you in this post. I clearly don't know anything about what I'm talking about.

So with that in mind, who is going to undertake this project? Just one persoon will cut it down to about 30 hours of work. tha'ts not even a full time job, after all.

rainbow Crash: As for being a huge re-tag the index project, I think not. I'm seeing it as more of a simple "from now on and if you come across it browsing, tag it"

Tags don't take off very well like that. A tag isn't comprehensive in that circumstance. Tags should strive to be as comprehensive as possible. That's the point of them, after all.

Keep in mind that for every way YOU think of using this tag, someoen else will use it otherwise -- to FIND cameos, for example.

that said, will it be applied retroactively? no. because people don't want to spend the time to do that. They just kind of think it should happen somehow.

everything SnowWolf said

That is pretty much a perfect opinion of this situation. If you want the cameo tag, PhrozenFox, you can do it yourself. You and the '50' other users who want it can do it too. But don't think just becuse you want it every single user on the site will leap onto your bandwagon.

Kind of funny that you go off about 'smug, extremely uneducated or socially retarded posts' when you're guilty of the same.

SnowWolf said:
Widsom

Sums it up quite well.

SnowWolf said:
actually my specific point with mentioning that was that a pony-centric picture tagged Cameo because of a Pyro frolicking through the background would show up for the same reason that the girls playing video games with pony plushies on their beds would show up.

I don't think this is too much of a problem. The best is the enemy of the good and all that. It would at least cut out the vast majority of the unwanted pictures, if it was tagged.

But then, that's the problem, isn't it? I can think of so many more tags that I want to see more than I want to see a cameo tag, and I know that none of them are going to happen because the effort required is prohibitive.

Snowy said:
I don't think this is too much of a problem. The best is the enemy of the good and all that. It would at least cut out the vast majority of the unwanted pictures, if it was tagged.

But then, that's the problem, isn't it? I can think of so many more tags that I want to see more than I want to see a cameo tag, and I know that none of them are going to happen because the effort required is prohibitive.

Guess you just have to keep hoping for someone to build an automated image recognition and tagging system.

It's the same tagging problem we see elsewhere (forum #38725), how do you search for images with a female fox and a male rabbit, and not the other way around? i.e. how do you tag tags? The tagging system is completely single-dimensional for simplicity. This increases accuracy in some areas, losing some semantics and precision in others. If it's a good trade-off I'm not sure.

As a result, the tagging system is somewhat probabilistic: You should always get the results you're looking for, and also some false positives. This is a problem for some blacklists, because those false positives become false negatives.

Overall, a change in the tagging system may be necessary to fix. However, for this particular case, and probably most cases, it isn't so.

It appears the problem lies in the semantics of the copyright tags. What is the purpose of the copyright tags, to label every single image where a particular franchise appears, or to label the work's main theme?

I can imagine people wanting both use cases. However, I've never needed to search for posts that merely contain, say, Star Fox references, just images featuring that theme.

Perhaps we want to take a look at changing the semantics of the copyright tag to mean "A work about the tag" instead of "A work containing something that falls under the scope of the tag", and removing the implications from character tags to their copyright tag, so the mere appearance of Rainbow Dash (or whomever) doesn't necessarily implicate that the entire image is one about My Little Pony.

(I think everyone's points are valid as well)

What about the crossover tag? Is there some sort of grey area that was mentioned by Snow et al that this, or cameo covers?

ThenIThought said:
I can imagine people wanting both use cases. However, I've never needed to search for posts that merely contain, say, Star Fox references, just images featuring that theme.

Perhaps we want to take a look at changing the semantics of the copyright tag to mean "A work about the tag" instead of "A work containing something that falls under the scope of the tag", and removing the implications from character tags to their copyright tag, so the mere appearance of Rainbow Dash (or whomever) doesn't necessarily implicate that the entire image is one about My Little Pony.

The copyright tags are used exactly the same as every other tag on the site; if it's in the image, tag it. You wouldn't leave the fox tag off of an image with a bunch of wolves and one fox, because the fox isn't the main theme of the image. Same with the copyright tag.

Having a cameo_(mlp) tag is just one step towards a cameo_(pokemon) tag and a cameo_(star_fox) tag and a cameo_(sonic) tag. This is a direction that the tagging system should not go. It is not, in my opinion, what tags are for.

tony311 said:
The copyright tags are used exactly the same as every other tag on the site; if it's in the image, tag it. You wouldn't leave the fox tag off of an image with a bunch of wolves and one fox, because the fox isn't the main theme of the image. Same with the copyright tag.

I don't think this logically extends to the copyright tags. If there's a single fox in the image, yeah, we tag fox. By implication, this tags canine, because it's necessarily true that there's at least a single canine. It doesn't make grammatical sense to say, however, that there's a single copyright:Star_Fox. This still falls in line with the tagging philosophy/rules, the definition of some tags would be changing, not tag what you see or similar.

I realize it's been the standard meaning, which is why I'm asking, what would be the consequences of changing it? Is there anyone who actually depends on the copyright tags to find or blacklist every last My Little Pony reference in an image?

ThenIThought said:
I don't think this logically extends to the copyright tags. If there's a single fox in the image, yeah, we tag fox. By implication, this tags canine, because it's necessarily true that there's at least a single canine. It doesn't make grammatical sense to say, however, that there's a single copyright:Star_Fox. This still falls in line with the tagging philosophy/rules, the definition of some tags would be changing, not tag what you see or similar.

I realize it's been the standard meaning, which is why I'm asking, what would be the consequences of changing it? Is there anyone who actually depends on the copyright tags to find or blacklist every last My Little Pony reference in an image?

Yes. The whole point of this dilemma is the fact that you miss out on some otherwise really good pictures if not for a cameo or even a photoshop with a parent to the non shopped picture. <-- If you were to blacklist a certain copyright tag.

ThenIThought said: Is there anyone who actually depends on the copyright tags to find or blacklist every last My Little Pony reference in an image?

Yes.

Yes.

Like, Yes. A lot.

When I want ponies, I look up 'my_little_pony'. Sometimes, for fun I search for my_little_pony -friendship_is_magic to find older generation ponies that are not from the newest series. The copyright tag is how you FIND pictures related to a franchise. Just like how an arrtist tag finds you pictures from a certain artist. When we tell someone to blacklist ponies, we tell them to add my_little_pony to their list. So, yes. a whole TON of people depend on the copyright tags to find that they are looking for, and to blacklist what they do not want. This is... not really negotiable.

I'm confused if i'm misunderstanding what you're meaning somehow. But.. yes. Copyright tags are just tags that show up in a different color. If Fox Mccloud is in a room full of anonymous wolves, we still tag fox, we still tag star_fox.

Quite often when people don't like something from a series, they want to blacklist that series entirely. Especially since some of these franchises have and introduce many characters, usually of the same styling that people want to blacklist. Believe me, yes there are a lot of people who need to be able to blacklist entire categories

As for your dilemma, I don't know what to say. The majority of things blacklisted for mlp contain very little standard furry content; so you aren't missing pages of posts. It's the same for any franchise, you either have to blacklist it at the risk of not seeing a few hidden gems, or you don't blacklist it and see it all.

SnowWolf said:
Yes.

Yes.

Like, Yes. A lot.

When I want ponies, I look up 'my_little_pony'. Sometimes, for fun I search for my_little_pony -friendship_is_magic to find older generation ponies that are not from the newest series. The copyright tag is how you FIND pictures related to a franchise. Just like how an arrtist tag finds you pictures from a certain artist. When we tell someone to blacklist ponies, we tell them to add my_little_pony to their list. So, yes. a whole TON of people depend on the copyright tags to find that they are looking for, and to blacklist what they do not want. This is... not really negotiable.

I'm confused if i'm misunderstanding what you're meaning somehow. But.. yes. Copyright tags are just tags that show up in a different color. If Fox Mccloud is in a room full of anonymous wolves, we still tag fox, we still tag star_fox.

I take it, then, you do want post #152725 to show up when you search for my_little_pony. Fair enough.

The next question then, might be, what's more important? The desire to filter out every last image with a MLP reference, or only images about MLP? I can live with either, but it seems the solution to is the latter definition. This may not be a good solution in general of course, I can live with the former.

I'm going by my own assumption that if you're looking for a particular character, say, vinyl_scratch_(mlp), you want to see every post, but not so when you're searching broad genres, where you want to search the selected theme of the post. rarity_(mlp) might be in the image, but it's not the theme of the post, and I wouldn't tag it with this theoretical theme tag group.

If you wanted to find every post with a MLP character, couldn't you search *_(mlp)?

ThenIThought said:
I take it, then, you do want post #152725 to show up when you search for my_little_pony. Fair enough.

The next question then, might be, what's more important? The desire to filter out every last image with a MLP reference, or only images about MLP? I can live with either, but it seems the solution to is the latter definition. This may not be a good solution in general of course, I can live with the former.

I'm going by my own assumption that if you're looking for a particular character, say, vinyl_scratch_(mlp), you want to see every post, but not so when you're searching broad genres, where you want to search the selected theme of the post. rarity_(mlp) might be in the image, but it's not the theme of the post, and I wouldn't tag it with this theoretical theme tag group.

If you wanted to find every post with a MLP character, couldn't you search *_(mlp)?

I see Rarity, so I tag Rarity. If someone is searching for Rarity, they would want to see Rarity, regardless of how insignificant she is in the picture.

In my opinion, blacklisting every single post with even the slightest trace of MLP is more important than just images that have the majority of their content being MLP. If everyone tagged by "what is the theme or majority of the image" then there would be so much inconsistency and arguing.

You could, but why have it that way when you can just have my_little_pony? The other (maybe more important) reason is that *_(mlp) won't work on blacklists. What if the series is starfox or pokemon? Most franchises don't have all their characters suffixed with the series name.

Rainbow_Crash said:
I see Rarity, so I tag Rarity. If someone is searching for Rarity, they would want to see Rarity, regardless of how insignificant she is in the picture.

Exactly my point. Specific tags mean specific things (character is present in an image), and also generic tags mean generic things (the image is about a theme).

Rainbow_Crash said:
In my opinion, blacklisting every single post with even the slightest trace of MLP is more important than just images that have the majority of their content being MLP. If everyone tagged by "what is the theme or majority of the image" then there would be so much inconsistency and arguing.

I really can't imagine who does this. Though people do want to search for such cases, who would want to blacklist even an image that has a single MLP plushie in it? Maybe this person exists, but I doubt it's the plurality of use cases. There's no problem in subjectivity, we have tags like cute or lol_comments. It has a fairly objective definition as to what the opposite ends of the spectrum are for cute vs. not cute, and maybe half the posts that people would place in the middle end up getting the tag. And that's just the way it deserves to be.

I'm fine with seeing the occasional MLP post, to make a site tailored to my tastes, I just don't want it in every other post, or in every single post on a page.

(That said, I don't use the blacklist, I'm fine with simply ignoring posts I don't want to see, especially rather than risk the odd good post getting blacklisted.)

Lack of wildcard blacklisting is a pretty good reason, heh. That's easily fixed I gather, especially since the blacklisting is done client side. (I wouldn't do it that way but everyone looks happy with it so, eh.)

ThenIThought said:
I really can't imagine who does this. Though people do want to search for such cases, who would want to blacklist even an image that has a single MLP plushie in it?

Me.

ThenIThought said:
I really can't imagine who does this. Though people do want to search for such cases, who would want to blacklist even an image that has a single MLP plushie in it?

Me too. Not only do I blacklist my_little_pony, I also blacklist equine and horse, for good measure.

Now, I don't care how much of it gets posted here. Post whatever you want. I just don't want to see it.

ThenIThought said:
I take it, then, you do want post #152725 to show up when you search for my_little_pony. Fair enough.

Yes. Because as a fan of my little pony, I want to be able to go "aw, rarity! :D"
Yes. Because as someone who hasn't ever seen the show, I might want to go "well, that white unicorn is pretty cute.. what's her name?"
Yes. Because it contains my little pony.

The next question then, might be, what's more important? The desire to filter out every last image with a MLP reference, or only images about MLP? I can live with either, but it seems the solution to is the latter definition. This may not be a good solution in general of course, I can live with the former.

I'm going by my own assumption that if you're looking for a particular character, say, vinyl_scratch_(mlp), you want to see every post, but not so when you're searching broad genres, where you want to search the selected theme of the post. rarity_(mlp) might be in the image, but it's not the theme of the post, and I wouldn't tag it with this theoretical theme tag group.

Let's scale this a different way.
Let's pretend that we're not talking about incredibly prevalent marshmallow ponies. Let's say we're talking about scat. Or gore. Or Cub porn. Or Cub scat gore porn. Now. Let's pretend this is a Thing that is posted a lot more frequently then it currently is. Let's pretend that, truthfully, a lot of people go OH GOD WAT NO!" when they see this mysterious controversial tag. They hate it. it makes them sick to their stomachs whenever they see an image depicting a graphically disemboweled fox/one fur shitting a fucking log into another's mouth/an elephant screwing a cub. They don't want to see this. At all. Ever. They hate it. SO they put it into their blacklists.

SO her'es a picture. it's got, off in the corner, taking up like 10% of the image, an example of this horrible gut wrenching tag that , as soon as they notice it in a picture, completely ruins the rest of the picture because all they can see is that which they hate. But, it only takes up a TINY part of the picture. really, the focus is on how that teen wolf dude is totally boning his friends mom. The fact that his friends' dad is screwing his friend's little sister/is sitting into his friend's mouth, has disembowled the neighbor and is making dinner in the doorway off in the corner of the image is totally irrelevant.

No? Gore/scat/cub isn't the same as my little pony? okay.. well.. .where's the line between the two? The line will be different for every one. so there is no line. we tag EVERYTHING. and people can define for themselves how badly they don't wanna see things.

If you wanted to find every post with a MLP character, couldn't you search *_(mlp)?

Not remotely.
let's look at post #141930 -- There are 4 characters there. All are ponies. They are tagged calamity, lilpip, steel_hooves and velvet_remedy
or post #208670 which is cobalt snow

Searching *_(mlp) would miss every single OC, or BG pony that has not been named with an *_(MLP) tag..

also, the average user likely has no clue they can use wildcards.

Though people do want to search for such cases, who would want to blacklist even an image that has a single MLP plushie in it? Maybe this person exists, but I doubt it's the plurality of use cases.

Many people. Many people loathe even the smallest hint of pony.

SnowWolf said:
No? Gore/scat/cub isn't the same as my little pony? okay.. well.. .where's the line between the two? The line will be different for every one. so there is no line. we tag EVERYTHING. and people can define for themselves how badly they don't wanna see things.

I'm not suggesting there's any case in which we don't tag characters or other specific things. scat isn't a copyright tag, it's something that's a present in an image. my_little_pony, meanwhile, isn't something present in an image per se, it's a copyright tag saying a My Little Pony character (or other thing) is present.

I get the wildcard thing, semantically it is meaningless.

It's obvious at least a few people also want the broad theme tags, I'd like to search by it. It doesn't seem there's any way that can happen without changing some aspect of the tag system or introducing new (and often redundant) tags.

ThenIThought said:
I'm not suggesting there's any case in which we don't tag characters or other specific things. scat isn't a copyright tag, it's something that's a present in an image.

Okay, a copyright tag is exactly the same as any other tag. It's just a different color. Same way as character tags and artist tags are. If we know th'at's a character with a name in background, it's tagged. if an artist contributed, it's tagged. If a copyright is present, it is tagged.

my_little_pony, meanwhile, isn't something present in an image per se, it's a copyright tag saying a My Little Pony character (or other thing) is present.

Having the my little pony copyright tag means that there are things covered under the 'my little pony' franchise within the image. Not that they are the theme for an image, but that they are part of an image in any form. GO to the grocery store and into the kids snacks or cereal aisle and find a box that's doing some sort of promotion for NICKOLODEAN CARTOONS or DISNEY FAVORITES or something like that that's covered in a variety of characters from different shows. then find the list of copyrights. it's huge. even for that tiny little appearance of a character that you could cover with the tip of your pinkie.

It's obvious at least a few people also want the broad theme tags, I'd like to search by it. It doesn't seem there's any way that can happen without changing some aspect of the tag system or introducing new (and often redundant) tags.

I'm still confused as to what you're even wanting. themes? like.. happy_theme sad_theme? my_little_pony_theme?

Setting aside the massive ambiguity of trying to classify and stamp a label on to art (really, is this a sad picture, or a happy picture? is this a picture lamenting modern society or celebrating it? ) the sort of change youre suggesting is the sort of massive, broad reaching idea that will take many, many, many, many man hours to impliment.

So if you have an idea... post about it. Sure. BUt come up with some very specific ideas about what you want, why it's a good idea, how it should be implimented, and be willing to not only talk about it and why it's a good idea... but also why it's a bad idea, how to fix it, and what we'll gain after. And, most of all, be willing to put your money where your mouth is and under take a significant portion of this idea by yourself.

PhrozenFox said:
Yes. The whole point of this dilemma is the fact that you miss out on some otherwise really good pictures if not for a cameo or even a photoshop with a parent to the non shopped picture. <-- If you were to blacklist a certain copyright tag.

Y'know what? Sometimes, you just miss good pictures. I have muscles blacklisted because I absolutely detest the ridiculous, super-bulked, couldn't-walk-if-they-had-to, probably-going-to-die-of-a-heart-attack things people post and get off to. But every once in awhile, some sleek, nubile sex kitten gets the tag, and I miss her because she's got a little muscle tone showing. It happens. It's not worth asking a few people to do MONTHS worth of work so that I don't.

I really think there are more worthy projects we could be debating. I also think it'd be just fine if this round-and-round discussion were closed.

DobiesHot said:
I really think there are more worthy projects we could be debating. I also think it'd be just fine if this round-and-round discussion were closed.

Indeed, 3 pages and still nothing solved.

It was pretty much a troll thread from the beginning, so locking it means no tears.