XD i could only focous on the border, i like a LOT!

Oh lizardlars, never change!

Tags: ambiguous_gender, male/ambiguous
Ecks Dee

Nothing like inter-species romance! ;-)

So according to the tags this isn't a gay comic?

The artist says GAY, the tags say AMBIGUOUS... so confused...

Aww, kissu o3o

Even if you use the "Tag What You See" Rule, the comic is deliberately male/male, and the expressions are deliberately masculine. Fixed Tags.

Haha you're amazing lizardlars.

I knew this would happen​ good in ya lizardlars

Just_Another_Dragon said:
Oh lizardlars, never change!

Except the heads. He has a severe case of same face/head in his work.

I love what you did with the border Lizardlars.

If we're gonna use the tag what you see rule, wouldn't this still be male/male? Assuming seeing also counts as reading. Because that text around the border would like to say otherwise about that male/ambiguous tag.

I love it when an artist trolls the viewers xD

Those tags are gonna stunt my brain. To keep that from happening, I'm following what the artist is saying. XD

sergal239 said:
I love it when an artist trolls the viewers xD

i don't troll anyone i just want to clarify that its male

lizardlars said:
i don't troll anyone i just want to clarify that its male

Thank you for the clarification! ^-^

people need to stop tagging ambiguous. it's gay. the artwork directly states it gay. there is no reasonable way for you to argue that you don't know the genders of both the characters.

Ratte said:
That's a great way to get a record.

You mean give yourself a record you can't even follow you on rules!

Qualske98 said:
You mean give yourself a record you can't even follow you on rules!

funny thing i did get 2 records because someone else tagged it as male/male few times and downvoted people who harrasses me BUT the one who harrassed me NEVER get any negative record

it just seems that E621 just don't like me whyever x3

i really just want that its clarified as male... i dont want any drama or whatever sorry

lizardlars said:
funny thing i did get 2 records because someone else tagged it as male/male few times and downvoted people who harrasses me BUT the one who harrassed me NEVER get any negative record

it just seems that E621 just don't like me whyever x3

i really just want that its clarified as male... i dont want any drama or whatever sorry

You could literally have the crow say something like "by the way I'm male" and it would officially be something we see to tag.

lizardlars said:
funny thing i did get 2 records because someone else tagged it as male/male few times and downvoted people who harrasses me BUT the one who harrassed me NEVER get any negative record

it just seems that E621 just don't like me whyever x3

i really just want that its clarified as male... i dont want any drama or whatever sorry

It's fine it's not your fault it's the awful rules of this site that even the creator of the site can't even follow.

Mutisija said:
https://e621.net/forum/show/226546

Stupid rules are still stupid

Ratte said:
golly gee

ok so just to be sure so I don't make a mistake again, we're supposed to completely disregard any and all text on the image stating that a character's gender and just tag based solely on the image itself?

if I'm right, then what if I wanted to find a gay bird image? would I have to replace any and all instances of a male bird with ambiguous gender, and just sort through the images manually, because the artist chose to make a character anatomically correct?

and wouldn't that mean all the images under this tagging sequence need to be corrected?

I'm probably just overthinking this, but for now, I think I'm more confused than when I started. 0.o

Ratte said:
I would recheck your link if I were you.

is the link broken, or does it break a website policy?
it seems to work for me.

also, thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess no system can be foolproof.

or at least, it can be, but no sane person wants to put the time and effort in to make tags like "anatomically_correct_male_bird"
managing that would be a fate worse than a fate worse than death.

Ratte said:
golly gee

Then by your stupid logic this should be male/ambiguous as well https://e621.net/post/show/811914/2016-3_toes-5_toes-3-3_eyes-all_fours-animal_genit but it's not cause you admins tagged it as male/female when nothing is present to say that is, that Rena is ambiguous but no according to your dumbass logic is a female. I'm done I need to stop before I have to go to the doctor again...

Mutisija said:
the renamon has feminine body and feminine voice....

That maybe a feminine voice but dudes can have feminine voices as well so that doesn't fly, and for all you know it could be a girly boy since they have feminine bodies so that doesn't fly either.

Mutisija said:
the renamon has feminine body and feminine voice....

Forgot add "There are no visible breasts, or female or male genitals so it's ambiguous"

this post accidentally created a storm of gender tagging confusion.

I'm worried every image on this site might need to be re-evaluated.
:/
but I'm certain if I went and did it there'd be some other rule I'm unaware of and I don't care to get any negative strikes.

so I guess I'll just sit quietly in this corner and assume the mods will take care of it.

Qualske98 said:
salty things.

chill for a second. I don't like the rule any more than you do, and now I have a permanent record scaring my reputation on this website forever, with no hope of redemption.

but it doesn't change the fact that it's not his rule. he's just enforcing pre-existing rules on the site.

the better thing to do would be to file an official complaint, with a suggestion of how to better the system.

qwop9992 said:
chill for a second. I don't like the rule any more than you do, and now I have a permanent record scaring my reputation on this website forever, with no hope of redemption.

Neutral records get cleared after six months or so (whenever someone gets around to it).

Ratte said:
That's a great way to get a record.

that's a great way to play god, throwing the banhammer for unpleasent truths^^

btw, following the rule, we all should retag the images and delete all artist tags and charactername tags, right? the fewest pics tell this kind of information. also subscriptions wouldn't count anymore (the 2 admins [which seem to be one. yes they stand over their own rules] mentioned it several times, that the written word doesn't count in this tag system)

It's bretty simple honestly, you have a male fucking an ambiguous looking thing. Accurate anatomy be damned, I bet the vast majority including myself don't know a thing about birds, so we'd see this as ambiguous.
This is an image not text board, so if the image says ambiguous, regardless of what the text says, it's ambiguous for sorting purposes. That said I can see that gay might be a helpful tag in addition, but I'll leave that to someoneelse's judgement.
It's kind of incredible how much trouble gender arguments cause though isn't it?

"artist disagrees with tags"

Best. Tag. EVER!

I love a good shitshow. post #130908

Soooo... judging by this logic, should literally ALL birds with anatomically correct genitalia (Cloca) be tagged ambiguous then? :/

I swear this rule is getting more and more frustrating with how it's enforced. Guess that means no more anatomically correct male birds are gonna tagged as such then.

qwop9992 said:
is the link broken, or does it break a website policy?
it seems to work for me.

also, thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess no system can be foolproof.

or at least, it can be, but no sane person wants to put the time and effort in to make tags like "anatomically_correct_male_bird"
managing that would be a fate worse than a fate worse than death.

A lot of the posts have nothing to do with your point, just birds that happen to be in an image, like in the background or something.

Qualske98 said:
Then by your stupid logic this should be male/ambiguous as well https://e621.net/post/show/811914/2016-3_toes-5_toes-3-3_eyes-all_fours-animal_genit but it's not cause you admins tagged it as male/female when nothing is present to say that is, that Rena is ambiguous but no according to your dumbass logic is a female. I'm done I need to stop before I have to go to the doctor again...

The renamon has a feminine face and body structure. It is tagged correctly.

momsprincess2 said:
that's a great way to play god, throwing the banhammer for unpleasent truths^^

btw, following the rule, we all should retag the images and delete all artist tags and charactername tags, right? the fewest pics tell this kind of information. also subscriptions wouldn't count anymore (the 2 admins [which seem to be one. yes they stand over their own rules] mentioned it several times, that the written word doesn't count in this tag system)

Using alts isn't going to help you much.

Character names are the only exemption from the general Tag What You See rule, and artists are to be credited for their work. Further-- no, I am not NotMeNotYou. He is, however, our lead administrator. We both enforce the same rules as we should be. That you don't like these rules is entirely upon you.

Genjar said:
Neutral records get cleared after six months or so (whenever someone gets around to it).

well now i just feel silly.

does the "tag what you see" rule not apply to words?

Hammerhai said:
does the "tag what you see" rule not apply to words?

https://e621.net/forum/show/226546

qwop9992 said:
well now i just feel silly.

Don't worry, you're not the only one.
I saw the new picture, thought that applied to all the pictures in the comic and didn't even know about this shit-show.

In the end I will just shop the image to remove the words I could care less about. In the end it's all moot.

Come on, guys. We all know that tagging is meant to deceive people looking for certain content, not give them what they want to find. We must remember that there are never any reasons to make exceptions to any rules, ever. We must autistically defend the rules we come up with ourselves until the very end, unless of course, we're admins who want to perceive gender a specific way on certain images. Forget all of the actual fans of this comic who know the crow is male, due to the explicit declarations in the comic itself. We must tag it as ambiguous, because as obvious as it is that the crow is male, according to our perfect rules, he is not, and the people looking up the male/male tag in hopes of finding this (as they can read text and interpret the universal mars/male symbol correctly) are wrong, and should simply wade through the ambiguous_gender tag because we say so. Let us also not forget that our gender tags stay the same through entire comics, even if no genitalia is showing on a certain page. But not in this case.

Ratte said:
A lot of the posts have nothing to do with your point, just birds that happen to be in an image, like in the background or something.

The renamon has a feminine face and body structure. It is tagged correctly.

Using alts isn't going to help you much.

Character names are the only exemption from the general Tag What You See rule, and artists are to be credited for their work. Further-- no, I am not NotMeNotYou. He is, however, our lead administrator. We both enforce the same rules as we should be. That you don't like these rules is entirely upon you.

It's not tagged correctly thanks a lot of males can have feminine bodies as I said before so that doesn't fly dear admin!

Qualske98 said:

It's not tagged correctly thanks a lot of males can have feminine bodies as I said before so that doesn't fly dear admin!

girly

Ratte said:
girly

This literally is restating what I said

Qualske98 said:
This literally is restating what I said

Then you answered your own complaint.

Ratte said:
Then you answered your own complaint.

Actually it proves that the post was tagged incorrectly.

Qualske98 said:
Actually it proves that the post was tagged incorrectly.

In the end, this is still going to be porn that you will or won't get off to. I mean, think of Rule 34. That site is absolute garbage. In comparison, even if there are rules that are stupid, this site is 10x better. Im okay with having to dig for the occasional image here.

Qualske98 said:
Actually it proves that the post was tagged incorrectly.

If a male has a feminine body (especially dealing with males wearing feminine clothing) then the character is tagged girly and male. However, if a character has no male traits and only feminine traits, they are tagged female.

Very simple. I don't know what about this you're failing to grasp.

It's not really ambiguous anymore if it says ITS MALE!!!!! in big letters.

Mutisija said:
maybe read the comment section

From th the comment section I've gathered two things.

1. Nobody knows what the word "ambiguous" means. There is no ambiguity on this page.
2. The admins are keeping the ridiculous "tag what stupid people who can't do any research see" rule out of pure spite.

Mutisija said:
https://e621.net/forum/show/226546

tl;dr: text is not taken in account in tagging

From all of this I've gathered two things.

1. Nobody knows what the word "ambiguous" means. There is no ambiguity on this page.
2. The admins are keeping the ridiculous "tag what stupid people who can't do any research see" rule out of pure spite.

It's ridiculous and it's not even consistent.
Someone earlier already pointed out a Renamon animation that was tagged as female even though there's no visible female genitals because Renamon "sounds feminine." What the hell. I have female blacklisted. What if the artist actually intended it as a male + girly boy pic? I wouldve completely missed it forever. But this completely UNfeminine bird with arrows pointing at him saying he's male can't be tagged as gay? It's just a big fat "Fuck you, we're not tagging the bird as male because that would be admitting defeat." at this point.

In fact now I have to wonder how much art I'm missing out on because something in it only LOOKS feminine and is tagged as female when it could be male. This is really stupid.

Ratte said:
If a male has a feminine body (especially dealing with males wearing feminine clothing) then the character is tagged girly and male. However, if a character has no male traits and only feminine traits, they are tagged female.

Very simple. I don't know what about this you're failing to grasp.

I'm failing to grasp why you would tag as something as female when objectively there is nothing in the animation that solidifies it as female. I thought you were supposed to tag what you see, not what you think you're seeing. I don't see a female Renamon. I see a Renamon that looks feminine.

rakushun said:
I'm failing to grasp why you would tag as something as female when objectively there is nothing in the animation that solidifies it as female. I thought you were supposed to tag what you see, not what you think you're seeing. I don't see a female Renamon. I see a Renamon that looks feminine.

...And if it looks feminine with no masculine traits, it gets tagged female. This isn't rocket science.

Ratte said:
Keep it ambiguous.

Ah yes, the good ol "make it harder for everyone else". Have you ever thought that it would be easier to tag by what the artist says? If I was going on something that was tagged male/male, and the image said "this is male/female" I would be annoyed because it is tagged incorrectly. I fail to see how the rule makes any sense. You have to think about this from a viewers prospective aswell as an artists. The artist wants his art to be gay, so he makes it gay, then has someone come and tell him "No you're wrong". No, thats not how this works. The artist labels the art how he/she wants it. So please, fix that rule. Add an exception for when the artist labels art as such.

Quiggleton said:
Ah yes, the good ol "make it harder for everyone else". Have you ever thought that it would be easier to tag by what the artist says? If I was going on something that was tagged male/male, and the image said "this is male/female" I would be annoyed because it is tagged incorrectly. I fail to see how the rule makes any sense. You have to think about this from a viewers prospective aswell as an artists. The artist wants his art to be gay, so he makes it gay, then has someone come and tell him "No you're wrong". No, thats not how this works. The artist labels the art how he/she wants it. So please, fix that rule. Add an exception for when the artist labels art as such.

Funny thing is that just happened to me, I do -male/male and when I saw thru the text in the image that this is indeed male/male I got slightly annoyed/bone killer as that was what I was trying to avoid. Rules might need to be changed or have more exceptions.

However, instead of fighting the admins, which would lead us to nowhere, we actually try to figure a way for a solution. For example; talk about how we can make an exception to the rules. Like if the creature is an ambiguous gender, and the genitals that are shown are itself ambiguous (hence cloaca), the text in the image would help tag the gender, or at least, if possible, have it tagged as male/ambiguous AND male/male. That way people that are turned off by gay intercourse don't have to revive their boner from the dead.

pornofhalo said:

Funny thing is that just happened to me, I do -male/male and when I saw thru the text in the image that this is indeed male/male I got slightly annoyed/bone killer as that was what I was trying to avoid. Rules might need to be changed or have more exceptions.

However, instead of fighting the admins, which would lead us to nowhere, we actually try to figure a way for a solution. For example; talk about how we can make an exception to the rules. Like if the creature is an ambiguous gender, and the genitals that are shown are itself ambiguous (hence cloaca), the text in the image would help tag the gender, or at least, if possible, have it tagged as male/ambiguous AND male/male. That way people that are turned off by gay intercourse don't have to revive their boner from the dead.

There is no way around the specific tagging because that how the system works. It is designed to avoid TWYK for now... but you CAN use description:male/male and purposely include male/male, in some context, in the description field to allow it to be found. It doesn't need to be male/male, it could be gay or etc., but the more specific the better.

The whole TWYS rule is basically 'death of the author' in a nutshell. Nothing of what the artist says matters, only what's illustrated in the pic itself gets tagged and nothing more.
Honestly if you have an issue with the tagging rules (Which, tbh, is understandable, 'death of the author' is a very bothersome thing, speaking as an artist myself) it's best to not have the comic here at all.

I love what Lizardlars is doing in the margins.

qwop9992 said:
if I'm right, then what if I wanted to find a gay bird image? would I have to replace any and all instances of a male bird with ambiguous gender, and just sort through the images manually, because the artist chose to make a character anatomically correct?

You could also try out using exclusive searching (-) instead of inclusive. e.g. -female but that can hide positive matches as well as that it generally eats up your 6 tag limit faster in practical cases but it's something to keep in mind sometimes. Or you could try searching for both i.e. ~male/male ~male/ambiguous.

Jayfiregrowlithe said:
The whole TWYS rule is basically 'death of the author' in a nutshell. Nothing of what the artist says matters, only what's illustrated in the pic itself gets tagged and nothing more.
Honestly if you have an issue with the tagging rules (Which, tbh, is understandable, 'death of the author' is a very bothersome thing, speaking as an artist myself) it's best to not have the comic here at all.

Not really directed towards you personally.

I'm not so sure the best thing is really to do that, of course if an artist wants their art not to be here then I can respect that, and luckily for them e621 is one of the most respectful archival sites you can find. But I'm quite certain that in doing so they will diminish their fanbase (even on their own galleries) and exposure to some extent. Also, before anyone chimes in with that not everyone cares about exposure, then why are they even displaying their artwork publicly in the first place? [rhetorical]

What many seem to not realize is also that e621 is not a gallery for artists to showcase their art, it's a heap of content from pretty much everywhere, and in order to find things in a heap you need it to be searchable, if you include artists knowledge, you will get (at least) two problems: Tags that are impossible to maintain by a third party, and potentially erroneous search results even if some search quality might be gained. This heap structure is also why sourcing is important, i.e. so that one can find the original artists/commissioners galleries.

The only way to solve this problem is probably to have two categories of tags, i.e. both twys and twyk. However I'm not sure if that's every going to happen, so in the mean time twys is what we have to play with.

The best thing to do as an artist on e621 is probably to educate oneself about why things are tagged the way they are, and to realize that what tags something has doesn't change the content itself. Or in other words; don't take the tags too seriously, people will still most likely find you, and by extension, if they like it, find their way over to FA/FN/IB/W/T/etc or wherever your main gallery may be located.

...and there are people in the world who actually believe debate can solve things. They must of lived before the internet was invented.

Ratte said:
...And if it looks feminine with no masculine traits, it gets tagged female. This isn't rocket science.

That's really fucking stupid.
I see no boobs on that Renamon. Not having boobs is a masculine trait.
I see no vagina on it either. Not having a vagina is a masculine trait as well.
Therefore you're wrong. This isn't rocket science.

Quiggleton said:
Ah yes, the good ol "make it harder for everyone else". Have you ever thought that it would be easier to tag by what the artist says? If I was going on something that was tagged male/male, and the image said "this is male/female" I would be annoyed because it is tagged incorrectly. I fail to see how the rule makes any sense. You have to think about this from a viewers prospective aswell as an artists. The artist wants his art to be gay, so he makes it gay, then has someone come and tell him "No you're wrong". No, thats not how this works. The artist labels the art how he/she wants it. So please, fix that rule. Add an exception for when the artist labels art as such.

I'm not too annoyed by the ambiguous thing for this comic because like 99% of e621 I dont have ambiguous gender blacklisted.
But insisting that this be tagged ambiguous when "ITS MALE!!!!" is all over the page, then turning around and saying that that Renamon has to be tagged female because it "has no masculine traits" is completely and utterly ridiculous. Like it having feminine eyelashes means it's objectively female or some crap? As if. It should be tagged feminine, not female.

The primary point of TWYS is context. Specifically, this is purely content without context. If you want context, there's the source link. Use it and enjoy. For the rest of us that aren't intimately familiar with the idiosyncrasies of obscure character X commissioned by Asperger Y from Artist Z and don't care, the flat chested fox with a vagina is female, because when we search for "female" that's the primary sexual characteristic the tag refers to.

Crow is male. Period. Stop arguing; it's ridiculous.

man, it looks like this got crazy XD
BUT! i must say my two cents on the subject.

"Tag what you see"
personally, while there are cases where not taking text into consideration annoys me greatly, i think that the rule is better as it is now.
Why? for one simple reason: DIFFERENT LANGUAGES EXIST.

let's say i'm searching and i find a comic in Japanese, Spanish, Russian, Klingon, or even Gliponian Majamanarwhatever.

The list of languages i know: English

the text is gibberish.

So what do i do? i scan along, look at the image, and go by what i see.

which doesn't include what i can't read.

oh sure, maybe someone will end up translating it at some point, but there are limited numbers of translators with limited amounts of time. Even taking into account the amazing advances seen in the Google Translate app (live text translation, image scanning, etc.) i doubt that in my lifetime we will have a universal translator for handwritten text.

**BUT I'M MISSING OUT ON IMAGE [X]**
Yes, you are.
you are also not seeing the 726,651 other posts that you hate.
If it really bothers you, there are a few options. for example, you could just go create your own tagging system that works perfectly in every situation every single time. Easy.

*OR* i hear tell that there is a handy little thing called a Set.
is something "tagged wrong"? well then, you can fix it!
make a new set, maybe get some like-minded people to help admin it. then you could know that when you included set:MyFixedTag that you would get what you wanted. you could even make it so your blacklist takes that "set tag" into account.

so in short:
is it perfect? no.
can everybody read every language? no.
does everybody know every character's "canon" gender? no.
does rule 63 help? no.
can you make a better working system ror every situation? prove it.

and now, after typing this up on a tiny tablet at 2am while not having slept last night, i give you my sleep deprived ramblings and take my leave.

who knows, maybe fully rested me will remember this and decide to re-type/post this in a less confrontational, more cohesive, better located, less run-on, actually proofread, formatted, and slightly bacon flavored way.

It seem like everything would be solved if e621 had two sets of tags, one the current one and one a twyk. Your standard could search from both, or you could specify which to search from per tag.

It's not just the porn on this website that gets me off, but also the community.

i'm fairly annoyed to find this made it past my filter good thing i don't fap till the comic is over makes it nice and easy to avoid blue balls

Changed to male/male because Tag_what_you_see and I see the text on the border

What a beautiful example of why this site's tagging system literally makes no sense. Is completely subjective, and yet you'll get in trouble for questioning it.

If you even ask for help on how to tag you'll most likely be downvoted, at best you'll be directed to the ambiguous as fuck FAQ, it's hilarious.

The idea that renamon is tagged female almost universally but this is ambiguous. . . welp it's interesting to say the least.

"Ambiguous gender" Christ people tag what you see is kinda dumb it's literally in the image here's a little thing I thought of to describe why tag wahat you see is dumb

"Oh that ice looks thick enough to walk on even though I have no knowledge of how Ice works but that sign over there says it's thin, FUCK THAT LETS WALK ON IT *falls in*"

MissChu said:
I love a good shitshow. post #130908

"Oh boy, people arguing online are hilarious!!!"

I'll never understand you people.

So, as an example of why this sites tags are fucking stupid:
>art with spike the dragon, no visible genitals
>because that would be a well known character to be male, it would be tagged male
>this image
>heavily implied both male
>tagged as ambiguous
This site's administration is the equivalent of the bush administration.

>Artist uploads picture
>Artist says its Gay
>Artist says in the image that its gay

E621 Admins at the same time:
>Use the same excuses
>Defy all logical reasoning
>"Tag what you see" apparently does not apply to the image stating that it is gay, but it does when tagging a language, or artist name, or a date.

Also e6 Admins:
>"We love our artists! They have the final say in everything, even if they want their images taken down for literally no reason"
>Heaven forbid the artist confirms if its gay or not cuz "muh rulez"

~Josef~ said:
This site's administration is the equivalent of the bush administration.