Words hurt, Toriel. ;_;

IN CASE anyone doesn't get the reference

I sympathize with Asgore. I really do. But there is a list of reasons why this is so true.

ZigguratVertigo said:
IN CASE anyone doesn't get the reference

Thanks.

Hiatuss said:
I sympathize with Asgore. I really do. But there is a list of reasons why this is so true.

as nice as he is the shit hes done, or technically hasnt done, does rather outweigh any positives hes accumulated.

Courier said:
as nice as he is the shit hes done, or technically hasnt done, does rather outweigh any positives hes accumulated.

In an act of extreme grief Asgore made a terrible decision he would never have made with a level head in planning out the breaking of the barrier and starting a 2nd war, illogically thinking it would do monsterkind justice. Toriel also made not the best decision in leaving him with nothing to be in charge of the kingdom and his morbid plan (knowing how much he values family and how this would basically emotionally compromise him and it totally did, see neutral route boss fight) and holding off any humans who arrived at the ruins so that he couldn't use their souls, also knowing that really she could not bear to force them to stay their whole lives even if it meant letting them get killed and providing asgore a means to break the barrier and get even more killed (this also happened all 7 times a human came down...her letting them through I mean, Frisk obviously made the exception of not dying).

From the moment toriel left him and onwards asgore had lost his kids in one instance and in poorly reacting to it (which can kinda easily happen when you just lose both of your kids like that) the woman he loves leaves him in disgust and his kingdom expects him to kill 7 humans and start a bloody war, which he probably wants maybe 0% of to actually happen. He tries to keep things stale and never obtain the 7 souls to leave monsterkind with hope (albeit false hope; what if he called it off and everyone just got riled up and even worse things happened?) while keeping deaths to a minimum along with consulting alphys to find a potential alternative to breaking the barrier if he found it appropriate in another instance. There was a lot to keep from happening and he tried to cover it all poorly after he lost everything he held dear to him.

There was no way he would've started the war on his own. Even though you can technically die to Asgore in the neutral route fight I doubt he would have used the souls. He couldn't even stand to look at you, reminding him of what he's lost in this critical moment makes him physically weak, and when he's critically injured you could offer him the slightest possibility of having a family again and he's filled with joy.

Toriel and Asgore both made terrible decisions trying to salvage this issue with the plan to start a war when they were emotionally damaged in losing their kids. Totally shitty but understandable on both ends, they're well known for being the kindest and most compassionate people ever, asgore never stops loving toriel, toriel absolutely despises asgore and won't even be associated with him. It doesn't add up for me. On top of that, while not as shitty as what asgore initially planned, toriel didn't really do anything to stop asgore's plans yet she called him a coward for not going out with the one soul and gathering the other six (like what you WANTED him to go out and kill and start this bloody war? no you didn't).

I guess the most reasonable conclusion I could draw from this is that while asgore's poor decision in his darkest hour was making the plan to break the barrier and start the war, toriel's poor decision in extreme grief was rejecting asgore so harshly, not willing to put herself in his shoes and maybe forgetting that the man she married was the complete antithesis of that plan; she was too busy reacting poorly to losing kids herself to realize that's also the only reason why he made such an awful call. So in that case, I guess it could also make sense for her to react the way she did initially, but I couldn't really see it being something she could reason was a good call forever, especially after everything was resolved and she had kids again, even if they weren't naturally hers (like how they treated Chara). Perhaps with Frisk in her life, being a mother again, she could reflect on the whole thing over time and eventually forgive asgore and the three could be a family. frisk could play a direct part in it mentioning asgore; they know how kind and reluctant to kill asgore is/was firsthand without having the same grief toriel did when she made that decision thus they could provide this different perspective.

...I'm sorry I've been thinking about this WAYYYYY too much ever since I got the true ending and I just want my happy goat family

It's a big, messed-up family, and you should totally make her tea, Asgore.

Either that, or the comedic "YOU TWO GO TO BED ALREADY!"

986bears said:
Wall of Text I skimmed

My reasoning for "siding" with Toriel beyond the fact between the two Asgore legit tried to murder me is:
While both did poorly, Toriel's leaving was more likely more of a way to get Asgore out of his mindset on war. He would miss the woman he loved and call the whole thing off but he did not and decided to keep everyone in false hope. At this point Toriel would believe that Asgore is intentional on War and brings up the question why after getting the first soul is it not already over? Even If He did go with this method she would still resent him for this behavior. However, Asgore chose to sit back and try and do nothing so he would not have to get his hands dirty. This is why Toriel calls him coward. He talked a lot of shit and instead of trying to correct himself or just do it he did what we saw him doing. His chance getting toriel back died with the first human killed for the barrier. Asgore had plenty of chances to avoid this but as you know, this did not happen. Think about how heartbreaking it is to find everything you thought you knew about the person you loved was a lie. Again, Asgore is NOT really the bad guy but if there is any truth about him it is that HE FUCKED UP. And I have to kick his ass just to get him to listen to any sort of diplomacy what the fuck man, you broke my favorite button.

Hiatuss said:
My reasoning for "siding" with Toriel beyond the fact between the two Asgore legit tried to murder me is:
While both did poorly, Toriel's leaving was more likely more of a way to get Asgore out of his mindset on war. He would miss the woman he loved and call the whole thing off but he did not and decided to keep everyone in false hope. At this point Toriel would believe that Asgore is intentional on War and brings up the question why after getting the first soul is it not already over? Even If He did go with this method she would still resent him for this behavior. However, Asgore chose to sit back and try and do nothing so he would not have to get his hands dirty. This is why Toriel calls him coward. He talked a lot of shit and instead of trying to correct himself or just do it he did what we saw him doing. His chance getting toriel back died with the first human killed for the barrier. Asgore had plenty of chances to avoid this but as you know, this did not happen. Think about how heartbreaking it is to find everything you thought you knew about the person you loved was a lie. Again, Asgore is NOT really the bad guy but if there is any truth about him it is that HE FUCKED UP. And I have to kick his ass just to get him to listen to any sort of diplomacy what the fuck man, you broke my favorite button.

I won't lie; since you skimmed my explanation I did a minor amount of skimming myself on this to keep it fair, but I understand that the big thing here might've been the fact that asgore didn't call off the war after toriel left him.

Two things I don't quite dig about that...for one thing I don't think toriel was thinking that out so elaborately, to leave the man she loved in his darkest hour to test his commitment to the war. In fact I don't think she or asgore had the capacity to really plan anything that elaborately at first when they had just lost their whole family; it got them too fucked up to say the least. I feel like they both immediately gravitated to what they thought was right. Asgore had his family taken away from him and he didn't want anyone else to go through that pain and wanted to root out the people that did that to him (not smart, hypocritical...but understandable). Toriel was disgusted with asgore for plotting to kill like that thinking he wasn't the man she married and left him looking to seal off any hopes of his plan working (zero empathy or gauging of partner's troubles, not something she could live up to do anyways...but understandable).

Now, perhaps after that, maybe toriel could've had that reasoning, but that gets into my other, much bigger problem with that idea. Something that, as a ruler alongside asgore, toriel was very capable of figuring out later on with a level head.

With calling the war off, asgore tried to not make things even worse. It sucked and it didn't stop those 6 humans from getting killed, but if I were a ruler and my people got all this huge hope from the idea of me starting a war, I, at least with a level head, would NOT risk just saying "actually guys fuck that" with the queen stepping down and asriel's death fresh in their minds, human resentment at peak passion. Like in the worse, bloodier neutral endings where you kill enough monsters to give them a fresh new reason to hate humanity, they would've started a violent rebellion, and that would've gotten bloody and people who didn't need to die would get killed. In fact, calling off the war, trying desperately to win back toriel while not thinking of his whole kingdom and what they hoped for...that probably could've been one of the worst things to do, outside of rushing to the war and getting everybody killed using the one soul. Despite probably wanting almost nothing more than to be back with toriel, he realized soon enough before he made any more terrible mistakes like that what the consequences and responsibilities are to being a ruler, and did what kept the death toll down to a minimum, which may be one of the most admirable things about him IMO.

Asgore's thoughts of revenge did not denote everything about him a lie. That is disgustingly unfair to anyone who has reacted poorly to tragedy. He was unlike himself between deciding on the plan and toriel leaving him, which probably was not a very long time. From there, he did the best he could to try and keep things under control and not get a shitload of people killed. Calling off the war when monsters were outraged over Asriel and they got this big moment of hope from the plan would've been dumb as fuck. It's really lame but there's only so much you can do to salvage that situation unless you get someone as dank as Frisk to get everything all chill again.

Could you lot PLEASE give some TL;DRs?

986bears said:
I won't lie; since you skimmed my explanation I did a minor amount of skimming myself on this to keep it fair, but I understand that the big thing here might've been the fact that asgore didn't call off the war after toriel left him.

Two things I don't quite dig about that...for one thing I don't think toriel was thinking that out so elaborately, to leave the man she loved in his darkest hour to test his commitment to the war. In fact I don't think she or asgore had the capacity to really plan anything that elaborately at first when they had just lost their whole family; it got them too fucked up to say the least. I feel like they both immediately gravitated to what they thought was right. Asgore had his family taken away from him and he didn't want anyone else to go through that pain and wanted to root out the people that did that to him (not smart, hypocritical...but understandable). Toriel was disgusted with asgore for plotting to kill like that thinking he wasn't the man she married and left him looking to seal off any hopes of his plan working (zero empathy or gauging of partner's troubles, not something she could live up to do anyways...but understandable).

Now, perhaps after that, maybe toriel could've had that reasoning, but that gets into my other, much bigger problem with that idea. Something that, as a ruler alongside asgore, toriel was very capable of figuring out later on with a level head.

With calling the war off, asgore tried to not make things even worse. It sucked and it didn't stop those 6 humans from getting killed, but if I were a ruler and my people got all this huge hope from the idea of me starting a war, I, at least with a level head, would NOT risk just saying "actually guys fuck that" with the queen stepping down and asriel's death fresh in their minds, human resentment at peak passion. Like in the worse, bloodier neutral endings where you kill enough monsters to give them a fresh new reason to hate humanity, they would've started a violent rebellion, and that would've gotten bloody and people who didn't need to die would get killed. In fact, calling off the war, trying desperately to win back toriel while not thinking of his whole kingdom and what they hoped for...that probably could've been one of the worst things to do, outside of rushing to the war and getting everybody killed using the one soul. Despite probably wanting almost nothing more than to be back with toriel, he realized soon enough before he made any more terrible mistakes like that what the consequences and responsibilities are to being a ruler, and did what kept the death toll down to a minimum, which may be one of the most admirable things about him IMO.

Asgore's thoughts of revenge did not denote everything about him a lie. That is disgustingly unfair to anyone who has reacted poorly to tragedy. He was unlike himself between deciding on the plan and toriel leaving him, which probably was not a very long time. From there, he did the best he could to try and keep things under control and not get a shitload of people killed. Calling off the war when monsters were outraged over Asriel and they got this big moment of hope from the plan would've been dumb as fuck. It's really lame but there's only so much you can do to salvage that situation unless you get someone as dank as Frisk to get everything all chill again.

You make a very valid point. Excuse me for coming off like I am trying to tell you you are wrong but No matter how I look at it whatever Toriel did could not negate the fact that Asgore dug a crater sized hole for them. Even If she stayed with him and let this plan go through, there would just be another slaughter of their people. I believe that is why she feels she cannot forgive him and calls him an idiot. It took the action of an outsider to fix things and even then Asgore nearly ruined it by trying to kill them. While yes I cannot completely blame Asgore for what he did, he STILL DID make a decision that nearly destroyed them all. Furthermore, if not for Toriel's influence on the protagonist could you honestly say that the pacifist ending would ever happen?

Hiatuss said:
You make a very valid point. Excuse me for coming off like I am trying to tell you you are wrong but No matter how I look at it whatever Toriel did could not negate the fact that Asgore dug a crater sized hole for them. Even If she stayed with him and let this plan go through, there would just be another slaughter of their people. I believe that is why she feels she cannot forgive him and calls him an idiot. It took the action of an outsider to fix things and even then Asgore nearly ruined it by trying to kill them. While yes I cannot completely blame Asgore for what he did, he STILL DID make a decision that nearly destroyed them all. Furthermore, if not for Toriel's influence on the protagonist could you honestly say that the pacifist ending would ever happen?

Ultimately, yes, you're right in that the call to start the war in the first place was the one fatal error that couldn't be undone, but it was right around Asgore's darkest hour where thinking straight and level-headed was probably out of the question. I will not deny that the one error he made in such a poor mental and emotional state just about almost fucked everything up if it weren't for Frisk; it was a terrible, shit garbage decision.

My whole thing however is that everything considered, considering that he would never do something like that normally and only did it when he had just lost his family and was mega traumatized, how he managed to salvage the situation as best as he possibly could after it when it would've been totally understandable to fuck up even more and try to call off the war trying to get toriel back which would've backfired hardcore, he's not beyond forgiving/redemption. It was an incredibly unfortunate, tragic situation and I don't think it's fair to blame it on him. How many of us would've fucked up harder in his shoes? I totally would've. I totally would've been desperate to get my wife back and call off the war and people would've rioted I would've fucked up extra large lmao

Toriel played a part in keeping frisk on the right path, I'm sure, but it couldn't have been just her. Not only did the six before them fail to make it through, you still have the option to kill as much as you want, even everyone you can reach. And if you mean the player, I'd say she had more of an impact on those of us playing the game, sure, but just like Frisk and the previous humans, any of us can and did reach our own conclusions in running the game. I mean, just look at how many of us don't want to do a genocide run. It's ultimately down to the player/Frisk.

Fara_Phoenix said:
Could you lot PLEASE give some TL;DRs?

I'll try. 1 Paragraph at the least, sorry.

Asgore mega fucked up by starting the plan to break the barrier and go to war; it just about fucked everything up if it weren't for Frisk. But I don't think it's right to blame him for it because he only did it after being emotionally compromised by losing his family, normally he would've never done that. Beyond that after toriel leaving him he could've shown more weakness to try and call off the war to bring her back but somewhere down the road before he could do that it came back to him that he has a kingdom to rule and that would go very poorly; he pulled himself together surprisingly quickly and did his absolute best to keep the death toll down to a minimum for as long as he could even while he just kept losing more and more of his family, that which is most dear to him. It was a terrible situation that's not easy to handle properly, blaming his one poor decision on him given why he made it and what he did after it seems super lame and shitty.

986bears said:
I'll try. 1 Paragraph at the least, sorry.

Asgore mega fucked up by starting the plan to break the barrier and go to war; it just about fucked everything up if it weren't for Frisk. But I don't think it's right to blame him for it because he only did it after being emotionally compromised by losing his family, normally he would've never done that. Beyond that after toriel leaving him he could've shown more weakness to try and call off the war to bring her back but somewhere down the road before he could do that it came back to him that he has a kingdom to rule and that would go very poorly; he pulled himself together surprisingly quickly and did his absolute best to keep the death toll down to a minimum for as long as he could even while he just kept losing more and more of his family, that which is most dear to him. It was a terrible situation that's not easy to handle properly, blaming his one poor decision on him given why he made it and what he did after it seems super lame and shitty.

Can I condense this further into "Asgore shouldn't have started that war, Toriel shouldn't have run away on him and, by collapsing the last bit of emotional support he had, prevented him from ending it?"

Fara_Phoenix said:
Can I condense this further into "Asgore shouldn't have started that war, Toriel shouldn't have run away on him and, by collapsing the last bit of emotional support he had, prevented him from ending it?"

I think it's more of:
Asgore shouldn't have started the war but can't be completely blamed because of his traumatic state when making that decision.
Toriel shouldn't hate him, but probably will because of what she had to do and what it put her through.
If not for Toriel Frisk may have never saved everyone.
It's mainly all Chara's fault. I think that about sums it up

Hiatuss said:
I think it's more of:
Asgore shouldn't have started the war but can't be completely blamed because of his traumatic state when making that decision.
Toriel shouldn't hate him, but probably will because of what she had to do and what it put her through.
If not for Toriel Frisk may have never saved everyone.
It's mainly all Chara's fault. I think that about sums it up

Yeah the bottom line is that everyone's a homie except Chara, who was a Mega Shitter

Welp, its official. This post has turned into long comments simulator

Somerandomguy1337 said:
Welp, its official. This post has turned into long comments simulator

I go hard as hell

I will defend King Fluffybuns to the goddamn grave he is as loving and adorable as the name implies

986bears said:
I go hard as hell

I will defend King Fluffybuns to the goddamn grave he is as loving and adorable as the name implies

Hate to break your enthusiasm, but this is never going to work.

Judging by the comments, someone has an opinion. :l

Fara_Phoenix said:
Hate to break your enthusiasm, but this is never going to work.

not without DETERMINATION

AnonymousTheGreat said:
Judging by the comments, someone has an opinion. :l

Wrong. I am the FactSphere. I hold only truths and realities in this measly flesh prison of mine

986bears said:
not without DETERMINATION

Whiteknighting never works, not even ironically.

That, and the Undertale fandom is reaching its apex. First signs of the collapse are already apparent, and soon it will descend into - what, FNAF?

Fuck the barrier, you could keep the monsters trapped underground with these walls of text alone.

ZigguratVertigo said:
IN CASE anyone doesn't get the reference

Aw now I have to down vote this for being a Gordon Ramsey reference

CamKitty said:
Aw now I have to down vote this for being a Gordon Ramsey reference

What the fuck is wrong with young ramsey

InsaneScout said:
What the fuck is wrong with young ramsey

He is a childish twat out to amuse the lowest common denominator?

Kind of like that Simon guy back at the start of American Idol

CamKitty said:
He is a childish twat out to amuse the lowest common denominator?

Kind of like that Simon guy back at the start of American Idol

There are dicks everywhere. Darn. Young Ramsey is pretty fly tho

986bears said:
In an act of extreme grief Asgore made a terrible decision he would never have made with a level head in planning out the breaking of the barrier and starting a 2nd war, illogically thinking it would do monsterkind justice. Toriel also made not the best decision in leaving him with nothing to be in charge of the kingdom and his morbid plan (knowing how much he values family and how this would basically emotionally compromise him and it totally did, see neutral route boss fight) and holding off any humans who arrived at the ruins so that he couldn't use their souls, also knowing that really she could not bear to force them to stay their whole lives even if it meant letting them get killed and providing asgore a means to break the barrier and get even more killed (this also happened all 7 times a human came down...her letting them through I mean, Frisk obviously made the exception of not dying).

From the moment toriel left him and onwards asgore had lost his kids in one instance and in poorly reacting to it (which can kinda easily happen when you just lose both of your kids like that) the woman he loves leaves him in disgust and his kingdom expects him to kill 7 humans and start a bloody war, which he probably wants maybe 0% of to actually happen. He tries to keep things stale and never obtain the 7 souls to leave monsterkind with hope (albeit false hope; what if he called it off and everyone just got riled up and even worse things happened?) while keeping deaths to a minimum along with consulting alphys to find a potential alternative to breaking the barrier if he found it appropriate in another instance. There was a lot to keep from happening and he tried to cover it all poorly after he lost everything he held dear to him.

There was no way he would've started the war on his own. Even though you can technically die to Asgore in the neutral route fight I doubt he would have used the souls. He couldn't even stand to look at you, reminding him of what he's lost in this critical moment makes him physically weak, and when he's critically injured you could offer him the slightest possibility of having a family again and he's filled with joy.

Toriel and Asgore both made terrible decisions trying to salvage this issue with the plan to start a war when they were emotionally damaged in losing their kids. Totally shitty but understandable on both ends, they're well known for being the kindest and most compassionate people ever, asgore never stops loving toriel, toriel absolutely despises asgore and won't even be associated with him. It doesn't add up for me. On top of that, while not as shitty as what asgore initially planned, toriel didn't really do anything to stop asgore's plans yet she called him a coward for not going out with the one soul and gathering the other six (like what you WANTED him to go out and kill and start this bloody war? no you didn't).

I guess the most reasonable conclusion I could draw from this is that while asgore's poor decision in his darkest hour was making the plan to break the barrier and start the war, toriel's poor decision in extreme grief was rejecting asgore so harshly, not willing to put herself in his shoes and maybe forgetting that the man she married was the complete antithesis of that plan; she was too busy reacting poorly to losing kids herself to realize that's also the only reason why he made such an awful call. So in that case, I guess it could also make sense for her to react the way she did initially, but I couldn't really see it being something she could reason was a good call forever, especially after everything was resolved and she had kids again, even if they weren't naturally hers (like how they treated Chara). Perhaps with Frisk in her life, being a mother again, she could reflect on the whole thing over time and eventually forgive asgore and the three could be a family. frisk could play a direct part in it mentioning asgore; they know how kind and reluctant to kill asgore is/was firsthand without having the same grief toriel did when she made that decision thus they could provide this different perspective.

...I'm sorry I've been thinking about this WAYYYYY too much ever since I got the true ending and I just want my happy goat family

Don't apologize. Thank you. -ALL MY HUGS FOR THE NEXT YEAR.-

Doesn't matter, this is canon. He is an idiot sandwich.
Deal with it.

986bears said:
In an act of extreme grief Asgore made a terrible decision he would never have made with a level head in planning out the breaking of the barrier and starting a 2nd war, illogically thinking it would do monsterkind justice. Toriel also made not the best decision in leaving him with nothing to be in charge of the kingdom and his morbid plan (knowing how much he values family and how this would basically emotionally compromise him and it totally did, see neutral route boss fight) and holding off any humans who arrived at the ruins so that he couldn't use their souls, also knowing that really she could not bear to force them to stay their whole lives even if it meant letting them get killed and providing asgore a means to break the barrier and get even more killed (this also happened all 7 times a human came down...her letting them through I mean, Frisk obviously made the exception of not dying).

From the moment toriel left him and onwards asgore had lost his kids in one instance and in poorly reacting to it (which can kinda easily happen when you just lose both of your kids like that) the woman he loves leaves him in disgust and his kingdom expects him to kill 7 humans and start a bloody war, which he probably wants maybe 0% of to actually happen. He tries to keep things stale and never obtain the 7 souls to leave monsterkind with hope (albeit false hope; what if he called it off and everyone just got riled up and even worse things happened?) while keeping deaths to a minimum along with consulting alphys to find a potential alternative to breaking the barrier if he found it appropriate in another instance. There was a lot to keep from happening and he tried to cover it all poorly after he lost everything he held dear to him.

There was no way he would've started the war on his own. Even though you can technically die to Asgore in the neutral route fight I doubt he would have used the souls. He couldn't even stand to look at you, reminding him of what he's lost in this critical moment makes him physically weak, and when he's critically injured you could offer him the slightest possibility of having a family again and he's filled with joy.

Toriel and Asgore both made terrible decisions trying to salvage this issue with the plan to start a war when they were emotionally damaged in losing their kids. Totally shitty but understandable on both ends, they're well known for being the kindest and most compassionate people ever, asgore never stops loving toriel, toriel absolutely despises asgore and won't even be associated with him. It doesn't add up for me. On top of that, while not as shitty as what asgore initially planned, toriel didn't really do anything to stop asgore's plans yet she called him a coward for not going out with the one soul and gathering the other six (like what you WANTED him to go out and kill and start this bloody war? no you didn't).

I guess the most reasonable conclusion I could draw from this is that while asgore's poor decision in his darkest hour was making the plan to break the barrier and start the war, toriel's poor decision in extreme grief was rejecting asgore so harshly, not willing to put herself in his shoes and maybe forgetting that the man she married was the complete antithesis of that plan; she was too busy reacting poorly to losing kids herself to realize that's also the only reason why he made such an awful call. So in that case, I guess it could also make sense for her to react the way she did initially, but I couldn't really see it being something she could reason was a good call forever, especially after everything was resolved and she had kids again, even if they weren't naturally hers (like how they treated Chara). Perhaps with Frisk in her life, being a mother again, she could reflect on the whole thing over time and eventually forgive asgore and the three could be a family. frisk could play a direct part in it mentioning asgore; they know how kind and reluctant to kill asgore is/was firsthand without having the same grief toriel did when she made that decision thus they could provide this different perspective.

...I'm sorry I've been thinking about this WAYYYYY too much ever since I got the true ending and I just want my happy goat family

Hiatuss said:
My reasoning for "siding" with Toriel beyond the fact between the two Asgore legit tried to murder me is:
While both did poorly, Toriel's leaving was more likely more of a way to get Asgore out of his mindset on war. He would miss the woman he loved and call the whole thing off but he did not and decided to keep everyone in false hope. At this point Toriel would believe that Asgore is intentional on War and brings up the question why after getting the first soul is it not already over? Even If He did go with this method she would still resent him for this behavior. However, Asgore chose to sit back and try and do nothing so he would not have to get his hands dirty. This is why Toriel calls him coward. He talked a lot of shit and instead of trying to correct himself or just do it he did what we saw him doing. His chance getting toriel back died with the first human killed for the barrier. Asgore had plenty of chances to avoid this but as you know, this did not happen. Think about how heartbreaking it is to find everything you thought you knew about the person you loved was a lie. Again, Asgore is NOT really the bad guy but if there is any truth about him it is that HE FUCKED UP. And I have to kick his ass just to get him to listen to any sort of diplomacy what the fuck man, you broke my favorite button.

986bears said:
I won't lie; since you skimmed my explanation I did a minor amount of skimming myself on this to keep it fair, but I understand that the big thing here might've been the fact that asgore didn't call off the war after toriel left him.

Two things I don't quite dig about that...for one thing I don't think toriel was thinking that out so elaborately, to leave the man she loved in his darkest hour to test his commitment to the war. In fact I don't think she or asgore had the capacity to really plan anything that elaborately at first when they had just lost their whole family; it got them too fucked up to say the least. I feel like they both immediately gravitated to what they thought was right. Asgore had his family taken away from him and he didn't want anyone else to go through that pain and wanted to root out the people that did that to him (not smart, hypocritical...but understandable). Toriel was disgusted with asgore for plotting to kill like that thinking he wasn't the man she married and left him looking to seal off any hopes of his plan working (zero empathy or gauging of partner's troubles, not something she could live up to do anyways...but understandable).

Now, perhaps after that, maybe toriel could've had that reasoning, but that gets into my other, much bigger problem with that idea. Something that, as a ruler alongside asgore, toriel was very capable of figuring out later on with a level head.

With calling the war off, asgore tried to not make things even worse. It sucked and it didn't stop those 6 humans from getting killed, but if I were a ruler and my people got all this huge hope from the idea of me starting a war, I, at least with a level head, would NOT risk just saying "actually guys fuck that" with the queen stepping down and asriel's death fresh in their minds, human resentment at peak passion. Like in the worse, bloodier neutral endings where you kill enough monsters to give them a fresh new reason to hate humanity, they would've started a violent rebellion, and that would've gotten bloody and people who didn't need to die would get killed. In fact, calling off the war, trying desperately to win back toriel while not thinking of his whole kingdom and what they hoped for...that probably could've been one of the worst things to do, outside of rushing to the war and getting everybody killed using the one soul. Despite probably wanting almost nothing more than to be back with toriel, he realized soon enough before he made any more terrible mistakes like that what the consequences and responsibilities are to being a ruler, and did what kept the death toll down to a minimum, which may be one of the most admirable things about him IMO.

Asgore's thoughts of revenge did not denote everything about him a lie. That is disgustingly unfair to anyone who has reacted poorly to tragedy. He was unlike himself between deciding on the plan and toriel leaving him, which probably was not a very long time. From there, he did the best he could to try and keep things under control and not get a shitload of people killed. Calling off the war when monsters were outraged over Asriel and they got this big moment of hope from the plan would've been dumb as fuck. It's really lame but there's only so much you can do to salvage that situation unless you get someone as dank as Frisk to get everything all chill again.

986bears said:
Ultimately, yes, you're right in that the call to start the war in the first place was the one fatal error that couldn't be undone, but it was right around Asgore's darkest hour where thinking straight and level-headed was probably out of the question. I will not deny that the one error he made in such a poor mental and emotional state just about almost fucked everything up if it weren't for Frisk; it was a terrible, shit garbage decision.

My whole thing however is that everything considered, considering that he would never do something like that normally and only did it when he had just lost his family and was mega traumatized, how he managed to salvage the situation as best as he possibly could after it when it would've been totally understandable to fuck up even more and try to call off the war trying to get toriel back which would've backfired hardcore, he's not beyond forgiving/redemption. It was an incredibly unfortunate, tragic situation and I don't think it's fair to blame it on him. How many of us would've fucked up harder in his shoes? I totally would've. I totally would've been desperate to get my wife back and call off the war and people would've rioted I would've fucked up extra large lmao

Toriel played a part in keeping frisk on the right path, I'm sure, but it couldn't have been just her. Not only did the six before them fail to make it through, you still have the option to kill as much as you want, even everyone you can reach. And if you mean the player, I'd say she had more of an impact on those of us playing the game, sure, but just like Frisk and the previous humans, any of us can and did reach our own conclusions in running the game. I mean, just look at how many of us don't want to do a genocide run. It's ultimately down to the player/Frisk.

Hiatuss said:
You make a very valid point. Excuse me for coming off like I am trying to tell you you are wrong but No matter how I look at it whatever Toriel did could not negate the fact that Asgore dug a crater sized hole for them. Even If she stayed with him and let this plan go through, there would just be another slaughter of their people. I believe that is why she feels she cannot forgive him and calls him an idiot. It took the action of an outsider to fix things and even then Asgore nearly ruined it by trying to kill them. While yes I cannot completely blame Asgore for what he did, he STILL DID make a decision that nearly destroyed them all. Furthermore, if not for Toriel's influence on the protagonist could you honestly say that the pacifist ending would ever happen?

986bears said:
I'll try. 1 Paragraph at the least, sorry.

Asgore mega fucked up by starting the plan to break the barrier and go to war; it just about fucked everything up if it weren't for Frisk. But I don't think it's right to blame him for it because he only did it after being emotionally compromised by losing his family, normally he would've never done that. Beyond that after toriel leaving him he could've shown more weakness to try and call off the war to bring her back but somewhere down the road before he could do that it came back to him that he has a kingdom to rule and that would go very poorly; he pulled himself together surprisingly quickly and did his absolute best to keep the death toll down to a minimum for as long as he could even while he just kept losing more and more of his family, that which is most dear to him. It was a terrible situation that's not easy to handle properly, blaming his one poor decision on him given why he made it and what he did after it seems super lame and shitty.

Fara_Phoenix said:
Can I condense this further into "Asgore shouldn't have started that war, Toriel shouldn't have run away on him and, by collapsing the last bit of emotional support he had, prevented him from ending it?"

Hiatuss said:
I think it's more of:
Asgore shouldn't have started the war but can't be completely blamed because of his traumatic state when making that decision.
Toriel shouldn't hate him, but probably will because of what she had to do and what it put her through.
If not for Toriel Frisk may have never saved everyone.
It's mainly all Chara's fault. I think that about sums it up

...my brain.
MY BRAIN.

FoxyBomb said:
...my brain.
MY BRAIN.

WAT.

foxybomb said:
...my brain.
MY BRAIN.

Lmao !!

XD