Shouldn't this have a tag for The Onion?

i almost feel sorry for him, but he really deserves it...

BOINK! said:
i almost feel sorry for him, but he really deserves it...

He DESERVES it? Dude, what the hell?

Asgore is in one of the most heavy situations I've ever seen. The fact that he's so...chill and happy despite what he has to do..he dies on the inside from what he's torn to do.

Nothing's his fault.

Although, I do question what Toriel said at the start of the True Ending bossfights..or wasn't it someone else?

Anywho, she mentions that he only needed one soul, then leave to get six more, come back...and free everyone.

I still wouldn't know what to do.

BlurredLight said:
He DESERVES it? Dude, what the hell?

Asgore is in one of the most heavy situations I've ever seen. The fact that he's so...chill and happy despite what he has to do..he dies on the inside from what he's torn to do.

Nothing's his fault.

Although, I do question what Toriel said at the start of the True Ending bossfights..or wasn't it someone else?

Anywho, she mentions that he only needed one soul, then leave to get six more, come back...and free everyone.

I still wouldn't know what to do.

Well Toriel could've mentioned that big open barrier-less hole in the ruins to the rest of the monsters and then they could've put all production towards getting into the ruins and building a way up that open hole.

Buuuuuut, you know...

BOINK! said:
i almost feel sorry for him, but he really deserves it...

literally he is the sweetest character in the game. More than Toriel. His one mistake was getting that plan to break the barrier started and that was in extreme grief. Every other way he could've handled the situation after that would've gotten more people killed. He actually has the chance to get back with the one thing he cares about most, his family, in the true ending but toriel shuns him hardcore, but he accepts it and is still happy because he loves toriel so much he wants whatever will keep her the happiest, even if it means not being a part of it, and he's at peace knowing frisk and toriel get to live peacefully, and perhaps also that asriel is still out there in a way.

I'll fight anyone who hates asgore. Melee Best of 5 money match, let's fucking go

BlurredLight said:
He DESERVES it? Dude, what the hell?

Asgore is in one of the most heavy situations I've ever seen. The fact that he's so...chill and happy despite what he has to do..he dies on the inside from what he's torn to do.

Nothing's his fault.

Although, I do question what Toriel said at the start of the True Ending bossfights..or wasn't it someone else?

Anywho, she mentions that he only needed one soul, then leave to get six more, come back...and free everyone.

I still wouldn't know what to do.

The actions of Chara pushed Asgore to a decision that, put simply, dug him in a crater sized hole. He made a choice in a traumatized state and could not do a thing to take it back without MORE problems possibly showing up. Toriel tried to cover for his shit but grew to hate him because of it, because She was suffering just as much as he was at the time and he just made shit worse. He doesn't deserve all the hate he gets because most everything after the declaration of war was forced upon him. The reason I believe that she brought up the "only needing one soul thing" is because at that point if he was serious about what he said he should have just did it and ended the pain. It's really one of those "emotion clouding rationality" type of things that honestly happens a lot in real life. I can't say I blame Asgore for what he did or Toriel for how she feels. Would you HONESTLY feel the same way about a person after they nearly cause everything you care about to be obliterated? Would you HONESTLY just take back a nation wide announcement about how you are going to save your people?

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. said:
Well Toriel could've mentioned that big open barrier-less hole in the ruins to the rest of the monsters and then they could've put all production towards getting into the ruins and building a way up that open hole.

Buuuuuut, you know...

Hole or not, you don't need a soul to enter, but you do need another to leave.

Whiskey Sours, failed ButtsPie, and a lot of tea.

CranialHeartache said:
Hole or not, you don't need a soul to enter, but you do need another to leave.

Through the barrier. you need another to leave through the barrier. which did not cover that hole.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. said:
Through the barrier. you need another to leave through the barrier. which did not cover that hole.

Actually, there is a line of text in game that states that anyone can enter the barrier, but none can leave it without multiple souls. Which implies that the hole itself is covered as well.

Gnollbard said:
Actually, there is a line of text in game that states that anyone can enter the barrier, but none can leave it without multiple souls. Which implies that the hole itself is covered as well.

where does it say that? im with stalker why cant they just use the hole, hell metta can fly so it wouldnt be a big pain.

Courier said:
where does it say that? im with stalker why cant they just use the hole, hell metta can fly so it wouldnt be a big pain.

The fact that no one did in and of itself suggests that it's not possible.

Monsterkind was trapped down there for what, millennia? You'd think they woulda done it if it was possible.

Courier said:
where does it say that? im with stalker why cant they just use the hole, hell metta can fly so it wouldnt be a big pain.

Asgore tells you about the barrier right before the fight with him. He even says "Any human that falls down" in his declaration of war. EVERYONE knew it was there but the barrier prevents exit but allows entering. 7 people fell down before the protagonist. The hole was never an option.

Hiatuss said:
Asgore tells you about the barrier right before the fight with him. He even says "Any human that falls down" in his declaration of war. EVERYONE knew it was there but the barrier prevents exit but allows entering. 7 people fell down before the protagonist. The hole was never an option.

Sorry for my intrusion. But it's actually 6 souls before the protagonist falls.

It gets worse when you consider why they're behind the barrier to begin with. The first monster war didn't go into too much detail, but it was motivated by fear and the racial divide. In the genocide route, the turtle shopkeeper tells you that he used to talk with Asgore, and they agreed that even if they could break the barrier then the humans would just start killing them again.

It's important to note that Asgore didn't just declare war, it is stated in different places that monsterkind planned to completely eradicate humanity so that they didn't have to live in fear of their own extermination (given they are typically so much weaker than humans). That's the running theme in the game. When fearful, when hurt, people's determination to do the right thing faulters. Asgore made a mistake, but his lack of determination was in not being able to face his people and tell them what he said was wrong. He didn't have the determination to break their one hope and dream. Toriel's determination broke in hearing her kinds will to war, and instead of staying to change hearts and minds she abandoned them to instead try serve as a roadblock. She then later refused to follow you even knowing you were the final child needed, because her own emotional grief overwhelmed her. Asriel's determination was broken over an eternity of life without feeling anything but fear of dying without a soul (and with only the mind of an innocent child to begin with). Alphys couldn't tell the truth. Undyne refused to let herself feel empathy for humans.

The funny thing is that other than the save/load effect of DETERMINATION, Frisk's main weapon is something as simple as refusing to do the wrong thing, no matter how much it hurts. He acts as a literal excuse for the big characters to drop their misgivings, as if he is stealing away their crutch-like excuses for their behaviour just by being an honest derpish little friendly child. The kind that might tug on your trouser leg on the bus and offer you a candy, or say you have a nice shirt, or ask if you're a superhero. Haha.

Had any one of the core NPCs held onto their determination in the way Frisk did, they could have been a key player that would have utterly reversed the plan to exterminate humankind. Had they opened up to each other and not tried to shoulder their own burdens alone, they wouldn't have gone so far down their respective destructive paths. And yet fear and hurt are powerful things. Even Undyne who is the most obviously determined was misdirecting her determination out of fear (and is actually one of the most likely NPCs to have executed the previous lost humans).

Asgore is far from perfect, but he's no villain. A bad king? Perhaps. A bad person? Nah. He does however make a great scapeGOAT though. :3

CursedLove said:
Sorry for my intrusion. But it's actually 6 souls before the protagonist falls.

Chara is 1 and the 6 other that are already obtained are the ones after him. Protagonist is actually the 8th person to fall.

Hiatuss said:
The actions of Chara pushed Asgore to a decision that, put simply, dug him in a crater sized hole. He made a choice in a traumatized state and could not do a thing to take it back without MORE problems possibly showing up. Toriel tried to cover for his shit but grew to hate him because of it, because She was suffering just as much as he was at the time and he just made shit worse. He doesn't deserve all the hate he gets because most everything after the declaration of war was forced upon him. The reason I believe that she brought up the "only needing one soul thing" is because at that point if he was serious about what he said he should have just did it and ended the pain. It's really one of those "emotion clouding rationality" type of things that honestly happens a lot in real life. I can't say I blame Asgore for what he did or Toriel for how she feels. Would you HONESTLY feel the same way about a person after they nearly cause everything you care about to be obliterated? Would you HONESTLY just take back a nation wide announcement about how you are going to save your people?

Yeah, Toriel's decisions were also entirely understandable considering what she went through. I don't really mean to bag on Toriel in my defending of Asgore; it was a terrible situation that neither of them deserved to go through and they fucked up naturally and understandably. Any preference I have towards Asgore between him and Toriel is how he understands/respects Toriel's decisions eventually knowing how much it hurt her as well when she didn't do the same, but they felt different kinds of pain so idk how fair that is either.

On the whole Grumpus put it much better than I could, mad props to them

CranialHeartache said:
Hole or not, you don't need a soul to enter, but you do need another to leave.

You DO actually need another soul to enter. The barrier works both ways. That's sort of the point. The humans created the barrier to make sure that nobody could enter, and nobody could leave. That is entirely the point of the requirement of a human soul + monster soul in order to pass.

Hiatuss said:
The actions of Chara pushed Asgore to a decision that, put simply, dug him in a crater sized hole. He made a choice in a traumatized state and could not do a thing to take it back without MORE problems possibly showing up. Toriel tried to cover for his shit but grew to hate him because of it, because She was suffering just as much as he was at the time and he just made shit worse. He doesn't deserve all the hate he gets because most everything after the declaration of war was forced upon him. The reason I believe that she brought up the "only needing one soul thing" is because at that point if he was serious about what he said he should have just did it and ended the pain. It's really one of those "emotion clouding rationality" type of things that honestly happens a lot in real life. I can't say I blame Asgore for what he did or Toriel for how she feels. Would you HONESTLY feel the same way about a person after they nearly cause everything you care about to be obliterated? Would you HONESTLY just take back a nation wide announcement about how you are going to save your people?

He didn't have to take back the announcement. All he had to do was get his one soul to pass the barrier, then get the rest of the souls needed to shatter the barrier outside. Do you realize that the humans he waited for, to fall down accidentally into the underground, must have been at least mostly CHILDREN? Adults don't just run around foolishly and stumble into holes like that. He's so much of a coward that he's willing to kill CHILDREN to achieve his goals. This is what he had wanted to stop. He had become what he sought out to destroy in this mission.

Grumpus said:
It gets worse when you consider why they're behind the barrier to begin with. The first monster war didn't go into too much detail, but it was motivated by fear and the racial divide. In the genocide route, the turtle shopkeeper tells you that he used to talk with Asgore, and they agreed that even if they could break the barrier then the humans would just start killing them again.

It's important to note that Asgore didn't just declare war, it is stated in different places that monsterkind planned to completely eradicate humanity so that they didn't have to live in fear of their own extermination (given they are typically so much weaker than humans). That's the running theme in the game. When fearful, when hurt, people's determination to do the right thing faulters. Asgore made a mistake, but his lack of determination was in not being able to face his people and tell them what he said was wrong. He didn't have the determination to break their one hope and dream. Toriel's determination broke in hearing her kinds will to war, and instead of staying to change hearts and minds she abandoned them to instead try serve as a roadblock. She then later refused to follow you even knowing you were the final child needed, because her own emotional grief overwhelmed her. Asriel's determination was broken over an eternity of life without feeling anything but fear of dying without a soul (and with only the mind of an innocent child to begin with). Alphys couldn't tell the truth. Undyne refused to let herself feel empathy for humans.

The funny thing is that other than the save/load effect of DETERMINATION, Frisk's main weapon is something as simple as refusing to do the wrong thing, no matter how much it hurts. He acts as a literal excuse for the big characters to drop their misgivings, as if he is stealing away their crutch-like excuses for their behaviour just by being an honest derpish little friendly child. The kind that might tug on your trouser leg on the bus and offer you a candy, or say you have a nice shirt, or ask if you're a superhero. Haha.

Had any one of the core NPCs held onto their determination in the way Frisk did, they could have been a key player that would have utterly reversed the plan to exterminate humankind. Had they opened up to each other and not tried to shoulder their own burdens alone, they wouldn't have gone so far down their respective destructive paths. And yet fear and hurt are powerful things. Even Undyne who is the most obviously determined was misdirecting her determination out of fear (and is actually one of the most likely NPCs to have executed the previous lost humans).

Asgore is far from perfect, but he's no villain. A bad king? Perhaps. A bad person? Nah. He does however make a great scapeGOAT though. :3

See, that's why it doesn't make sense for humans to just be able to pass the barrier going in whenever they want to. People earlier in these comments were arguing about the hole that humans fell down and how maybe the barrier could just be passed from the other side, but if that were the case then wouldn't the humans have just eradicated the monsters? I mean, they were down there for MILLENNIA.

Jorvalt said:
See, that's why it doesn't make sense for humans to just be able to pass the barrier going in whenever they want to. People earlier in these comments were arguing about the hole that humans fell down and how maybe the barrier could just be passed from the other side, but if that were the case then wouldn't the humans have just eradicated the monsters? I mean, they were down there for MILLENNIA.

Again, fear. The reason why humans started killing monsters (or why the war is assumed to have taken place) was because monsters can absorb human souls. Humankind aren't evil, they're just afraid. When they won the war, instead of deciding to outright exterminate monsterkind, they chose to exile them. When it mattered most, they put their fear aside long enough to give monsters a chance at life. After all that time had passed, even assuming people's fears suddenly started to skyrocket, it would mean sending people down into the underground full of monsters who can 'steal souls'. That would be just terrifying enough to stop most people from trying, and with the barrier in place they wouldn't feel a need to try.

Although, that could be the motivation behind one of the lost humans. It's worth noting that the humans realised that people who traveled up the mountain tended to vanish, and in the intro sequence we can see that Frisk is tripped by a vine. That could quite easily imply Flowey has a hand in gathering the human souls, and that the other lost humans had no intention of vanishing or entering the underground.

Neither monsters nor humans are horrible, but there is a mutual misunderstanding, anger and fear that drives the divide. As for passing the barrier when they want to? Dude, it's magic. A one-way barrier makes as much sense as a solid wall when it comes to magical energy fields. It only looks like you can get out, but anyone trying to fly up the shaft would likely rebound off a solid field.

That hole isn't the only way into the underground. There is the main barrier area over by the cave opening at New Home, and there is also the unseen fissure that lets the waterfall in from the surface world (that then pools at the garbage dump and flows down into the abyss).

(Also, apologies for not having previously used the spoiler tags on my initial TL;DR post. My derp)

the original:
http://femmetronic.tumblr.com/post/38931973329

Okay. I'm going to help debunk this argument. If I can.

First off: from implications I gathered from my Neutral-Pacifist run, the Barrier extended to cover basically all of the Ebott Underground. This included the hole. Reason we don't see the Barrier anywhere else is because of the natural walls of the Ruins. Also, to help support this, recall that Home is where the monsters started out from when the Barrier was erected. Why would they walk from where New Home is, create Home, only to walk all the way back to create New Home?

Second: it is stated SEVERAL times in the game that anyone can enter, but (at first) only a human soul and (later on) a monster soul, combined, could leave through the Barrier. The Barrier was simply erected to keep the monsters in, not keep anything out. The reason ASGORE needed seven human souls was because their power would be enough to destroy the Barrier, and release the monsters from the Underground.

If this doesn't help clear things up, then I utterly failed. I'm slightly drunk, so this may not even make SENSE, lol!

Uh, Asgore deserves all the shit he gets and then some. Honestly, in the Pacifist Ending he is mostly a major Karma Houdini.

I'm not even talking about him fruitlessly declaring war on a species that has no idea he exists and that he can't interact with; that's just him trash talking and talking shit because he's upset, whatever.

I'm talking about the fact that's he's murdered 6 kids. And I don't even mean Chara here because none of that shit is on his hands, obviously. And nobody really like, seems to acknowledge or care about it in a negative sense, aside from Toriel.

Like, does that shit come up ever like "Lol, remember that time you murdered some children, good times".

I mean, you can give him excuses and fears and prejudices and different culture social dynamics all you want, but then you're basically making humanity completely blameless for throwing Monsters down Mount Ebott in the first place, because they had a reasonably justifiable fear that a Monster could gank a single child and become a threat to the whole species or worse gank 7 kids and become a fucking God. Shit, it makes a partial genocide Frisk almost justifiable because up until he gets possessed by Chara who decides he's going wipe out humanity himself you could argue that he sees the threat Monsters pose and is doing something about it other than patting their backs.

I mean, if all he did was talk shit about like "Oh, fuck humans, they're sacks of shit" as a way to give his people morale or something to hate on or whatever so they can get through their day, that's one thing. I mean it's not healthy but at the end of the day it doesn't necessary make him a murderer or worse or anything.

But he finds a kid, and basically walks him over and says creepy shit like "Oh, it's just like going to the dentist" and then proceeds to kill them and stuff their ass in his basement, like that's some Ed Gein shit going on there. It doesn't go away just because he cries himself to sleep about it later. Like he could had totally went outside with the first soul he had, and found 6 other serial killers or something. And you could even argue that wouldn't be justifiable but at least it wasn't like "Let's wait for some innocent children!". I could totally see why Toriel left his ass.

Also, about the barrier, how is this confusing people? The game pretty much straight up says that it doesn't do anything to stop people from falling into the Underground. That's probably how the Underground got a reputation for being a place where children disappear and never come back. and it does nothing to stop 'things' either, that's how the trash falls into the mountain. The barrier clearly covers the whole underground. Yeah there's this one big hallway that it's easily visible, but it's presumed to cover the whole mountain or else any flying monster or anybody with a ladder could walk right the fuck out and I'm sure if all they needed was a ladder they'd be gone already.

Oh boy. Here we go.

I'm talking about the fact that's he's murdered 6 kids.

because they had a reasonably justifiable fear that a Monster could gank a single child and become a threat to the whole species or worse gank 7 kids and become a fucking God.

If it takes a monster absorbing 7 human souls to become a so-called god, but that 'god' is only just able to break the barrier put in place by HUMAN mages, then is that god really such a cataclysmic threat? Humans apparently have comparatively very low magical capacity, just as monsters have very low physical strength. If mere humans can achieve that power without any such soul absorption requirements, perhaps 'god' was not a literal term. The only reason the endgame bosses are of such strength is because of the nature of Asriel / Flowey, which combines both determination AND magic. The same with the genocide mode Undyne and Sans fights, which are notably more difficult than Asgore's encounter. The nearest thing to a god actually requires all of the souls in the underground to fuel AS WELL as the human souls.

Shit, it makes a partial genocide Frisk almost justifiable because up until he gets possessed by Chara who decides he's going wipe out humanity himself you could argue that he sees the threat Monsters pose and is doing something about it other than patting their backs.

Wait... it makes randomly killing exiled bystanders okay? Because their species can be potentially dangerous? Really? That's almost the justification used by Asgore to exterminate humans. If monsters turn into magically destructive beings when they absorb multiple souls, then in contrast ALL standard humans are like swarming herculean zerg berserkers. Consider that a mere human child is capable of completely decimating the entire monster population, provided it genuinely desires to see its plan through. Let that sink in for a moment. And then realise that there are plenty of adult humans that can organise and mobilise in a military effort. Maybe not with the ability to save/load, but consider that scale in physical strength. Again, this all ventures into lampshade territory.

Toriel

Yeah, no. Massive double standards here. The entire cast of major NPCs all did things in varying equivalence to Asgore but it just never draws much attention to it. If you're going to hold him so sharply accountable for what he did, then do it for the rest of them too. Sans has spacetime manipulation abilities (and the ability to monitor other timelines and retain memories between resets) but doesn't seem to intervene with the lost humans OR the impending death of his brother, much less give people vital information that may change the course of events. Undyne happily uses fully fledged fatal attacks attacks on you, as much out of prejudice as wanting to elevate her people, and is one of the most likely candidates as executioner to the previous humans. Toriel knows you're the last child needed to break the barrier but does not pursue you, and originally abandoned her people despite being the queen, because she was disgusted in their agreement with Asgore. She had a unique position to alter the course of their people and was even considered to be the most apt of the two royals, but was more willing to avoid conflict (and therefore responsibility). If she knows about using one soul to slip the barrier alone, why didn't SHE go retrieve the souls if she felt it was such a good course of action? Or suggest it of another willing officer like Undyne? Oh, that's right! Because like Asgore, she didn't want the war to happen, but they were stuck burying their heads and praying that the day would never come. Going to get the souls of 'deserving' humans would still just fast-forward to the point of human extermination. Monsterkind has their own will, as shown when Toriel attempts to retake her position as queen in the neutral endings and she doesn't always get allowed. Even if Asgore AND Toriel tried to convince their people otherwise, there is no guarantee they would follow.

The point is that the events happened because the determination of all the key characters had faltered. They got hurt, got afraid, or got angry, and as a result detached themselves that little degree that allowed them to make vital mistakes. All of them are good people, but under various forms of mental and emotional stress made vital mistakes. Rather than rely on their friends and associates, they try to shoulder their own ideals and burdens alone, and as a result become a cog in the great clockwork of fate. For the collectively awful things that they take part in, they each have their reasons. Some better than others. Asgore is a veteran of the monster war and was in the throes of grief when he made his mistake, undoing his mistake would mean crushing his people. Toriel was too soft and fled her responsibility more than once, and it may have been grief that stopped her from following Frisk. Sans may be held by limitations we do not understand (as well as game/plot design limitations, as having a genre-wise fourth-wall aware character behaving lucidly will ruin most stories!). Undyne is painfully aware of the hurt in her people and has allowed her empathy towards humans to flatline. Alphys couldn't handle her own guilt and failure, and facing up to it would mean horrifying the families of the amalgamates. Had any of these people held onto their determination, the course of events would have been drastically changed.

As I said before : Asgore is far from perfect, but he's no villain. A bad king? Perhaps. A bad person? Nah. He does however make a great scapeGOAT though.

Grumpus said:
Sans has spacetime manipulation abilities (and the ability to monitor other timelines and retain memories between resets) but doesn't seem to intervene with the lost humans OR the impending death of his brother, much less give people vital information that may change the course of events.

Hmm, my bad. He does however seem to intuit things between timelines quickly though, but you're right. That's just as likely to be a side-effect of his undefined abilities / equipment. Even so, he always appears to know more than he lets on, and indicates very early in the Genocide route that he knows something is majorly wrong with you. Going as far as doubting who/what you are, and is very likely to know you're a killer. He still permits you to wander and grow in strength despite this, and lets you face off against his brother alone.

As I said, much of this can be put down to simply wanting there to even BE a bad route. The alternate would be getting dunked the moment you leave the ruins, which is no fun. I'm just using this as a contrast to the judgement Asgore is receiving.

Okay, okay, I get it now, Asgore posts attract textwalls that make the Barrier look like fly paper.

Fara_Phoenix said:
Okay, okay, I get it now, Asgore posts attract textwalls that make the Barrier look like fly paper.

At least they are using the spoiler functionality at least :P

CamKitty said:
At least they are using the spoiler functionality at least :P

Yeah...

I think we need a board of psychologists, philosophers, historians and the odd political scientist or two to figure out all of Undertale.

Before that perhaps one or two coaches to help with my articulation, haha. Sorry about the TL;DR. My ability to condense things is garbage.

Fara_Phoenix said:
Okay, okay, I get it now, Asgore posts attract textwalls that make the Barrier look like fly paper.

The barrier is secretly constructed out of The Discourse

Fara_Phoenix said:
Yeah...

I think we need a board of psychologists, philosophers, historians and the odd political scientist or two to figure out all of Undertale.

I honestly wouldn't doubt it.

Courier said:
where does it say that? im with stalker why cant they just use the hole, hell metta can fly so it wouldnt be a big pain

On the monster history plaques.
"Anything can enter through the seal, but only beings with a powerful SOUL can leave."

That's why trash can get in too. And yeah, I'd assume that the barrier is fully spherical. Otherwise they would've dug around it by now.

GloveBoxofDoom said:
Shouldn't this have a tag for The Onion?

I'm not sure how to tag this. It obviously mimics Kelly's artstyle (including the artist self-insert), but would that make this a parody or something else...?

I don't think Asgore himself killed six people, however I think he has killed at least one. I forgot who said it, but one of the characters says something like "No one has gotten past Asgore" I think that implies that someone has gotten to Asgore. Even with this however, Goatdad still can be forgiven I think. However even if he is forgiven, it's up to Toriel to decide if she wants to be with him. With him showing up as a gardener in Tori's school in the ending. My headcannon is that emotionally, she's moved on, but still has goatdad around for her physical needs :p

Well, consider the description of the ballet shoes and the old tutu. It implies that at least one of the lost humans wasn't exactly peaceful. The royal guards generally do at least seem to recognise humans, and Undyne is pretty serious about her patrols.

Given Asgore's reactions and his words, it seems more likely that Frisk is his first execution. This is the kind of thing that works as an awesome little mystery, but would be cool for a prequel of sorts. Dream, etc~

Striderskunk said:
I don't think Asgore himself killed six people, however I think he has killed at least one. I forgot who said it, but one of the characters says something like "No one has gotten past Asgore" I think that implies that someone has gotten to Asgore. Even with this however, Goatdad still can be forgiven I think. However even if he is forgiven, it's up to Toriel to decide if she wants to be with him. With him showing up as a gardener in Tori's school in the ending. My headcannon is that emotionally, she's moved on, but still has goatdad around for her physical needs :p

This is an automated response to the use of the term headcannon.

Asgore se merecía otra oportunidad

The last time someone followed the exact strategy Toriel suggested, Chara and Asriel died.