Let's be honest, Frisk (along with everyone else) should've seen that coming from a mile away...

Still, pretty awesome.

I'm gonna be honest, here. And I don't mean this in bad or flamey way but... Toriel x Sans creeps me the fuck out. I mean I really want her to just get back with Asgore more than anything but I honestly cannot see Sans doing anything remotely romantic so seeing him in a relationship in itself is just weird to me. I know this is possibly the most canon but I cannot help how I feel about it.

Hiatuss said:
I'm gonna be honest, here. And I don't mean this in bad or flamey way but... Toriel x Sans creeps me the fuck out. I mean I really want her to just get back with Asgore more than anything but I honestly cannot see Sans doing anything remotely romantic so seeing him in a relationship in itself is just weird to me. I know this is possibly the most canon but I cannot help how I feel about it.

what if she got with papyrus?
he loves making puzzles, she likes solving them.

Hiatuss said:
I'm gonna be honest, here. And I don't mean this in bad or flamey way but... Toriel x Sans creeps me the fuck out. I mean I really want her to just get back with Asgore more than anything but I honestly cannot see Sans doing anything remotely romantic so seeing him in a relationship in itself is just weird to me. I know this is possibly the most canon but I cannot help how I feel about it.

As far as I can read there was nothing flamey about that. And hey, to each their own, and that's okay as long as you don't become an ultimate jackass about it. It's alright.

From my personal standpoint, I don't see it either. Good friends tops. Then again, I also don't see Toriel and Asgore getting back together, even in scenarios like fatz geronimo's, like they're eventually in good terms and care for Asriel/Frisk, but that's about it. The only one I can truly see is the one that's already canon, which is Undyne and Alphys. Unless there's a sequel with things happening out of what we can possibly imagine, that's about it with relationships.

Everyone ships what they want to ship, and it's alright as long as your not being a dick about it or try to shove it into everyone's throats. You're alright, don't worry about it.

Courier said:
what if she got with papyrus?
he loves making puzzles, she likes solving them.

Honestly, If I wasn't convinced Papyrus is absolutely fine about being friend zone with everyone I would say the only one who fits would be Undyne and that's only if Alphys and Undyne weren't interested at all in each other romantically.

MultiversalParadox said:
As far as I can read there was nothing flamey about that. And hey, to each their own, and that's okay as long as you don't become an ultimate jackass about it. It's alright.

From my personal standpoint, I don't see it either. Good friends tops. Then again, I also don't see Toriel and Asgore getting back together, even in scenarios like fatz geronimo's, like they're eventually in good terms and care for Asriel/Frisk, but that's about it. The only one I can truly see is the one that's already canon, which is Undyne and Alphys. Unless there's a sequel with things happening out of what we can possibly imagine, that's about it with relationships.

Everyone ships what they want to ship, and it's alright as long as your not being a dick about it or try to shove it into everyone's throats. You're alright, don't worry about it.

Thanks. Just really felt like I had to say it.

Hiatuss said:
I'm gonna be honest, here. And I don't mean this in bad or flamey way but... Toriel x Sans creeps me the fuck out. I mean I really want her to just get back with Asgore more than anything but I honestly cannot see Sans doing anything remotely romantic so seeing him in a relationship in itself is just weird to me. I know this is possibly the most canon but I cannot help how I feel about it.

I feel Toriel and Asgores relationship is sort of realistic, it happens all the time when a couple loses a child it puts a huge stress on the relationship, and the breaking point being Asgore killing (children? i think it was kids but im not 100% on that) after all the killings and Toriels caring nature each of those took a tole on her so i can see their relationship never being a romantic one again even if at some point she forgives him

now the relationship with Sans, he obviously made Toriel very happy. gave her something to smile about. if she was at the door she was probably grieving over the ones who went through there and are now dead, Sans showing up and making her laugh in one of her dark times would have struck deep into her heart. I think your partially wrong about him doing romantic things. maybe that wont be full blown romantic he would mix some kind of humor with it. some kind of surprise that would be romantic but when she saw it she would burst out laughing. Sans is a very caring person and im sure everyday with him could make her happy.

now if you really think about it between the man who everytime you look at him you think of all the ones he killed, or the man who rescued you from a dark helplessness and everyday would make you smile which do you think would be better for her

Too bad for all the crap Toriel gives Asgore, she's an outright WORSE ruler who then CONDEMNED THE ENTIRETY OF HER KIND. Even after a neutral run where monsters die here and there and you kill everyone but her(or her and Undyne), she becomes Queen and thinks it's a good idea to pass a law stating humans must be kept safe - it's met with such outcry she ends up with a rebellion and gives up the throne AGAIN.

She's such a hardline pacifist that if Asgore had gone to the Ruins and she stayed, she would've just shrugged and told all her people, now bereft of all hope from the deaths of her two kids, that THEY'D JUST HAVE TO MAKE THE BEST OF STAYING UNDERGROUND FOREVER.

Humans killed more humans for progress than Asgore ever needed to kill for the FREEDOM of his entire race. If Toriel had her way they'd be suffering forever there. What Asgore did SUCKED because he lacked the conviction to pull through and do it -quickly-, but it also paved the way for ultimate(and peaceful!) freedom. With Toriel, everyone would've suffered FOREVER.

Instead she treats him like pure fucking shit even though his plan saved their kind. And as KING, he did the right thing.

I don't ship it, but goddamn do I love puns.

Iamabasket said:
Too bad for all the crap Toriel gives Asgore, she's an outright WORSE ruler who then CONDEMNED THE ENTIRETY OF HER KIND. Even after a neutral run where monsters die here and there and you kill everyone but her(or her and Undyne), she becomes Queen and thinks it's a good idea to pass a law stating humans must be kept safe - it's met with such outcry she ends up with a rebellion and gives up the throne AGAIN.

She's such a hardline pacifist that if Asgore had gone to the Ruins and she stayed, she would've just shrugged and told all her people, now bereft of all hope from the deaths of her two kids, that THEY'D JUST HAVE TO MAKE THE BEST OF STAYING UNDERGROUND FOREVER.

Humans killed more humans for progress than Asgore ever needed to kill for the FREEDOM of his entire race. If Toriel had her way they'd be suffering forever there. What Asgore did SUCKED because he lacked the conviction to pull through and do it -quickly-, but it also paved the way for ultimate(and peaceful!) freedom. With Toriel, everyone would've suffered FOREVER.

Instead she treats him like pure fucking shit even though his plan saved their kind. And as KING, he did the right thing.

Actually, Asgore's plan would have eradicated their kind entirely. I mean remember that there were NO human casualties at all but a shit ton of monster died? You may argue that Asgore would have a human soul making him more powerful but, what soul would that be if he needed 7 to break the barrier? And even then, how powerful would it really make him? Post game you see the surface is modern day so I doubt having a human and monster soul would make you invincible. While Toriel's plan wasn't the best or happiest I think It better they be able to live in peace than rest in peace after getting brutally wrecked by mankind. Yes life underground was depressing but I doubt many if any would rather die than live there. Again, I have to say if not for Toriel's influence they never would have gotten a happy ending. If Asgore was lying in wait instead of Toriel that's a nightmare even the genocide run can't compete with. So I am respectfully disagreeing with you by saying Asgore's plan was a ticking time bomb and it took If not for Toriel's kindness would not have been defused and blown up in Asgore and everyone in the underground's face.

Iamabasket said:
Too bad for all the crap Toriel gives Asgore, she's an outright WORSE ruler who then CONDEMNED THE ENTIRETY OF HER KIND. Even after a neutral run where monsters die here and there and you kill everyone but her(or her and Undyne), she becomes Queen and thinks it's a good idea to pass a law stating humans must be kept safe - it's met with such outcry she ends up with a rebellion and gives up the throne AGAIN.

She's such a hardline pacifist that if Asgore had gone to the Ruins and she stayed, she would've just shrugged and told all her people, now bereft of all hope from the deaths of her two kids, that THEY'D JUST HAVE TO MAKE THE BEST OF STAYING UNDERGROUND FOREVER.

Humans killed more humans for progress than Asgore ever needed to kill for the FREEDOM of his entire race. If Toriel had her way they'd be suffering forever there. What Asgore did SUCKED because he lacked the conviction to pull through and do it -quickly-, but it also paved the way for ultimate(and peaceful!) freedom. With Toriel, everyone would've suffered FOREVER.

Instead she treats him like pure fucking shit even though his plan saved their kind. And as KING, he did the right thing.

Hiatuss said:
Actually, Asgore's plan would have eradicated their kind entirely. I mean remember that there were NO human casualties at all but a shit ton of monster died? You may argue that Asgore would have a human soul making him more powerful but, what soul would that be if he needed 7 to break the barrier? And even then, how powerful would it really make him? Post game you see the surface is modern day so I doubt having a human and monster soul would make you invincible. While Toriel's plan wasn't the best or happiest I think It better they be able to live in peace than rest in peace after getting brutally wrecked by mankind. Yes life underground was depressing but I doubt many if any would rather die than live there. Again, I have to say if not for Toriel's influence they never would have gotten a happy ending. If Asgore was lying in wait instead of Toriel that's a nightmare even the genocide run can't compete with. So I am respectfully disagreeing with you by saying Asgore's plan was a ticking time bomb and it took If not for Toriel's kindness would not have been defused and blown up in Asgore and everyone in the underground's face.

Whoa, I did not expect this to shift for a ship discussion to a game discussion overnight but, oh well. Here's my shot at it:

I could never get into the ship either, but whats worst is there tons of picture of Sans making Asgore feel like shit, now sans just likes to have a good time, he never intentionally fucks with asgore.

i wish asgore wasn't such a doormat though cause he can straight up call toriel out on shit too. but asgore is to soft hearted for his own good. its both a blessing and a curse for him.

Hiatuss said:
Actually, Asgore's plan would have eradicated their kind entirely. I mean remember that there were NO human casualties at all but a shit ton of monster died? You may argue that Asgore would have a human soul making him more powerful but, what soul would that be if he needed 7 to break the barrier? And even then, how powerful would it really make him? Post game you see the surface is modern day so I doubt having a human and monster soul would make you invincible. While Toriel's plan wasn't the best or happiest I think It better they be able to live in peace than rest in peace after getting brutally wrecked by mankind. Yes life underground was depressing but I doubt many if any would rather die than live there. Again, I have to say if not for Toriel's influence they never would have gotten a happy ending. If Asgore was lying in wait instead of Toriel that's a nightmare even the genocide run can't compete with. So I am respectfully disagreeing with you by saying Asgore's plan was a ticking time bomb and it took If not for Toriel's kindness would not have been defused and blown up in Asgore and everyone in the underground's face.

thats more or less just left up to how much power he would receive when he absorbed the souls. there's really no saying how much. saying that it was toriels kindness that saved everything isnt right either, cause asgore didnt change his plan when she left, and had frisk subcome to him he would have the 7 souls needed. basically everyones made the wrong move that snowball'd into frisk saving everyone with the right decisions. there's alot of luck involved with it. but toriel wasnt more right than asgore.

ThunderFap said:
I could never get into the ship either, but whats worst is there tons of picture of Sans making Asgore feel like shit, now sans just likes to have a good time, he never intentionally fucks with asgore.

i wish asgore wasn't such a doormat though cause he can straight up call toriel out on shit too. but asgore is to soft hearted for his own good. its both a blessing and a curse for him.

thats more or less just left up to how much power he would receive when he absorbed the souls. there's really no saying how much. saying that it was toriels kindness that saved everything isnt right either, cause asgore didnt change his plan when she left, and had frisk subcome to him he would have the 7 souls needed. basically everyones made the wrong move that snowball'd into frisk saving everyone with the right decisions. there's alot of luck involved with it. but toriel wasnt more right than asgore.

I wasn't really stating that Toriel was more correct than Asgore. To be absolutely honest, You can't pin the blame or really say one was worse because the situation was intense and who can say they never make mistakes. I meant both did a part that was beneficial and also destructive. And actually if you think about it if not for Toriel, Sans would have ended Frisk instead of also playing a part in the whole "Monsters can be your friends". Again, I am not trying to point fingers at Asgore. I am just debating this whole "Toriel is worse" thing. And if it's about Toriel resenting Asgore you do have to take in consideration they are divorced. Have you seen divorced couples be besties often? Feelings aren't always rational, but I do still hope for Asgore getting a second shot because he deserves one and Toriel deserves him.

Toriel just gives Asgore way more shit than he deserves. I can totally see her getting to be besties with Sans and they are pretty cute together, but I agree the shipping takes it a bit far. Whatever.

I feel like, at some point down the road, Frisk could tell Toriel that as someone Asgore tried to kill, they forgive him (and probably call him Dad by then), so she's not really got much grounds left to hold such a grudge.

Hiatuss said:
I wasn't really stating that Toriel was more correct than Asgore. To be absolutely honest, You can't pin the blame or really say one was worse because the situation was intense and who can say they never make mistakes. I meant both did a part that was beneficial and also destructive. And actually if you think about it if not for Toriel, Sans would have ended Frisk instead of also playing a part in the whole "Monsters can be your friends". Again, I am not trying to point fingers at Asgore. I am just debating this whole "Toriel is worse" thing. And if it's about Toriel resenting Asgore you do have to take in consideration they are divorced. Have you seen divorced couples be besties often? Feelings aren't always rational, but I do still hope for Asgore getting a second shot because he deserves one and Toriel deserves him.

my main issue is that asgore just wants to get back on the right foot and she's completely opposed to it. it doesnt seem "fair" i guess. and he's not really gonna say anything back. it makes the whole situation feel bad cause asgore get the least happiness of the happy ending. not all divorced couples are besties, but at least they'll or something. somethign akin to white pantera and Maria rivera's relationship (if you watched eltigre, if not ignore that)

i wansn't implying that toriel is more wrong either, just that asgore and toriel have equally done wrong. well Sans made a promise not to turn in any humans, but seeing the kind of work h always did, who's to say sans woulda done it anyway? he's pretty damn lazy. and that didnt stop Papyrus after all.

I at least hope they can work things out, even if they aren't together anymore, asgore would more than be just happy to be around her again and eat some pie. i wish there was an in game option to call asgore dad. that would be so totally boss.

Pivo said:
Toriel just gives Asgore way more shit than he deserves. I can totally see her getting to be besties with Sans and they are pretty cute together, but I agree the shipping takes it a bit far. Whatever.

I feel like, at some point down the road, Frisk could tell Toriel that as someone Asgore tried to kill, they forgive him (and probably call him Dad by then), so she's not really got much grounds left to hold such a grudge.

It's when people make Sans out to be a colossal dick to asgore, thats going to far, sans isnt like that at all.

Courier said:
what if she got with papyrus?
he loves making puzzles, she likes solving them.

if she gets with sans she kinda has to live with papyrus anyway i don't see him being able to survive on his own

6BigLuke9 said:
I feel Toriel and Asgores relationship is sort of realistic, it happens all the time when a couple loses a child it puts a huge stress on the relationship, and the breaking point being Asgore killing (children? i think it was kids but im not 100% on that) after all the killings and Toriels caring nature each of those took a tole on her so i can see their relationship never being a romantic one again even if at some point she forgives him

now the relationship with Sans, he obviously made Toriel very happy. gave her something to smile about. if she was at the door she was probably grieving over the ones who went through there and are now dead, Sans showing up and making her laugh in one of her dark times would have struck deep into her heart. I think your partially wrong about him doing romantic things. maybe that wont be full blown romantic he would mix some kind of humor with it. some kind of surprise that would be romantic but when she saw it she would burst out laughing. Sans is a very caring person and im sure everyday with him could make her happy.

now if you really think about it between the man who everytime you look at him you think of all the ones he killed, or the man who rescued you from a dark helplessness and everyday would make you smile which do you think would be better for her

Indeed, It could be a nice relationship but I think still hold Asgore in her heart, especially when we visit her house with his favorite flowers, pies, etc...

And I eventually can tolerate this ship (if Toriel wasn't so cold with Asgore) if the fanbase didn't transform Toriel and Sans into such assholes toward Asgore....
I mean, Sans and Toriel where we used to see good, carrying and nice, becoming those jerks to a guy who want to be better person, making fun on him, breaking his hopes, and even beating him....

It's just.....mean and painful to watch and because this damn fanbase and their damn ship, I'm still on the borderline to not like Toriel and Sans anymore...

Solo asgore..... asgore y asgore por siempre y punto no me imagino al vago de sans ser padre o ir con alguien

Hiatuss said:
I'm gonna be honest, here. And I don't mean this in bad or flamey way but... Toriel x Sans creeps me the fuck out. I mean I really want her to just get back with Asgore more than anything but I honestly cannot see Sans doing anything remotely romantic so seeing him in a relationship in itself is just weird to me. I know this is possibly the most canon but I cannot help how I feel about it.

Paradyce said:
As far as I can read there was nothing flamey about that. And hey, to each their own, and that's okay as long as you don't become an ultimate jackass about it. It's alright.

From my personal standpoint, I don't see it either. Good friends tops. Then again, I also don't see Toriel and Asgore getting back together, even in scenarios like fatz geronimo's, like they're eventually in good terms and care for Asriel/Frisk, but that's about it. The only one I can truly see is the one that's already canon, which is Undyne and Alphys. Unless there's a sequel with things happening out of what we can possibly imagine, that's about it with relationships.

Everyone ships what they want to ship, and it's alright as long as your not being a dick about it or try to shove it into everyone's throats. You're alright, don't worry about it.

6BigLuke9 said:
I feel Toriel and Asgores relationship is sort of realistic, it happens all the time when a couple loses a child it puts a huge stress on the relationship, and the breaking point being Asgore killing (children? i think it was kids but im not 100% on that) after all the killings and Toriels caring nature each of those took a tole on her so i can see their relationship never being a romantic one again even if at some point she forgives him

now the relationship with Sans, he obviously made Toriel very happy. gave her something to smile about. if she was at the door she was probably grieving over the ones who went through there and are now dead, Sans showing up and making her laugh in one of her dark times would have struck deep into her heart. I think your partially wrong about him doing romantic things. maybe that wont be full blown romantic he would mix some kind of humor with it. some kind of surprise that would be romantic but when she saw it she would burst out laughing. Sans is a very caring person and im sure everyday with him could make her happy.

now if you really think about it between the man who everytime you look at him you think of all the ones he killed, or the man who rescued you from a dark helplessness and everyday would make you smile which do you think would be better for her

Iamabasket said:
Too bad for all the crap Toriel gives Asgore, she's an outright WORSE ruler who then CONDEMNED THE ENTIRETY OF HER KIND. Even after a neutral run where monsters die here and there and you kill everyone but her(or her and Undyne), she becomes Queen and thinks it's a good idea to pass a law stating humans must be kept safe - it's met with such outcry she ends up with a rebellion and gives up the throne AGAIN.

She's such a hardline pacifist that if Asgore had gone to the Ruins and she stayed, she would've just shrugged and told all her people, now bereft of all hope from the deaths of her two kids, that THEY'D JUST HAVE TO MAKE THE BEST OF STAYING UNDERGROUND FOREVER.

Humans killed more humans for progress than Asgore ever needed to kill for the FREEDOM of his entire race. If Toriel had her way they'd be suffering forever there. What Asgore did SUCKED because he lacked the conviction to pull through and do it -quickly-, but it also paved the way for ultimate(and peaceful!) freedom. With Toriel, everyone would've suffered FOREVER.

Instead she treats him like pure fucking shit even though his plan saved their kind. And as KING, he did the right thing.

Hiatuss said:
Actually, Asgore's plan would have eradicated their kind entirely. I mean remember that there were NO human casualties at all but a shit ton of monster died? You may argue that Asgore would have a human soul making him more powerful but, what soul would that be if he needed 7 to break the barrier? And even then, how powerful would it really make him? Post game you see the surface is modern day so I doubt having a human and monster soul would make you invincible. While Toriel's plan wasn't the best or happiest I think It better they be able to live in peace than rest in peace after getting brutally wrecked by mankind. Yes life underground was depressing but I doubt many if any would rather die than live there. Again, I have to say if not for Toriel's influence they never would have gotten a happy ending. If Asgore was lying in wait instead of Toriel that's a nightmare even the genocide run can't compete with. So I am respectfully disagreeing with you by saying Asgore's plan was a ticking time bomb and it took If not for Toriel's kindness would not have been defused and blown up in Asgore and everyone in the underground's face.

Paradyce said:
Whoa, I did not expect this to shift for a ship discussion to a game discussion overnight but, oh well. Here's my shot at it:

We can't just see this as black and white, that kinda defies the whole point, there are things on both sides, so let's take it one bit at a time.

First: We do know there was a war between humans and monsters, we don't know exactly why it happened, who started it, how it went on, the number of casualties on both sides, how long it lasted, or even how long ago it was (we can guess Middle Age-esque, but we don't know for sure), so that's a lot we don't know head on.

Second: Chara, we don't know when Chara fell on the Underground, or the other six humans and Frisk, on how much time passed between and after all these events. We get a hint that Toriel and Asgore are very old since their aging is tied to Asriel, who died very young. Also apparently Chara plotted the whole thing , and that Asriel was the one who stopped his first chance at killing everything with a pulse.

Back-up plan: Asriel and Chara's death, hits both Asgore and Toriel hard, Asgore plotted to collect human souls and restart war against humanity, and here I'm just guessing all those souls give out a lot of physical and magical power to user but whatever... but Asgore lacks enough drive to do so, and those two things push Toriel away from him, and drive her to try and oppose him.

The neutral endings... in a way both Asgore (or Undyne) and Toriel are not fit to rule, Asgore is already explained, Toriel sees too much good, Undyne will see only bad. Funnily enough, Papyrus seems like the best ruler here because he sees humans as a 'case by case' thing. Which is actually pretty damn accurate nowadays.

So yeah, I can't really give a good judgement without an official prequel or sequel... So can we keep it civil now?

So... many... words...
It's like War and Piece over here...

The only ship that grinds my gears (the ones that at least make at least a tiny bit of sense I usually shrug at) is the MTT/Papyrus ship, and it's because MTT is kind of a jerk. If you actually go through the game and find out everything about him, then you discover that he abandoned his cousin in favor of gaining fame. Sure, in the Pacifist run he makes up with him at the end, but if you go for the Neutral ending where he gets put in charge then he turns everyone still alive into a weird cult that revolves around him, and people that are against it vanish, implying SOMEONE is killing them off. Given that he hires Muffet, along with some Mercs to kill Frisk, it's not much of a stretch that HE's the one arranging for them to disappear.
Would you want ANYONE you knew dating someone like that?