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Topic: [Beta] Help us find our transgender tags

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

The purpose of this thread is very simple: As finding what transgender tags we will be using requires discussion it has been split off from the big thread to be easier to follow.

As said in the other thread, Lore tags is a locked category, meaning only admins can move tags into that category, thus we want to ensure we use only the best terms we can find in order to help people find what they want.

We will also be looking into possibly setting up some implication structure for the transgender tags, as well as some aliases at the bottom to help usability and searching. This will include shorthands, wherever possible, and consolidation of terms that mean the same thing, if applicable.

We don't have a limit on how many transgender tags we end up with, but for the sake of searching and using them it is likely best if we don't add too many.

Very important to note here: Lore tags do not replace or affect the TWYS tags. This means, even if a character is trans, and has trans tags, they will still need the "regular" biological sex tags we're using already. The transgender tags are complementary only, they will not replace the regular ones.

EDIT: The bulk update request #13 (forum #) has been approved by @NotMeNotYou.

Updated by auto moderator

Currently seemingly best proposal:

Tags actually shown:

  • trans_woman_(lore)
  • trans_man_(lore)

Tags aliased to trans_woman_(lore):

  • trans_woman
  • transwoman
  • male-to-female
  • abab
  • dmab
  • transgirl
  • trans_female
  • transfemale
  • trans_feminine
  • transfeminine

Tags aliased to trans_man_(lore):

  • trans_man
  • transman
  • female-to-male
  • afab
  • dfab
  • transboy
  • trans_male
  • transmale
  • trans_masculine
  • transmasculine

Updated

Please be aware that we will not be tolerating any sort of personal attacks, spam, harassment, or discrimination.

Anything nonconstructive will be removed without acknowledgment, and if needed punished.

With all that out of the way: Please have at thee

Updated by anonymous

only two cents I can offer is tags to clarify how a transition happened. via operation or fantastic elements. other than that looks good to me.

edit: oh just thought of this maybe tags to include trans andromorphs and gynomorphs

ie male to gynomorph

Updated by anonymous

Oh, hey, convenient timing. I logged on just after this was posted, and this is something that you might consider me naturally qualified to comment on.

Re: current proposal to use "male-to-female" and "female-to-male";

Would this only be used for characters that are stated to be literally transitioning from the first sex to the other, and if so, what would be used for other cases? To elaborate, if your intent is to have tags for trans women and trans men respectively, MTF and FTM are sometimes (or always, depending on your definitions) technically incorrect, and you'd still need to account for nonbinary people. For example, I'm a trans man, but I'm not "female to male", because while I am transitioning to male, I've always been intersex so I've never been female. Someone else, on the other hand, might start out as "female", but not intend to transition entirely to male, or one could even go from one type of intersex to another.

As it stands, the TWYS standard goes by visible anatomical sex, right? So a character who's canonically a trans man and is drawn as visibly still pre-everything would be tagged as "female", but so would a character who canonically does identify as a woman while not being anatomically female as long as she's visually coded as female in that image. So, what's visually apparent in a single image (and thus gets tagged) can conflict with the canon on both esoteric stuff like gender identity and more concrete things like parts of the characters anatomy. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think that in order to properly untangle the current mess of TWYS vs lore, we need lore tags for physical sex as well as gender identity.

So with that said, here are some tag suggestions (besides adding lore versions of the existing male/female/intersex/etc tags):

For tagging gender identity:

  • man
  • woman
  • nonbinary
  • agender
    People might want to add more specific options like genderfluid, demigirl, etc., but those four technically cover everything (for humans, at least). You could append "-identifying" if you need to emphasise that they don't refer to anatomy.

Simple catch-all term that more specific trans tags would implicate:

  • trans

If you're going to have "male-to-female" &vv, you might want to syn the commonly-used abbreviations:

  • mtf
  • ftm

In order to indicate, in a single tag, both a character's identified gender and the canonical fact that they're trans:

  • trans_man
  • trans_woman
  • trans_nb

And to be fair, there should be counterparts to indicate that a character is canonically NOT trans:

  • cis
    • cis_woman
    • cis_man
    • cis_nb

Please make sure that the gender identity tags do not implicate any trans tags by themselves; they should be usable to clarify the identity of any character. And please don't just leave them out and force people to choose between either cis_[gender] or trans_[gender], or worse, have it as [gender] vs trans_[gender]. Separating them like that is often done to rudely "other" trans people, and whether they're cis or trans isn't even technically specified for the vast majority of characters to begin with.

Also, just in case anyone's considering it, please don't have the existing "gynomorph" etc tags implicate any trans tags, or "female"/"male" implicate "cis". Even "visibly_trans" could be on some fan art of a character who's canonically cis. This website is one of the few porny places I know of that doesn't currently reinforce the misconception that being trans automatically means I'm a "cuntboy", and I'd like it to stay that way.

Updated by anonymous

firephoenixx456 said:
only two cents I can offer is tags to clarify how a transition happened. via operation or fantastic elements. other than that looks good to me.

If there was a physical transition, wouldn't it more classify as transformation or surgical alteration? I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, the trans tags would be for gender identity, separate from any physical transition that may or may not have happened or be happening (there are gender_transformation tags, visibly_trans, etc, which fall under TWYS for this).

It does bring up a question in my mind, though. If a character is, for instance, a cisgender male, the character is stated to be a man, and all their depictions are of them as a male, but then there's a transformation sequence where he becomes female. Presuming there's no mind alteration (or would that not actually matter?), would that count as being trans, since by the end they're technically a female with a male identity? Or does it only apply when the character owner says they're trans, regardless of what else is known or seen?

As for the tags themselves, I'm hesitant with ones like male_to_female or female_to_non-binary, since they're rather close to other tags like human_to_anthro that are based on TWYS physical changes, rather than lore-based identity. I don't know what would be good, though... male_transwoman or female_non-binary, maybe? Presuming it should have the physical sex with it anyway, otherwise perhaps just transwoman, non-binary, etc.

Updated by anonymous

"Pre-op" and "post-op" might be warranted. Andromorph + lore:trans_man would only pull up results where the vagina is obvious, and lore:pre-op + lore:trans_man would return results where this isn't necessarily the case.

Edit: every gender tag having a lore counterpart makes this unnecessary now.

Updated by anonymous

Watsit said:
I don't know what would be good, though... male_transwoman or female_non-binary, maybe? Presuming it should have the physical sex with it anyway, otherwise perhaps just transwoman, non-binary, etc.

I don't see why the character's currently visible sex (which would be tagged with TWYS) should be included in the same tag as their identity, or in any lore tag for that matter. And besides that, any variant of something like "male_woman" comes across as willfully rude and kind of silly, so let's not... You bring up some good points otherwise, though.

Updated by anonymous

kyuuuuu said:
I don't see why the character's currently visible sex (which would be tagged with TWYS)

It's not necessarily visible. Lafcadio's example of an andromorph transman, for example, wouldn't be tagged andromorph if the vagina isn't visible. And I was working off the original not-at-all-serious suggestions of male-to-female and female-to-male, swapping the second sex-identifier for a trans one and removing the then-unnecessary to. In any case, it was just some impromptu suggestions.

Updated by anonymous

Lafcadio said:
"Pre-op" and "post-op" might be warranted. Andromorph + lore:trans_man would only pull up results where the vagina is obvious, and lore:pre-op + lore:trans_man would return results where this isn't necessarily the case.

There are a couple of potential issues with this suggestion, as it is. "Pre-op" implies that an (unspecified) operation is planned, but it may be that the character does not plan to get anything done, and whether or not that's the case, it may also be that their anatomy is actually different from what you think "pre-op" (or non-op) implies. In other words, if you want posts containing trans men with vaginas that may or may not be visible (and no boobs) then you should have the option to search "lore:trans_man lore:andromorph" or something like that, any post tagged with both "lore:trans_man" and "andromorph" should not have "pre-op" automatically added, and searching "lore:trans_man lore:pre-op" should return posts of trans men who are awaiting any kind of of surgery and may have any kind of genital/boob situation.

Edit: All that said though, especially given the effort it would take to implement properly, what's the benefit of having non/pre/post-op tags, anyway?

Updated by anonymous

I don't suppose we can get our 'cuntboy' and 'dickgirl' tags back, so characters can be 'lore tagged' with the right gender, at least? Instead of these damn umbrella terms... :c

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
I don't suppose we can get our 'cuntboy' and 'dickgirl' tags back, so characters can be 'lore tagged' with the right gender, at least? Instead of these damn umbrella terms... :c

I was under the impression that those tags just got renamed.
In any case I think the visible-sex tags are going to remain non-lore and TWYS, no?

Updated by anonymous

donteven said:
I was under the impression that those tags just got renamed.
In any case I think the visible-sex tags are going to remain non-lore and TWYS, no?

Both are correct. Cuntboy got swapped with andromorph, and dickgirl with gynomorph. They both still function exactly as beforehand and have not been redefined or changed otherwise.
All current visible sex tags will still stay and function just the way they currently do, we will just add complementary tags in addition to the existing ones.

Updated by anonymous

donteven said:
I was under the impression that those tags just got renamed.
In any case I think the visible-sex tags are going to remain non-lore and TWYS, no?

The whole point of these lore tags (as far as I can tell) is for the non-visible stuff. I jist figured it'd be easier to have a tag that basically says 'this character identifies as a cuntboy/male/whatever-you-want' rather than having to put it in the description box on each post.

Updated by anonymous

NotMeNotYou said:
Both are correct. Cuntboy got swapped with andromorph, and dickgirl with gynomorph. They both still function exactly as beforehand and have not been redefined or changed otherwise.

Those tags never needed to be changed, frankly. I still don't understand why it was done... maybe some sort of 'anti-non-binary-folk' sentiment within the site management?

Updated by anonymous

I guess I was a bit naive to think an update all about allowing people to express their characters identity correctly would actually mean that.

Updated by anonymous

If the purpose of these tags is to simply provide more background/lore about the gender identities of the characters present in the image, then look no further than the terminology already commonly used in the trans community:

trans_woman
trans_man
non-binary
agender

Anything regarding their appearance (which includes mastectomy scars, neovagina scarring, whether or not they've opted for SRS, how the character might appear versus how they identify, etc) should be covered by TWYS, yeah? Lore & visual-based tags can all exist separately just fine.

I'm pretty much parroting what kyuuuuu said here lol

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
Those tags never needed to be changed, frankly. I still don't understand why it was done... maybe some sort of 'anti-non-binary-folk' sentiment within the site management?

This is not really the place for this discussion. But to give you a quick answer: It was changed because a lot of people asked for it to be changed, and a lot of people are happy about the change. If you'd like to talk about Andromorph and gynomorph further, why don't you send me a message on the site? I feel like you might misunderstand a bit, and I'd love to help clear things up. We're friendly (mostly) and (mostly) don't bite.

Updated by anonymous

I definitely like this more than the last tag change.

Personally I think the tags should be trans_woman, trans_man, non_binary, etc. And have those imply the tags mtf, ftm, etc.
I don't like being called mtf, because that implies I was once male, which many trans women do not like, and vice versa.

Updated by anonymous

Sharkiiie said:
Personally I think the tags should be trans_woman, trans_man, non_binary, etc. And have those imply the tags mtf, ftm, etc.
I don't like being called mtf, because that implies I was once male, which many trans women do not like, and vice versa.

I think what you meant is that you'd like 'mtf' to be ALIASED to 'trans_woman'.
An implication 'mtf'->'trans_woman' means that if someone writes 'mtf', both 'mtf' and 'trans_woman' appear as tags, similarly to 'canine_penis'->'penis'.
An alias means that they're replaceable (as in: you can search by both) but only 'trans_woman' appears in tags - which is both what you seem to prefer, and what makes more sense (because they have the same meaning, there's no reason to display both... unless we take into account some agender creatures that are given a dick/vagina?)

I don't have any personal investment in which (whether 'mtf'/'male_to_female' or 'trans_woman') should be displayed, but your reasoning makes sense to me.
However, i'd make one minor change:
Make it 'trans_female', not 'trans_woman', because 'woman' is a human female, and thus doesn't apply for non-human characters, of which there's... many here.

NotMeNotYou said:
All current visible sex tags will still stay and function just the way they currently do, we will just add complementary tags in addition to the existing ones.

What, I think, would make Mako happy, is adding something like a lore tag 'self-identified_cuntboy' to distinguish from the regular/TWYS cuntboy/gynoandromorph.

Updated by anonymous

Shingen said:
What, I think, would make Mako happy, is adding something like a lore tag 'self-identified_cuntboy' to distinguish from the regular/TWYS cuntboy/gynomorph.

YES.
As I said before, this 'gynomorph' term is an umbrella, it encompasses cuntboys, trans folk, and flat-chested females. The 'lore' tags should be more accurate than that, so we should have something like 'lore_gender:cuntboy', 'lore_gender:female', etc etc.

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
YES.
As I said before, this 'gynomorph' term is an umbrella, it encompasses cuntboys, trans folk, and flat-chested females. The 'lore' tags should be more accurate than that, so we should have something like 'lore_gender:cuntboy', 'lore_gender:female', etc etc.

This was actually mentioned in the other thread,

NotMeNotYou said:
However, I did forget to mention we will also be adding lore version of all gender tags (male, female, andromorph, gynomorph, herm, maleherm, neuter) in addition to the already existing ones.

...

NotMeNotYou said:
The idea is to have all lore tags appended with _(lore) to distinguish them from the regular ones. This would mean that female and female_(lore) would both exist at the same time, and can be used independently.

So there's a distinction between three different sets of tags: visibly-verifiable sex (current TWYS tags), lore-based TWYK sex tags (e.g. a male character being tagged male_(lore) even if you can't see his gonads), and transgender tags (trans_man, non-binary, etc).

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
YES.
As I said before, this 'gynomorph' term is an umbrella, it encompasses cuntboys, trans folk, and flat-chested females.

Ah yeah, that's incorrect (and shows how the terms can be confusing, since you exactly reversed the meaning).

gynomorph == female - vagina + penis (which, AFAICS, doesn't require further levels of discrimination)

andromorph == male - penis + vagina (in other words, visually indistinguishable from "cuntboys, trans folk, and flat-chested females.")

Updated by anonymous

Watsit said:
This was actually mentioned in the other thread]
yeah, that's what i was just about to say
the thing is, NMNY mentions [TWYS gender]_(lore) tags, but existence of andromorph_(lore) does not satisfy someone like Mako, who clearly wants it to say 'cuntboy', and i'm not sure that is planned as well.

savageorange said:
Ah yeah, that's incorrect (and shows how the terms can be confusing, since you exactly reversed the meaning).

gynomorph == female - vagina + penis (which, AFAICS, doesn't require further levels of discrimination)

andromorph == male - penis + vagina (in other words, visually indistinguishable from "cuntboys, trans folk, and flat-chested females.")

i'm pretty sure Mako just accidentally kinda copied my mistake from my previous message (and literally quoted that mistake and message in theirs), that's irrelevant.

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
Ah yeah, that's incorrect (and shows how the terms can be confusing, since you exactly reversed the meaning).

gynomorph == female - vagina + penis (which, AFAICS, doesn't require further levels of discrimination)

andromorph == male - penis + vagina (in other words, visually indistinguishable from "cuntboys, trans folk, and flat-chested females.")

I swear I mentioned before I can't remember which of these terms is which. It's another reason why I dislike them so much. XD
Still, I think my earlier comment at least made sense (even if the definition was wrong). X3

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
I swear I mentioned before I can't remember which of these terms is which. It's another reason why I dislike them so much. XD
Still, I think my earlier comment at least made sense (even if the definition was wrong). X3

I imagine there will be aliases in place, so you can still tag or search for cuntboy or cuntboy_(lore) and it will do the expected thing.

Updated by anonymous

Shingen said:
I think what you meant is that you'd like 'mtf' to be ALIASED to 'trans_woman'.
An implication 'mtf'->'trans_woman' means that if someone writes 'mtf', both 'mtf' and 'trans_woman' appear as tags, similarly to 'canine_penis'->'penis'.
An alias means that they're replaceable (as in: you can search by both) but only 'trans_woman' appears in tags - which is both what you seem to prefer, and what makes more sense (because they have the same meaning, there's no reason to display both... unless we take into account some agender creatures that are given a dick/vagina?)

I don't have any personal investment in which (whether 'mtf'/'male_to_female' or 'trans_woman') should be displayed, but your reasoning makes sense to me.
However, i'd make one minor change:
Make it 'trans_female', not 'trans_woman', because 'woman' is a human female, and thus doesn't apply for non-human characters, of which there's... many here.

Yeah, I meant aliased. I forgot the wordage e6 uses. I was meaning to say we should probably use trans_woman, etc. as the primary tag that is displayed, and have mtf, etc. aliased to that tag.

I personally prefer trans_woman over trans_female, whichever is decided can be another alias as well.

Updated by anonymous

Watsit said:
I imagine there will be aliases in place, so you can still tag or search for cuntboy or cuntboy_(lore) and it will do the expected thing.

but the expected thing here is not being-able-to-search-for-the-character-using-this-tag-through-an-alias, it's about this tag being displayed as written here, to describe precisely how the character owner wants their character to be described.

Updated by anonymous

+1 for trans_woman, trans_man, non-binary/trans_nb, and agender with appropriate aliases (mtf/ftm) where needed. Indifferent on the classification of cisgender tags; perhaps they could at least exist as working aliases for edge cases?

Updated by anonymous

Big agree with most everything that Kyuuuuu said,trans_man trans_woman and trans_nb more or less is all I think some of us ever really even asked for to begin with so those are useful. Im also fine with the same but cis_* for non trans characters. After all if these also work for blacklist or search purposes it could be handy to search -cis_* or -trans_*

Rather than MTF or FTM however because on site have a connotation of transformation, so I would instead champion AMAB and AFAB (OR DMAB/DFAB if people prefer Designated to Assigned. They mean the same thing but Designated has a lot less stigma for some people)

Otherwise this is pretty simple to work with I think and its pretty exciting that this is happening.

Updated by anonymous

Watsit said:
I imagine there will be aliases in place, so you can still tag or search for cuntboy or cuntboy_(lore) and it will do the expected thing.

Those aliases are already in place, you can search 'cuntboy' and get accurate results. But like Shingen said...

Shingen said:
but the expected thing here is not being-able-to-search-for-the-character-using-this-tag-through-an-alias, it's about this tag being displayed as written here, to describe precisely how the character owner wants their character to be described.

... the point isn't aliasing or making sure I can find my own art with the right tag. It's to have the right gender tag displayed.
I hate to be a snowflake, but if I gotta respect everyone elses gender then they gotta respect mine, dangit! XD

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
Those aliases are already in place, you can search 'cuntboy' and get accurate results. But like Shingen said...

... the point isn't aliasing or making sure I can find my own art with the right tag. It's to have the right gender tag displayed.
I hate to be a snowflake, but if I gotta respect everyone elses gender then they gotta respect mine, dangit! XD

In what way is your gender being disrespected? I dont mean to sound rude but as to my knowledge the new tags would encompass those gender differences.

Updated by anonymous

Demesejha said:
In what way is your gender being disrespected? I dont mean to sound rude but as to my knowledge the new tags would encompass those gender differences.

It's being disrespected because they replaced it with 'gynomorph', which is an umbrella term that includes flat chested females and trans people.

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
It's being disrespected because they replaced it with 'gynomorph', which is an umbrella term that includes flat chested females and trans people.

For this site, 'andromorph' is exactly the same as 'cuntboy'. Any situation in which andromorph applies, cuntboy would equally apply. It's just a less crass word to reference the same concept. Also, when talking about the lore tags, andromorph_(lore) would not include flat-chested female characters by definition; if a character is female-identified, it wouldn't be andromorph-identified, and vice-versa. Additionally, the andromorph_(lore) tag would be wholly separate from any trans tags, so an andromorph character can still be tagged as cis or trans as appropriate.

edit -- fixed tag/term

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
It's being disrespected because they replaced it with 'gynomorph', which is an umbrella term that includes flat chested females and trans people.

I don't mean to be rude but, this argument feels, in itself intentionally disingenuous. If not outwardly malicious.

"Dickgirl" is not a gender. It was a tag that was used to describe trans and intersex bodies. And while some people may have used it to describe themselves IRL, it was still a "description" not an identity nor is it a "gender" anymore than clovergender or doggender or any of that other disingenous catfishing nonsense was.

Furthermore, Gynomorph doesn't describe flat chested females, gynomorph is the term for trans women, Literally "Female Shaped". Andromorph is the term for trans men. IE: Boys with vaginas, Literally "Man Shaped" It also isn't used for flat chested girls, that's just incorrect tagging.

Either youve been sincerely misinformed some way or this argument is bad faith.

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
It's being disrespected because they replaced it with 'gynomorph', which is an umbrella term that includes flat chested females and trans people.

EDIT: s/gynomorph/andromorph/g

Neither cuntboy nor andromorph are umbrella tags, within the context of TWYS (in which it is impossible to discriminate between your stated three categories). They can only be considered umbrella within the context of lore (in which it is possible to discriminate between your stated three categories).

cuntboy had the exact same meaning within TWYS as andromorph.
That's because TWYS is purely visual. It doesn't say anything about mental experience, identification, or non-obvious physical facts. cuntboy did not imply that the character identified themselves as a cuntboy, nor does andromorph imply that the character identifies themselves as a andromorph. Within TWYS, those three categories are in fact the exact same thing (so they are genuinely ONE category).

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
Neither cuntboy nor gynomorph are umbrella tags, within the context of TWYS (in which it is impossible to discriminate between your stated three categories). They can only be considered umbrella within the context of lore (in which it is possible to discriminate between your stated three categories).

cuntboy had the exact same meaning within TWYS as gynomorph.
That's because TWYS is purely visual. It doesn't say anything about mental experience, identification, or non-obvious physical facts. cuntboy did not imply that the character identified themselves as a cuntboy, nor does gynomorph imply that the character identifies themselves as a gynomorph. Within TWYS, those three categories are in fact the exact same thing (so they are genuinely ONE category).

You have those backwards. Gynomorph was changed from Dickgirl. Mako's entire argument hinges on the wrong words being used.
cuntboy is Andromorph

Updated by anonymous

Demesejha said:
I don't mean to be rude but, this argument feels, in itself intentionally disingenuous. If not outwardly malicious.

"Dickgirl" is not a gender. It was a tag that was used to describe trans and intersex bodies. And while some people may have used it to describe themselves IRL, it was still a "description" not an identity nor is it a "gender" anymore than clovergender or doggender or any of that other disingenous catfishing nonsense was.

Furthermore, Gynomorph doesn't describe flat chested females, gynomorph is the term for trans women, Literally "Female Shaped". Andromorph is the term for trans men. IE: Boys with vaginas, Literally "Man Shaped" It also isn't used for flat chested girls, that's just incorrect tagging.

Either youve been sincerely misinformed some way or this argument is bad faith.

Agh, I'm still getting the damn tags around the wrong way.

Also andromorph is actually the tag on this site for flat chested females, on account of the TWYS rule...

And I don't see how my arguement is in bad faith? I'm a little confused by this statement?

Updated by anonymous

I made the exact same mistake as Mako earlier, LOL.

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:

And I don't see how my arguement is in bad faith? I'm a little confused by this statement?

Either you don't get what kind of claims TWYS tags are actually making and not making (which would be ignorance, which is excusable), or you do know what TWYS tags are actually saying, and are knowingly arguing in a manner contrary to that knowledge (which would be bad faith).

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
I made the exact same mistake as Mako earlier, LOL.

Ugh, same. Fixed my last post on that.

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
Either you don't get what kind of claims TWYS tags are actually making and not making (which would be ignorance, which is excusable), or you do know what TWYS tags are actually saying, and are knowingly arguing in a manner contrary to that knowledge (which would be bad faith).

I know what the TWYS tags are saying - they're literally just a visual 'what do we see here' of the pictures.
My arguement in this forum thread is that we need to have seperate lore tags for the individual identities for characters who, under TWYS, are currently tagged andromorph. So 'lore_cuntboy', 'lore_female' (for flat chested girls), and 'lore_transmale' for trans male characters.

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
I know what the TWYS tags are saying - they're literally just a visual 'what do we see here' of the pictures.
My arguement in this forum thread is that we need to have seperate lore tags for the individual identities for characters who, under TWYS, are currently tagged andromorph. So 'lore_cuntboy', 'lore_female' (for flat chested girls), and 'lore_transmale' for trans male characters.

I havn't given it too much thought yet, but I really kinda like that idea at first blush.

Additionally, have we considered also putting in lore pronoun tags? that might be an interesting addition to this idea...

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
My arguement in this forum thread is that we need to have seperate lore tags for the individual identities for characters who, under TWYS, are currently tagged andromorph. So 'lore_cuntboy', 'lore_female' (for flat chested girls), and 'lore_transmale' for trans male characters.

This is exactly what we're getting, isn't it? Just replace cuntboy with andromorph, which mean the same thing here. We'll have tags like transman_(lore) for trans identities, andromorph_(lore) for characters that are known to have male-like bodies and female genitals (that applies even if you don't see the genitals or can't tell the body type), and andromorph (that only applies if you can see a male-like body with female genitals). Consequently, a flat-chested female would be female_(lore) and never andromorph_(lore), while you could have andromorph_(lore) and transman_(lore) or any other trans tag instead (or none, if it doesn't apply).

Updated by anonymous

Watsit said:
This is exactly what we're getting, isn't it? Just replace cuntboy with andromorph, which mean the same thing here. We'll have tags like transman_(lore) for trans identities, andromorph_(lore) for characters that are known to have male-like bodies and female genitals (that applies even if you don't see the genitals or can't tell the body type), and andromorph (that only applies if you can see a male-like body with female genitals).

Well, why don't we just remove 'transman' from the list then? They can all just be tagged as 'male' instead, it'd be nicer and simpler.
No? That wouldn't be nicer because it's not what those people identify as? Well, how is that any different from saying cuntboys can't identify as and tag themselves as that?!

Updated by anonymous

Pronoun tags would very quickly clutter, but Im not necessarily against them myself.

My feelings on the idea of bringing back cboy and dgirl in almost any capacity should be obvious and I am extremely against it. Even knowing Lore tags can only be added by admins, I cant help but feel some form of abuse would result from it.

Mako_Rivers said:
Agh, I'm still getting the damn tags around the wrong way.

Also andromorph is actually the tag on this site for flat chested females, on account of the TWYS rule...

And I don't see how my arguement is in bad faith? I'm a little confused by this statement?

Andromorph is not used for flat chested females, and if it is being used that way it is being mistagged and you should report it as such or ask a moderator on the decision involved.

In essence, the argument you Seem to be making is that youre personally upset that you cannot use the Cboy tag as a self identifier? But the way the argument is being Presented, and do forgive me as I have been burned before, is that you are sealioning.

Where it seems your argument sits, that is, the place that this is coming from is that the character lore tags should have a space for intersex options in addition to trans tags. But the way youve been going about it makes it seem like even associating intersexuality with trans identities is somehow in itself a problem. And furthermore, youre taking issue with characters being tagged as, ostensibly, intersex for that reason because it associates trans characters at all. Do you understand how that might come across as disingenuous?

Updated by anonymous

Mako_Rivers said:
Well, why don't we just remove 'transman' from the list then? They can all just be tagged as 'male' instead, it'd be nicer and simpler.

Because male and male_(lore) are talking about the biological/physical makeup of the character. male applies when you can see the character is a male, male_(lore) applies when you know the character is male regardless of being able to see it. transman_(lore) would be for characters that identify as a man but aren't male.

Mako_Rivers said:
That wouldn't be nicer because it's not what those people identify as? Well, how is that any different from saying cuntboys can't identify as and tag themselves as that?!

So you want a transcuntboy/transandromorph tag?

Updated by anonymous

Demesejha said:
My feelings on the idea of bringing back cboy and dgirl in almost any capacity should be obvious and I am extremely against it. Even knowing Lore tags can only be added by admins, I cant help but feel some form of abuse would result from it.

Andromorph is not used for flat chested females, and if it is being used that way it is being mistagged and you should report it as such or ask a moderator on the decision involved.

In essence, the argument you Seem to be making is that youre personally upset that you cannot use the Cboy tag as a self identifier? But the way the argument is being Presented, and do forgive me as I have been burned before, is that you are sealioning.

Where it seems your argument sits, that is, the place that this is coming from is that the character lore tags should have a space for intersex options in addition to trans tags. But the way youve been going about it makes it seem like even associating intersexuality with trans identities is somehow in itself a problem. And furthermore, youre taking issue with characters being tagged as, ostensibly, intersex for that reason because it associates trans characters at all. Do you understand how that might come across as disingenuous?

I most certainly am upset that I can't use the cuntboy tag as a self identifier.
And no, aside from my previous comment about not including trans tags, I am not trolling.

And yes, they most certainly should. The lore tags should have plenty of options to cater to the wide range of people and identities that exist within the fandom. And no, I have no issue with associating trans and intersex identities. They're just not mutually exclusive. I'm a cuntboy, but that doesn't automatically mean I'm trans, and you earlier said that the andromorph/gynomorph tags are the terms for trans folk.
We should have seperate tags that can be applied seperately where appropriate, and also applied in tandem where appropriate.

And no, I still don't see how it's disingenuous. To me it just looks like you're desperately trying to poke a hole in my arguement so you can cry 'transphobe', if I'm to be brutally honest. (And brutally honest I shall be)

Updated by anonymous

Demesejha said:
My feelings on the idea of bringing back cboy and dgirl in almost any capacity should be obvious and I am extremely against it. Even knowing Lore tags can only be added by admins, I cant help but feel some form of abuse would result from it.

I might be reading you wrong, or I may be misinterpreting what the admins said, but I believe tags can only be added to the lore category by admins, but any already-defined lore tag can be removed from or added to a post by users (unless an admin has locked them on a post, like they can already do with any tags). Relying on admins to apply lore tags to posts would put a severe amount of work on them.

Updated by anonymous

Watsit said:
I might be reading you wrong, or I may be misinterpreting what the admins said, but I believe tags can only be added to the lore category by admins, but any already-defined lore tag can be removed from or added to a post by users (unless an admin has locked them on a post, like they can already do with any tags). Relying on admins to apply lore tags to posts would put a severe amount of work on them.

I may have misread myself actually, and In that case it definitely could and would possibly be abused. Either way thanks for bringing it up! I will do my best to reread what was said and try to see if I can understand better.

Mako_Rivers said:
I most certainly am upset that I can't use the cuntboy tag as a self identifier.
And no, aside from my previous comment about not including trans tags, I am not trolling.

And yes, they most certainly should. The lore tags should have plenty of options to cater to the wide range of people and identities that exist within the fandom. And no, I have no issue with associating trans and intersex identities. They're just not mutually exclusive. I'm a cuntboy, but that doesn't automatically mean I'm trans, and you earlier said that the andromorph/gynomorph tags are the terms for trans folk.
We should have seperate tags that can be applied seperately where appropriate, and also applied in tandem where appropriate.

And no, I still don't see how it's disingenuous. To me it just looks like you're desperately trying to poke a hole in my arguement so you can cry 'transphobe', if I'm to be brutally honest. (And brutally honest I shall be)

You have made it blisteringly obvious at this point that you have absolutely no desire to be civil on this, and are intentionally ignoring pieces of what's being said by others around you to twist the discussion so I'm going to cut it off here.

Andromorph/Gynomorph are used as trans AND intersex tags here for tag what you see because we spent 3 years (and longer if you really wanna talk about posts going back nearly a decade from some users) debating on what would be best to replace Dgirl and Cboy when trans tags were themselves shot down. They were selected as the best options of all the tags available, as they are clinical, and have a scientific flavor to them. As opposed to literally slurs as tags.

There is no argument from me whatsoever that intersex lore tags are fine to use, and I happily welcome them. I have never said as much. I am not going to be entertaining this with you any further.

As it stands, and I will repeat what I posted a page earlier with addendum, trans_man trans_woman and trans_nb are great lore tags, they dont need the lore pre or suffix because trans as a tag is not acceptable tag what you see.
(lore)_Intersex_* would exist as the tag for intersex specific identities that are distinctly not trans. DMAB and DFAB or AMAB/AFAB would be used to signify mid or post transition characters, as a secondary flavor indicator for trans characters or intersex characters that have been physically altered for one reason or another.

Updated by anonymous

Remember folks, not everyone interpirates words the same. And while some love change that happens, others hate it. Sometimes it's better to leave something alone than to argue verbiage with someone.

Updated by anonymous

As Watsit said, Lore tags can only be created by admins, but can then be applied or removed to submissions at will by any user. Unless we explicitly lock them on or off any submissions like any other tags, of course.

Andromorph and Gynomorph are currently only used for trans characters and "characters that were born this way" because they visually appear the same. With the lore tags we can (and possibly want to) have a more finer distinction to help searching.

However, since searching is still important, we don't want to split things too finely. If we have too many tags for all possibly nuances we just splinter results up into nonusability. While people will be able to search for up to 40 tags at the same time, we'd like to avoid having people need use too many tags to find what they're looking for.

Having multiple precise tags isn't bad, but I feel making a distinction in lore tags for gynomorph & dickgirl and andromorph & cuntboy is entirely superfluous, as they're literally intended to be the exact same thing but by a different term. It's like penis and dick, they're both two terms for the exact same object, just one is more professional sounding and the other is slang. It's the exact same situation with those terms.

Updated by anonymous

Honestly real happy about the possibility of having transgender, cisgender, and non-binary lore based tags to help people out and just generally make things neater and nicer. 💖

Updated by anonymous

Sharkiiie said:
Personally I think the tags should be trans_woman, trans_man, non_binary, etc. And have those imply the tags mtf, ftm, etc.

As I explained in my first comment, trans_* tags should NOT imply nor be aliased to mtf/ftm tags. Besides a lot of trans people not really liking those terms, it is objectively incorrect in some cases.

Demesejha said:
gynomorph is the term for trans women, Literally "Female Shaped". Andromorph is the term for trans men. IE: Boys with vaginas

Again, as I initialy wrote, this is not correct. Not all trans women are gynomorphs and not all gynomorphs are trans women, and vv for trans men and andromorphs. There is some overlap, but the terms are not interchangable.

Watsit said:
transman_(lore) would be for characters that identify as a man but aren't male.

No, a character of any anatomical sex (whether visible or known only from lore) should be tag-able as a trans man. Otherwise, how could we tag anyone post-transition?

Also, you keep writing it like that, but "transman" is not a word. "Trans" is an adjective and "man" is a noun, and in English, we put a space between those things (ex. an apple that is red is a red apple, not a "redapple"). The proper term is "trans man", or in tags, trans_man.

Demesejha said:
(lore)_Intersex_* would exist as the tag for intersex specific identities that are distinctly not trans.

"Trans" and "intersex" aren't mutually exclusive categories, though... What do you mean here?

Demesejha said:
DMAB and DFAB or AMAB/AFAB would be used to signify mid or post transition characters, as a secondary flavor indicator for trans characters or intersex characters that have been physically altered for one reason or another.

Why should only transitioning or transitioned characters get to specify what sex they were designated/assigned, and how would you implement that, anyway? Wouldn't it just be simpler to have lore tags for assigned/designated sex that could be applied to any character?

Updated by anonymous

kyuuuuu said:
*Snip*

OK, for the record, I *am* trans and was trying to explain how the current tagging system works to someone who seems dead set on intentionally misunderstanding it.

Trans and Intersex identities are not mutually exclusive at all, and I never explicitly said so, so nice job twisting it. Some intersex individuals have an identity that is purely their own and that doesn't necessarily overlap with direct transness. Especially involving the complicated situations with IRL intersex people. Not being Mutually exclusive does not mean mutually inclusive.

The AMAB/AFAB situation applies to all trans characters, its fine to use it at any time, it was just an offering to explicitly make sure it isnt lost for post transition depictions of a character. Y'dig.

Im not even gonna dignify most of the rest of that. So, please, to ensure the conversation continues politely don't pull the "i dont understand what you mean sweetie" card.

Im speaking from the perspective of trying to help make this work in a system that has historically not had the specialisation available for it. Please drop the hostility.

Updated by anonymous

kyuuuuu said:
No, a character of any anatomical sex (whether visible or known only from lore) should be tag-able as a trans man. Otherwise, how could we tag anyone post-transition?

I was talking about a male-since-birth, for ease of discussion and not getting side-tracked into particulars. The point I was making was that male, male_(lore), and trans_man_(lore) are all used for different purposes and are independent of each other.

kyuuuuu said:
Also, you keep writing it like that, but "transman" is not a word. "Trans" is an adjective and "man" is a noun, and in English, we put a space between those things (ex. an apple that is red is a red apple, not a "redapple"). The proper term is "trans man", or in tags, trans_man.

Apologies. I'm just following how I've seen other people saying it to remain consistent. In my defense, though, there is such a thing as contractions, creating new forms of words by putting two or more together. E.g. lycanthrope being a contraction of lycos anthropos, and werewolf from 'were' (man) and 'wolf'. See also, intercom, intrastate, foreman, as more examples. Consequently, 'transgender' 'man' can be contracted into 'transman' or 'trans-man'.

Updated by anonymous

Demesejha said:
You have made it blisteringly obvious at this point that you have absolutely no desire to be civil on this, and are intentionally ignoring pieces of what's being said by others around you to twist the discussion so I'm going to cut it off here.

Andromorph/Gynomorph are used as trans AND intersex tags here for tag what you see because we spent 3 years (and longer if you really wanna talk about posts going back nearly a decade from some users) debating on what would be best to replace Dgirl and Cboy when trans tags were themselves shot down. They were selected as the best options of all the tags available, as they are clinical, and have a scientific flavor to them. As opposed to literally slurs as tags.

There is no argument from me whatsoever that intersex lore tags are fine to use, and I happily welcome them. I have never said as much. I am not going to be entertaining this with you any further.

As it stands, and I will repeat what I posted a page earlier with addendum, trans_man trans_woman and trans_nb are great lore tags, they dont need the lore pre or suffix because trans as a tag is not acceptable tag what you see.
(lore)_Intersex_* would exist as the tag for intersex specific identities that are distinctly not trans. DMAB and DFAB or AMAB/AFAB would be used to signify mid or post transition characters, as a secondary flavor indicator for trans characters or intersex characters that have been physically altered for one reason or another.

I'm sorry, how am I not being civil about this? XD
It seems like you're the one misunderstanding me?

It seems like you're trying to say 'trans lore tags are good'... which is exactly what I'm advocating for?
And you also recognise that not every intersex identity is trans... which is also something I was saying earlier.

I don't think you can fairly claim that I'm 'intentionally ignoring pieces of what's being said', when you're not reading what I've said either?
And I also don't think there's actually anything we disagree on other than the return of the cuntboy and dickgirl terms.

*edit*
I'd also like to know what part of the tagging system you believe I don't understand. I understand how TWYS works perfectly well, but you've made it clear that you think I do not, so I'd like for you to please clarify on what aspects you think I'm not understanding the same as you.

Updated by anonymous

Here's a compilation of all the proposals I've seen so far, plus a few more.

From the other thread on general lore tags:

crossgender
  • and all subcategories

Anatomical sex according to lore:

  • male
  • female
  • sexless (would not normally be expected to have genitals, and indeed doesn't -savageorange)
  • intersex
    • neuter/sexless, implies intersex (...or should it? It seems odd to say that something like an intelligent toaster should be called "intersex" just because it's as sexless as any similar inanimate object.)
    • neuter, implies intersex (would normally be expected to have genitals but doesn't -savageorange)
    • andromorph, implies intersex
    • gynomorph, implies intersex
    • herm, implies intersex
    • maleherm, implies intersex
      (I have to say though, like many others, I've never been a huge fan of "hermaphrodite" and related terms. You might find more people complaining if they can't use different terms for their characters' lore. I'm not sure which terms could work as one-to-one replacements for the way the current ones divide things, though.)

From this thread:

Identified genders:

  • man/boy
  • woman/girl
  • genderless (like sexless; for characters that would not be expected to have a gender in the first place)
  • nonbinary/enby
    • agender, implies nonbinary (for characters that would normally have a gender, but don't)
assigned_[sex]_at_birth

variations, + abbrevations/synonyms:

  • afab/dfab
  • amab/dmab
  • edit: anab for "assigned nonbinary/neuter/nothing at birth", meaning a character who was actively raised as something other than a boy or a girl. An example could be something like Pinocchio, who was created as a sexless inanimate object but wanted to become a boy (though I guess you could also argue that he was AMAB).
  • possibly also something like no_gender_assignment or not_assigned_gender for characters who were canonically raised with full support in determining themselves? Unfortunately rare IRL, but probably common in fantasies.

Trans [gender] vs cis [gender]:

  • cis/cisgender
    • cis_man/cis_boy/cis_male, implies cis and man
    • cis_nonbinary/cis_enby, implies cis and nonbinary
    • cis_woman/cis_girl/cis_female, implies cis and woman
  • trans/transgender
    • trans_man/trans_boy/trans_male, implies trans and man
    • trans_nonbinary/trans_enby, implies trans and nonbinary
    • trans_woman/trans_girl/trans_female, implies trans and woman

All [sex1]_to_[sex2] variations + abbreviations:

  • fti
  • ftm
  • itf
  • iti
  • itm
  • mtf
  • mti
  • etc
  • all imply gender_transition

Misc.:

  • Alias "transition" to "transformation".
  • fantastical_gender_transition vs realistic_gender_transition, both implying gender_transition.
  • willing_gender_transition vs unwilling_gender_transition(edit: or forced_gender_transition), both implying gender_transition.
  • non-op_trans vs pre-op_trans vs post-op_trans, all implying trans and the latter two implying gender_transition.
  • edit: Come to think of it, more general non-transitioning_trans, pre-transition_trans, mid-transition_trans, and post-transition_trans tags could also be useful, to signify at what point a character is in their process when considering everything rather than just surgery. All should imply trans, and all except for the first should imply gender_transition.
  • It was suggested to create tags for all combinations of anatomical sex, trans/cis status, and identified gender (ex: andromorph_trans_man, herm_cis_woman, etc), but that might be too many tags. If implemented, they'd of course need to imply each of their components (ex: andromorph_trans_man implies andromorph, trans, man, and trans_man, and possibly also trans_andromorph and andromorph_man). This would be a bad idea for several reasons, such as requiring an absurd amount of tags and resulting in confusing/offensive tags like male_cis_woman and female_trans_man.
  • Possibly add distinct tags like self-identified_[term]. This way, a post tagged with cuntboy would still show up as andromorph, but a post tagged specifically with self-id_cuntboy would show up as just that.
  • Tags for pronouns, i.e. pronouns_he/him, pronouns_she/her, pronouns_they/them, and pronouns_it for the regular ones, with pronouns_neopronouns to cover anything else.
  • Prefixing the identified gender tags with gender_ and the anatomical sex tags with sex_.
  • Have [sex1]/[sex2] pairings and other such tags that take lore into account. For example, where TWYS might have an image tagged as male_penetrating_ambiguous, it could also be tagged as maleherm_penetrating_female_(lore). Of course, if these are implemented, they should also imply their component sex tags.

Edit: removed *_(lore) for easier reading, but it's still implied.

Updated

While OP does state that the _(lore) prefix will be applied to all of these tags, including dozens of instances of _(lore) makes it a bit difficult to read. As such I won't be using that notation myself except when strictly necessary; I consider it to be implied for the purposes of easy discussion.

Some comments:

  • neuter -> intersex makes more sense than sexless -> intersex to me. ('would normally be expected to have genitals but doesn't') vs ('would not normally be expected to have genitals, and indeed doesn't')
  • cis_nonbinary : EDIT: You stated this indicates 'nonbinary + not trans'. I think my initial confusion (cisgender and nonbinary being mutually exclusive) was understandable, but I also appreciate that something more literal like nonbinary_nontrans would be confusing in a different way. Shrug?
  • Simple combinatoric notation (as in Bash expansions) might be useful for keeping things compact in discussion. eg. {fantastical,realistic}_gender_transition {willing,unwilling}_gender_transition {non,pre,post}-op
  • pronouns:he/him .. I think there is an object-identity problem there for any pictures which are not solo. We would need grouping of taggings to be implemented for this to work, and realistically we can't expect that. The exception would be when dialog is present to disambiguate.

EDIT: when I think about it, the object-identity problem also applies to anything that is purely mental (ie. ambiguity of who is being described cannot be plausibly resolved with context hints present in the picture).
Compare pronouns or self-id vs duo female andromorph_(lore) male -- the combination of lore and TWYS tags give a relatively unambiguous statement in the latter case.

EDIT2: Thanks kyuuuu for taking the time to edit out _(lore) instances :)

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:

  • Simple combinatoric notation (as in Bash expansions) might be useful for keeping things compact in discussion. eg. {fantastical,realistic}_gender_transition {willing,unwilling}_gender_transition {non,pre,post}-op
_transition

sounds like a present-tense action, and particularly with the fantastical prefix sounds like an active transformation, rather than a past transition/change that may not be apparent in the image. But I am drawing a blank on a good term to describe a character that went previously through a transition/transformation that isn't evident in the picture.

Also, instead of unwilling, perhaps forced would be better, since there's already forced_ tags to indicate an action done unwillingly.

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
neuter -> intersex makes more sense than sexless -> intersex to me. ('would normally be expected to have genitals but doesn't') vs ('would not normally be expected to have genitals, and indeed doesn't')

Yes, I agree that this distinction makes sense. It's just that AFAIK, with e621's current tagging standard for non-lore anatomical sex, no such distinction is made (there's only ambiguous_gender). It would be nice if we got the option for both lore and TWYS.

savageorange said:
cis_nonbinary : .. aren't cisgender and nonbinary mutually exclusive..? There would have to be a normative standard of behaviour for nonbinary in order for cis to be applicable, and I don't think there is such a standard.

I'm not sure what you mean by "normative standard of behaviour"; it doesn't sound like any metric that's used to determine whether binary people are trans.

IRL, depending on exact definitions, it may or may not be considered possible for a human person to be both cis and nonbinary. Consider someone who's born anatomically intersex and whose parents and community raise them without forcing them to "pick a side", so to speak. It's rare, but can and does happen, particularly in certain cultures that have traditional nonbinary gender roles. If such a person were to identify their gender as neither male nor female, then it's hard to argue how they could be considered "trans" unless you just categorically define all people with nonbinary genders as automatically "trans" no matter what. And anyway, a lot of stuff on this site isn't exactly based on what's typical for IRL humans, so we may as well have the option.

Updated by anonymous

kyuuuuu said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "normative standard of behaviour"; it doesn't sound like any metric that's used to determine whether binary people are trans.

Sociological term which is probably adequately demonstrated by saying there are usually normative standards of female and male behaviour, but not nonbinary behaviour. Differs from 'normal' in being purely descriptive ('what people expect' rather than 'what is necessarily correct or healthy'). 'cis' (meaning 'near') requires a normative standard to define what it is near *to*.

Anyway I went back and reread what you wrote in your initial post about that, and edited my post accordingly. Basically: I understand what you are getting at (nonbinary, and not trans), I don't think this tag is very 'self descriptive'/obvious, but the more literal alternative that is obvious to me is also confusing (nontrans_nonbinary). So.. shrug.

Updated by anonymous

Not wanna sound like a transphobe or anything
But ngl I'm just glad there's gonna be some kind of distinction between trans and "born that way" ,_,

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
EDIT: when I think about it, the object-identity problem also applies to anything that is purely mental (ie. ambiguity of who is being described cannot be plausibly resolved with context hints present in the picture).
Compare pronouns or self-id vs duo female andromorph_(lore) male -- the combination of lore and TWYS tags give a relatively unambiguous statement in the latter case.

Perhaps one way to solve this would be with something like "subtags". Character tags could have, in particular, gender lore tags linked to them. They would be subtags in that they could be attached visibly below the character tag, either manually on each post (to accomodate changes in gender over time or just different concepts in different posts, although I'm not sure how useful or confusing this would be), or they would automatically be synced and updated on all posts with that character tag. This would reduce the object-identity problem, and a limited number of other types of tags could also be made subtags. Unfortunately, this concept makes more sense without TWYS. For example, one obvious tag to match with a character would be their sex, but obviously that does not work with TWYS. Species tags could be a class of tags allowed to be subtags. However, these would not necessarily be linked "worldwide" as some characters can be drawn as other species fairly often, meaning that per-post linking would be necessary. This could make the process very intensive as literally every post on the site would need to be updated, not to mention the current website software would have to be programmed to support such a thing. So, I do recognize such a solution is not very viable, but I've actually been thinking about something like that since the gynomorph/andromorph tag rename discussions.

Updated by anonymous

I think for simplicity and organizational sake having tag prefixes gender: and sex: might help.

Another lore tag group that might help would be pronouns:, as they might not always "match" the gender. And that can be kept to 5 tags, of which would be pronouns:she, pronouns:he, pronouns:they, pronouns:it, and pronouns:neopronouns. The neat thing is this would apply to cis characters that use different pronouns.

Updated by anonymous

sekekkivvi said:
Perhaps one way to solve this would be with something like "subtags". Character tags could have, in particular, gender lore tags linked to them.

I've really wanted a way to do this. Not just for gender lore tags, but really any tags that may reference the same character. With or without lore tags, searching for something like a male renamon is practically impossible without either getting a bunch of false positives, or missing a bunch of matches. So being able to group tags as referring to the same character, and being able to specify when searching that certain tags need to all be for the same group to match, would help immensely.

But I would imagine it's very difficult to implement if the database isn't set up to handle groupings like that (let alone how to deal with the thousands of existing posts that don't have grouped tags).

Updated by anonymous

Yseult said:
I think for simplicity and organizational sake having tag prefixes gender: and sex: might help.

Another lore tag group that might help would be pronouns:, as they might not always "match" the gender. And that can be kept to 5 tags, of which would be pronouns:she, pronouns:he, pronouns:they, pronouns:it, and pronouns:neopronouns. The neat thing is this would apply to cis characters that use different pronouns.

Please don't put : in tags. It makes my life waaay harder later on, just because they are also used for search syntax as well, and if there is ever overlap I don't have a good way to resolve it later on.

Updated by anonymous

Gobo-Bobo said:
Not wanna sound like a transphobe or anything
But ngl I'm just glad there's gonna be some kind of distinction between trans and "born that way" ,_,

Not really sure why that would be transphobic. Some characters on this site just don't fall neatly into male or female body types / genital configurations / whatever else for reasons other than those which exist in real life.

Updated by anonymous

Clawdragons said:
Not really sure why that would be transphobic. Some characters on this site just don't fall neatly into male or female body types / genital configurations / whatever else for reasons other than those which exist in real life.

Well I meant I like that I could filter confirmed trans out
Because knowing a character is trans makes me somewhat uncomfortable
But I don't really want to sound like a transphobe or anything

Updated by anonymous

If something as basic as having a preference in what you want to see or not see (and I note that preferences are only partly within your control) made you a *phobe, then the obvious choice to me is to just own it, since the people calling you that for that reason would be essentially dictating that you must have only preferences they approve of (and not even the REAL-WORLD preferences, affecting REAL people, they approve of, but tastes in FICTIONAL things). Pandering to people who are trying to victimize you is a really bad idea.

Though if you're seriously concerned about such people being offended at you, you might be spending too much time on Twitter ;)

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
If something as basic as having a preference in what you want to see or not see (and I note that preferences are only partly within your control) made you a *phobe, then the obvious choice to me is to just own it, since the people calling you that for that reason would be essentially dictating that you must have only preferences they approve of (and not even the REAL-WORLD preferences, affecting REAL people, they approve of, but tastes in FICTIONAL things). Pandering to people who are trying to victimize you is a really bad idea.

Though if you're seriously concerned about such people being offended at you, you might be spending too much time on Twitter ;)

Well
It's rather me myself considering myself a transphobe internally because I'm trying not to surface it publicly
Because I feel uncomfortable both with fictional and real trans
I might have a kind of paranoia too
But I don't want to suddenly turn this thread about me so I probably shouldn't have started talking in the first place
But I guess there might be some others with similar problem, albeit very few if any I believe

Updated by anonymous

kyuuuuu said:
Here's a compilation of all the proposals I've seen so far, plus a few more.

. . . [Snip]

As a transfeminine user on the site, I'm pretty comfortable with this entire list as it is, with the potential for pronoun tags if we'd be able to sort those in any reasonable fashion (perhaps a catch-all multiple_pronouns tag?).

My only real nitpick would be andromorph and gynomorph both implying intersex -- I understand why it's done through TWYS and all that; I do however feel it's a distinction that I should mention. My character is a gynomorph in regards to art she has while having a dick -- but she's not intersex, by any means, from a sex-at-birth standpoint, or however you'd put it.

As far as a suggestion on a fix for that would be:

  • Split intersex from andromorph and gynomorph
  • Move the {A,D}MAB and {A,D}FAB tags to the sex category, with {A,D}MAB implying gynomorph &vv

Alternatively, the suggestion kyuuuuu mentioned would also be a good idea imo:

It was suggested to create tags for all combinations of anatomical sex, trans/cis status, and identified gender (ex: andromorph_trans_man, herm_cis_woman, etc), but that might be too many tags. If implemented, they'd of course need to imply each of their components (ex: andromorph_trans_man implies andromorph, trans, man, and trans_man, and possibly also trans_andromorph and andromorph_man).

Regardless, a big thank you to the administration for reaching out to help smooth this over and getting input from the community regarding adding these tags. It makes me happy to potentially not have to talk in circles with people about the site being transphobic, or anything like that. 👍💖🦊

Updated by anonymous

AnastasiaVixley said:
My only real nitpick would be andromorph and gynomorph both implying intersex -- I understand why it's done through TWYS and all that; I do however feel it's a distinction that I should mention. My character is a gynomorph in regards to art she has while having a dick -- but she's not intersex, by any means, from a sex-at-birth standpoint, or however you'd put it.

As far as a suggestion on a fix for that would be:

  • Split intersex from andromorph and gynomorph

I don't think you do understand why those tags imply intersex. IRL, "because of reasons", the term "intersex" is usually only considered applicable to certain specific medical conditions that people are born with. However, this classification is arbitrary. There's no biological reason to say that an otherwise-female human with a penis can only be called "intersex" if they were born that way; their biology is exactly the same either way. And that aside, this site doesn't use "intersex" in the way that doctors usually do; instead it's used to refer only to anatomical sex (rather than genetic/chromosomal etc).

Rereading your comment though, could it be that you think that your character will be tagged as intersex_(lore) just because there are some images of her with a dick? If so, your concern is moot, because lore tags are being implemented to solve this very issue. If your character is canonically a gynomorph, then she's also canonically "intersex" by this site's standard, and there's not much you can do about that. If she's not always a gynomorph, though, then gynomorph_(lore) won't be applicable and so neither will intersex_(lore), but any particular images of her being visibly female-but-with-a-dick will still be tagged both gynomorph and intersex.

AnastasiaVixley said:

  • Move the {A,D}MAB and {A,D}FAB tags to the sex category

The entire point of terms like "assigned sex at birth" is that they do not refer to one's actual sex at any point in one's life. It's not just a euphemism, and treating it like one means that you'll be straight-up wrong in a lot of cases. I, for example, was assigned female, but I never actually have been, it just means that I was raised as a girl.

AnastasiaVixley said:
with {A,D}MAB implying gynomorph &vv

I already covered this in a few previous comments, but we must not be careless with implications and aliases. What sex/gender someone was assigned says nothing about their current (or past) anatomical sex, so this suggestion makes no sense. If we were to automatically tag all canonically AMAB characters as gynomorph_(lore), then the gynomorph_(lore) tag would end up with more males in it than gynomorphs!

Updated by anonymous