Reminder that the only* current use-case for any lore: tag as pure identity-definition is trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore) being applicable without requiring physical signifiers, and that's notably only for the context of binary transgender identities. Every other lore tag the administration has approved at this time is for tagging in-universe physically-factual information that is merely not visually apparent.

andromorph_(lore) is exclusively for in-universe-naturally-male-bodied-with-female-genitalia depictions of characters in which TWYS rule requires application of a contradictory tag. This inherently excludes any character state other than in-universe-naturally-male-bodied-with-female-genitalia depictions, and when combined with the TWYS tag it is theoretically possible to filter out the TWYS-mistagged-as-andromorph posts provided that those also have their relevant lore tag applied.
Screaming for an additional non-trans identity-based tag for something that effectively already exists is not likely to go places, as I doubt site administration is interested in dividing a functional tag definition into distinct one-or-the-other tags, and if either andromorph or andromorph_(lore) was still a requirement for every proposed cuntboy_(lore) post then it's a redundant tag.

I predict the furthest any non-binary lore tags will go is a simple nonbinary_(lore) for characters who explicitly identify as not-locked-to-their-birth-sex but without a specific male/female identity in place of that.
But this post isn't going to do anything for anyone anyway.

*Actually, it looks like nonbinary_(lore) has been implemented already, it just hasn't been placed in the lore category for some reason. (So that the wiki can be figured out before it locks to admin-only?)

magnuseffect said:
Reminder that the only* current use-case for any lore: tag as pure identity-definition is trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore) being applicable without requiring physical signifiers, and that's notably only for the context of binary transgender identities. Every other lore tag the administration has approved at this time is for tagging in-universe physically-factual information that is merely not visually apparent.

andromorph_(lore) is exclusively for in-universe-naturally-male-bodied-with-female-genitalia depictions of characters in which TWYS rule requires application of a contradictory tag. This inherently excludes any character state other than in-universe-naturally-male-bodied-with-female-genitalia depictions, and when combined with the TWYS tag it is theoretically possible to filter out the TWYS-mistagged-as-andromorph posts provided that those also have their relevant lore tag applied.
Screaming for an additional non-trans identity-based tag for something that effectively already exists is not likely to go places, as I doubt site administration is interested in dividing a functional tag definition into distinct one-or-the-other tags, and if either andromorph or andromorph_(lore) was still a requirement for every proposed cuntboy_(lore) post then it's a redundant tag.

I predict the furthest any non-binary lore tags will go is a simple nonbinary_(lore) for characters who explicitly identify as not-locked-to-their-birth-sex but without a specific male/female identity in place of that.
But this post isn't going to do anything for anyone anyway.

*Actually, it looks like nonbinary_(lore) has been implemented already, it just hasn't been placed in the lore category for some reason. (So that the wiki can be figured out before it locks to admin-only?)

Thank you.

Doesn't this kind of go against the entire concept of TWYS? If a character is a trans woman but appears male then would you still tag it as male despite having the trans_woman tag?
Edit: nevermind that question was answered already

I just don't really get the point of transgender lore tags. As the TWYS page states:

TWYS's end-goal is to make sure that when you search for something, you find only posts where you can actually see what you're searching for in the picture. Think about it: if you search for "balloons" on Google's Image Search, you expect it to display pictures that contain balloons, cause why should it show anything other than what you're searching for? Likewise, on e621.net, if you search for "herm", we want to make sure that the results presented to you are ones that actually appear to contain herms; we want to make sure you find exactly what you're searching for.

Since this isn't a tag based on appearance, it's not really anything anyone would actually use when searching. And if it's not used, then it's completely worthless as a tag.
I personally don't really care; it doesn't affect me or the site's functionality, but I just don't get why people are putting time and effort into this.

Much like other untaggable things via TWYS (like incest or character interrelationships) it does serve a purpose for folks who want to find the content specifically but cannot otherwise search for it without these tags.

Ie: Trans folks who want to find trans representation instead of just fetish content.

It's been a oft requested feature for years for a reason.

TWYS isnt perfect. This covers those weakspots.

demesejha said:
Much like other untaggable things via TWYS (like incest or character interrelationships) it does serve a purpose for folks who want to find the content specifically but cannot otherwise search for it without these tags.

Ie: Trans folks who want to find trans representation instead of just fetish content.

It's been a oft requested feature for years for a reason.

TWYS isnt perfect. This covers those weakspots.

But my point is it's not an actually visible trait, so what's the point in searching for it? You could look at pretty much any character and think that they're trans.

dickard said:
But my point is it's not an actually visible trait, so what's the point in searching for it? You could look at pretty much any character and think that they're trans.

You could, but that's not how lore tags are supposed to work. They're supposed to be based on what is canonical according to the artist.

Personally, I think the concept is broken, and for similar reasons to you (eg. if you can't just see it but have to know it, that that highly restricts the number of people who could possibly tag it). But tags like crossgender were also kind of broken within the context of TWYS, so I can appreciate that a partially impure approach is probably needed -- even if this particular approach turns out to be a dead end)

Ultimately I think this choice on the part of e621 amounts to 'well, in pursuit of managing to archive more art and less melodramatic comments,perhaps it would be better to play a *little* politics' (politics in this case being : giving a nod to artist intent, but without allowing it to impinge on normal search functionality).

does this mean if you search for a male or female on its own you wont see anything transgendered?

notmenotyou said:

Currently seemingly best proposal:

Tags aliased to trans_woman_(lore):

trans_woman
transwoman
male-to-female
abab
dmab
transgirl
trans_female
transfemale
trans_feminine
transfeminine

Tags aliased to trans_man_(lore):

trans_man
transman
female-to-male
afab
dfab
transboy
trans_male
transmale
trans_masculine
transmasculine

I actually had not noticed the "Lore:" green category of tags until now.

Two others come to mind...
https://e621.net/posts?tags=ftm
https://e621.net/posts?tags=mtf

I tried both of these and they both display the same 2 images:
https://e621.net/posts/2465990
https://e621.net/posts/2463540

Both are tagged with https://e621.net/posts?tags=invalid_tag which is the only tag with population 2, so that is clearly what both tags I searched presently redirect to.

This seems like a mistake because as I understand it per https://e621.net/wiki_pages/550 you are only supposed to use invalid_tag as a placeholder to highlight something has a crossed-out tag and then remove invalid_tag once the crossed-out tag is removed.

It doesn't seem like you would actually alias an invalid tag TO invalid_tag though. Invalid tags should either have a strikethrough (abandoned entirely) or be automatically replaced as an alias.

Are the FTM/MTF initialisms applied to something other than male2female and male2female as listed above?

Come to think of it, m2f and f2m should also be aliases.

Typing 3 characters is WAY easier than the vast majority of the tags, and they even edge out AMAB/DMAB and AFAB/DFAB by 1 character, plus I think the X2Y is just more well-known (even though less PC) than the four 4-char ones.

Also given how we use boy/girl to gender-count images (1boy, 1girl, 2boys, 2girls, etc) I don't think using man/woman is appropriate here. For consistency it should be transboy_(lore) and transgirl_(lore)

I'm actually not sure why you even need to put lore in parenthesis when the green color already conveys that.

Isn't parenthesis reserved only when you need to disambiguate 2 tags of the same name by their category?

I don't think there's any other tag called transboy/transgirl so we could actually drop the parenthesis. I don't think there's any need for "lore".

Explaining what lore is about (for people like myself who don't understand what the green means) that could be done at the ? which links to the wiki page for tag.

tyciol said: stuff

Almost everything you just said is wrong.

I have no idea what you are even on about when it comes to invalid_tag and "crossed-out" tags. The strikethrough on a tag in the post history means that said tag has been removed. Tags that are not valid are aliased to invalid_tag - that is the normal behavior. It is currently being phased out in favor or setting the category of invalid tags to invalid, but that change has not been fully implemented yet.

If you are searching for trans lore tags, I suggest you take a look at trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore). FTM and MTF are not considered valid, since it is often impossible to differentiate a cis character from a post-op one.

Additionally, we absolutely do not use "boy/girl" to gender-count images. 1boy, for example, is aliased to male.

The _(lore) is put in parenthesis because tags must be unique. It is done for the sake of stuff like male vs male_(lore) - you can't have two tags with the same name, thus the lore tag has a clarification. The rest of the lore tags that don't have normal alternatives have that suffix for the sake of consistency.

The bulk update request #665 (forum #) has been approved by @NotMeNotYou.

notmenotyou said:
Very important to note here: Lore tags do not replace or affect the TWYS tags. This means, even if a character is trans, and has trans tags, they will still need the "regular" biological sex tags we're using already. The transgender tags are complementary only, they will not replace the regular ones.

Only thing I can think of adding to this conversation completely contradicts this since if a character is tagged as trans_female/trans_male they should under no circumstances be tagged as male/female, respectively. It's extremely disrespectful and offensive, and does a lot of harm in perpetuating godawful transphobic misconceptions and stereotypes.

kirbyx94 said:
Only thing I can think of adding to this conversation completely contradicts this since if a character is tagged as trans_female/trans_male they should under no circumstances be tagged as male/female, respectively. It's extremely disrespectful and offensive, and does a lot of harm in perpetuating godawful transphobic misconceptions and stereotypes.

Non-lore tags describe what is actually present in the image, rather than what the artist's or character owner's opinion is. Without that, the search system and blacklists do not work.
The general category gender tags are simply shortcuts for very specific anatomy feature combinations. It is not a judgement of the character's sexuality, nor is it meant to offend in any way. You can see how those tags are determined here.

This system is not perfect, but it works well enough, allowing people to find the content they like and filter out stuff they dislike.
I personally do not see why an arbitrary exception to this system would be granted.

Excuse me bargaining in, being trans myself I believe I should add a little something to this thread.

The TWYS rule is BS. Why? Let me explain.

- Many tags aren't see-able.
E.g. Dominance. That is totally a meta information that you cannot just ‘see’, but I guess people could argument “that kind of thing is obvious to spot” which is not always the case, but okay.
What about Rape? What makes you believe that a post showcases Rape other than the lore behind the picture given by the artist? It could be a roleplay thing, and you can't see that by just looking at the image.
Or one of my least favorite tags, what about Incest? If two characters of the same species are showcased engaging in a sexual relationship, that's all you can take from it with the TWYS rule, you can't really see the Incest. BUT, if the artist states that their art showcases Incest, the post is promptly tagged as such.
And I can keep going and going.
There ARE meta-information tags in most posts, there ARE exceptions, why hold back when it comes to trans characters?

- Trying to search for tags like ‘Gynomoprh’ is not only confusing but also plain negligence because it doesn't even endorse a rightful description of what it supposedly contains
“Gyno-”, according to Merriam-Webster, comes from the greek ‘woman’ and in current days it is known as a way to refer to the female reproductive organ the ovary or related. That alone encases a lot, and part of it is transphobic.
Let me keep explaining: For starters, what you find after looking for the tag Gynomorph showcases, mostly, characters with stereotypical femenine sillhoutes, breasts, a phallus (a.k.a. penis), testicles and no vagina. That is simply contradicting, why give it a Gyno- if it doesn't represent a female reproductive system?; And the transphobic bit is that this implies that a woman, in order to be a woman, needs a Gyno-, aka vagina (Which is a whole other trans rights argument that I will simplify stating that your body doesn't define your gender).
And also, using a TWYS when it comes to gender is simply outrageous. It's like having to be forced to be a certain assigned gender based on your body when in reality, once again, your body doesn't define your gender. And that's exactly the same mindset that gets trans people having to show their genitals to security staff at airports (in case you don't understand, that is awful, transphobic and immoral).

And lastly, many could argue “But it's just a porn site, not an airport.” And they are right, but that's just me being nice.
It may be just a porn site, but it is a big one, one with the power of teaching (either for good or bad deeds), one with a community. If e621 is taking SO MANY efforts on avoiding the usage of trans terms, it is sending a very strong and very wrong message: “It is better if we all just ignore it.”
We should be thriving for a healthier community, _{regardless of being a pornographic community}. And that means, among a lot of other things, not trying to excuse yourself for not wanting to acknowledge the existence and usage of trans terms.

e621 commumity of users, admins, moderators, janitors, etc, there's no transphobic reason you should not be avoiding this so much.

With love, Angie.

Gentlest way I can put this. Theres a 4 year old argument thread on this. Multiple. In fact. Why those words were chosen and to be honest if you have an issue with TWYS being asinine then thats an unrelated issue. None of this is transphobic. Gyno and Andro do not mean penis and vagina just feminine and masculine.

Dont twist things.

demesejha said:
Gentlest way I can put this. Theres a 4 year old argument thread on this. Multiple. In fact. Why those words were chosen and to be honest if you have an issue with TWYS being asinine then thats an unrelated issue. None of this is transphobic. Gyno and Andro do not mean penis and vagina just feminine and masculine.

Dont twist things.

Leaving the belittling gaslight aside, I have no issues with TWYS, it has been quite the tool (though of course it could use some finessing). But I'm trying to explain it wouldn't hurt to use appropiate tagging of genders.

I noticed post #2904215 was tagged with 'genderfluid(lore)' (general category), and seemed a reasonable tag (except missing "_")

(I'm only somewhat familiar with trans terms, looked for *genderfluid* tags and saw genderfluid_pride_colors tag)

so I attempted to get it match the other *_(lore) tags( female_(lore), male_(lore), etc), but system deleted it with reason
"Can't add tag genderfluid_(lore): Can not create lore tags unless moderator; Name is invalid."

So i searched forum for genderfluid, and found this topic...

kyuuuuu said:
....
So with that said, here are some tag suggestions (besides adding lore versions of the existing male/female/intersex/etc tags):

For tagging gender identity:

• man
• woman
• nonbinary
• agender

People might want to add more specific options like genderfluid, demigirl, etc., but those four technically cover everything (for humans, at least). You could append "-identifying" if you need to emphasise that they don't refer to anatomy.
...

e621 current gender *_(lore) tags:
371 . . . andromorph_(lore)
2367 . . . female_(lore)
1 . . . genderfluid(lore)
691 . . . gynomorph_(lore)
1604 . . . herm_(lore)
271 . . . maleherm_(lore)
3800 . . . male_(lore)
1651 . . . nonbinary_(lore)
3411 . . . trans_(lore)
876 . . . trans_man_(lore)
2069 . . . trans_woman_(lore)

Should genderfluid go under nonbinary_(lore)?

Should genderfluid get a seperate (lore) tag?

just a simple trans that overlaps everything would be great

actually thought about it a little more and figured best tagging idea would be a pro-lgbt and anti-lgbt tag respectively

cd4 said:
actually thought about it a little more and figured best tagging idea would be a pro-lgbt and anti-lgbt tag respectively

What the hell is anti-LGBT?

cd4 said:
just a simple trans that overlaps everything would be great

That's not how it works.

cd4 said:
actually thought about it a little more and figured best tagging idea would be a pro-lgbt and anti-lgbt tag respectively

Seriously? There are already tags for that.

hexen said:
What the hell is anti-LGBT?

Ignore cd4, they're anti-trans. EDIT: And apparently a serial troll.

A tag that isn't exactly related to transgender topics but I feel might still be helpful would be some sort of lore tag for characters with a canonically ambiguous and unknown gender, such as mangle_(fnaf). These sorts of characters differ from nonbinary characters because they haven't been confirmed to be male, female, or nonbinary. They probably have a gender, but it's never been concretely confirmed which. It'd also be for characters whose gender is officially stated to be up to viewer interpretation.
With these sorts of characters, nothing is technically crossgender because everyone's interpretation is equally likely.
It would not, however, be for characters with a commonly mistaken gender, such as girly canon males.

listerthesquirrel said:
I noticed post #2904215 was tagged with 'genderfluid(lore)' (general category), and seemed a reasonable tag (except missing "_")

(I'm only somewhat familiar with trans terms, looked for *genderfluid* tags and saw genderfluid_pride_colors tag)

I think this is a great addition to the thread.
so I attempted to get it match the other *_(lore) tags( female_(lore), male_(lore), etc), but system deleted it with reason
"Can't add tag genderfluid_(lore): Can not create lore tags unless moderator; Name is invalid."

So i searched forum for genderfluid, and found this topic...

e621 current gender *_(lore) tags:
371 . . . andromorph_(lore)
2367 . . . female_(lore)
1 . . . genderfluid(lore)
691 . . . gynomorph_(lore)
1604 . . . herm_(lore)
271 . . . maleherm_(lore)
3800 . . . male_(lore)
1651 . . . nonbinary_(lore)
3411 . . . trans_(lore)
876 . . . trans_man_(lore)
2069 . . . trans_woman_(lore)

Should genderfluid go under nonbinary_(lore)?

Should genderfluid get a seperate (lore) tag?

Shouldn't explicitly trans tags be aliased to trans_woman_(lore) instead of gynomorph? Tags like male_to_female_trans_gender, mtf_trans_gender, mtf_transsexual, mtf_trans and mtf_transgender.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a male-to-female transgender woman would still be referred to as mtf trans if they had a vagina instead of a penis. Going by that logic, mtf tags should encompass both pre-op (tagged gynomorph) and post-op (tagged female) characters.

kyuuuuu said:
Oh, hey, convenient timing. I logged on just after this was posted, and this is something that you might consider me naturally qualified to comment on.

Re: current proposal to use "male-to-female" and "female-to-male";

Would this only be used for characters that are stated to be literally transitioning from the first sex to the other, and if so, what would be used for other cases? To elaborate, if your intent is to have tags for trans women and trans men respectively, MTF and FTM are sometimes (or always, depending on your definitions) technically incorrect, and you'd still need to account for nonbinary people. For example, I'm a trans man, but I'm not "female to male", because while I am transitioning to male, I've always been intersex so I've never been female. Someone else, on the other hand, might start out as "female", but not intend to transition entirely to male, or one could even go from one type of intersex to another.

As it stands, the TWYS standard goes by visible anatomical sex, right? So a character who's canonically a trans man and is drawn as visibly still pre-everything would be tagged as "female", but so would a character who canonically does identify as a woman while not being anatomically female as long as she's visually coded as female in that image. So, what's visually apparent in a single image (and thus gets tagged) can conflict with the canon on both esoteric stuff like gender identity and more concrete things like parts of the characters anatomy. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think that in order to properly untangle the current mess of TWYS vs lore, we need lore tags for physical sex as well as gender identity.

So with that said, here are some tag suggestions (besides adding lore versions of the existing male/female/intersex/etc tags):

For tagging gender identity:

• man
• woman
• nonbinary
• agender

People might want to add more specific options like genderfluid, demigirl, etc., but those four technically cover everything (for humans, at least). You could append "-identifying" if you need to emphasise that they don't refer to anatomy.

Simple catch-all term that more specific trans tags would implicate:

• trans

If you're going to have "male-to-female" &vv, you might want to syn the commonly-used abbreviations:

• mtf
• ftm

In order to indicate, in a single tag, both a character's identified gender and the canonical fact that they're trans:

• trans_man
• trans_woman
• trans_nb

And to be fair, there should be counterparts to indicate that a character is canonically NOT trans:

• cis
• cis_woman
• cis_man
• cis_nb

Please make sure that the gender identity tags do not implicate any trans tags by themselves; they should be usable to clarify the identity of any character. And please don't just leave them out and force people to choose between either cis_[gender] or trans_[gender], or worse, have it as [gender] vs trans_[gender]. Separating them like that is often done to rudely "other" trans people, and whether they're cis or trans isn't even technically specified for the vast majority of characters to begin with.

Also, just in case anyone's considering it, please don't have the existing "gynomorph" etc tags implicate any trans tags, or "female"/"male" implicate "cis". Even "visibly_trans" could be on some fan art of a character who's canonically cis. This website is one of the few porny places I know of that doesn't currently reinforce the misconception that being trans automatically means I'm a "cuntboy", and I'd like it to stay that way.

Preach!

I've seen some posts that are crossgender being tagged transgender related tags, including by some staff though I think it was before the rank was aquired so I'm not sure if it's valid. Is this correct? Should crossgender implicate transgender tags?

versperus said:
Should crossgender implicate transgender tags?

I don't see why. A drawing Spyro as a female (mtf_crossgender), for example, doesn't mean that depiction of Spyro identifies as something other than female.

watsit said:
I don't see why. A drawing Spyro as a female (mtf_crossgender), for example, doesn't mean that depiction of Spyro identifies as something other than female.

like I said, question stems from action related to rank. Also that retort doesn't argue the question if the crossgender character was originally a different gender but is now one that it identified as

WHY IS agender_(lore) ALIASED TO INVALID?!

dripen_arn said:
WHY IS agender_(lore) ALIASED TO INVALID?!

It's not aliased to invalid tag or put in the invalid category, you're just being prevented from adding tags to the lore category.

What's the difference between agender and nonbinary_(lore) or genderfluid, though? From what I gathered the latter two are common definitions for the former, so is there a need to make an agender_(lore) tag or would genderfluid_(lore) work?

siral_exan said:
It's not aliased to invalid tag or put in the invalid category, you're just being prevented from adding tags to the lore category.

good to know, thought is was aliased since that's how it behaved when i tried to enter it in

What's the difference between agender and nonbinary_(lore) or genderfluid, though? From what I gathered the latter two are common definitions for the former, so is there a need to make an agender_(lore) tag or would genderfluid_(lore) work?

i don't know if you're asking it's utility on site as a tag, or the actual real world definitions of those identities. but here's the differences irl regardless (even though i ain't the encyclopedia for all things lgbtqia+, this is just my sum on knowlage, please do your own research whenever possible):

non-binary is an umbrella term, used for any gender identity that doesn't fall under the traditional western binary of male or female, agender just means you have no gender and genderfluid means you shift between different gender identities at a significant enough frequency that you ident yourself as fluid

the difference between agender and genfluid is kinda like the difference between being bi, poly or pan sexual vs asexual. one being a whole heap of different experiences and the other being none of that

as for site utility (except maybe genfluid, since one could just flow between male and female?) those could all fall under the umbrella of nonbinary_(lore), i was just tagging for chikn nuggit vids since both fwench_fwy_(chikn_nuggit) and iscream_(chikn_nuggit) have 0 genders to their names. so i guess it's more how you think gender lore tags should be used; to find art and characters that express a certain identity or a whack and kinda broken pronouns check.

i guess i was kinda viewing it in the latter way 2 days ago, but i still think there's merit to the idea that someone might want to see all the characters on this site that are canonically agender.