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Topic: [Beta] Help us find our transgender tags

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

Now that we're setting up real transgender tags, can we get dickgirl and cuntboy back for non-trans characters?

pichi said:
Now that we're setting up real transgender tags, can we get dickgirl and cuntboy back for non-trans characters?

The answer to this has already been no, especially considering lore tags are not replacing conventional tags, which would mean those tags would be tagged ON trans characters. So again, no.

demesejha said:
The answer to this has already been no, especially considering lore tags are not replacing conventional tags, which would mean those tags would be tagged ON trans characters. So again, no.

Ngl that kinda sucks. I really like them.

demesejha said:
I had noticed the lore tag listing of gynomorph but find it important to note that due to the point of these lore tags in the first place just having lore_gynomorph is functionally useless as it is identical to the tag in current use for twys defeating the purpose of having a second tag thats identical.

leroy_fontaine said:
@demesejha rightfully noted that one of the prime usages for a lore tag of gynomorph would be for a situation where it is unclear if the character is gynomorph from birth or some variant of trans woman (in the process, decided they're more comfortable with both tits+dick, etc.)

A gynomorph lore tag will be used for characters who canonically have the "gynomorph" body type, whether or not it's visibly apparent in the image (since when it isn't, TWYS won't allow it), and regardless of how they got that way. In order to indicate that a character is cis or trans or what their identified gender is, that's what the cis/trans and gender identity tags are for.

leroy_fontaine said:
@kyuuuuu claims there would be absolutely no need for a lore gynomorph tag

You can't quote me on that because I never claimed such a thing.

leroy_fontaine said:
The "contradiction" appears to be in the comment that labelling a pre-transition trans woman "trans male" is used to attack them, while also apparently disagreeing about using a lore gynomorph tag that would help to keep this distinct.

How does my opinion that trans_male should not be applied to pre-transition trans women conflict with any of my opinions on the usage of gynomorph_lore? Neither of you have actually explained that yet.

leroy_fontaine said:
The main disagreement seems to be about:
A "cis" gynomorph being non binary or not, and therefore whether it makes sense to have a tag meaning "cis" i.e. comfortable in their assigned body, and "trans" i.e. not comfortable in their assigned body and taking steps to address that.

Regarding cis gynomorphs, I literally wrote that "though they're most likely either nonbinary or a woman, they could hypothetically have any gender", but that doesn't even have much to do with the reason that I'm opposed to cis_gynomorph and trans_gynomorph as tags, anyway.

demesejha said:
Furthermore as you wouldnt (if you didnt have to) refer to a trans woman as a Gynomorph the term trans_gynomorph feels semi sour to say. Not that you couldnt. You would likely just say trans woman.

When referring to body type, this website does unfortunately call trans people "male", "female", "gynomorph", etc. even if that conflicts with their identities. So on top of that, making trans_gynomorph a tag would necessitate the creation of tags like trans_male as well, which is even more obviously problematic, which is why I've been recommending against mixing trans/cis status with anatomical sex. It seems that so far we agree. But trans_woman is not a synonym to trans_gynomorph; those tags do not communicate the same information.

demesejha said:
Leaving characters who are intersex or otherwise magically endowed or its just their species or whatever bullshit explanation, in a lurch where their primary configuration is a body like that and they are happy with that.

That DOES NOT MAKE THEM NONBINARY.
We are not here to force a gender identity on anyone or their characters and the insinuation that we do is what I highly object to.

When did I insinuate that intersex characters are automatically nonbinary or that we're here to force a gender identity on anyone? My comments are all right there for you to read and copy+paste, but you still haven't quoted what you're talking about.

Alrighty.

I've updated the second post with what I think might be the simplest, easiest solution so far (and have copied it below in a section so you guys don't have to go back and look for it).

The ftm/mtf tags aren't currently in there because they are already pulling duty as actual TWYS tags, and we can't remove from there either without making visible sex transformation completely unfindable, or even harder to type.

Trans_*morph

are currently not included because I've never really seen anyone who would fall into that. Even transwoman that keep the wiener and complement it with a pair of boobs would likely be better off under trans_woman for the convenience of everyone. Especially considering basically everyone I know that would fall into that category do want to be referred to as transwoman.

Cis_*

tags are not included due to them being basically massive clutter with likely very little use from both non-trans folk and trans folk. As such I don't really see the value in trying to set that up, and having to maintain it, when it's not going to see much use. Especially, since those are basically a negation of -trans_* tags it would seem the functionality would still be there, just negate anything with a trans tag and you're good to go.

Questions remaining:

Do you guys want a trans_(lore) tag as umbrella for trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore)?
Do you want the long form (eg transgender_man, etc) as aliases for consistency?
Did I put all the terms in the proper place in the list?

Also, trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore) are now live, though most of the aliases haven't been hooked up yet.

Updated

Considering that these tags are now in place, how would pepper_(miu) be tagged? She is a trans woman (supposedly, I have no idea how this stuff works), and she is tagged by TWYS with either dickgirl or female; how would the lore tag apply to her?

You add both the TWYS sex tag and trans_woman_(lore) to the tags.

And that's it.

Though if you know about a source for trans status of the character it'd be great if that could be added to the character's wiki page.

notmenotyou said:
Tags actually shown:

  • trans_woman_(lore)
  • trans_man_(lore)

I hope this isn't all we're getting; what about nonbinary characters?

notmenotyou said:
Tags aliased to trans_woman_(lore):

  • trans_woman
  • transwoman
  • male-to-female
  • abab
  • dmab
  • transgirl
  • trans_female
  • transfemale
  • trans_feminine
  • transfeminine

Tags aliased to trans_man_(lore):

  • trans_man
  • transman
  • female-to-male
  • afab
  • dfab
  • transboy
  • trans_male
  • transmale
  • trans_masculine
  • transmasculine

The bolded terms should not be aliased.

  • Besides being confused with the TF tags, male-to-female and female-to-male aren't technically synonymous with trans woman/man respectively. For example, I'm a trans man, but I'm also intersex so I was never female.
  • The term "transfeminine" is used to lump trans women in with feminine-leaning nonbinary AMAB trans people (and same with transmasc). In short, not all transfeminine people are trans women, and not all transmasculine people are trans men.
  • Most importantly, it is very incorrect to alias AMAB/AFAB to trans woman/man, because the vast majority of people identify as the gender that they were assigned (i.e. are not trans). Also, I don't think that assigned sex tags would be very useful for this site anyway.

notmenotyou said:
Cis_* tags are not included due to them being basically massive clutter with likely very little use from both non-trans folk and trans folk. As such I don't really see the value in trying to set that up, and having to maintain it, when it's not going to see much use. Especially, since those are basically a negation of -trans_* tags it would seem the functionality would still be there, just negate anything with a trans tag and you're good to go.

You say that it won't see use, but aren't there lots of people who insist that their characters aren't trans? Also, -trans_* doesn't distinguish between actual cis characters and those that just haven't been tagged as trans yet.

notmenotyou said:
Do you guys want a trans_(lore) tag as umbrella for trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore)?

Yes, that would be helpful.

There are two main reasons that I've been insistent on having cis_* tags, and on having all *_<gender> tags imply <gender>. One reason is about respect, as having only trans_* gender tags sort of frames being trans as a weird "other"/"extra" thing that has to be labelled, while cis people's genders are so "normal" that it's not worth mentioning, or something like that. The other reason is for practical site usage, as it would make it possible to search and blacklist based on identified gender.

BTW, I updated the post where I've compiled and sorted all of the suggestions that people have made.

I don't think it is intentional, but trans_male and trans_female are now aliased to andromorph, and gynomorph respectively.

I glanced at the NMNY quote about cis. I think it might be useful to have a tag for trans character on cis character images or both trans. Whether that means a cis gender tag or we have tags like trans/trans, or cis/trans, I'm not sure. I'm just throwing it out there.

Updated

I don't think cis tags should be added as well, both for ease-of-use and also because you can get the same effect by just doing '-trans' without needing a cis tag to match every trans tag. It just wouldn't make much sense for a TWYS system where cis is the assumed default for most characters.

if we are gonna do lore tags now for binary trans folks, can we also have a nonbinary lore tag too pls? :D

pichi said:
I don't think cis tags should be added as well, both for ease-of-use and also because you can get the same effect by just doing '-trans' without needing a cis tag to match every trans tag. It just wouldn't make much sense for a TWYS system where cis is the assumed default for most characters.

gender isnt sex, pal. and the fact that u consider cis the default is the problem of unspoken inequality we trans folks are talking about here. remember, most characters on this site have not been identified as cis or trans by their creators anyway.

Cis is, by any reasonable measure, the default.
Trans folks are a minority (< 1% of the population).
Is there a single good reason why we wouldn't expect a randomly selected character to be ultimately resolved by the creator as cis, even after taking into consideration that artists draw what they like, not what is strictly representative of the community around them?

It's vital to have the aliasing not mistag non-binary characters, and it's vital for there to be tags that discern non-binary characters from both cis and binary trans characters!

savageorange said:
Cis is, by any reasonable measure, the default.
Trans folks are a minority (< 1% of the population).
Is there a single good reason why we wouldn't expect a randomly selected character to be ultimately resolved by the creator as cis, even after taking into consideration that artists draw what they like, not what is strictly representative of the community around them?

because maybe their works are based in worlds with less traditional gender identities common in their society. or they may be trans artists themselves. or they just may have never thought about the gender of the their characters that deeply, and never thought about their unconscious biases. im just saying, we shouldnt act like one group that obv more privileged then the other as the "default". that’s how u get people differentiating us from "normal people" and such :/

nerdbeep said:
because maybe their works are based in worlds with less traditional gender identities common in their society. or they may be trans artists themselves. or they just may have never thought about the gender of the their characters that deeply, and never thought about their unconscious biases.

I thought I addressed this?
It's possible that artists are skewed demographically and also taste-wise (an example being, drawing more trans characters than are represented in the average population). That doesn't mean we should demean the functional stereotype in use here: "most people are cis" means that such a demographic skew would have to be incredibly strong to prevent the average character from being, when the artist thought about it, ultimately resolved as either 'cisgender' or 'meh, IDGAF'.

im just saying, we shouldnt act like one group that obv more privileged then the other as the "default". that’s how u get people differentiating us from "normal people" and such :/

That's what being non-default is.

Either you are a distinct group that should be differentiated (ie 'trans person' is a valid category, and it's thus acceptable to identify yourself in such a way), or you aren't and can't be (ie. 'trans person' is not a valid category and it's not acceptable to identify yourself in such a way). People don't differentiate you if you are default, that would be a waste of effort.

The fact that this differentiation can be used in a cruel way doesn't change the basic reality that there is a default. Defaults actually matter in creating a functional system that people are willing to use (eg. furry is not a valid tag, not_furry is a valid tag; background is invalid, gradient_background and many other *_background are valid).

None of this is to say that any of a variety of tagging schemes couldn't be acceptable. Just that undermining 'defaults' is undermining the functionality of the system, and hence a non-starter.

kyuuuuu said:
I hope this isn't all we're getting; what about nonbinary characters?

It's not supposed to be all there will be, these were just the surefire ones I could use to test the new Bulk Update Request tool and the lore tags category to see if everything behaves well before I go and break something bigger.

Also, evidently I forgot to ask the question I had about nonbinary, because it's missing from the list.

The question I had about nonbinary would be whether non-binary or nonbinary would be preferred as shown.

kyuuuuu said:
The bolded terms should not be aliased.

  • Besides being confused with the TF tags, male-to-female and female-to-male aren't technically synonymous with trans woman/man respectively. For example, I'm a trans man, but I'm also intersex so I was never female.
  • The term "transfeminine" is used to lump trans women in with feminine-leaning nonbinary AMAB trans people (and same with transmasc). In short, not all transfeminine people are trans women, and not all transmasculine people are trans men.
  • Most importantly, it is very incorrect to alias AMAB/AFAB to trans woman/man, because the vast majority of people identify as the gender that they were assigned (i.e. are not trans). Also, I don't think that assigned sex tags would be very useful for this site anyway.

Yeah, the ftm/mtf tags would probably be best aliased into the actual transformation tags, if that hasn't already been done (at least with the spelling above).
The intention of trans_masculine/trans_feminine being aliased there is mostly to give them a slightly better use than to lay dormant as aliases towards gynomorph and andromorph respectively. While not entirely correct, I'd envisioned the alias to function more as a guide for people new to the site to find the actual trans tags, and go from there to the correct ones, instead of just being met with either "no results" or actual gynomorphs/andromorphs, and then possibly not finding the trans tags. The same would be going for amab/dmab/afab/dfab, they'd be there purely to allow us to "catch" all terms and steer people to the ones we actually use more easily without having to rely on documentation almost nobody is going to read before searching something.

As such, I feel the convenience of getting newcomers steered on the right track would be worth the technical inconsistencies here.

kyuuuuu said:
You say that it won't see use, but aren't there lots of people who insist that their characters aren't trans? Also, -trans_* doesn't distinguish between actual cis characters and those that just haven't been tagged as trans yet.

Those people do not care about the cis_tags, and they don't really offer much value as they're basically just saying the same thing as the regular gender tags would say, in addition to just causing more tags to be needed. We're already having pretty long tag lists in general, even on solo images, and the longer they get the less likely it is that people easily see and fix mistakes.
The assumption would also be that, eventually, all trans characters get tagged as such. Since it was a highly requested feature the hope is at least there people are actually going to use it for their own characters, instead of just hoping someone else does it.

kyuuuuu said:
There are two main reasons that I've been insistent on having cis_* tags, and on having all *_<gender> tags imply <gender>. One reason is about respect, as having only trans_* gender tags sort of frames being trans as a weird "other"/"extra" thing that has to be labelled, while cis people's genders are so "normal" that it's not worth mentioning, or something like that. The other reason is for practical site usage, as it would make it possible to search and blacklist based on identified gender.

BTW, I updated the post where I've compiled and sorted all of the suggestions that people have made.

I'm very pragmatic with things. Statistics shouldn't be used for discrimination and if the statistics say X is very common to the point where it's the most likely thing by a pretty huge margin we're simply hitting diminishing returns on usefulness - why use two tags to denote the same thing if the anatomical gender is most likely to already be the one the character identifies as - as well as the matter that it'd be a huge undertaking to actually tag the cis_* things on all applicable posts.

Updated

notmenotyou said:
The intention of trans_masculine/trans_feminine being aliased there is mostly to give them a slightly better use than to lay dormant as aliases towards gynomorph and andromorph respectively. While not entirely incorrect, I'd envisioned the alias to function more as a guide for people new to the site to find the actual trans tags, and go from there to the correct ones, instead of just being met with either "no results" or actual gynomorphs/andromorphs, and then possibly not finding the trans tags. The same would be going for amab/dmab/afab/dfab, they'd be there purely to allow us to "catch" all terms and steer people to the ones we actually use more easily without having to rely on documentation almost nobody is going to read before searching something.

As such, I feel the convenience of getting newcomers steered on the right track would be worth the technical inconsistencies here.

I find this argumentation solid enough for trans_masculine/trans_feminine tags, but not for amab/dmab/afab/dfab. It feels as though the meaning of amab is so completely detached from trans_woman that redirecting it would be unhelpful and may be outright harmful by causing mistagging. A character owner who's inexperienced with the website may attempt to tag a drawing of their own character as amab nonbinary, causing the post to receive contradictory lore tags, both of which came directly from an authoritative source. If the picture contains multiple characters, the error becomes even more difficult to detect. amab male on a cis character would also be unfortunate.

I think that if searching for amab returns no results, newcomers won't have a hard time figuring out we don't use that tag here, and if they're actually looking for trans characters, will easily come to conclusion they need to search for some sort of trans_* tags instead. I think the greater good in this instance would be to make sure the tags are intuitive rather than misleading and thus posts are tagged correctly.

Is it possible for there to be a tittyboy_(lore) or busty_boy_(lore) tag? There are some characters like Boosterpang's Jaimie and BNG's Benji that were canonically male and still identify as such, but have gotten breast implants so they appear to be Gynomorphs. Does this tag have room to exist, or does it have to be shunted?

notmenotyou said:
Also, evidently I forgot to ask the question I had about nonbinary, because it's missing from the list.

The question I had about nonbinary would be whether non-binary or nonbinary would be preferred as shown.

To answer this question with my own thoughts, seeing as it's a lore tag I'll find especially useful, the hyphenation of the word tends to be up to personal preference. I personally use the unhyphenated spelling, and from a cursory glance professional sources tend to alternate between both spellings.

The unhyphenated spelling might be better for tagging and searching in general as I find it a bit of a chore to type things like three-quarter_portrait over and over, especially on a phone where these characters aren't immediately available. If it came down to just me, I'd go for nonbinary_(lore).

^ +1. Hyphens are tedious and somewhat confusable with negated search terms, let's do less of them if possible.

The ones I would personally have for clarity sake, to be the most understood and least confusing is
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, no Breasts = Male
no Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Female
Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Herm/Hermaphrodite
Penis/Balls, Vagina, No breasts = Maleherm
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, Breasts = Dickgirl
No Penis/Bals, Vagina, no Breasts = cuntboy

Male that you may mistake for a Female = Femboy
Female that you may mistake for a Male = Tomboy

After searching up Andromorph and Gynomorph, they basically mean Man and Woman in greek, or something that physically appears as them, so I think using them for intersex tags is misleading.

Wikipedia:
In biology, a gynomorph is an organism with female physical characteristics, whereas an andromorph is an organism with male physical characteristics.

And to top it off, hundreds of images are being incorrectly tagged due to the confusion.

Updated

lunacy said:
Stuff weve already talked about at length

Ok for the first thing we are not talking about changing the tags back here. Thats not what this thread is for. Furthermore the tags aren't being changed back and its probably for the best to move on and solve new problems.

Second thing, that other thread seems to inform that the mistags are all occuring due to either Misuse (a quick look at the tag seems to share that some folks are tagging men as Andromorph's outright which is wrong) And that from that thread that some of the mistags are the result of an errant tag misassociation. This isn't sudden cause for alarm or for someone to change all the tags back to the old ones.

Also further reading into the tag I'm not seeing the massive amounts of apparent mistagging that's being complained about.

demesejha said:
Ok for the first thing we are not talking about changing the tags back here. Thats not what this thread is for. Furthermore the tags aren't being changed back and its probably for the best to move on and solve new problems.

I don't think there's any problem with going "I think the solution we had was fine" in a thread about finding solutions to a tagging conundrum (especially considering Lunacy is proposing something and not just retreading old ground). As unlikely as it is for the other tags to be reinstated, if nobody spoke up about it, nobody would know that there was even support for it. And I don't think there's any other thread that would be more fitting to put it in.

lunacy said:
The ones I would personally have for clarity sake, to be the most understood and least confusing is
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, no Breasts = Male
no Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Female
Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Herm/Hermaphrodite
Penis/Balls, Vagina, No breasts = Maleherm
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, Breasts = Dickgirl
No Penis/Bals, Vagina, no Breasts = cuntboy

Male that you may mistake for a Female = Femboy
Female that you may mistake for a Male = Tomboy

I don't know if you realize that this is what the guide to tagging genders literally says. The tagging issues aren't the fault of the tags, it's the fault of people using the tags improperly. Many trans individuals (even myself) have used the wrong tags on purpose to communicate a point, which is part of why lore tags even exist to begin with.

lunacy said:
After searching up Andromorph and Gynomorph, they basically mean Man and Woman in greek, or something that physically appears as them, so I think using them for intersex tags is misleading.

(the literal definition of "gynomorph" and "andromorph" from Wikipedia)

And to top it off, hundreds of images are being incorrectly tagged due to the confusion.

The dictionary definition of something doesn't override how e621 uses the word. e621 inherently gauges physical characteristics as distinct from sexual ones, otherwise andromorph, gynomorph and their slur equivalents wouldn't even exist. Based on your logic we should just go back to the slur tags because penis = male and vagina = female, which is... wrong, and again, not what this thread is for.

Updated

Generally speaking "non-binary" is considered the proper spelling, but if hyphens break tags then dropping it for "nonbinary" is fine. When should we expect this tag btw? I wanna upload more art of my fursona but don't want missing lore tags.