Now that we're setting up real transgender tags, can we get dickgirl and cuntboy back for non-trans characters?

pichi said:
Now that we're setting up real transgender tags, can we get dickgirl and cuntboy back for non-trans characters?

The answer to this has already been no, especially considering lore tags are not replacing conventional tags, which would mean those tags would be tagged ON trans characters. So again, no.

demesejha said:
The answer to this has already been no, especially considering lore tags are not replacing conventional tags, which would mean those tags would be tagged ON trans characters. So again, no.

Ngl that kinda sucks. I really like them.

demesejha said:
I had noticed the lore tag listing of gynomorph but find it important to note that due to the point of these lore tags in the first place just having lore_gynomorph is functionally useless as it is identical to the tag in current use for twys defeating the purpose of having a second tag thats identical.

leroy_fontaine said:
@demesejha rightfully noted that one of the prime usages for a lore tag of gynomorph would be for a situation where it is unclear if the character is gynomorph from birth or some variant of trans woman (in the process, decided they're more comfortable with both tits+dick, etc.)

A gynomorph lore tag will be used for characters who canonically have the "gynomorph" body type, whether or not it's visibly apparent in the image (since when it isn't, TWYS won't allow it), and regardless of how they got that way. In order to indicate that a character is cis or trans or what their identified gender is, that's what the cis/trans and gender identity tags are for.

leroy_fontaine said:
@kyuuuuu claims there would be absolutely no need for a lore gynomorph tag

You can't quote me on that because I never claimed such a thing.

leroy_fontaine said:
The "contradiction" appears to be in the comment that labelling a pre-transition trans woman "trans male" is used to attack them, while also apparently disagreeing about using a lore gynomorph tag that would help to keep this distinct.

How does my opinion that trans_male should not be applied to pre-transition trans women conflict with any of my opinions on the usage of gynomorph_lore? Neither of you have actually explained that yet.

leroy_fontaine said:
The main disagreement seems to be about:
A "cis" gynomorph being non binary or not, and therefore whether it makes sense to have a tag meaning "cis" i.e. comfortable in their assigned body, and "trans" i.e. not comfortable in their assigned body and taking steps to address that.

Regarding cis gynomorphs, I literally wrote that "though they're most likely either nonbinary or a woman, they could hypothetically have any gender", but that doesn't even have much to do with the reason that I'm opposed to cis_gynomorph and trans_gynomorph as tags, anyway.

demesejha said:
Furthermore as you wouldnt (if you didnt have to) refer to a trans woman as a Gynomorph the term trans_gynomorph feels semi sour to say. Not that you couldnt. You would likely just say trans woman.

When referring to body type, this website does unfortunately call trans people "male", "female", "gynomorph", etc. even if that conflicts with their identities. So on top of that, making trans_gynomorph a tag would necessitate the creation of tags like trans_male as well, which is even more obviously problematic, which is why I've been recommending against mixing trans/cis status with anatomical sex. It seems that so far we agree. But trans_woman is not a synonym to trans_gynomorph; those tags do not communicate the same information.

demesejha said:
Leaving characters who are intersex or otherwise magically endowed or its just their species or whatever bullshit explanation, in a lurch where their primary configuration is a body like that and they are happy with that.

That DOES NOT MAKE THEM NONBINARY.
We are not here to force a gender identity on anyone or their characters and the insinuation that we do is what I highly object to.

When did I insinuate that intersex characters are automatically nonbinary or that we're here to force a gender identity on anyone? My comments are all right there for you to read and copy+paste, but you still haven't quoted what you're talking about.

The bulk update request #13 (forum #) has been approved by @NotMeNotYou.

Alrighty.

I've updated the second post with what I think might be the simplest, easiest solution so far (and have copied it below in a section so you guys don't have to go back and look for it).

The ftm/mtf tags aren't currently in there because they are already pulling duty as actual TWYS tags, and we can't remove from there either without making visible sex transformation completely unfindable, or even harder to type.

are currently not included because I've never really seen anyone who would fall into that. Even transwoman that keep the wiener and complement it with a pair of boobs would likely be better off under trans_woman for the convenience of everyone. Especially considering basically everyone I know that would fall into that category do want to be referred to as transwoman.

tags are not included due to them being basically massive clutter with likely very little use from both non-trans folk and trans folk. As such I don't really see the value in trying to set that up, and having to maintain it, when it's not going to see much use. Especially, since those are basically a negation of -trans_* tags it would seem the functionality would still be there, just negate anything with a trans tag and you're good to go.

Questions remaining:

Do you guys want a trans_(lore) tag as umbrella for trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore)?
Do you want the long form (eg transgender_man, etc) as aliases for consistency?
Did I put all the terms in the proper place in the list?

Also, trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore) are now live, though most of the aliases haven't been hooked up yet.

Considering that these tags are now in place, how would pepper_(miu) be tagged? She is a trans woman (supposedly, I have no idea how this stuff works), and she is tagged by TWYS with either dickgirl or female; how would the lore tag apply to her?

You add both the TWYS sex tag and trans_woman_(lore) to the tags.

And that's it.

Though if you know about a source for trans status of the character it'd be great if that could be added to the character's wiki page.

Cool! I'll get on doing that for my uploads today.

The tag alias transwoman -> trans_woman_(lore has been rejected by @NotMeNotYou.

The tag alias trans_woman -> trans_woman_(lore has been rejected by @NotMeNotYou.

Edit by NMNY: Made a typo, fixed the broken aliases.

notmenotyou said:
Tags actually shown:

• trans_woman_(lore)
• trans_man_(lore)

I hope this isn't all we're getting; what about nonbinary characters?

notmenotyou said:
Tags aliased to trans_woman_(lore):

• trans_woman
• transwoman
• male-to-female
• abab
• dmab
• transgirl
• trans_female
• transfemale
• trans_feminine
• transfeminine

Tags aliased to trans_man_(lore):

• trans_man
• transman
• female-to-male
• afab
• dfab
• transboy
• trans_male
• transmale
• trans_masculine
• transmasculine

The bolded terms should not be aliased.

• Besides being confused with the TF tags, male-to-female and female-to-male aren't technically synonymous with trans woman/man respectively. For example, I'm a trans man, but I'm also intersex so I was never female.
• The term "transfeminine" is used to lump trans women in with feminine-leaning nonbinary AMAB trans people (and same with transmasc). In short, not all transfeminine people are trans women, and not all transmasculine people are trans men.
• Most importantly, it is very incorrect to alias AMAB/AFAB to trans woman/man, because the vast majority of people identify as the gender that they were assigned (i.e. are not trans). Also, I don't think that assigned sex tags would be very useful for this site anyway.

notmenotyou said:
Cis_* tags are not included due to them being basically massive clutter with likely very little use from both non-trans folk and trans folk. As such I don't really see the value in trying to set that up, and having to maintain it, when it's not going to see much use. Especially, since those are basically a negation of -trans_* tags it would seem the functionality would still be there, just negate anything with a trans tag and you're good to go.

You say that it won't see use, but aren't there lots of people who insist that their characters aren't trans? Also, -trans_* doesn't distinguish between actual cis characters and those that just haven't been tagged as trans yet.

notmenotyou said:
Do you guys want a trans_(lore) tag as umbrella for trans_man_(lore) and trans_woman_(lore)?

Yes, that would be helpful.

There are two main reasons that I've been insistent on having cis_* tags, and on having all *_<gender> tags imply <gender>. One reason is about respect, as having only trans_* gender tags sort of frames being trans as a weird "other"/"extra" thing that has to be labelled, while cis people's genders are so "normal" that it's not worth mentioning, or something like that. The other reason is for practical site usage, as it would make it possible to search and blacklist based on identified gender.

BTW, I updated the post where I've compiled and sorted all of the suggestions that people have made.

I don't think it is intentional, but trans_male and trans_female are now aliased to andromorph, and gynomorph respectively.

I glanced at the NMNY quote about cis. I think it might be useful to have a tag for trans character on cis character images or both trans. Whether that means a cis gender tag or we have tags like trans/trans, or cis/trans, I'm not sure. I'm just throwing it out there.

thevileone said:
I don't think it is intentional, but trans_male and trans_female are now aliased to andromorph, and gynomorph respectively.

Those appear to be old aliases from October 2018

I don't think cis tags should be added as well, both for ease-of-use and also because you can get the same effect by just doing '-trans' without needing a cis tag to match every trans tag. It just wouldn't make much sense for a TWYS system where cis is the assumed default for most characters.

if we are gonna do lore tags now for binary trans folks, can we also have a nonbinary lore tag too pls? :D

pichi said:
I don't think cis tags should be added as well, both for ease-of-use and also because you can get the same effect by just doing '-trans' without needing a cis tag to match every trans tag. It just wouldn't make much sense for a TWYS system where cis is the assumed default for most characters.

gender isnt sex, pal. and the fact that u consider cis the default is the problem of unspoken inequality we trans folks are talking about here. remember, most characters on this site have not been identified as cis or trans by their creators anyway.

Cis is, by any reasonable measure, the default.
Trans folks are a minority (< 1% of the population).
Is there a single good reason why we wouldn't expect a randomly selected character to be ultimately resolved by the creator as cis, even after taking into consideration that artists draw what they like, not what is strictly representative of the community around them?

It's vital to have the aliasing not mistag non-binary characters, and it's vital for there to be tags that discern non-binary characters from both cis and binary trans characters!

savageorange said:
Cis is, by any reasonable measure, the default.
Trans folks are a minority (< 1% of the population).
Is there a single good reason why we wouldn't expect a randomly selected character to be ultimately resolved by the creator as cis, even after taking into consideration that artists draw what they like, not what is strictly representative of the community around them?

because maybe their works are based in worlds with less traditional gender identities common in their society. or they may be trans artists themselves. or they just may have never thought about the gender of the their characters that deeply, and never thought about their unconscious biases. im just saying, we shouldnt act like one group that obv more privileged then the other as the "default". that’s how u get people differentiating us from "normal people" and such :/

nerdbeep said:
because maybe their works are based in worlds with less traditional gender identities common in their society. or they may be trans artists themselves. or they just may have never thought about the gender of the their characters that deeply, and never thought about their unconscious biases.

I thought I addressed this?
It's possible that artists are skewed demographically and also taste-wise (an example being, drawing more trans characters than are represented in the average population). That doesn't mean we should demean the functional stereotype in use here: "most people are cis" means that such a demographic skew would have to be incredibly strong to prevent the average character from being, when the artist thought about it, ultimately resolved as either 'cisgender' or 'meh, IDGAF'.

im just saying, we shouldnt act like one group that obv more privileged then the other as the "default". that’s how u get people differentiating us from "normal people" and such :/

That's what being non-default is.

Either you are a distinct group that should be differentiated (ie 'trans person' is a valid category, and it's thus acceptable to identify yourself in such a way), or you aren't and can't be (ie. 'trans person' is not a valid category and it's not acceptable to identify yourself in such a way). People don't differentiate you if you are default, that would be a waste of effort.

The fact that this differentiation can be used in a cruel way doesn't change the basic reality that there is a default. Defaults actually matter in creating a functional system that people are willing to use (eg. furry is not a valid tag, not_furry is a valid tag; background is invalid, gradient_background and many other *_background are valid).

None of this is to say that any of a variety of tagging schemes couldn't be acceptable. Just that undermining 'defaults' is undermining the functionality of the system, and hence a non-starter.

kyuuuuu said:
I hope this isn't all we're getting; what about nonbinary characters?

It's not supposed to be all there will be, these were just the surefire ones I could use to test the new Bulk Update Request tool and the lore tags category to see if everything behaves well before I go and break something bigger.

Also, evidently I forgot to ask the question I had about nonbinary, because it's missing from the list.

The question I had about nonbinary would be whether non-binary or nonbinary would be preferred as shown.

kyuuuuu said:
The bolded terms should not be aliased.

• Besides being confused with the TF tags, male-to-female and female-to-male aren't technically synonymous with trans woman/man respectively. For example, I'm a trans man, but I'm also intersex so I was never female.
• The term "transfeminine" is used to lump trans women in with feminine-leaning nonbinary AMAB trans people (and same with transmasc). In short, not all transfeminine people are trans women, and not all transmasculine people are trans men.
• Most importantly, it is very incorrect to alias AMAB/AFAB to trans woman/man, because the vast majority of people identify as the gender that they were assigned (i.e. are not trans). Also, I don't think that assigned sex tags would be very useful for this site anyway.

Yeah, the ftm/mtf tags would probably be best aliased into the actual transformation tags, if that hasn't already been done (at least with the spelling above).
The intention of trans_masculine/trans_feminine being aliased there is mostly to give them a slightly better use than to lay dormant as aliases towards gynomorph and andromorph respectively. While not entirely correct, I'd envisioned the alias to function more as a guide for people new to the site to find the actual trans tags, and go from there to the correct ones, instead of just being met with either "no results" or actual gynomorphs/andromorphs, and then possibly not finding the trans tags. The same would be going for amab/dmab/afab/dfab, they'd be there purely to allow us to "catch" all terms and steer people to the ones we actually use more easily without having to rely on documentation almost nobody is going to read before searching something.

As such, I feel the convenience of getting newcomers steered on the right track would be worth the technical inconsistencies here.

kyuuuuu said:
You say that it won't see use, but aren't there lots of people who insist that their characters aren't trans? Also, -trans_* doesn't distinguish between actual cis characters and those that just haven't been tagged as trans yet.

Those people do not care about the cis_tags, and they don't really offer much value as they're basically just saying the same thing as the regular gender tags would say, in addition to just causing more tags to be needed. We're already having pretty long tag lists in general, even on solo images, and the longer they get the less likely it is that people easily see and fix mistakes.
The assumption would also be that, eventually, all trans characters get tagged as such. Since it was a highly requested feature the hope is at least there people are actually going to use it for their own characters, instead of just hoping someone else does it.

kyuuuuu said:
There are two main reasons that I've been insistent on having cis_* tags, and on having all *_<gender> tags imply <gender>. One reason is about respect, as having only trans_* gender tags sort of frames being trans as a weird "other"/"extra" thing that has to be labelled, while cis people's genders are so "normal" that it's not worth mentioning, or something like that. The other reason is for practical site usage, as it would make it possible to search and blacklist based on identified gender.

BTW, I updated the post where I've compiled and sorted all of the suggestions that people have made.

I'm very pragmatic with things. Statistics shouldn't be used for discrimination and if the statistics say X is very common to the point where it's the most likely thing by a pretty huge margin we're simply hitting diminishing returns on usefulness - why use two tags to denote the same thing if the anatomical gender is most likely to already be the one the character identifies as - as well as the matter that it'd be a huge undertaking to actually tag the cis_* things on all applicable posts.

notmenotyou said:
The intention of trans_masculine/trans_feminine being aliased there is mostly to give them a slightly better use than to lay dormant as aliases towards gynomorph and andromorph respectively. While not entirely incorrect, I'd envisioned the alias to function more as a guide for people new to the site to find the actual trans tags, and go from there to the correct ones, instead of just being met with either "no results" or actual gynomorphs/andromorphs, and then possibly not finding the trans tags. The same would be going for amab/dmab/afab/dfab, they'd be there purely to allow us to "catch" all terms and steer people to the ones we actually use more easily without having to rely on documentation almost nobody is going to read before searching something.

As such, I feel the convenience of getting newcomers steered on the right track would be worth the technical inconsistencies here.

I find this argumentation solid enough for trans_masculine/trans_feminine tags, but not for amab/dmab/afab/dfab. It feels as though the meaning of amab is so completely detached from trans_woman that redirecting it would be unhelpful and may be outright harmful by causing mistagging. A character owner who's inexperienced with the website may attempt to tag a drawing of their own character as amab nonbinary, causing the post to receive contradictory lore tags, both of which came directly from an authoritative source. If the picture contains multiple characters, the error becomes even more difficult to detect. amab male on a cis character would also be unfortunate.

I think that if searching for amab returns no results, newcomers won't have a hard time figuring out we don't use that tag here, and if they're actually looking for trans characters, will easily come to conclusion they need to search for some sort of trans_* tags instead. I think the greater good in this instance would be to make sure the tags are intuitive rather than misleading and thus posts are tagged correctly.

Is it possible for there to be a tittyboy_(lore) or busty_boy_(lore) tag? There are some characters like Boosterpang's Jaimie and BNG's Benji that were canonically male and still identify as such, but have gotten breast implants so they appear to be Gynomorphs. Does this tag have room to exist, or does it have to be shunted?

notmenotyou said:
Also, evidently I forgot to ask the question I had about nonbinary, because it's missing from the list.

The question I had about nonbinary would be whether non-binary or nonbinary would be preferred as shown.

To answer this question with my own thoughts, seeing as it's a lore tag I'll find especially useful, the hyphenation of the word tends to be up to personal preference. I personally use the unhyphenated spelling, and from a cursory glance professional sources tend to alternate between both spellings.

The unhyphenated spelling might be better for tagging and searching in general as I find it a bit of a chore to type things like three-quarter_portrait over and over, especially on a phone where these characters aren't immediately available. If it came down to just me, I'd go for nonbinary_(lore).

^ +1. Hyphens are tedious and somewhat confusable with negated search terms, let's do less of them if possible.

The ones I would personally have for clarity sake, to be the most understood and least confusing is
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, no Breasts = Male
no Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Female
Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Herm/Hermaphrodite
Penis/Balls, Vagina, No breasts = Maleherm
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, Breasts = Dickgirl
No Penis/Bals, Vagina, no Breasts = cuntboy

Male that you may mistake for a Female = Femboy
Female that you may mistake for a Male = Tomboy

After searching up Andromorph and Gynomorph, they basically mean Man and Woman in greek, or something that physically appears as them, so I think using them for intersex tags is misleading.

Wikipedia:
In biology, a gynomorph is an organism with female physical characteristics, whereas an andromorph is an organism with male physical characteristics.

And to top it off, hundreds of images are being incorrectly tagged due to the confusion.

lunacy said:
Stuff weve already talked about at length

Ok for the first thing we are not talking about changing the tags back here. Thats not what this thread is for. Furthermore the tags aren't being changed back and its probably for the best to move on and solve new problems.

Second thing, that other thread seems to inform that the mistags are all occuring due to either Misuse (a quick look at the tag seems to share that some folks are tagging men as Andromorph's outright which is wrong) And that from that thread that some of the mistags are the result of an errant tag misassociation. This isn't sudden cause for alarm or for someone to change all the tags back to the old ones.

Also further reading into the tag I'm not seeing the massive amounts of apparent mistagging that's being complained about.

"ABAB" is a typo... right?
AMAB is "assigned male @ birth", ABAB is "assigned baby @ birth" (ie, a meme).

demesejha said:
Ok for the first thing we are not talking about changing the tags back here. Thats not what this thread is for. Furthermore the tags aren't being changed back and its probably for the best to move on and solve new problems.

I don't think there's any problem with going "I think the solution we had was fine" in a thread about finding solutions to a tagging conundrum (especially considering Lunacy is proposing something and not just retreading old ground). As unlikely as it is for the other tags to be reinstated, if nobody spoke up about it, nobody would know that there was even support for it. And I don't think there's any other thread that would be more fitting to put it in.

lunacy said:
The ones I would personally have for clarity sake, to be the most understood and least confusing is
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, no Breasts = Male
no Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Female
Penis/Balls, Vagina, Breasts = Herm/Hermaphrodite
Penis/Balls, Vagina, No breasts = Maleherm
Penis/Balls, no Vagina, Breasts = Dickgirl
No Penis/Bals, Vagina, no Breasts = cuntboy

Male that you may mistake for a Female = Femboy
Female that you may mistake for a Male = Tomboy

I don't know if you realize that this is what the guide to tagging genders literally says. The tagging issues aren't the fault of the tags, it's the fault of people using the tags improperly. Many trans individuals (even myself) have used the wrong tags on purpose to communicate a point, which is part of why lore tags even exist to begin with.

lunacy said:
After searching up Andromorph and Gynomorph, they basically mean Man and Woman in greek, or something that physically appears as them, so I think using them for intersex tags is misleading.

(the literal definition of "gynomorph" and "andromorph" from Wikipedia)

And to top it off, hundreds of images are being incorrectly tagged due to the confusion.

The dictionary definition of something doesn't override how e621 uses the word. e621 inherently gauges physical characteristics as distinct from sexual ones, otherwise andromorph, gynomorph and their slur equivalents wouldn't even exist. Based on your logic we should just go back to the slur tags because penis = male and vagina = female, which is... wrong, and again, not what this thread is for.

Generally speaking "non-binary" is considered the proper spelling, but if hyphens break tags then dropping it for "nonbinary" is fine. When should we expect this tag btw? I wanna upload more art of my fursona but don't want missing lore tags.

Yay, we've got gender lore tags! I've seen them on the site!

But wait... females get 'em. Trans women get 'em. Cuntboys and Dickgirls... don't?

Oh wait! We do! But someone's already aliased them to andromorph/gynomorph lore tags. Great.

The promise of being able to at least 'lore tag' our characters correctly, snatched away at the last moment.

Okay! So, melodrama over, is this alias an accident? Or was it intentional? Also, why does the management seem to want to erase us so bad? I mean, if you don't wanna see cuntboys like me on the site, then this is one way to do it, but it seems like a rather roundabout way of doing it...

Any updates on adding nonbinary lore tags?

mako_rivers said:
Yay, we've got gender lore tags! I've seen them on the site!

But wait... females get 'em. Trans women get 'em. Cuntboys and Dickgirls... don't?

Oh wait! We do! But someone's already aliased them to andromorph/gynomorph lore tags. Great.

The promise of being able to at least 'lore tag' our characters correctly, snatched away at the last moment.

Okay! So, melodrama over, is this alias an accident? Or was it intentional? Also, why does the management seem to want to erase us so bad? I mean, if you don't wanna see cuntboys like me on the site, then this is one way to do it, but it seems like a rather roundabout way of doing it...

cuntboy and dickgirl was aliased to andromorph and gynomorph to make the tags more polite, I think it was mostly done for safe posts and e926.

versperus said:
cuntboy and dickgirl was aliased to andromorph and gynomorph to make the tags more polite, I think it was mostly done for safe posts and e926.

Safe posts rarely get andro/gynomorph. Iirc it was aliased to be more polite indeed as there are people who disliked those terms.

hairnoi said:
Safe posts rarely get andro/gynomorph. Iirc it was aliased to be more polite indeed as there are people who disliked those terms.

The people who didn't like the terms were being incorrectly tagged with it. Now they have lore tags for female and trans characters. So why not a set of lore tags for non binary characters?

^ This is the first I've ever heard of 'cuntboy' / 'dickgirl' indicating 'non-binary'. Considering the origin of these tags in TWYS, I think you would have to justify that connection before there was any chance of admin approval for such lore tags.
And maybe also justify why we shouldn't instead do the obvious alternative - apply a *morph tag in combination with nonbinary_(lore).

savageorange said:
^ This is the first I've ever heard of 'cuntboy' / 'dickgirl' indicating 'non-binary'. Considering the origin of these tags in TWYS, I think you would have to justify that connection before there was any chance of admin approval for such lore tags.
And maybe also justify why we shouldn't instead do the obvious alternative - apply a *morph tag in combination with nonbinary_(lore).

Well, I'll start with addressing the last part first. There is no point in an 'andromorph_lore' tag at all, to be frank. 'Andromorph' isn't a gender tag, it's a body-type tag. It works in TWYS, but as a 'gender_lore' tag, it seems rather pointless. If anything, a 'nonbinary_lore' tag should *replace* it, if not a 'intersex_male_lore' and 'intersex_female_lore' tag instead.
Also I just fucking hate the term. XD

And as for cuntboy and dickgirl relating to non-binary, I only relate them since anything other than male or female is technically non-binary if I'm understanding correctly.

mako_rivers said:
Well, I'll start with addressing the last part first. There is no point in an 'andromorph_lore' tag at all, to be frank. 'Andromorph' isn't a gender tag, it's a body-type tag. It works in TWYS, but as a 'gender_lore' tag, it seems rather pointless.

I think you're misunderstanding that body type + genitalia is still all the rules care about. Outside of the trans tags, the lore tags are just for when the TWYS-apparent traits do not match what is intended by the creator of the work. In that context there could be _(lore) tags for the intersex configurations, as there are many scenarios in which not all of a character is visible, or they're clothed. Of course, I imagine the argument from the site's point of view is that if part of a character is in obscured in that way, it's impossible to tell if that specific depiction of the character is in fact supposed to be intersex, and so the lore tags are only used to differentiate intended bodytype and not genitalia type.

magnuseffect said:
I think you're misunderstanding that body type + genitalia is still all the rules care about. Outside of the trans tags, the lore tags are just for when the TWYS-apparent traits do not match what is intended by the creator of the work. In that context there could be _(lore) tags for the intersex configurations, as there are many scenarios in which not all of a character is visible, or they're clothed. Of course, I imagine the argument from the site's point of view is that if part of a character is in obscured in that way, it's impossible to tell if that specific depiction of the character is in fact supposed to be intersex, and so the lore tags are only used to differentiate intended bodytype and not genitalia type.

What are you on about?
It doesn't matter if it's 'impossible to tell', because the lore tags should be getting set by the character owner/artist since they know. That's kinda the whole point.
And it's got nothing to do with 'intended bodytype' because the bodytype you see *is the one intended by the artist/character owner*.

These lore tags are so we can say, on a picture in which the character is too ambiguous or obscured for TWYS, what the character is.
For example, take the character 'Mikhaila_Kirov'. They are pretty much always drawn with the same bodytype. And they'd get tagged as 'andromorph' for it. There's no point in tagging them 'andromorph_lore' for the *intended bodytype*. They would be (by the owner/artist) tagged with 'female_lore', not because of the intended bodytype, but because *that is their gender*.
That's probably why this forum thread is about trans*gender* tags, not trans*bodytype* tags.

mako_rivers said:
What are you on about?
It doesn't matter if it's 'impossible to tell', because the lore tags should be getting set by the character owner/artist since they know. That's kinda the whole point.
And it's got nothing to do with 'intended bodytype' because the bodytype you see *is the one intended by the artist/character owner*.

Is the artist always here on-site to dictate which tags "should" be used? Does every source post contain that information? Does every post here have a source post in the first place?
As for TWYS and body-type, an artists intention and TWYS-guidelines are entirely different constructs. After all, you did immediately bring up Mikhaila. Maybe I used some bad wording.

It hasn't come up for a few posts, so I'd actually forgotten your issue here is not a lack of andromorph/gynomorph lore tags, but the lack of being able to separate cuntboy/dickgirl from those. I just gave myself a quick refresher on your earlier posts in this thread.
I've been a long-time proponent of e621 dropping the term gender in favour of sex. There are a very low number of cases where e621 actually cares about the gender of a character, only physical sexual characteristics. Which are already covered by andromorph/gynomorph in the case of characters who would be identified as cuntboy/dickgirl, and within the context of the lore category does not include " flat chested females and trans people. "

magnuseffect said:
Is the artist always here on-site to dictate which tags "should" be used? Does every source post contain that information? Does every post here have a source post in the first place?
As for TWYS and body-type, an artists intention and TWYS-guidelines are entirely different constructs. After all, you did immediately bring up Mikhaila. Maybe I used some bad wording.

It hasn't come up for a few posts, so I'd actually forgotten your issue here is not a lack of andromorph/gynomorph lore tags, but the lack of being able to separate cuntboy/dickgirl from those. I just gave myself a quick refresher on your earlier posts in this thread.
I've been a long-time proponent of e621 dropping the term gender in favour of sex. There are a very low number of cases where e621 actually cares about the gender of a character, only physical sexual characteristics. Which are already covered by andromorph/gynomorph in the case of characters who would be identified as cuntboy/dickgirl, and within the context of the lore category does not include " flat chested females and trans people. "

I never said they were. I only said that those tags should be getting set by the character owner/artist. I never once said that they will or have to, and I'm well aware that other people will set them, as several of my own images on this site have had it happen to them.
As for TWYS and body types, once again I never said that they were. An artists intentions for the bodytype are irrelevant, since the main TWYS system is essentially just 'what do we see here'.
That's where lore tags come in, they tell what the intention is. What gender the character is (even if that's at odds with what TWYS would say). Mikhaila is the perfect example because the artist *intends* to draw the masculine upper body. The identity is something that is just 'known', hence why it's lore.

And you're in luck, buddy. They already have, since the andromorph/gynomorph tag pair eliminates any specfic gender tags and just goes off the bodytype/physical sex as it's seen!
It certainly seems like you're misunderstanding the point of these lore tags, it's not to replace the TWYS sex tags, but to compliment them by letting people know more about the character they're viewing.
If you're all for e621 completely abandoning any semblance of 'gender', then you're better off going and starting a thread along the lines of 'lets get rid of lore tags'.

And andromorph is still a poor choice of tag for lore. As much as I'd like to be able to use my preferred term of cuntboy, I'll take 'intersex_male_lore' over andromorph any day of the week. I've stewed about it long enough that I really just hate the term.

mako_rivers said:
They would be (by the owner/artist) tagged with 'female_lore', not because of the intended bodytype, but because *that is their gender*.

No, they would be tagged female_(lore) because it depicts a character of the female sex. A male-bodied, flat-chested character with their dick and balls on full display would never be tagged female_(lore) even if the owner/artist says they identify as female. In the case of Mikhaila, as there is ambiguity between what a flat-chested female and an andromorph look like, and current TWYS rules state that a body like Mikhaila with a vagina is andromorph, the lore tags allow clarifying that they're of the female sex despite TWYS saying they're an andromorph. If the owner said Mikhaila identified as a male, they would not be tagged male_(lore) (they would be andromorph+trans_man_(lore)). The female_(lore), male_(lore), etc, tags are not gender identity tags, they're clarification of sex tags used when TWYS stumbles (note that it's still male and female, the terms normally used for physical sex, not man and woman, the terms normally used for gender identity).

watsit said:
No, they would be tagged female_(lore) because it depicts a character of the female sex. A male-bodied, flat-chested character with their dick and balls on full display would never be tagged female_(lore) even if the owner/artist says they identify as female. In the case of Mikhaila, as there is ambiguity between what a flat-chested female and an andromorph look like, and current TWYS rules state that a body like Mikhaila with a vagina is andromorph, the lore tags allow clarifying that they're of the female sex despite TWYS saying they're an andromorph. If the owner said Mikhaila identified as a male, they would not be tagged male_(lore) (they would be andromorph+trans_man_(lore)). The female_(lore), male_(lore), etc, tags are not gender identity tags, they're clarification of sex tags used when TWYS stumbles (note that it's still male and female, the terms normally used for physical sex, not man and woman, the terms normally used for gender identity).

I agree with you about the 'trans_male_lore' tag stuff, but otherwise you've just reworded what I already said.

mako_rivers said:
I never said they were. I only said that those tags should be getting set by the character owner/artist. I never once said that they will or have to, and I'm well aware that other people will set them, as several of my own images on this site have had it happen to them.
As for TWYS and body types, once again I never said that they were. An artists intentions for the bodytype are irrelevant, since the main TWYS system is essentially just 'what do we see here'.
That's where lore tags come in, they tell what the intention is. What gender the character is (even if that's at odds with what TWYS would say). Mikhaila is the perfect example because the artist *intends* to draw the masculine upper body. The identity is something that is just 'known', hence why it's lore.

And you're in luck, buddy. They already have, since the andromorph/gynomorph tag pair eliminates any specfic gender tags and just goes off the bodytype/physical sex as it's seen!
It certainly seems like you're misunderstanding the point of these lore tags, it's not to replace the TWYS sex tags, but to compliment them by letting people know more about the character they're viewing.
If you're all for e621 completely abandoning any semblance of 'gender', then you're better off going and starting a thread along the lines of 'lets get rid of lore tags'.

And andromorph is still a poor choice of tag for lore. As much as I'd like to be able to use my preferred term of cuntboy, I'll take 'intersex_male_lore' over andromorph any day of the week. I've stewed about it long enough that I really just hate the term.

The problem is that we try to have the system be as intuitive as possible, and that we try to avoid duplicate tags wherever and whenever possible. We have considered using intersex_male for a long time, but the problem with that tag was that it would make other related tags a mayor in the pain in the arse to use. The pairings tag, for example, would need to be intersex_male/intersex_female, we'd need intersex_male_penetrating_intersex_male.
Settling on those terms came mostly down to them having much less baggage attached to them, and still being short enough to be able to be used intuitively and not take an age to write out when searching for them.

I fully grant you that the definition of "female masquerading as a male" is demeaning to the spirit of it, but from my understanding that's purely because biology is more interested in what sex the organism has instead of what the majority of the rest of the body does. As long as it supplies viable sperm biology will see it as male, and as long as it supplies viable ovum it will be seen as female, the rest is supplementary at best (drastic oversimplification on purpose).
On the contrary, we'd rather use the definition from the other end: "Men but with female primary genitals". It's more useful to us from a tagging perspective, while still technically confirming to "andromorph".

This explanation might not be enough to sway your opinion, but we do mean no ill with this, it's just that andromorph is the option that makes the most people happy or indifferent.

yseult said:
Any updates on adding nonbinary lore tags?

I died off over it because I got really busy. The missing tags should be set up in a few minutes, though.

Edit: Bulk Request has been made. Please let me know if I did a stupid and I'll fix it before I'll hit the button on that tomorrow.

The bulk tag updates seem to have no glaring issues and look like theyll work great.

On the above discussion theres as to my knowledge nothing explicitly nonbinary inherent to the identities involved in those body shapes and in fact commonly Ive noticed the opposite most times.

Non-Binary as an identity simply means you do not feel that you fit into either social strata cleanly and has little to nothing to do with body type.

The plea to add slur tags back in under the guise of it being for nonbinary rep is a little mindboggling.

In functional terms, saying that an andromorph body is automatically nonbinary is ignorant at best and at worst maliciously intentionally throws out actual people's identities.

There is nothing functionally wrong with the new terms. We have trans labels now on top of that as well. Its all in all a good compromise for the system.

There is little to no value to bring back a word that's origin is dehumanisation. And again as mentioned for the 5th or 6th time this... thread is really not the place to ask to swap back to the old tags.

notmenotyou said:
The problem is that we try to have the system be as intuitive as possible, and that we try to avoid duplicate tags wherever and whenever possible. We have considered using intersex_male for a long time, but the problem with that tag was that it would make other related tags a mayor in the pain in the arse to use. The pairings tag, for example, would need to be intersex_male/intersex_female, we'd need intersex_male_penetrating_intersex_male.
Settling on those terms came mostly down to them having much less baggage attached to them, and still being short enough to be able to be used intuitively and not take an age to write out when searching for them.

I fully grant you that the definition of "female masquerading as a male" is demeaning to the spirit of it, but from my understanding that's purely because biology is more interested in what sex the organism has instead of what the majority of the rest of the body does. As long as it supplies viable sperm biology will see it as male, and as long as it supplies viable ovum it will be seen as female, the rest is supplementary at best (drastic oversimplification on purpose).
On the contrary, we'd rather use the definition from the other end: "Men but with female primary genitals". It's more useful to us from a tagging perspective, while still technically confirming to "andromorph".

This explanation might not be enough to sway your opinion, but we do mean no ill with this, it's just that andromorph is the option that makes the most people happy or indifferent.

So... we've gone from one horrible term to another, and there's no hope for changing it, not even just for the lore tags?
That's kind of a shame, but I guess it is what it is. I suppose you guys never were going to please everyone, goodness knows there'll always be someone offended by the lack of an option or the lack of choice. Never thought it'd be me. Oh well!

I'm kinda tired of all this, so rather than continuing to fight to be able to identify my characters with a term that is at least not totally offensive, I'll probably just be taking down all of my art in the next few days.
It's been fun, but I'd rather not have my art shared on a site that forces demeaning terms on me. At least on Furaffinity the tags are set by me, and only me.
Good day to you, sir. :)

notmenotyou said:
Edit: Bulk Request has been made.

I think non-binary_(lore) -> nonbinary_(lore) should be an alias instead of an implication.

And I'm not very knowledgable about this, but is the implication nonbinary_(lore) -> trans_(lore) a good one? I read the first page of this thread and it seems like intersex characters for example can be nonbinary_(lore) without being trans_(lore). Since these tags are primarily for the benefit of the character's creators I feel like we should leave that up to them. If someone just says their character is nonbinary_(lore) or agender_(lore) and nothing about transitioning then I think we should just tag that.

agender -> agender_(lore) could be a good addition too. In fact recently I uploaded a character that would be tagged with that if it was a lore tag.

There's literally nothing demeaning about the new tags at all, and there's several new options for trans related lore tags.

Genuinely honestly this argument is a joke right?

demesejha said:
There's literally nothing demeaning about the new tags at all, and there's several new options for trans related lore tags.

Genuinely honestly this argument is a joke right?

Oh, I'm so sorry, I totally forgot that things are only offensive if *you* find them offensive. My apologies, I'll make sure to check with you next time, Your Divine Offendedness!

No, seriously, you think that just because you're not offended by the term that noone is?
I'm sure you'd be upset if you had to put up with people *constantly* saying the term that best identifies you is a slur, and then have it forcibly replaced with one that means essentially '(a female) in the shape of a male' or whatever it is.
All I want is to be able to identify my likeness properly, with the term I prefer and feel comfortable with. And all it'd take on the admins part is to remove the alias that changes 'cuntboy_lore' to 'andromorph_lore' automatically. But based on what NotMeNotYou has said so far, they appear to have no interest in doing that.

Nothing makes the term cuntboy offensive except the people who say it is. And 'queer' used to be a slur too, used to be offensive as all hell. Nowadays it's the 'Q' in LGBTQ.

Same goes for andromorph. But wheras I'm happy to tolerate the term for it's literal meaning for the sake of TWYS, it seems tolerance is a one-way street.

And no. My arguement is not a joke.

notmenotyou said:
I died off over it because I got really busy. The missing tags should be set up in a few minutes, though.

Edit: Bulk Request has been made. Please let me know if I did a stupid and I'll fix it before I'll hit the button on that tomorrow.

Thank you!

First thing I notice is that the tag got sorted into general tags instead of lore tags.

The bulk update request #61 (forum #) has been approved by @NotMeNotYou.

mako_rivers said:
I'm sure you'd be upset if you had to put up with people *constantly* saying the term that best identifies you is a slur

Oh, hey, I know a thing or two about that. But tags are merely supposed to identify character traits and not those of their synonyms that the character owner feels most comfortable with. People here are too obsessed with words used by the tagging system; the description box is where you can describe your character's preferences, tags are simply supposed to make browsing the archive easy. They're not meant for you to stare at with satisfaction, people need them to find art they want to see.

The FurAffinity you mention is a nightmare to search, precisely because tags are not formalized and people use them like an extension of the description field. This website is an art archive and the search box is its core functionality. It's unfortunate if tags your character receives are not to your liking but I find it frankly childish to announce that you're taking your toys and going home, when the administration is clearly doing their best to accommodate wishes of as many people as possible and you *know* your preferred terms are controversial. It's just a search system, it's not trying to strip your identity away from you, don't take it so hard.

Unironically, by all means fight for the right to use "cuntboy" in general if that's the word that brings you comfort. Lord knows it's gonna be hard while dictionaries list "cunt" as one of the most vulgar English words, and the world is trying to shift away from the idea of genders being identified by genitals, but godspeed to you. Just accept that even if the word offends you, "andromorph" is a synonym that means the same thing and for that reason e621 has to use one of the two, not both, and in the current political climate, the one that doesn't contain a swear word for genitals seems to be causing less damage overall.

s-35 said:
Stuff.

Jesus christ, how many times do I have to fucking say it for it to get through everybody's thick fucking skulls?!

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TWYS TAGS.
I AM TALKING ABOUT LORE TAGS.
LORE TAGS!

L
O
R
E

T
A
G
S!!!!

You can have 'andromorph' for the TWYS tag, I'm over it! It's functionally accurate, and works to describe the bodytype in question.

I'm talking about the LORE TAGS in my arguement, since;
A - the lore tags don't override the TWYS tags and just compliment them, so people can see what the character is beyond the visible traits tagged under TWYS.
B - THERE IS ALREADY A CUNTBOY_LORE TAG IT JUST NEEDS TO BE UN-ALIASED.

That said, I'd be willing to bet the next person to respond to me will go on about 'oh, we're not replacing that tag because blah blah blah', and if you wanna reply to me without taking the five seconds required to read what I've said and then take the five minutes for the '_lore' part to sink into your brain, then DONT. BOTHER!

Even regarding lore tags, what S-35 said still stands.

s-35 said:

Unironically, by all means fight for the right to use "cuntboy" in general if that's the word that brings you comfort. Lord knows it's gonna be hard while dictionaries list "cunt" as one of the most vulgar English words, and the world is trying to shift away from the idea of genders being identified by genitals, but godspeed to you. Just accept that even if the word offends you, "andromorph" is a synonym that means the same thing and for that reason e621 has to use one of the two, not both, and in the current political climate, the one that doesn't contain a swear word for genitals seems to be causing less damage overall.

Ignoring the facts about how the word relates to trans folks in the community, you seem to forget that the word itself is still vulgar and literally insulting to 99% of the english speaking world.

What you dont seem to understand is that you are asking for a lore tag that people will then have available to apply as they please to any trans person other than yourself thus completely missing the point and undoing the progress that has been done with the tags. And all of us who are trans who do not want people using those words to describe us, as was the entire point of this exercise... will then have to fight people who range from well meaning but unaware to literally intentionally malicious.

What you are asking for isn't feasible because it goes entirely against the spirit of everything that has been built up so far.

And you keep speaking in all caps about how people aren't listening and how people don't get it but it seems very much that you are unwilling to admit that those words are actively harmful to some people, that the words are literally insulting to most people,m and have no place here anymore.

I don't have a personal horse in the gender race but I just want to say it's pretty frustrating to watch this argument drag on just because everyone's definitions are a bit out of phase with each other and those of the site construct, to such a degree that there's little-to-no comprehension between any two parties' explanations/arguments about why which things may/may not/should/shouldn't be the way they are/could be.

This has been another in a series of posts nobody will properly absorb because my own thought structure is weird as heck.

demesejha said:
Even regarding lore tags, what S-35 said still stands.

Ignoring the facts about how the word relates to trans folks in the community, you seem to forget that the word itself is still vulgar and literally insulting to 99% of the english speaking world.

What you dont seem to understand is that you are asking for a lore tag that people will then have available to apply as they please to any trans person other than yourself thus completely missing the point and undoing the progress that has been done with the tags. And all of us who are trans who do not want people using those words to describe us, as was the entire point of this exercise... will then have to fight people who range from well meaning but unaware to literally intentionally malicious.

What you are asking for isn't feasible because it goes entirely against the spirit of everything that has been built up so far.

And you keep speaking in all caps about how people aren't listening and how people don't get it but it seems very much that you are unwilling to admit that those words are actively harmful to some people, that the words are literally insulting to most people,m and have no place here anymore.

"Actively harmful".

Okay, politeness has ended.

What a load of utter, utter BULLSHIT. The only thing 'actively harmful' about the word is people like you who bend it into your own personal demon, acting like every time someone mentions the term 'cuntboy', they're automatically talking about trans folk. Like somehow they're always trying to put down a poor trans person for... god knows what reasons you've got in your head.
Me? I could care less if you identify as trans, cis, male, female, non-binary, no-gender... you could say your gender identity is the colour purple and I wouldn't give a shit. You do you, man!
So why is this level of tolerance so goddamn difficult for you? I don't wanna force my preferred term on you, and I don't want anyone else to do that either! All I want is the goddamn choice, so when people look at art of my character, they can see what gender he is canonically/based on lore.
I really cannot come up with any sensible reason as to why you're so opposed to the idea of people like me. Are you... afraid? Do you feel threatened by me? What is it?!
I've put up with this shit for so long, and I'm sick to goddamned death of it. People cry 'transphobia!' left, right, and bloody centre, preach 'respect my identity and pronouns', but then people like me come along and all of a sudden that goes out the window for some reason.
If you like 'andromorph' so much, maybe we should replace 'transmale' with 'female pretending to be a guy incl. body changes' and replace 'transfemale' with 'male pretending to be a girl incl. body changes'?
Oh no, wait, that would be transphobia? Oh, right, I forgot, respect and tolerance only goes one way, you guys deserve it all and should not have to repay a single goddamn iota of it, because the rest of us are just scum. We have to bend over backwards - the site has to change to include trans tags, even! - but when we ask the same of you, noooo, it can't be done because that'd be transphobic!
You say 'all of us who are trans do not want people using those words to describe us', well newsflash! Some of us don't want to be identified as 'andromorph' either. I'm not a girl with a male shape, and to argue that that is the correct term is, as far as I know, one of the key tenets of transphobia. Get off your fucking high horse, get a great big dose of tolerance in you.

.

.

Of course, I don't expect you to read a word of that beyond maybe the first sentence or two. Heck, the admins might even delete or heavily edit this post because of 'personal insults', I dunno. But, I felt it needed to be said, since I'm pretty much a one-cuntboy army against an army of 'reeee'ing trans people and admins who can't do anything other than appease them and silence dissidence lest they and the site become the next target.

Rant over.

@NotMeNotYou, if you do see this, I want a goddamn DNP for my character. Or at the very least a takedown for the current art. I don't want my likeness on this site anymore. You know where the direct-message feature is if you need more from me.

To clarify, everything I said applies to both TWYS and lore tags. Lore tags work slightly differently but they do not change the core purpose of the tagging system. They're general and widely applicable terms meant for searching the archive. Synonyms get aliased. Lore tags do not replace the description box.

mako_rivers said:
an army of 'reeee'ing trans people

I'm cis, for what it's worth, and had a similar argument about the word "trap" with Demesejha a few months ago. The difference is that I'm merely seeking to raise awareness that people like me exist, and reclaim and "decriminalize" the word I identify with, so to speak, not strong-arm the website into using a controversial term where it doesn't fit by issuing takedown requests.

s-35 said:
To clarify, everything I said applies to both TWYS and lore tags. Lore tags work slightly differently but they do not change the core purpose of the tagging system. They're general and widely applicable terms meant for searching the archive. Synonyms get aliased. Lore tags do not replace the description box.
I'm cis, for what it's worth, and had a similar argument about the word "trap" with Demesejha a few months ago. The difference is that I'm merely seeking to raise awareness that people like me exist, and reclaim and "decriminalize" the word I identify with, so to speak, not strong-arm the website into using a controversial term where it doesn't fit by issuing takedown requests.

I'm not trying to strong-arm jack diddly squat. I never said 'change it or I'll take my art down'. I've tried to fight for my identity, but nothing is going to change, so I don't want my art here. Simple as that.

s-35 said:
I'm cis, for what it's worth, and had a similar argument about the word "trap" with Demesejha a few months ago. The difference is that I'm merely seeking to raise awareness that people like me exist, and reclaim and "decriminalize" the word I identify with, so to speak, not strong-arm the website into using a controversial term where it doesn't fit by issuing takedown requests.

mako_rivers said:
I'm not trying to strong-arm jack diddly squat. I never said 'change it or I'll take my art down'. I've tried to fight for my identity, but nothing is going to change, so I don't want my art here. Simple as that.

And in truth I actually agree with you both. And on ideological level I heavily disagree with people like Demesejha and iceink and is why I am no longer part of the Trans community. I never found anything wrong with the word "Dickgirl" other then being "vulgar"as some put but then who cares when we have tags like Cock_vore and no one seems to really care. Truth be told I find dickgirl kinda funny and it throws people off when I identify as such, its funny to see their face go blank for a moment. Believe it or not its earned me more friends then enemies because it make me look like someone who can take a joke and not get all mad when I'm made fun of.

Truthfully it has always confused me how so many trans people will complain about tolerance and respect but when someone (Trans or not) challenges their perceptions it all goes out the window. I mean we do exist. Cis people who want to call themselves traps and Trans people who like the word Cuntboy or Dickgirl, why does that have "actively hateful and bad"?.

united_gamers said:
And in truth I actually agree with you both. And on ideological level I heavily disagree with people like Demesejha and iceink and is why I am no longer part of the Trans community. I never found anything wrong with the word "Dickgirl" other then being "vulgar"as some put but then who cares when we have tags like Cock_vore and no one seems to really care. Truth be told I find dickgirl kinda funny and it throws people off when I identify as such, its funny to see their face go blank for a moment. Believe it or not its earned me more friends then enemies because it make me look like someone who can take a joke and not get all mad when I'm made fun of.

Truthfully it has always confused me how so many trans people will complain about tolerance and respect but when someone (Trans or not) challenges their perceptions it all goes out the window. I mean we do exist. Cis people who want to call themselves traps and Trans people who like the word Cuntboy or Dickgirl, why does that have "actively hateful and bad"?.

One trans person being okay with the usage of slurs doesn't remove the damage caused to another trans person who isn't okay with it. People who insist on using slurs towards people that recognize them as dehumanizing them, and a way of rhetorically justifying violence and discrimination against them aren't being tolerant or respectful.

iceink said:
One trans person being okay with the usage of slurs doesn't remove the damage caused to another trans person who isn't okay with it. People who insist on using slurs towards people that recognize them as dehumanizing them, and a way of rhetorically justifying violence and discrimination against them aren't being tolerant or respectful.

We don't insist on using our terms on people who don't identify with them.

iceink said:
One trans person being okay with the usage of slurs doesn't remove the damage caused to another trans person who isn't okay with it. People who insist on using slurs towards people that recognize them as dehumanizing them, and a way of rhetorically justifying violence and discrimination against them aren't being tolerant or respectful.

Why would it be a slur if it's only being applied to the images it accurately applies to? As it should be under normal tagging rules. Especially considering the consideration of whether or not they are slurs isn't why they were removed in the first place. It was for vulgarity, but there are already far more 'vulgar' tags.

pichi said:
Why would it be a slur if it's only being applied to the images it accurately applies to? As it should be under normal tagging rules. Especially considering the consideration of whether or not they are slurs isn't why they were removed in the first place. It was for vulgarity, but there are already far more 'vulgar' tags.

Because a slur is still a slur. It isn't okay to call a man a fag because "well he actually is gay so it's accurate" using your line of psuedo-reasoning. It's a word used to dehumanize someone and make them feel shitty about themselves. Trans people are called dickgirls, shemales, traps, etc because they want to degrade us. I don't know why people try to extend this degradation to seem okay beyond the context of porn other than, y'knoooooow, people find the degrading treatment arousing thus they diehard defend it at all costs. u_u

iceink said:
Because a slur is still a slur. It isn't okay to call a man a fag because "well he actually is gay so it's accurate" using your line of psuedo-reasoning. It's a word used to dehumanize someone and make them feel shitty about themselves. Trans people are called dickgirls, shemales, traps, etc because they want to degrade us. I don't know why people try to extend this degradation to seem okay beyond the context of porn other than, y'knoooooow, people find the degrading treatment arousing thus they diehard defend it at all costs. u_u

Dude(tte) they are literally asking to be called that. They aren't asking to refer to anyone else by that term, they are asking to be referred to it. This is the problem I see in this thread; "We want to call ourselves what we want using the lore tags" "Okay, can we refer to OURselves as what we want using the lore tags?" "No, because what you're calling yourself offends me because I don't like being called that term"

Edit: words.

votp said:
Dude(tte) they are literally asking to be called that. They aren't asking to refer to anyone else by that term, they are asking to be referred to it. This is the problem I see in this thread; "We want to call ourselves what we want using the lore tags" "Okay, can we refer to OURselves as what we want using the lore tags?" "No, because what you're calling yourself offends me because I don't like being called that term"

Edit: words.

Calling yourself it is one thing, but letting other people call you it, and ignoring it when other people who don't want to be called it are, thus making it seem okay for other people to call those that don't want to be called it is something different.

But unless there is actual rule that's there saying you can't do that why is this being discussed?

iceink said:
Calling yourself it is one thing, but letting other people call you it, and ignoring it when other people who don't want to be called it are, thus making it seem okay for other people to call those that don't want to be called it is something different.

But unless there is actual rule that's there saying you can't do that why is this being discussed?

Because the tags that allowed people to call their characters that got removed for being vulgar, and now people want to keep them removed for being "slurs" despite that never being a factor to begin with.

iceink said:
Calling yourself it is one thing, but letting other people call you it, and ignoring it when other people who don't want to be called it are, thus making it seem okay for other people to call those that don't want to be called it is something different.

But unless there is actual rule that's there saying you can't do that why is this being discussed?

Nobody is saying that. People are asking to have the rights to be referred to whatever they want to be referred to as, they aren't supporting taking away the tags for other people they aren't trying to say it's okay to call everyone that just that they want to to be called that themselves.

votp said:
Nobody is saying that. People are asking to have the rights to be referred to whatever they want to be referred to as, they aren't supporting taking away the tags for other people they aren't trying to say it's okay to call everyone that just that they want to to be called that themselves.

Exactly. Identity tags shouldn't get preferential treatment over others identity tags.

pichi said:
Exactly. Identity tags shouldn't get preferential treatment over others identity tags.

This entire discussion is just a train wreck at this point. Nobody wants to listen to anybody, nobody wants to see anyone else's points, and it all just seems to be laden with spite, vitriol, and anger from everyone. I don't think anything productive is going to come out of this, at least not anything that hasn't already been said because it is just going in circles.

So, not to derail the current conversation, but is there a list of which tags are currently in use?

strikerman said:
So, not to derail the current conversation, but is there a list of which tags are currently in use?

These are all the lore tags so far. Currently the only transgender related tags I see are
trans_woman_(lore)
trans_man_(lore)
trans_(lore)
There's also nonbinary_(lore) from this bulk update request, which seems to be misplaced in the general category rather than lore.