I am writing this following discussion in topic #28143.

The wiki pages for loli and shota include the following phrase:

Note: This should only be tagged for explicit and sexually suggestive content.

I believe that the wiki is wrong. In common Japanese usage, loli and shota can be used for rating:safe content, right? For me, the only implication carried by loli and shota is, in parallel to kemono/anime/manga, the iconic art style.

First time for the inclusion of that phrase in the loli wiki:

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions?search%5Bwiki_page_id%5D=258

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/12316

2014-11-07 04:42 by Genjar

First time for the inclusion of that phrase in the shota wiki:

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions?search%5Bwiki_page_id%5D=257

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/41689

2017-06-12 23:33 by Ratte

No reason was given in both cases. I believe that the issue should be reopened for discussion.

gattonero2001 said:
I believe that the wiki is wrong. In common Japanese usage, loli and shota can be used for rating:safe content, right? For me, the only implication carried by loli and shota is, in parallel to kemono/anime/manga, the iconic art style.

Loli has uses outside of Japan (the 1955 novel Lolita, and apparently a 1916 German short story sharing the same name, both dealing with an obsession over a young girl). The Japanese portmanteau/contraction lolicon is from the borrowed words lolita+complex which shares the loli base, so it has distinct references to non-safe content outside of Japanese content.

To @gattonero2001's question : In common Japanese usage, loli and shota can be used for rating:safe content, right?
⇒ I would say YES.

But, I'd try to think about what those tags are for.
　- Wiki Help:Global Blacklist ⇒ https://e621.net/help/global_blacklist
　- Wiki e621:blacklisting suggestions ⇒ https://e621.net/wiki_pages/1272
...These give me feel for what the reason is.
So, I can't say yes or no to tagging these for rating:s. - I want opinions from other users.

～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～～

Regardless of the results of this topic, I feel the four Implications I have presented should be available.

kurogi_foxsiv said:
Regardless of the results of this topic, I feel the four Implications I have presented should be available.

The link says "not found"...

I have altered the "young characters BUR". If you agree with the changes, please change your vote.

gattonero2001 said:
The link says "not found"...
I have altered the "young characters BUR". If you agree with the changes, please change your vote.

ugh...fixed the link and changed the vote.

kurogi_foxsiv said:
ugh...fixed the link and changed the vote.

Is there any aspect of the "Little Tail Bronx BUR" that you still disagree with as well?

gattonero2001 said:
Is there any aspect of the "Little Tail Bronx BUR" that you still disagree with as well?

I'm not disagreeing with that, just haven't collected enough information yet.

However, we also have to keep in mind our non-Japanese audience as well. Out here, both terms have a sexual aspect to them. To the Westerner, it's arguably not possible to have a rating:safe loli or shota picture. Any rating:safe picture that clearly deserves either tag, at least to a Western audience, arguably should be tagged as rating:questionable at the nicest. Considering the occasional tirades on this forum about cub as well as the general sensitivity Western society has to the subject, I think it's best to leave things as they are here.

According to my records, no.

clawstripe said:
However, we also have to keep in mind our non-Japanese audience as well....

Oh, I figured.　Well, this is probably the truth. ( Language and Culture differences )
In Japan, those are used to mean "Young and cute/pretty" _{(i.e. other words for 幼女)}.　But when they are used as English (or other languages) , the meaning would/could be changed. ← Though the way it's used in Japanese is probably strange to begin with.

So even though it is explained as slang from Japanese, the way it is used in reality is different. 　...I see, anyway it's not easy to deal with loli/shota and cub in every country, I wonder.

Flat no. Frankly they shouldnt even be tags when the Cub umbrella works.
Theyre used exclusively as fetish tags in english speaking areas. Theres a reason why this discussion has been closed multiple times now.

demesejha said:
Flat no. Frankly they shouldnt even be tags when the Cub umbrella works.
Theyre used exclusively as fetish tags in english speaking areas. Theres a reason why this discussion has been closed multiple times now.

The "cub umbrella" does not work for human and humanoid characters.

I am not aware of their use as "fetish tags" because I do not live in an English-speaking area. e621 is an international site that uses the English language officially for convenience and many users, such as myself, do not speak it as a first language.

Similarly, I was not aware that this discussion had been closed before. Could you provide links, please?

demesejha said:
Flat no. Frankly they shouldnt even be tags when the Cub umbrella works.
Theyre used exclusively as fetish tags in english speaking areas. Theres a reason why this discussion has been closed multiple times now.

No lol, they Should be tags, male + young gives you vastly different results than shota.