I don't personally condone this content but the site does and I have no desire to argue that. But one thing this site does have going for it is you can filter out content you don't support by tag. The problem is, I do prefer actually grown women with a smaller bust. That shouldn't be hard to search and filter, but people haven't been tagging art of underage characters properly. And some of its not even visibly questionable, it's just straight up cub.

I don't have time to run a tagging project, but it would be great if someone got together a group to go through and tag already uploaded content. And people REALLY need to start tagging extreme content when they upload it, possibly facing consequences for not doing so.

I don't have trauma related to this content thankfully, but not everyone is so lucky. So not subjecting people with trauma to triggering content is kinda important.

As an addendum, I think Zaush's work should be tagged strictly as seen and no based on any lore. Particularly because of him being caught using actual kids as reference for characters he tried to pass of as size difference to avoid bans on other sites. It's obvious that he's abusing tags/lore in bad faith.

Again, I'm not here to argue for bans, just tag shit.

oxiicy said:
I don't personally condone this content but the site does and I have no desire to argue that. But one thing this site does have going for it is you can filter out content you don't support by tag. The problem is, I do prefer actually grown women with a smaller bust. That shouldn't be hard to search and filter, but people haven't been tagging art of underage characters properly. And some of its not even visibly questionable, it's just straight up cub.

I don't have time to run a tagging project, but it would be great if someone got together a group to go through and tag already uploaded content. And people REALLY need to start tagging extreme content when they upload it, possibly facing consequences for not doing so.

I don't have trauma related to this content thankfully, but not everyone is so lucky. So not subjecting people with trauma to triggering content is kinda important.

As an addendum, I think Zaush's work should be tagged strictly as seen and no based on any lore. Particularly because of him being caught using actual kids as reference for characters he tried to pass of as size difference to avoid bans on other sites. It's obvious that he's abusing tags/lore in bad faith.

Again, I'm not here to argue for bans, just tag shit.

This, especially with Zaush. No, that's not what "college age" people look like. Go to a college campus sometime; they look like full adults, because they are full adults.

I would recommend to just blacklist the artist entirely if their content constantly slips past your current blacklist.

thegreatwolfgang said:
I would recommend to just blacklist the artist entirely if their content constantly slips past your current blacklist.

It's not just any one artist though is the problem with improper tagging. That specific case is just one that should definitely be addressed.

oxiicy said:
It's not just any one artist though is the problem with improper tagging. That specific case is just one that should definitely be addressed.

The problem with Zauch is there is those in the fanbase of his content who will adamantly remove valid tags from posts based off of lore.

versperus said:
The problem with Zauch is there is those in the fanbase of his content who will adamantly remove valid tags from posts based off of lore.

My question to those people is, why NOT tag it young? Aside from forgetting, or ignorance, what do you lose from not tagging it? People have said to err in the side of caution for these tags in particular, and i follow that.

Would like to state that young is not specific enough. There are a lot of images that are only tagged with that and nothing more specific, such as cub, young, or teenager. I can tolerate it enough to leave young unblacklisted and tag it more specifically as I come across it, but I'm in no mood to go hunting for it for a project.

And it doesn't matter if the artist claims the character is an adult, e621 is a "Tag What You See" site, not what the artist says site. Drawing your characters "on model" for a show that had child-like proportions makes the artwork itself considered child.

versperus said:
The problem with Zauch is there is those in the fanbase of his content who will adamantly remove valid tags from posts based off of lore.

That's what tag locks are for.

lonelylupine said:
That's what tag locks are for.

And reports, if it happens frequently.

oxiicy said:
Particularly because of [zaush] being caught using actual kids as reference for characters he tried to pass of as size difference to avoid bans on other sites.

can you clarify that bit please?

like do you mean he brought up child proportions to prove that his characters aren't underage, or are you saying that the dude legit used/uses pics of children as model reference for his art? because if the latter than fuck that guy frfr

dripen_arn said:

can you clarify that bit please?

like do you mean he brought up child proportions to prove that his characters aren't underage, or are you saying that the dude legit used/uses pics of children as model reference for his art? because if the latter than fuck that guy frfr

Here's a summary.

ratte said:
Here's a summary.

scheiße. that is... pretty bad.

ratte said:
Here's a summary.

Before anybody starts digging up old drama again, I want to remind that the last thread calling out for a witch-hunt got locked, see topic #20516.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Before anybody starts digging up old drama again, I want to remind that the last thread calling out for a witch-hunt got locked, see topic #20516.

not asking for a witch hunt personally, just more reasons why i should avoid this man and his art

thegreatwolfgang said:
Before anybody starts digging up old drama again, I want to remind that the last thread calling out for a witch-hunt got locked, see topic #20516.

Dude, the whole deal with witch-hunts is that witches don't exist* and they were thinly veiled excuses to persecute women who didn't conform to the norms of their society.

Highlighting how someone is tiptoing to the edge of legality when it comes to child sex abuse, is using weasely language to cover it up, and how others are facilitating the cover-up by just letting him lie about it is not a witch-hunt by any stretch of the imagination. Even as someone who think others are way too uptight about cub art, I'm calling bullshit on "witch-hunt."

*don't hex hit me, Wiccans. You know what I mean.

lonelylupine said:
Dude, the whole deal with witch-hunts is that witches don't exist* and they were thinly veiled excuses to persecute women who didn't conform to the norms of their society.

Highlighting how someone is tiptoing to the edge of legality when it comes to child sex abuse, is using weasely language to cover it up, and how others are facilitating the cover-up by just letting him lie about it is not a witch-hunt by any stretch of the imagination. Even as someone who think others are way too uptight about cub art, I'm calling bullshit on "witch-hunt."

*don't hex hit me, Wiccans. You know what I mean.

No one cares. The site is not usually for drama

so anyways let's get back on track by telling y'all a story about that one time an artist yelled at me for tagging their art as cub!

so a couple days ago i came across this lovely piece of art: post #3388822
and on first impression it kinda gave me cub vibe, and since i got that shit on the blacklist, i decided to play it safe and tagged it as cub.

but then the artist themself sent me this spicy dm with the subject line: "fuck off"

Don't you fucking DARE try to list any of my fucking characters as cub or child, you sick fuck. You better fucking message someone before you try to do shit like that. The dom is 10 FEET TALL, and the femboy was 5.

If you want to be a perverted fuck do it on other shit just stay the fuck away from my shit

for the record: i do totally believe the artist here and i'm not bringing this up to challenge their claim, just thought their response was funny and wanted to share it

lonelylupine said:
Dude, the whole deal with witch-hunts is that witches don't exist* and they were thinly veiled excuses to persecute women who didn't conform to the norms of their society.

Thing is, people engaged in witch hunts rarely recognize they are in one. They're convinced the witches are real and that they're justified in what they do, due to being manipulated and/or lied to to get them riled up into joining the hunting party.

That article in particular is a thinly veiled hit-piece on Zaush, using unsavory tactics like poisoning the well (e.g. going into how they don't like the kind of porn he makes, how it gives them "bad feelings", to make Zaush out to be into "bad" things, before getting into the actual point of the article), being vague as hell to make Zaush look like the instigator in summarizing it while scaring people away from looking at the actual conversation (not once did I see it mentioned Zaush didn't have any of the images, which weren't CSA in any case, he was sent them unsolicited by the prospective client, nor does the article itself mention the images weren't going to be used for character references or be the base model of the art, or that the art was never made in the end anyway), and bringing up unrelated drama Zaush got caught in from 10 years ago, while opinionating that Zaush's responses weren't to their satisfaction so he's probably guilty. Then throwing in anti-cub propaganda, complete with a slippery slope argument ("And it’s not just about whether Zaush’s stuff is harmless or not – what about relaxing standards so much that actual illegal stuff gets mixed in?" because obviously if we want to allow legal stuff, no one's going to care about illegal stuff?). Then ends off the article saying they feel vindicated in having a distaste for Zaush's porn.

That is far from the kind of article I'd trust to give a fair overview of the situation, given the manipulation at play in it. That's what I'd expect from a witch hunt.

dripen_arn said:
so anyways let's get back on track by telling y'all a story about that one time an artist yelled at me for tagging their art as cub!

so a couple days ago i came across this lovely piece of art: post #3388822
and on first impression it kinda gave me cub vibe, and since i got that shit on the blacklist, i decided to play it safe and tagged it as cub.

but then the artist themself sent me this spicy dm with the subject line: "fuck off"
for the record: i do totally believe the artist here and i'm not bringing this up to challenge their claim, just thought their response was funny and wanted to share it

I find it fascinating that they assume tagging it cub was for a fetish head canon. I feel like people tag things cub more for the safety reason. I dunno, atleast I don't tag what i see as cub for fetish head canons or whatever.

dripen_arn said:
but then the artist themself sent me this spicy dm with the subject line: "fuck off"

I honestly might have sent a report if I got dmail like that, there's no reason to totally go off on a person for changing some tags once, holy shit.

dripen_arn said:
so anyways let's get back on track by telling y'all a story about that one time an artist yelled at me for tagging their art as cub!

so a couple days ago i came across this lovely piece of art: post #3388822
and on first impression it kinda gave me cub vibe, and since i got that shit on the blacklist, i decided to play it safe and tagged it as cub.

but then the artist themself sent me this spicy dm with the subject line: "fuck off"
for the record: i do totally believe the artist here and i'm not bringing this up to challenge their claim, just thought their response was funny and wanted to share it

They seem to have the wrong idea of e621. We tag what it looks like, and the smaller character's head is too big compared to the body to be tagged as an adult to me.
Cub itself is only for "Anthro or ferals that are underaged" according to the wiki, which may also lead to some confusion--it sounds like it refers to a baby, which the "femboy's" limbs are too long to be considered. He looks like an older child, not a toddler or younger.

watsit said:
Thing is, people engaged in witch hunts rarely recognize they are in one. They're convinced the witches are real and that they're justified in what they do, due to being manipulated and/or lied to to get them riled up into joining the hunting party.

That article in particular is a thinly veiled hit-piece on Zaush, using unsavory tactics like poisoning the well (e.g. going into how they don't like the kind of porn he makes, how it gives them "bad feelings", to make Zaush out to be into "bad" things, before getting into the actual point of the article), being vague as hell to make Zaush look like the instigator in summarizing it while scaring people away from looking at the actual conversation (not once did I see it mentioned Zaush didn't have any of the images, which weren't CSA in any case, he was sent them unsolicited by the prospective client, nor does the article itself mention the images weren't going to be used for character references or be the base model of the art, or that the art was never made in the end anyway), and bringing up unrelated drama Zaush got caught in from 10 years ago, while opinionating that Zaush's responses weren't to their satisfaction so he's probably guilty. Then throwing in anti-cub propaganda, complete with a slippery slope argument ("And it’s not just about whether Zaush’s stuff is harmless or not – what about relaxing standards so much that actual illegal stuff gets mixed in?" because obviously if we want to allow legal stuff, no one's going to care about illegal stuff?). Then ends off the article saying they feel vindicated in having a distaste for Zaush's porn.

That is far from the kind of article I'd trust to give a fair overview of the situation, given the manipulation at play in it. That's what I'd expect from a witch hunt.

I don't care much for DPP for those same reasons, I just wanted an all-in-one-place summary of what happened since a lot of other sources are pretty scattered and I honestly just forgot about the previous e6 thread.

_{Though, hey, it's not like this is the worst thing Zaush has done. :^)}

ratte said:
_{Though, hey, it's not like this is the worst thing Zaush has done. :^)}

I am scared to ask. But what else happened?

dubsthefox said:
I am scared to ask. But what else happened?

Refused to draw someone's fetish. j/k

dubsthefox said:
I am scared to ask. But what else happened?

There are allegations that he pressured a prominent female artist (Sciggles, IIRC) into having sex with him but those fizzled out too.

watsit said:
That article in particular is a thinly veiled hit-piece on Zaush,

>posts actual screenshots of what he did.
>"thinly veiled hit-piece"

You hear that sound? That's the sound of you never been taken seriously again.

lonelylupine said:
>posts actual screenshots of what he did.
>"thinly veiled hit-piece"

You hear that sound? That's the sound of you never been taken seriously again.

"What he did", i.e. discuss with a potential client about a potential commission (that never came to fruition), with the client sending SFW images of young people that Zaush himself, looking back at it afterward, recognized was unnecessary and too far. The article, going on to talk about how Zaush is using photos of real kids for his art, and using blatant emotional manipulation tactics to portray him as a monster in hiding, yes I would call a hit-piece, if not outright slander.

I'm hardly saying Zaush is completely innocent (he should've realized it was too far when it happened, not on retrospection), but that article went well beyond the things Zaush actually did while trying to suggest far worse due to the writer's personal dislike of Zaush's content.

oxiicy said:
And people REALLY need to start tagging extreme content when they upload it, possibly facing consequences for not doing so.

Again, I'm not here to argue for bans, just tag shit.

I don't know if there's a set minimum, but you can report uploaders if they consistently fail or refuse to tag contentious content on upload, like scat, vore, and cub/young (if it's not visually questionable).

This thread isn't about Zaush's drama, deserved as it was. The problem up for discussion is his and others' abuse of tagging systems in a way that makes them less useful for other site users.

Like I said, if I had time to report every instance I wouldn't have made this thread. This needs to be a project for someone with more free time than me.

oxiicy said:
This thread isn't about Zaush's drama, deserved as it was. The problem up for discussion is his and others' abuse of tagging systems in a way that makes them less useful for other site users.

Like I said, if I had time to report every instance I wouldn't have made this thread. This needs to be a project for someone with more free time than me.

i can probably do that, can you give me a tag string to work with?

(also sorry for bringing up the zaush thing, probably should dm people off-topic questions like that next time to avoid derailing the topic)

dubsthefox said:
I am scared to ask. But what else happened?

Sorry. I got a dm explaining it. I just didn't mention it here.

dripen_arn said:
Like I said, if I had time to report every instance I wouldn't have made this thread. This needs to be a project for someone with more free time than me.

I am all in for tagging young looking characters as young but... if it is about a big artist I think this can be stressful, because there are so many people who will just undo the changes. And I am not convinced that we should spam the ticket queue with tag lock requests.

just ban loli and cub content all together,this site is attracting more and more pedos,and will be later associated as a pedo website.

eydankbirb said:
just ban loli and cub content all together,this site is attracting more and more pedos,and will be later associated as a pedo website.

I don't really get how this can come from the kind of people who have stuff tagged with things like bestiality in their favs. like, I assume that you wouldn't be okay with bestiality in real life, when it's art it's diffrent, right? but for some reason you can't afford the same level of separation from reality if it's cub characters? I don't get it. is it just "it's okay because I find it hot", and everything else gets scrutiny?

eydankbirb said:
just ban loli and cub content all together,this site is attracting more and more pedos,and will be later associated as a pedo website.

Nice slippery slope but it isn't, just use your blacklist like a normal person. Which, ironically, is something you need to work on.

I think we should just ignore stuff like this.

eydankbirb said:
just ban loli and cub content all together,this site is attracting more and more pedos,and will be later associated as a pedo website.

Ah, Zaush drama.
The article was just slandering cub more than actually reporting what Zaush did + full of fallacies. fallacies everywhere.
Either way, as someone with cub on their favorite list, properly tagging cub would be a good idea for those uncomfortable with it.

Also, if beastiality is part of your favorites list, you become a hypocrite if you ask for removing cub because "it attracts pedos". What, beastiality isn't something zoophiles jack off to? Would it not attract them, this content tagged with "beastiality" depicting feral art?

My two cents on this are: tag shit properly. Report artists who keep breaking the rules. Tag lock what should be tag locked.

And seriously, man, whoever commented about removing loli should just shut the hell up. They're no saints, both them and their favorites list.

darryus said:
I don't really get how this can come from the kind of people who have stuff tagged with things like bestiality in their favs. like, I assume that you wouldn't be okay with bestiality in real life, when it's art it's diffrent, right?

I think that's jumping to conclusions. Unless the discussion is referencing both simultaneously, you're going to find people who are fine with one of them joining in the dogpile on the other, regardless of many others being against both.

gayprotogen said:
Also, if beastiality is part of your favorites list, you become a hypocrite if you ask for removing cub because "it attracts pedos". What, beastiality isn't something zoophiles jack off to? Would it not attract them, this content tagged with "beastiality" depicting feral art?

Similarly this is only hypocrisy if they consider these to be equivalent.

magnuseffect said:
I think that's jumping to conclusions. Unless the discussion is referencing both simultaneously, you're going to find people who are fine with one of them joining in the dogpile on the other, regardless of many others being against both.

Similarly this is only hypocrisy if they consider these to be equivalent.

If the level morality of one's fetish suddenly is determined by Their own opinions on it, that sounds like the easiest out for them. I feel like there's some objectivity to be found here, i dunno.

dubsthefox said:
I think we should just ignore stuff like this.

^^

Seriously, at least one troll like this shows up in every single goddamned thread on this topic, usually inevitably leading to a lock. Are we incapable of not rising to the bait at least once?

benjiboyo said:
I feel like there's some objectivity to be found here, i dunno.

Very few people are willing to dive into this so far as to remove all opinion bias, so that's how I'm treating people's statements.
The point was that moral views are largely opinion driven, and the ideological clash here is people who ^{whether in support of or opposition to} view young porn art as equivalent to feral porn art expecting someone in opposition of young porn art to be against feral porn art on that basis alone.

I mean I could go into how our sOCIETY effectively treats children as somewhat-more-socially-complex animals-who-grow-out-of-it but I don't think that's a good use of anyone's time here.

I, for one, am curious, MagnusEffect.

edit:forgor how to spell name x3

magnuseffect said:
I mean I could go into how our sOCIETY effectively treats children as somewhat-more-socially-complex animals-who-grow-out-of-it but I don't think that's a good use of anyone's time here.

it often feels more like the inverse, honestly.

magnuseffect said:

The point was that moral views are largely opinion driven, and the ideological clash here is people who ^{whether in support of or opposition to} view young porn art as equivalent to feral porn art expecting someone in opposition of young porn art to be against feral porn art on that basis alone.

Yeah, i guess morality is infact a social construct and by some logic is completely subjective. But we also live in a society, (don't fucking say it) and society has made SOME topics about morality objective, i;e murder is universally bad.

mods pls just lock this topic already

its already reported. It can't take too long now.

In before the huge wall-o-text war over separating reality from fantasy.

As someone regularly looking for this kind of content, absolutely agreed.

Cub stuff should be easy to find and easy to avoid, but it's the standard problem of people failing to tag their uploads well, and good luck finding a solution for that.

INB4 someone else begs to get this content off this website because they don't like it.

gayprotogen said:
INB4 someone else begs to get this content off this website because they don't like it.

LOL yeah, then a bunch of headaches for mods as flamewar develops over opposite side saying to get bent like a clothes hanger. Or it gets shut down for trolling, preemptively, to prevent it.

Edit: Mentioning cub artists... Oh no! https://e621.net/forum_topics/34161

Alot of posts tagged with "changed (video_game)" are also cub but not marked as such.

KREZZ WAS A CUB ARTIST?????

eydankbirb said:
just ban loli and cub content all together,this site is attracting more and more pedos,and will be later associated as a pedo website.

this isnt a pedo site

after reading this thread again, I can confirm: if people both tagged/used blacklists correctly, life would be so much easier.