The bulk update request #3309 is pending approval.

create alias josou_seme (1332) -> male_penetrating (482680)

Reason: Yet another obscure japanese term made into a tag. It's a romanization of 女装攻め, which means a cross-dressing (gay) male top, however according to the wiki:

A josou seme is a girly male who crossdresses and takes the dominant role in a homosexual sexual act. This is probably a word because, since usually the bottom male takes the female role.

However sometimes this term can be applied to any situation where a girly male is penetrating someone (anal or vaginal), regardless of their gender. So a girly male who is penetrating a female character can fit in this category.

Meaning it's effectively a girly_male_penetrating tag, which is completely non-obvious without looking it up. The wiki also sounds like it isn't completely sure itself. And since girly is a supplemental tag to male, rather than its own category of male, we shouldn't have a girly male variation of a male tag. Plus, some uses don't have a girly male topping either.

This is something that I really like and I didn't even know this had a name, and it has 703 posts already. Couldn't this just be aliased to slmething like girly_male_penetrating since it's *already* in use?

also the "some uses" posts are simply not girly, although the male character is usually tagged as such in other posts. The confusion probably stems from that, rather than misunderstanding the tag.

magikarp said:
This is something that I really like and I didn't even know this had a name, and it has 703 posts already. Couldn't this just be aliased to slmething like girly_male_penetrating since it's *already* in use?

also the "some uses" posts are simply not girly, although the male character is usually tagged as such in other posts. The confusion probably stems from that, rather than misunderstanding the tag.

I'd prefer to keep something equivalent to josou_seme, but we need to figure out what to do with girly itself. My preferred solution is to alias girly to effeminate, and josou_seme to effeminate_penetrating. Granted, that last one is somewhat awkward, but no more so than ambiguous_penetrating, which already exists.

vulpes_artifex said:
I'd prefer to keep something equivalent to josou_seme, but we need to figure out what to do with girly itself. My preferred solution is to alias girly to effeminate, and josou_seme to effeminate_penetrating. Granted, that last one is somewhat awkward, but no more so than ambiguous_penetrating, which already exists.

I see the improvement, since effeminate is specific to a male (according to the dictionary, although I assumed it was gender neutral before looking it up).

Technically with the e621 definition it would only have to be girly_penetrating since girly only applies to male (and andromorph/maleherm) but not female (also there's no tags for specific genders being girly so no extra tags would be needed if this tag was kept.

magikarp said:
This is something that I really like and I didn't even know this had a name, and it has 703 posts already. Couldn't this just be aliased to slmething like girly_male_penetrating since it's *already* in use?

We don't keep supplemental tag combinations. Girly characters are male, and adding a girly version next to every male tag would be unwieldy (one of the reasons why the site's been against adding any more gender/sex tags, which this would effectively do). girly_penetrating is already aliased away, so aliasing it to something like girly_male_penetrating is equally aliasing it away.

magikarp said:
also the "some uses" posts are simply not girly, although the male character is usually tagged as such in other posts. The confusion probably stems from that, rather than misunderstanding the tag.

The wiki itself for the tag says:

A josou seme is a girly male who crossdresses and takes the dominant role in a homosexual sexual act.

So it wouldn't be strictly like girly_penetrating, it would also include crossdressing males being assertive or leading another male sexually, without any penetration. At first it says it's strictly homosexual with a dominant crossdressing male, then says it can apply to any girly male simply penetrating anyone, straight, gay, or other. The tag itself doesn't know what it wants to be, while the closest thing it can be (girly_penetrating) would make it be aliased away.

watsit said:
The bulk update request #3309 is pending approval.

create alias josou_seme (1332) -> male_penetrating (482680)

Reason: Yet another obscure japanese term made into a tag. It's a romanization of 女装攻め, which means a cross-dressing (gay) male top, however according to the wiki:
Meaning it's effectively a girly_male_penetrating tag, which is completely non-obvious without looking it up. The wiki also sounds like it isn't completely sure itself. And since girly is a supplemental tag to male, rather than its own category of male, we shouldn't have a girly male variation of a male tag. Plus, some uses don't have a girly male topping either.

The tag has issues on multiple levels, the name is too esoteric, the term isn't even used properly — josou seme essentially means a generally dominant or "top" crossdressing femboy/twink, at least, based on external definitions — and the definition in the wiki is entirely redundant. The posts under the tag don't even follow the definition given, a lot of them don't feature a girly character penetrating, many posts show a dominant girly male or a girly male in a heterosexual situation.

The bulk update request #5308 is pending approval.

remove alias girly_penetrating (0) -> penetration (780250)

Reason: Then
alias girly_penetrating -> male_penetrating

This discussion brought to my attention how the girly_penetrating tag got aliased away to something more general than necessary, and maybe that should be remedied.

I feel it makes more sense for it to be aliased this way than how it got aliased originally, and is closer to what the tagger intends, and girly already implies male.

The only problem I see is if it gets tagged on gynomorph by people mistaking what girly means.

snpthecat said:
The only problem I see is if it gets tagged on gynomorph by people mistaking what girly means.

That's probably why it was done that way. While girly is supposed to only be for male characters, a tagger could reasonably think it would apply to any feminine-with-penis character (or an andromorph with a strap-on) if they aren't aware of the wiki. Better to alias to something that has the lowest risk of mistags that's still accurate.

watsit said:
While girly is supposed to only be for male characters, a tagger could reasonably think it would apply to any feminine-with-penis character (or an andromorph with a strap-on) if they aren't aware of the wiki...

According to the wiki, it applies to all male-presenting genders:

The tag is only to be used on gender norm breaking male bodied (male, maleherm, and andromorph) characters...

And this...

snpthecat said:
The bulk update request #5308 is pending approval.

remove alias girly_penetrating (0) -> penetration (780250)
Reason: Then
alias girly_penetrating -> male_penetrating

No, girly does not imply male so neither should this.

maplebytes said:
The tag has issues on multiple levels...

I agree, the naming is a very easy fix so ignoring that we're left with the matter of inconsistent usage...

Tagging inconsistency could be caused by artist/commissioner's intent during self-upload, even if it's not visible in the post. (Examples of posts violating this were shown earlier, and the male character was visibly girly in other posts.) This is the case with many posts and tags though. Gender tags being different from apparent gender is a pretty major one.

Also, the definition on the wiki states:

...this term can be applied to any situation where a girly male is penetrating someone (anal or vaginal), regardless of their gender.

Thus removing the requirement of the submissive's gender also being male (or male-presenting). The wiki is being followed regarding this aspect, so renaming it would, again, clarify the tag's usage.

E621 has many instances where its tag definitions differ from the presumed definition (ie. girly only being valid for male-presenting characters), and if we changed the name of this tag then we would be free to adapt the definition to be more inclusive of the wide variety of genders thay are recognized and tagged here. Ie. futanari was aliased to intersex because of the loose definition used on other boorus causing issues with crossposting. The same could be done here by renaming josou_seme to girly_dom or girly_penetrating, and this would also make the intention of this tag more clear regarding the requirements for the male character being girly.

TL;DR

Josou_seme is ugly in its current implementation, but it's already described in a gender-inclusive way that only places gender requirements on the dom so it's not overly specific.

Changing the name to girly_dom or girly_penetrating would amend the issue of obscurity and also make the tag's meaning obvious at first look.
(I am against girly_penetrating since penetration does not imply dominance, ie. power bottoms).

Ehh, I'm not keen on this. Femboys are a pretty major kink, and I'd prefer not to make it difficult to find particular content of them. There are lots of people who would have a specific interest in seeing femboys in the penetrating role.

magikarp said:
According to the wiki, it applies to all male-presenting genders:

The tag is only to be used on gender norm breaking male bodied (male, maleherm, and andromorph) characters...

That's rather questionable. A girly andromorph would be a (flat-chested) female, since the only difference between a flat-chested female and an andromorph is whether the character has a more feminine/girly appearance. Similar for maleherm vs herm.

watsit said:
That's rather questionable. A girly andromorph would be a (flat-chested) female, since the only difference between a flat-chested female and an andromorph is whether the character has a more feminine/girly appearance. Similar for maleherm vs herm.

The wiki page for girly was locked stating what I quoted and you can re-read that if you like. I'm only saying that any descendant tags should not differ from this.

You're free to make a thread regarding making an edit to that wiki page though, but in it's current state it's not questionable; it's fact as far as tagging is concerned.

That said, do you have a stance regarding my other points?

vulpes_artifex said:
Ehh, I'm not keen on this. Femboys are a pretty major kink, and I'd prefer not to make it difficult to find particular content of them. There are lots of people who would have a specific interest in seeing femboys in the penetrating role.

While josou_seme definitely isn't a good tag name for the concept, I think there's value in a tag existing that describes dominant femboys, it'd be especially helpful for male/male content, but even a lot of femboy/female art features girly characters being submissive, shy, or "sissified". girly_dom might be the most inclusive and most evocative way of describing the concept.

magikarp said:
That said, do you have a stance regarding my other points?

The problem is that it's essentially adding another gender specifier, which would explode the number of tags (every male_penetrating_x, x_penetrating_male, and male_on_x would add a separate girly_penetrating_x, x_penetrating_girly, and girly_on_x, and all associated implications). Aside from that, girly_penetrating is already aliased away to penetration, so trying to change josou_seme to be it would mean aliasing away too, as using a different name to side-step a tag being invalid is something people get in trouble for. If you want it to become girly_penetrating, the first course of action would be to get it re-validated, otherwise the only thing that can be done here is to alias it away for trying to side-step an invalid tag.

magikarp said:
No, girly does not imply male so neither should this.

Huh, thanks for informing me, I could've sworn it did.

snpthecat said:
Huh, thanks for informing me, I could've sworn it did.

It effectively does. Despite the girly wiki saying it can be applied to andromorph and maleherm, the gender tagging guidelines makes it impossible for an andromorph or maleherm to also be girly (the character needs a masculine body type for either of those to apply, which would preclude girly from applying).

watsit said:
It effectively does. Despite the girly wiki saying it can be applied to andromorph and maleherm, the gender tagging guidelines makes it impossible for an andromorph or maleherm to also be girly (the character needs a masculine body type for either of those to apply, which would preclude girly from applying).

Not really, at least in practice. There are definitely cases of masculine bodies where the tag girly is appropriate:

post #3153765 post #2896100 post #1039964

vulpes_artifex said:
Not really, at least in practice. There are definitely cases of masculine bodies where the tag girly is appropriate:

post #3153765 post #2896100 post #1039964

Muscular isn't the same as masculine. I'm not sure I'd call those masculine.

watsit said:
Muscular isn't the same as masculine. I'm not sure I'd call those masculine.

If you don't think the center one is masculine I don't know what to tell you. Give him a different head and he's practically bara.

watsit said:
The problem is that it's essentially adding another gender specifier, which would explode the number of tags (every male_penetrating_x, x_penetrating_male, and male_on_x would add a separate girly_penetrating_x, x_penetrating_girly, and girly_on_x, and all associated implications). Aside from that, girly_penetrating is already aliased away to penetration, so trying to change josou_seme to be it would mean aliasing away too, as using a different name to side-step a tag being invalid is something people get in trouble for. If you want it to become girly_penetrating, the first course of action would be to get it re-validated, otherwise the only thing that can be done here is to alias it away for trying to side-step an invalid tag.

That is a good point, but this doesn't necessitate that there be any additional girly_verb_noun tags created.

ie. submissive_penetrated and dominant_penetrated both exist without the *_penetrating counterparts. Also in existence are feral_penetrating/penetrated, young_penetrating/penetrated, etc.

However, significant counts of these tags do not exist in conjuction with appearance descriptors like muscular, chubby, etc. So I agree that girly_penetrating would be alone in this category.

Still, couldn't a different name be used like dominant_girly or girly_dom?

magikarp said:
Still, couldn't a different name be used like dominant_girly or girly_dom?

"Dominant" is a rather limited subset. Being dominant is more about restraining or taking control of another character, not simply taking the lead in sexual activity or penetrating another character.

watsit said:
Muscular isn't the same as masculine. I'm not sure I'd call those masculine.

It seems to be either very rare or entirely nonexistent (probably due to lack of interest in the concept from artists/commissioners), but you could have an effeminate andromorph or maleherm in theory. There are objective secondary sexual characteristics that one can use to identify a male body beyond genitals and lack of breasts - wide shoulders, narrow hips, the shape of the thighs (thickness concentrated towards the bottom rather than the top), the shape of the hands and feet, the presence of the Adam’s apple, and so on. These traits can all be present on an andromorph or maleherm character who is also effeminate - crossdressing, makeup, etc.

Though, most girly males seem to have entirely female bodies with male genitals + lack of breasts, for whatever reason. I already know I’d be thrown out a window for suggesting that these should be considered intersex, even though I believe that’s exactly what they are, but it should at least be recognized as a problem that it shares a tag with actual male-bodied characters who are simply effeminate despite having male proportions. That’s probably the main reason there’s so much confusion about the use of girly.

scaliespe said:
Though, most girly males seem to have entirely female bodies with male genitals + lack of breasts, for whatever reason.

That's the primary use of the tag:

The following tags are aliased to this tag: femboy, effeminate, dominant_femboy, fem-boy, sissy, feminine_male, femboys, femmy, girly_boi, femenine, sissy_boy, girly_boy, femmeboy, girly_body, femboi, girlyboy, feminine, twink, girlie, fem_boy, girlyboi, femme

Characters that look feminine but are definitely male. Putting masculine crossdressing males with feminine males under one tag seems like it's mixing separate concepts.

watsit said:
it's effectively a girly_male_penetrating tag, which is completely non-obvious without looking it up.

True it has a a focus on penetration but it's still a genre of porn that benefits from having it's own tag. finding images where the girly character isn't the sub is hard to find especially with m/m pairings. So I rather this tag not get entirely wiped. Changing the tag to girly_penetrating or dominant_girly would be a much better option

"Dominant" is a rather limited subset. Being dominant is more about restraining or taking control of another character, not simply taking the lead in sexual activity or penetrating another character.

Yeah but since most girly images have them be the sub/bottom then images them taking the lead or penetrating usually defaults them being dominant as well. If changed to dominant_girly there would need to be a wiki change and some cleanup.

Alright, I'm here to say that this is a really bad idea because it is functionally impossible to search for dominant girly characters. There is a reason this has been brought up again and again and again and again and again and again and again (I'm sure you get the point and I don't need to keep going, but it really does keep going.)

I like Josou Seme because it means there's no room for people to start using girly as a pseudo-gender tag to slap everywhere, while still providing the ability to search for this content that many users (myself included) clearly want.

nimphia said:
I like Josou Seme because it means there's no room for people to start using girly as a pseudo-gender tag to slap everywhere, while still providing the ability to search for this content that many users (myself included) clearly want.

The problem with Josou Seme is it's completely non-obvious what it means by reading it. Someone who's looking for that kind of content isn't going to know that tag exists. And since girly_penetrating is aliased away, this tag is effectively trying to skip around a tag that was deemed invalid.

If you want a girly_penetrated tag, I'd suggest making a unalias request with an argument to restore it, then josou_seme can be aliased to that. Otherwise, it should be aliased away like girly_penetrating is, since that's what it means.

watsit said:
The problem with Josou Seme is it's completely non-obvious what it means by reading it. Someone who's looking for that kind of content isn't going to know that tag exists. And since girly_penetrating is aliased away, this tag is effectively trying to skip around a tag that was deemed invalid.

If you want a girly_penetrated tag, I'd suggest making a unalias request with an argument to restore it, then josou_seme can be aliased to that. Otherwise, it should be aliased away like girly_penetrating is, since that's what it means.

I would much prefer to just establish girly_penetrating and dominant_girly instead, don't get me wrong, but the recurring response I've seen is a slippery slope fallacy about how this means girly will have to be treated like a gender tag and get every gendered tag variant (it doesn't).

So I mean I like it for the specific reason of avoiding that slippery slope argument, not that I think it's the ideal tag.

It just really drives me batty that every tag for this concept is aliased away for "not wanting people to turn girly into a gender tag" while we are given no alternative way to search for this sort of content.

The bulk update request #7285 is pending approval.

remove alias girly_penetrating (0) -> penetration (780250)
remove alias dominant_femboy (0) -> femboy (132138)

Reason: As stated above, these tags not existing is asked about on the forums constantly because people want to search for these things and they cannot.

I don't believe for a second that letting these tags exist means we have to let people make girly subtags for everything. But these particular two things are common kinks that cannot be searched for whatsoever, and if you are not giving users an alternative way to search for this content, there is a clear gap in the tagging system.

We could do girly_dom to match muscular_dom to make it clear that the girly here isn't being used as a gender tag but rather as an adjective.

this is a sexual dynamic that we probably should have a tag for but using a pretty uncomon japanese term is probably best avoided. I'm also not a huge fan of including the word "girly" either, both because I don't think we should be expanding the <adjective>_<noun> tag type to include a kinda specific build tag as the noun, but also because I'm not a huge fan using gendered language/definitions for tags that could potentially have a more general more useful definition.

sipothac said:
this is a sexual dynamic that we probably should have a tag for but using a pretty uncomon japanese term is probably best avoided. I'm also not a huge fan of including the word "girly" either, both because I don't think we should be expanding the <adjective>_<noun> tag type to include a kinda specific build tag as the noun, but also because I'm not a huge fan using gendered language/definitions for tags that could potentially have a more general more useful definition.

There's another thread that wants to replace girly with "femboy", but that doesn't do much in regards to the gendered language part. I feel like the gendered language is an inherent aspect of the sexual dynamic, though.

Either way, all my BUR does is suggest we remove the aliases so we can create proper tags for this kink, whatever those tags may be.

nimphia said:
There's another thread that wants to replace girly with "femboy", but that doesn't do much in regards to the gendered language part. I feel like the gendered language is an inherent aspect of the sexual dynamic, though.

Either way, all my BUR does is suggest we remove the aliases so we can create proper tags for this kink, whatever those tags may be.

ehhh... I dunno to me it feels kind of arbitrary, in the same way that having pegging restricted to m/f exclusively does.

although, this tag doesn't actually seem to be nearly _as_ restrictive as that... I'm still not sure where exactly I stand on this.

also, I will say I'm not the biggest fan of the term "femboy" either. using diminutive terms like "boy" have kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

sipothac said:
ehhh... I dunno to me it feels kind of arbitrary, in the same way that having pegging restricted to m/f exclusively does.

although, this tag doesn't actually seem to be nearly _as_ restrictive as that... I'm still not sure where exactly I stand on this.

also, I will say I'm not the biggest fan of the term "femboy" either. using diminutive terms like "boy" have kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

I mean, it's restrictive because we're talking about a tag for dominant/top feminine male-bodied (including maleherm and andromorph, as the wiki for girly already says) characters. If it was less restrictive that would defeat the purpose.

Like, it's not arbitrary at all... It's the point of the tag?

nimphia said:
I mean, it's restrictive because we're talking about a tag for dominant/top feminine male-bodied (including maleherm and andromorph, as the wiki for girly already says) characters. If it was less restrictive that would defeat the purpose.

FWIW, there is also a distinction between "top" (penetrating) and "dominant" (domination, control). Something a lot of people mistag the latter meaning the former.

watsit said:
FWIW, there is also a distinction between "top" (penetrating) and "dominant" (domination, control). Something a lot of people mistag the latter meaning the former.

I know, I used the slash because I'm referring to both (in that I'm proposing a dominant and penetrating tag for femboy characters, because they are two common and related kinks)

Okay, here's what I think we should do.

I think we should, instead of the original alias request, do josou_seme -> girly as the tag is used both for girly tops and girly doms.

I have put all of the posts from the tag in set #57446. Then, if we want to go ahead and make girly_penetrating and dominant_girly (or whatever we want to call them) tags (for the record I still absolutely think we should) we can manually tag the set whichever one is applicable.

Also, I'll add posts I find that I think fit to the set for now instead of adding more posts to the ambiguous tag.

nimphia said:
I think we should, instead of the original alias request, do josou_seme -> girly as the tag is used both for girly tops and girly doms.

It's also used in cases where the penetrating character isn't girly (see "josou_seme -girly" for some more; some are just missing the girly tag, but others aren't girly and shouldn't be tagged such).

watsit said:
It's also used in cases where the penetrating character isn't girly (see "josou_seme -girly" for some more; some are just missing the girly tag, but others aren't girly and shouldn't be tagged such).

In that case we can clean those up. Most of the results of that search look like they should have the girly tag to me, though. I'll remove the tag from the ones I don't think should.

Bumping this thread as it's relevant again.

i've wanted to comment to it while on low energy, but i reminded by other similar burs so tossing 2 cents on this

whether it's obscure or not doesn't negate that it needs to alias to diverse tag, anything initially will start obscure until reaches it's norm to groups. i'd point that girly is very popular tag that naturally creates for different tag types by multitude people.

and whether it contributes on efficiency/qol, when i search "dominant_male" and "girly" for intention for girly male dominating another, it will be extremely divisive, either the girly is dominant/top or submissive/bottom in the context of posts. tags suppose to ease the searcher as well as blacklisters. if i was the person liking girldom, i'd be on the context of saying "i want girly dominant that asshole, not himself damnit!" or vice versa.

i was also originally kind of divisive on girly/girly, but i let to follow other peoples' opinions to make bur and agreement to alias into singular girly. now that i search for male/male and girly after effect, it will be conventional/manly male with girly character. so what now, we make "girly_only" tag?

I'll also point out that it seems what most people want isn't strictly dominant_girly or girly_dominant either way. Dominant/submissive is not about penetrative sex roles, but physical control of another that may or may not be sexual. Tagging dominant_x or x_dominant because x is just sexually penetrating another character without physically dominating them is a mistag, and it should be x_penetrating instead.

watsit said:
I'll also point out that it seems what most people want isn't strictly dominant_girly or girly_dominant either way. Dominant/submissive is not about penetrative sex roles, but physical control of another that may or may not be sexual. Tagging dominant_x or x_dominant because x is just sexually penetrating another character without physically dominating them is a mistag, and it should be x_penetrating instead.

I'm interested in both, and I'm (personally) proposing both (as separate tags, to be clear). I don't think it would attract any more mistags than dominant_x already do.

One of the big issues with josou_seme is that it currently includes both, which is why I suggested aliasing it to girly and then establishing separate tags and applying them where they fit.

(Also I wouldn't say dominance is inherently physical, psychological dominance exists as well, but that's unrelated and doesn't mean penetration = dominance, obviously.)

So girly is now femboy, which doesn't really affect the topic of "should we have a tag for effeminate men domming and/or topping" but it does affect "what should we call these hypothetical tags".

dominant_femboy and femboy_penetrating are the obvious ones, but they fall right into the trap of making femboy seem like another gender tag that can be combined with any modifier, which was one of the main issues some people had with these tags (not wanting people to make a bunch of femboy tags)

femboy_dom could work in line with muscular_dom for the same reasons I mentioned above for girly_dom, but that doesn't cover just plain penetration

nimphia said:
So girly is now femboy, which doesn't really affect the topic of "should we have a tag for effeminate men domming and/or topping" but it does affect "what should we call these hypothetical tags".

dominant_femboy and femboy_penetrating are the obvious ones, but they fall right into the trap of making femboy seem like another gender tag that can be combined with any modifier, which was one of the main issues some people had with these tags (not wanting people to make a bunch of femboy tags)

femboy_dom could work in line with muscular_dom for the same reasons I mentioned above for girly_dom, but that doesn't cover just plain penetration

I would be fine with just calling them dominant_femboy and femboy_penetrating (and honestly, restoring girly/girly and aliasing it to femboy on femboy or something like that - I think this is also a difficult thing to search for without a tag like this). Yes, with tags like this in place, people will try to use it like a gender tag and create other combinations. My solution to that would simply be to alias a bunch of those away preemptively, and clean up any more that appear if they do. So, alias girly_on_female, femboy_on_female, girly_on_herm femboy_penetrated etc. away to something (probably femboy) since those can all easily be found via femboy male/female or similar.

scaliespe said:
I would be fine with just calling them dominant_femboy and femboy_penetrating (and honestly, restoring girly/girly and aliasing it to femboy on femboy or something like that - I think this is also a difficult thing to search for without a tag like this). Yes, with tags like this in place, people will try to use it like a gender tag and create other combinations. My solution to that would simply be to alias a bunch of those away preemptively, and clean up any more that appear if they do. So, alias girly_on_female, femboy_on_female, girly_on_herm femboy_penetrated etc. away to something (probably femboy) since those can all easily be found via femboy male/female or similar.

Not a bad idea in all honesty, I didn't even consider pre-emptively aliasing the potential copycat tags that can be searched for in other ways. I think if we did that, we shouldn't have too much issue with these tags, and I agree with you on girly/girly / femboy_on_femboy. That's another thing I'd love to be able to search for that I can't at the moment.

(That one could probably also be populated a decent amount using the josou seme set, since a lot of that content is femboy on femboy, lol)