I can't help but notice that "cub" tag was removed completely and now just redirects to "young". This decision is abysmal and I can't phantom why anyone would think it was a good idea. Let me explain why. "young" tag was a thing here for a long time and served as an umbrella term uniting several distinct tags. Such as "cub" "teen", "loli" and "shota". I highly doubt a user that search cubs there wants to see human lolis/shotas or teens but from now on they have to. Since there is no way to search for cubs and cubs only safe for blacklisting/excluding all tags related to humans and teens. This makes searching for specific pic or fetish a pain in the ass and severely limits the site's overall usability.

TDLR Please bring Cub tag back, I'm begging you!.

cub was never a distinct age group, it was never meant to be a distinct age group. it was a bizarre hybrid tag of young + feral OR anthro OR taur -humanoid_taur, so the tag was split into actual coherent, young_<form> tag family.

it was a tag with an invalid use case and it's never coming back.

sipothac said:
cub was never a distinct age group, it was never meant to be a distinct age group. it was a bizarre hybrid tag of young + feral OR anthro OR taur -humanoid_taur, so the tag was split into actual coherent, young_<form> tag family.

it was a tag with an invalid use case and it's never coming back.

Cub is a term closely tied with furry fandom. Every furry know exactly what cubs are. It's used on prety much every furry site that has tagging system. Removing or replacing it makes as much sense as say removing "antho" tag and replacing it with something like "animal_features" tag.

zombieastronaut said:
Cub is a term closely tied with furry fandom. Every furry know exactly what cubs are. It's used on prety much every furry site that has tagging system. Removing or replacing it makes as much sense as say removing "antho" tag and replacing it with something like "animal_features" tag.

A term being widely used doesn't make it valid. It was defined as a young character that's anthro, feral, and maybe taur. That's it. That's all it was. That definition, and the fact that is was widely misused is why it was done away with. You can read all about it in topic #41659. It definitely isn't being brought back. We've been wanting to get rid of it for years.

zombieastronaut said:
Cub is a term closely tied with furry fandom. Every furry know exactly what cubs are. It's used on prety much every furry site that has tagging system. Removing or replacing it makes as much sense as say removing "antho" tag and replacing it with something like "animal_features" tag.

it wouldn't matter if the term "cub" had been ordained on high from the furry gods themselves.

keeping the tag as it was was untenable, and it was decided to be done a way with in an overwhelming 39 to 3 against vote. the tag's gone and it's not coming back.

zombieastronaut said:
Cub is a term closely tied with furry fandom.

True. Also, not directly relevant to whether we should use such a term.

Every furry know exactly what cubs are.

Universalized claims like this tend to just be false.

It's used on prety much every furry site that has tagging system.

Do you believe popularity has much relevance to whether a term is technically sound to use for searching or blacklisting?

Removing or replacing it makes as much sense as say removing "antho" tag and replacing it with something like "animal_features" tag.

This is also quite obviously false. The replacements make finer distinctions, they are not a one-to-one substitute; you can make equivalent searches but also more specific searches / blacklist rules that weren't possible with cub. Sipothac already described this.

Do you believe popularity has much relevance to whether a term is technically sound to use for searching or blacklisting?

Yes. And I also believe that Inkbunny has a better tagging system than e621. Mostly because they don't purge popular tags and try to reorganize everything to something only they believe is "technically sound".

…Have you been made aware of young anthro..?

If you search for ~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur you will get the same results.

dubsthefox said:
If you search for ~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur you will get the same results.

You can also work in negatives and/or blacklist what you don’t want; young_human, young_humanoid, and teen.

It would make the search like
young -young_human -young_humanoid -teen

It’s the exact same result as ~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur -teen, but since it will be in your blacklist, you won’t always need to re-imput the search terms and simply search young on it’s own: your blacklist will do the work for you.

zombieastronaut said:
Yes. And I also believe that Inkbunny has a better tagging system than e621. Mostly because they don't purge popular tags and try to reorganize everything to something only they believe is "technically sound".

Image archives with anarchic tag systems are pretty hard to use in my opinion. The purpose of the tags is to let users find what they want, not reflect popular terminology.

zombieastronaut said:
Cub is a term closely tied with furry fandom. Every furry know exactly what cubs are. It's used on prety much every furry site that has tagging system. Removing or replacing it makes as much sense as say removing "antho" tag and replacing it with something like "animal_features" tag.

Nobody knew what it meant and how it was tagged, my personal opinion was that it was for very young characters like toddlers and babies, at most infants and late 12's children. Apparently it was supposed to be exactly like young, but for furry characters if you ask some folks or read the wiki. Some furs were mad the tag was deleted thinking it was the furry equivalent of shota and loli and they specifically blacklisted cub, but not young -rating:s thinking it would exclude all infant furry porn from search. They're not far off with this thinking, most furs used 'cub' as a synonym variant or loli and shota on sites like inkbunny. This problem made the tag the more hurting for artists who drew teenage youngish characters and then they were given the "loli, but furry" label on their art while they're were already walking on a thin line by using sites like patreon or furaffinity. Most of them probably didn't like lolicon or shotacon to boot. For these reasons this tag were prone to drama and tag wars.

Good fucking riddance, that's all you gotta know. I ain't ever gonna miss it!

vulpes_artifex said:
Image archives with anarchic tag systems are pretty hard to use in my opinion. The purpose of the tags is to let users find what they want, not reflect popular terminology.

I have some sympathy for anarchism but I don't think it's even ambiguous: Any ongoing archive, to be generally usable, needs to have moderation that is more or less strict, especially, strict about how things are indexed.

Indexing things in a way that is sustainable is actually quite hard and I appreciate e621's moderators and forum participants general tendency to take terminological questions seriously.

zombieastronaut said:
Yes. And I also believe that Inkbunny has a better tagging system than e621. Mostly because they don't purge popular tags and try to reorganize everything to something only they believe is "technically sound".

yea no... while i'll give inkbunny credit for having the best tagging system out of every site that isn't a booru. it's still a far cry from sheer detail and comprehensiveness that a more democratic tagging system present in image boards like this can offer, both in what tags exist and in which tags get applied to posts. and i haven't seen any other booru achieve that potential quite like e6
(although i will admit that there's still much to be improved in alot of areas, boy howdy do i regret making jack-n'-lantern. it's not even spelled right. but atleast i can do something about it and either alias or mass-update it to the more descriptive pumpkin_masturbation tag, meanwhile there is noting i can do about glopossum's whack ass tags not that i'd want to, mind. they're great works of literature that should be preserved in libraries across the world)

[piss]

Cub= young furry. Young= young anything. There should have been more discussion before this was done.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Cub= young furry. Young= young anything. There should have been more discussion before this was done.

I mean, furry is an invalid tag as well, so...

edit: also, it's not our fault if all of the -1 votes failed to voice their opinions. the only one that did was alphamule, who only objected because the thought of populating the new tags, and not an objection to the actual idea.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Cub= young furry. Young= young anything. There should have been more discussion before this was done.

There have been years of discussions. The ending to most was either mixed misunderstanding, or the idea of the aliasing of the tag. The only difference here is someone actually started the process.

zombieastronaut said:
I highly doubt a user that search cubs there wants to see human lolis/shotas or teens but from now on they have to

~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur -adolescent. Or child ~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur depending on what exactly you're looking for.

I will say this though, people are NOT using young_anthro / young_feral etc correctly and are just using young. i assume this is due to them simply typing cub and it ending up just being young due to the alias.

This is why i asked if there should have been some sort of announcement. I mean look at OP. Took em this long to find out.

Also, if pussy is being planned to be aliased, i think cub js a reasonable slang term that can get the axe.

also, it was decided that the final alias would be the cub -> young alias was done because it was a commonly blacklisted tag, and it was decided it'd be better to move the tag up to it's closest valid "parent" tag rather than purge it's population and then alias it to laterally to the most populous resultant split tag, young_anthro.

cloudpie said:
~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur -adolescent. Or child ~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur depending on what exactly you're looking for.

Oh, how convenient. Typing all that instead of one 3 letter tag every time I want to search for cubs.

zombieastronaut said:
Oh, how convenient. Typing all that instead of one 3 letter tag every time I want to search for cubs.

Better than the ambiguity of the "cub" tag making search results bad, though, surely.

zombieastronaut said:
Oh, how convenient. Typing all that instead of one 3 letter tag every time I want to search for cubs.

I already explained to you that you can have the same results searching only young if you use your blacklist.

You need to add to your blacklist the tags young_human, young_humanoid and adolescent.

The blacklist will weed out the undesired posts from your usual young search, effectively turning the young tag into your definition of "cub".

https://e621.net/help/blacklist

donovan_dmc said:
There have been years of discussions. The ending to most was either mixed misunderstanding, or the idea of the aliasing of the tag. The only difference here is someone actually started the process.

You've basically discussed it beyond closed doors, instead of asking what actual users think about it. It's no surprise average user won't regularly check the forums. Hell, I didn't even notice that forum even existed until today when I purposely searched for a place to rant about this change. Not leaving any notice is just an icing on the cake. It's just like that time when you decided to kill off the mascot page. At least this one came back.

set #54530

zombieastronaut said:
You've basically discussed it beyond closed doors

???

It was discussed extensively here, in these public forums. Where the hell else were we meant to discuss it? in the comments of random posts?

zombieastronaut said:
You've basically discussed it beyond closed doors, instead of asking what actual users think about it. It's no surprise average user won't regularly check the forums. Hell, I didn't even notice that forum even existed until today when I purposely searched for a place to rant about this change. Not leaving any notice is just an icing on the cake. It's just like that time when you decided to kill off the mascot page. At least this one came back.

Not really, the forums are visible to anyone, even without an account. They aren't hidden either, there's a link at the top of every single page to go to them.

FYI, we did plan to make an announcement. It got overshadowed by a legal matter, the NC ban.

zombieastronaut said:
You've basically discussed it beyond closed doors, instead of asking what actual users think about it. It's no surprise average user won't regularly check the forums. Hell, I didn't even notice that forum even existed until today when I purposely searched for a place to rant about this change. Not leaving any notice is just an icing on the cake. It's just like that time when you decided to kill off the mascot page. At least this one came back.

what would be your definition of open doors then? an actual announcement on the banner/ front page? a notification to your d-mails? i don't think i need to repeat the point of how public these forums are, just because you don't use them doesn't gate keep the discussion/information.

kemonophonic said:
set #54530

Yeah, this is actually a super-useful set. Making it a set made tagging it actually feasible. Still a long way to go, though!

I mean, in theory, we could have an implication to cub from young_anthro and young_feral but I feel that ship's done sailed, especially since there's a set for those still wanting to use the old tag. Literally just replace "cub" with "set:cub_apocalypse" in your searches or blacklists. See also: young -young_human -young_humanoid

A more user-friendly behavior of searching for tags like cub, is it SHOULD warn you this tag was aliased, and point to forum post where it was voted to be aliased. Not sure how feasible that is to add. Bloatware and featuritis is real.

I don't think this was the worst change but I don't think the community has adjusted.
The cub tag was used for strictly underage characters and while the young tag was supposed to be the same, it doesn't take much scrolling to see that isn't the case. Now with this change the young tag is supposed to be for underage characters but the community doesn't realize this, so now we have a whole lot of pictures tagged with "young" that aren't underage, some examples being https://e621.net/posts/4584979 https://e621.net/posts/4584932 https://e621.net/posts/4583851
I don't think a lot of artists would be happy when they get callout posts on them because their art got tagged with young (which now means exclusively underage) when that wasn't their intention at all

zeerna said:
I don't think a lot of artists would be happy when they get callout posts on them because their art got tagged with young (which now means exclusively underage)

It has always meant that.

zeerna said:
so now we have a whole lot of pictures tagged with "young" that aren't underage [...]
I don't think a lot of artists would be happy when they get callout posts on them because their art got tagged with young (which now means exclusively underage) when that wasn't their intention at all

We always had these kind of mistags and I don't think that will ever change. Young was already a tag before all this and cub used to imply young for a very long time until it was aliased to it. The definition of young hasn't changed either, it always meant "character who looks like they're underage", cub was just young anthro/feral, so I doubt this has really caused any additional mistags in that regard.

zeerna said:
the young tag is supposed to be for underage characters but the community doesn't realize this, so now we have a whole lot of pictures tagged with "young" that aren't underage

Random taggers would remove cub from young because they incorrectly believed that cub was 14~15 year olds or less, so the appearance of the cub tag skewed younger than young might have. This was always wrong. What you may be realizing is the poor state of young tagging now that you're no longer behind the lens of the cub tag. This isn't new either. Young has suffered from lore-tagging (and untagging) for a long time too.

In the case of the posts you linked, one can argue that the first post shows an adolescent due to the size difference. I don't like dealing with that situation, and I see it a lot. The second post is an oppai_loli, a young subgenre that gets tagged by association regardless if correct (e.g., ilulu...). Big breasts with an undeveloped body. The tag is correct for that post. The third post looks like a lore mistag, from the same artist-uploader as your first post, which was also lore-tagged. Welcome to my hell.

abadbird said:
Welcome to my hell.

*pats shoulder* Aww, it's not that bad. It's sometimes worse! (joke)

Seriously though, we're not even remotely done with the cub_apocalypse set. Incoming shotapocalypse is like that episode of Reboot with two games loaded on top of each other.

I can't reply to everyone so just assume I'm replying to everyone here. I know young has always meant a character that looks or is underage, I'm just saying there is a good percentage of people that see the tag "young" and don't think it means underage and I think its due to the name of the tag. With cub this mistake didn't happen, at least not as frequently. While I think the removal of the cub tag is fine, I don't think young is the best replacement just because the word young doesn't imply underage which can lead to confusion because we're using a different definition of the word young

zeerna said:
I can't reply to everyone so just assume I'm replying to everyone here. I know young has always meant a character that looks or is underage, I'm just saying there is a good percentage of people that see the tag "young" and don't think it means underage and I think its due to the name of the tag. Like lets use an example, if you had an older woman with a younger male, because of the wording you'd think the tag "younger_male" applies but it doesn't and it never had, whereas with cub this mistake didn't happen, at least not as frequently. While I think the removal of the cub tag is fine, I don't think young is the best replacement just because the word young doesn't imply underage which can lead to confusion because we're using a different definition of the word young

Young doesn't equal younger?

zeerna said:
if you had an older woman with a younger male, because of the wording you'd think the tag "younger_male" applies but it doesn't and it never had

Except it does. Younger male works with any age difference, and does not imply young.

alphamule said:
Young doesn't equal younger?

I reckon they meant "young" is a word for anybody aged between 0 and 25 (sometimes higher), as oppposed to old.

Minor would have been a better tag in that respect imo.

wolfmanfur said:
I reckon they meant "young" is a word for anybody aged between 0 and 25 (sometimes higher), as oppposed to old.

Minor would have been a better tag in that respect imo.

We don't use underage or minor due to them being loaded terms. In the same vein, cub was also a loaded term.

wolfmanfur said:
Minor would have been a better tag in that respect imo.

Definitely not, minor has a legal meaning and would upset artists even more, drawings are not minors because they're not real. I think young is a fine name personally, people just need to get used to it not necessarily meaning a character is canonically underage at all, they just... look young, because not everyone wants to see young-looking characters.
If we were gonna change the name (i'm not saying we necessarily should), maybe something like "youthful_appearance"??

donovan_dmc said:
Except it does. Younger male works with any age difference, and does not imply young.

Edited, noticed the mistake (tired sry)

donovan_dmc said:
We don't use underage or minor due to them being loaded terms. In the same vein, cub was also a loaded term.

I understand not using underage or minor, but I think young should be reconsidered as its not the definition of the word young

zeerna said:
I understand not using underage or minor, but I think young should be reconsidered as its not the definition of the word young

Not using the dictionary definition is kinda our thing. Many tags don't follow their dictionary definition.

IMO, "young" is a hell of a lot better than "cub" precisely because it has a more ambiguous scope.

People will fight tooth and nail to avoid having their art tagged with "cub" – sometimes for reasons of personal safety – and I did feel it was tagged a bit too generously which I'll just have to agree-to-disagree on.

"Young" is a much, much more neutral term. It may be less precise, but it's also less likely to get an artist attacked for their art style alone. It's the best compromise possible that I can think of.

donovan_dmc said:
Not using the dictionary definition is kinda our thing. Many tags don't follow their dictionary definition.

But in those cases there's not much confusion on what is meant, with young there has been and will be confusion. I don't think tags like young, young_anthro, young_feral etc. are good replacements

lendrimujina said:
IMO, "young" is a hell of a lot better than "cub" precisely because it has a more ambiguous scope.

People will fight tooth and nail to avoid having their art tagged with "cub" – sometimes for reasons of personal safety – and I did feel it was tagged a bit too generously which I'll just have to agree-to-disagree on.

"Young" is a much, much more neutral term. It may be less precise, but it's also less likely to get an artist attacked for their art style alone. It's the best compromise possible that I can think of.

A big problem with it is that its less precise. People already have been attacked for having their art tagged as young (freckles is an example) and now having an even more ambiguous tag that gets tagged mistakenly on more posts isn't a solution

zeerna said:
People already have been attacked for having their art tagged as young (freckles is an example) and now having an even more ambiguous tag that gets tagged mistakenly on more posts isn't a solution

My mistake, then.

Maybe Cloudpie's suggestion of emphasizing appearance would be better? Artist safety should still be a high priority, if you ask me, but... this admittedly isn't an easy problem to solve because, no matter how paranoid you are, some crazies will slip past your guard.

Edit: ...you know what? Forget I said anything. This is a truly unsolvable problem.

lendrimujina said:
My mistake, then.

Maybe Cloudpie's suggestion of emphasizing appearance would be better? Artist safety should still be a high priority, if you ask me, but... this admittedly isn't an easy problem to solve because, no matter how paranoid you are, some crazies will slip past your guard.

Edit: ...you know what? Forget I said anything. This is a truly unsolvable problem.

Yeah theres never gonna be a perfect solution to this as tagging isn't perfect. I do hope staff does figure out something a bit better as time goes on

zeerna said:
A big problem with it is that its less precise. People already have been attacked for having their art tagged as young

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: a piece of cub art looks just as much like a piece of cub art to whoever's viewing it regardless of the young tag being applied.

if people are going to be drawing baby pokémon on model, canonically young characters that don't look aged up, and OCs that dress and act and look like schoolchildren, well-- you should be expecting people to see the characters as young.

Ultimately more artists will go DNP, which is not good for the site, the artists, or anyone really. Locking the tags will only exacerbate the problem. Locking the forums really does not help either. The conversation will continue, whether anyone tries to stop it or not.

zeerna said:
(freckles is an example)

freckles is a pretty poor example unless you can give us evidence of them getting attacked for having their 9 of 3,000 posts tagged as young, because i've looked up freckles_(artist) young searching for comments like that and found zilch

i will say that apart form post #669529 none of the nsfw incest stuff tagged with young look actually young to me apart from the size difference between the respective sons and mothers, especially post #1369756

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Ultimately more artists will go DNP, which is not good for the site, the artists, or anyone really.

if people don't like TWYS it's better if they go DNP than just argue and tag war about it every time they post an image with a young character in it, saves everyone the trouble.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Locking the tags will only exacerbate the problem.

it's either lock the tags or let the "controversial" tags toggle on and off every several hours endlessly until the heatdeath.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
Locking the forums really does not help either. The conversation will continue, whether anyone tries to stop it or not.

the discussion is only going to continue untill one side realizes the policies aren't going to change just because they don't like them.

zeerna said:
But in those cases there's not much confusion on what is meant, with young there has been and will be confusion. I don't think tags like young, young_anthro, young_feral etc. are good replacements

A big problem with it is that its less precise. People already have been attacked for having their art tagged as young (freckles is an example) and now having an even more ambiguous tag that gets tagged mistakenly on more posts isn't a solution

People are not tagging young onto these posts because they are misinterpreting young to mean an of age youthful adult. They are tagging them because the characters are depicted as being underage. A lot of these have admin tag locks, which furthers the point that these aren't a result of a misunderstanding. This has been going on long before we aliased away cub.

Do we have a young_adult tag or something? A lot of the stuff brought up in the locked or cub-related threads are r/13or30 material.

Cases in the vague grey area of 20yrs old twinks and short adults.

sipothac said:
if people don't like TWYS it's better if they go DNP than just argue and tag war about it every time they post an image with a young character in it, saves everyone the trouble.

But the archival? This is an archive website and this lazy-ish behavior shuts a bunch of posts away from being archived.

dimoretpinel said:
But the archival? This is an archive website and this lazy-ish behavior shuts a bunch of posts away from being archived.

yeah, it's unfortunate that we'd be losing a chunk of posts. but the options of creating double standards or changing the rules of the most integral function of the site is not better.

if the artist really can't stand TWYS working as intended, there's really not much we can do.

sipothac said:
if the artist really can't stand TWYS working as intended, there's really not much we can do.

It's not working as intended. The fact that we have such heated debates over what qualifies a post for the tag, even when we are going entirely by visible attributes, tells me that we at least have considerably more ironing-out to do with the system. I don't know what a good solution would be, but what we have now is a band-aid.

lendrimujina said:
It's not working as intended. The fact that we have such heated debates over what qualifies a post for the tag, even when we are going entirely by visible attributes, tells me that we at least have considerably more ironing-out to do with the system. I don't know what the solution would be, but it's clear to me that the way things are now is a band-aid at most.

Always err on the side of overtagging young. really the only option in this case.

lendrimujina said:
It's not working as intended. The fact that we have such heated debates over what qualifies a post for the tag, even when we are going entirely by visible attributes, tells me that we at least have considerably more ironing-out to do with the system.

Double standard? We hardly even have a single standard. It's still too arbitrary.

There really is no standard. You ask 10 different people and get 10 completely different answers.

rainbow_dash said:
A lot of these have admin tag locks, which furthers the point that these aren't a result of a misunderstanding.

So admins are somehow completely immune to misunderstandings?

sipothac said:

the discussion is only going to continue untill one side realizes the policies aren't going to change just because they don't like them.

So it'll continue forever then.

lendrimujina said:
It's not working as intended. The fact that we have such heated debates over what qualifies a post for the tag, even when we are going entirely by visible attributes, tells me that we at least have considerably more ironing-out to do with the system. I don't know what a good solution would be, but what we have now is a band-aid.

There are debates because, ultimately "young" is a very subjective tag that entirely depends on the person viewing the image. I've seen posts locked as young I don't think look young and posts locked as -young I think do. People are always going to disagree.

But the tag obviously has to exist regardless because it's such a controversial thing, so ultimately I feel like the question becomes less "do I think this looks young" and more "do I think the average person with young blacklisted wants to see this", and in the case of that one Rigby post, the answer to that would be no, I really don't think most people who blacklist young want to see that image.

I agree with erring on the side of caution, though I also would say I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with removing a tag you don't think fits - I've ripped a number of "young"s off Genshin posts today and yesterday that I thought didn't fit. But starting wars about it is where issues arise and staff has to make a decision, because people go back and forth changing tags and inevitably someone complains about their blacklist not working as it should.

hjfduitloxtrds said:
There really is no standard. You ask 10 different people and get 10 completely different answers.

how are you going to get 10 different answers from a true/false question?

dripen_arn said:
freckles is a pretty poor example unless you can give us evidence of them getting attacked for having their 9 of 3,000 posts tagged as young, because i've looked up freckles_(artist) young searching for comments like that and found zilch

i will say that apart form post #669529 none of the nsfw incest stuff tagged with young look actually young to me apart from the size difference between the respective sons and mothers, especially post #1369756

Freckles had to go locked on twitter for a while due to harassment over people literally looking up their artist tag and adding "young" to the search without even questioning if the art was or not https://x.com/MammonMagus/status/1678421877243379713 . I'm pretty sure some of the posts got corrected but the damage was done.

rainbow_dash said:
People are not tagging young onto these posts because they are misinterpreting young to mean an of age youthful adult. They are tagging them because the characters are depicted as being underage. A lot of these have admin tag locks, which furthers the point that these aren't a result of a misunderstanding. This has been going on long before we aliased away cub.

Thats part of it, and that will never go away regardless of what the tag is named but, there are people tagging young on posts thinking it means youthful adult it doesn't take much scrolling under the young tag to see that. This is something that can be avoided if "young" wasn't the underage/looking underage tag.

I’m repeating myself but I think it wouldnt hurt to have a young_adult tag that isnt young and lore tag.

dimoretpinel said:
I’m repeating myself but I think it wouldnt hurt to have a young_adult tag that isnt young and lore tag.

Even if we created some new tag, it'd either be in addition to, or a subtag of our current tags. Making a new tag doesn't change "this post must have this tag" to "ok, it doesn't need it anymore".

dimoretpinel said:
I’m repeating myself but I think it wouldnt hurt to have a young_adult tag that isnt young and lore tag.

that's only going to add to the existing "adult" age category, and it wouldn't effect what got tagged young. characters who are adolescents would still be tagged adolescent which implies young.

zeerna said:
I think young should be reconsidered as its not the definition of the word young

Sort of. But that's a good point. I think when people say "young" in normal conversations (tag-unaware), they are usually making some sort of comparison, like how we use the younger_* tags. In conversation, someone or something is usually "young" relative to some other thing, even if that other thing is not named and only meant to be understood implicitly. This person is young relative to some arbitrary standard. For example, young can mean inexperienced to some people, and an artist uploading and tagging their art may consider their 20-year-old character inexperienced at life and tag them young. That probably does happen to some small degree. Conversely, many people do not consider someone an adult just because they are the local age of majority but rather as an assessment of their assets, knowledge, and how they handle themselves in society. But on e621, young = not an adult.

Trying to find some technical word that can collectively refer to post-birth/hatch non-adults, the best I came away with was immature or developing. I wanted better. The more technical term for "adult" would be mature, sexually mature, or fully developed. Note that sexual maturity does not only mean "able to reproduce" lol.

sipothac said:
how are you going to get 10 different answers from a true/false question?

The differences in the answers, and what is being debated, are in what criteria determine whether it is true or false. Nobody can agree on exactly where the lines are that separate "has a cutesy art style" from "looks underage".

It's exactly the refusal to draw these lines anywhere consistent which basically killed FurAffinity. (Even art styles less cartoony than my own have been struck down as possible cub under their new policies, so of course I had to leave...)

lendrimujina said:
The differences in the answers, and what is being debated, are in what criteria determine whether it is true or false. Nobody can agree on exactly where the lines are that separate "has a cutesy art style" from "looks underage".

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

lendrimujina said:

It's exactly the refusal to draw these lines anywhere consistent which basically killed FurAffinity. (Even art styles less cartoony than my own have been struck down as possible cub under their new policies, so of course I had to leave...)

I actually find quite interesting that some posts that are locked young here are allowed on FA, which actually has very strict rules against cub/ young artwork

hjfduitloxtrds said:
I actually find quite interesting that some posts that are locked young here are allowed on FA, which actually has very strict rules against cub/ young artwork

Different definitions and different moderation does that.

lendrimujina said:
The differences in the answers, and what is being debated, are in what criteria determine whether it is true or false. Nobody can agree on exactly where the lines are that separate "has a cutesy art style" from "looks underage".

It's exactly the refusal to draw these lines anywhere consistent which basically killed FurAffinity. (Even art styles less cartoony than my own have been struck down as possible cub under their new policies, so of course I had to leave...)

Furaffinity also uses the Tanner Scale for the exact purposes that the late Professor Tanner specifically said not to use it for. Unfortunately, that seems to be misused in that manner fairly often.

votp said:
Furaffinity also uses the Tanner Scale for the exact purposes that the late Professor Tanner specifically said not to use it for. Unfortunately, that seems to be misused in that manner fairly often.

Wikipedia said:
The scale has been criticized by the pornography industry for its potential to lead to false child pornography convictions, such as in the case of pornographic actress Lupe Fuentes where in 2009 United States federal authorities used it to assert that she was not an adult despite her age. Fuentes personally appeared at the trial and provided documentation that showed that the DVDs in question were legally produced.

Tanner, the author of the classification system, has argued that age classification using the stages of the scale misrepresents the intended use. Tanner stages do not match with chronological age, but rather maturity stages and thus are not diagnostic for age estimation.

I learn something new every day...

I wanted to add to this discussion that I think this discussion will always happen, no matter what tag is used, because the wants / needs for artists and viewers are in conflict. Most artists, ultimately, want to maximize the number of viewers of their art and the number of followers, which gets undermined nowadays with things like callout posts being used so liberally, which means most tend to shy away from any tags that imply the character might be, or appear to be, under the age of majority. Meanwhile, most viewers want to feel safe knowing they won't see anything that they might find objectionable or, worse, risk them getting in trouble, which means they'd rather have tags implying the character might be the age of majority applied liberally. Now, this isn't to say that this applies to all artists or viewers, but there's enough in each camp to cause such debates to continue forever, and no perfect decision can satisfy their mutually-exclusive needs.

kyureki said:
I wanted to add to this discussion that I think this discussion will always happen, no matter what tag is used, because the wants / needs for artists and viewers are in conflict. Most artists, ultimately, want to maximize the number of viewers of their art and the number of followers, which gets undermined nowadays with things like callout posts being used so liberally, which means most tend to shy away from any tags that imply the character might be, or appear to be, under the age of majority. Meanwhile, most viewers want to feel safe knowing they won't see anything that they might find objectionable or, worse, risk them getting in trouble, which means they'd rather have tags implying the character might be the age of majority applied liberally. Now, this isn't to say that this applies to all artists or viewers, but there's enough in each camp to cause such debates to continue forever, and no perfect decision can satisfy their mutually-exclusive needs.

THIS. this is exactly why e6 acts in a "selfish" way. we function purely in our own bubble not caring what outsiders will say about us. mods always say dnp or blacklist it if you have a problem, you're not forced to be here or to contribute or join in on anything. but if you ARE, you have to follow OUR rules. nothing more nothing less.

that's what really matters, no matter the tag controversy is in the end of the day.

benjiboyo said:
THIS. this is exactly why e6 acts in a "selfish" way. we function purely in our own bubble not caring what outsiders will say about us.

That's not exactly true. The site does change based on feedback from users (e.g. changing our tags to be less vulgar and crass (dickgirl, cuntboy), removing less useful tags that people have a problem with (cub)). It's just that there's only so far you can go before it would cause tags to become pointless, which would be a problem especially for one as important as young.

cloudpie said:
Definitely not, minor has a legal meaning and would upset artists even more, drawings are not minors because they're not real. I think young is a fine name personally, people just need to get used to it not necessarily meaning a character is canonically underage at all, they just... look young, because not everyone wants to see young-looking characters.
If we were gonna change the name (i'm not saying we necessarily should), maybe something like "youthful_appearance"??

That way is hellish. Youthful-appearing_male, I mean come on. ;) Hehe, can you imagine?
There is a site that uses Porkymon which the equivalent here would be not-crone or not-ancient or so similar sillyness.

lendrimujina said:
It's not working as intended. The fact that we have such heated debates over what qualifies a post for the tag, even when we are going entirely by visible attributes, tells me that we at least have considerably more ironing-out to do with the system. I don't know what a good solution would be, but what we have now is a band-aid.

Well that or people need to chill out.

Tanner scale abuse is sometime hilarious, sometimes scary AF. <--- Oh, an anagram of FA!

We had to have this site somewhat aloft, because of the drama that comes from being a magnet for the usual suspects. I think most of use know by now what happens if you kowtow to either narcissists or intolerant(of things they don't like) people.