Hi there. So heres whats happened so far in case you missed it and want a synopsis.

The Tags have been given a go ahead for a change on the grounds they are vulgar. The issue comes down to clarity and efficiency.

If you are here simply to complain then please leave before you even begin. This is not a discussion about whether or not the tags are an issue but what the best possible alternative tags are. Thank you for your cooperation.

Right now the main goal is to figure out what tags would be best without being vulgar or just causing the same problem we already have.

Some tags have gotten ground,

Andromorph and Gynomorph
Masculine_intersex and feminine_intersex
And variations on "bodytype_with_genitaltype"

If you have nothing to contribute on the matter or are here to complain this is too pc please consider that we have gone 30 pages of people like you complaining and wasting our time and frankly its neither wanted not needed. Further I must remind that there has been admin confirmation that there is an issue with the vulgarity of the tags and that they can be changed. So please refrain if all youre going to be is uncivil and rude or conplainant.

[ORIGINAL POST STARTS BELOW]
I know this has come up countless times probably but its a problem. A big one honestly and the fact that the community is still using terms like Dickgirl and Cuntboy (really?) In this day and age is kinda apalling.

What we need are tags that are still straight and to the point falling under the twys guidelines.

Id suggested transboy (to replace cuntboy) and transgirl (and replace dickgirl) but was shot down by the previous admin under the principles of "tag what you know."
We know however for a fact that this site runs on "Tag what you see" rules and for the mostpart if a character is gender bent to have those different/extra parts its safe to say they fall under the umbrella of what you would call transgender as after all that simply means anything that is not the birth or creation assigned gender.

Its 2016. We need to move on from these outdated insulting terms.

Transgirl would replace dickgirl. Usage is the same as the current dickgirl wiki entry. A character with boobs and an otherwise female ish body and a penis+balls.

Intersex should replace any instance of the term futanari if it hasnt already as futanari specifically refers to female gwnitals where the clitoris has been replaced with a penis.

Transboy would replace cuntboy for the same reasons as above. An overall male body with no breasts and a vulva/vagina.

Herm is still an applicable term and refers to characters with both sets of genitals. A penis, balls and a vagina/vulva.

If anyone has any LEGITIMATE problems with this please raise them in a civil manner.

Wouldn't a trans be someone who got a sex change? Not someone who merely looms like a man but has a vagina or looks like a woman but has a penis? Als, futanari is just the japanese term for hermaphrodite and is used interchangeably with shemale and transexual people. It isn't specifically for penile clitoris.

Here we go again...

What's wrong with the words Cuntboy ("One who looks like a male but has a vagina instead," straight and to the point) and dickgirl ("one who looks like a female but has a dick instead," also straight and to the point)? They're straightforward and to the point, whereas "Transboy" is a confusing term, is it that the boy underwent transexual surgery, or somebody became a boy through transexual surgery? The "Trans" part also says "Underwent transexual surgery" which we can't often see. "Crossgender" is one of the tags that can be planted onto an image based on outside information, but transexual surgery is not. There are canons based around alternate universes where differences can be as simple as different genders.

Ko-san said:
Wouldn't a trans be someone who got a sex change? Not someone who merely looms like a man but has a vagina or looks like a woman but has a penis? Als, futanari is just the japanese term for hermaphrodite and is used interchangeably with shemale and transexual people. It isn't specifically for penile clitoris.

Trans refers to someone who identifies as the other gender/has partial characteristics of the other gender. Thats it thats all it means. Theres no requirement for surgery to have happened to be trans.

Furthermore every time the term futanari is used in Doujin. You know where the term comes from. It specifically refers to girls with a dick, no balls and a vulva.

Furrin_Gok said:
What's wrong with the words Cuntboy ("One who looks like a male but has a vagina instead," straight and to the point) and dickgirl ("one who looks like a female but has a dick instead," also straight and to the point)? They're straightforward and to the point, whereas "Transboy" is a confusing term, is it that the boy underwent transexual surgery, or somebody became a boy through transexual surgery? The "Trans" part also says "Underwent transexual surgery" which we can't often see. "Crossgender" is one of the tags that can be planted onto an image based on outside information, but transexual surgery is not. There are canons based around alternate universes where differences can be as simple as different genders.

Ok one. The way youre using crossgender is literally no different from the term transgender.

Its obviously not Too confusing a concept.

Two, as a good friend of mine who is trans put it. Much better than I could.

"Something along the lines of "these terms are harmful outside the community because they lead to the objectification and stereotyping of real life people.
Like trans girls getting called dickgirls or traps or whatever irl

As if their identity boils down to a kink or something
Plus they have a weird othering effect

Like you're saying "a girl but with a dick" or "a boy but with a vag"

And identities do not equal parts."

Lastly. Theyre slurs that the entire trans community find offensive. A lot of furs are trans.

You wouldnt tag a black skinned human with the N word. Right? Same reason we dont use the term "ebony" anymore.

GDelscribe said:
Ok one. The way youre using crossgender is literally no different from the term transgender.

Its obviously not Too confusing a concept.

Two, as a good friend of mine who is trans put it. Much better than I could.

"Something along the lines of "these terms are harmful outside the community because they lead to the objectification and stereotyping of real life people.
Like trans girls getting called dickgirls or traps or whatever irl

As if their identity boils down to a kink or something
Plus they have a weird othering effect

Like you're saying "a girl but with a dick" or "a boy but with a vag"

And identities do not equal parts."

Lastly. Theyre slurs that the entire trans community find offensive. A lot of furs are trans.

You wouldnt tag a black skinned human with the N word. Right? Same reason we dont use the term "ebony" anymore.

If you're taking offense to a term that isn't being used in an offensive manner, that's your own problem. Don't try to punish us for using perfectly innocent words. You wanted a straight forward and to the point tag, there you have it. We tag what we see, not what we know; a person identifying as one gender or the other is something to know, not see.

Real life people should be known, but fictional are fictional. If you can't understand that there's a difference between the two, then use the takedown tool to remove images of your character.

Furrin_Gok said:
If you're taking offense to a term that isn't being used in an offensive manner, that's your own problem. Don't try to punish us for using perfectly innocent words. You wanted a straight forward and to the point tag, there you have it. We tag what we see, not what we know; a person identifying as one gender or the other is something to know, not see.

Real life people should be known, but fictional are fictional. If you can't understand that there's a difference between the two, then use the takedown tool to remove images of your character.

Nobody is punishing anyone.

I dont think you even read what I said?

And this is supposed to be a civil discussion theres no need to act like Im personally attacking you.

The issue isnt me taking offense. It doesnt matter the intent when something is fundamentally offensive and denigrating to an entire group of people.

Tagwhatyousee still applies to my proposed tags and theres nothing wrong with them. Theres nothing confusing about them.

Dickgirl changes to transgirl.
Cuntboy changes to transboy.

Its essy to understand. It fulfills the same purpose without being fundamentally demeaning.

Again. Like I said before. You wouldnt tag a dark skinned human as the N word or "ebony". You wouldnt tag an asian character with offensive slurs by nature od them being asian. Why should trans people be demeaned and treated like lesser people?

Its not a case of sepearating fiction from reality. Its understanding that slurs cause real world harm regardless of intent.

This is a community and it includes all kinds of people. Its time to grow up and act like adults and drop the slur tags.

It alienates a large portion of the furry userbase and has pushed a lot of people away from here. E621 has a negative reputation for a lot of thingd and this is a big one.

Qmannn said:
I've heard "shemale" being used as a slur because people equate being male to "penis (and balls)", but never dickgirl nor cuntboy. Are those actually used to insult others or do you just not like the informal names for those sexes?

I don't like transboy and transgirl if only for the fact that sex and gender aren't the same thing and, by the same token, transgender and transex aren't the same. Similarly, I feel that ambiguous_gender being changed to ambiguous_sex would help to discourage conversations regarding gender identity because that's completely irrelevant to TWYS.

Also, you failed to take maleherm into account.

Thats a really good point and Ill have to think on that for a bit. I also agree with a you for the ambiguous_sex tag thats brilliant and cuts a lot of issues out.

As to the terms, theyre slurs for the same reason as shemale, trap, heshe, etc are actually!

I sort of agree with you on that as if were tagging by sex perhaps transboy/transgirl arent optimal either as they do implicate gender slightly but they can be used still interchangeably with people post or mid transition. So. *shrug*

Do you have any suggestions as to better terms?
.

I'm not really a big fan of either dickgirl/cuntboy or transgirl/transboy.

I think we should avoid indicating trans* one way or another, for various reasons. It seems to me, as far as furries go, there are simply more than two sexes, and a character can be between sexes without being in the middle of a transition or anything of the like.

Especially when we start dealing with species that might already break human sex and gender trends. Genital slits, cloacae, and pseudopenises are obnoxious enough to tag as it is without adding in the additional emotional weight associated with trans* issues when they clearly aren't applicable.

What we need is a general solution to the problem of sex and gender tagging, but I've yet to see any satisfactory solutions that gain any traction.

I'm okay with the terms cuntboy, shemale, and trans/trans-gender, and queer, but dickgirl sounds off for me. No idea why.

as trans masc person, i find the term cuntboy offensive. i cant speak for all trans folk but i am fairly sure that all those terms are offensive and not really nice to use even if they are not meant as insults.

but one problem is that its not very easy to find non offensive replacement for these words that are 1. easy to understand what its meant for 2. not excessively long. but if someone actually is able to find an usable replacement, there is absolutely no reason to not change them.

I suggest these terms:
Male -> Cockman
Female -> Vaginawoman
Cuntboy -> Vaginaman
Dickgirl -> Cockwoman
Herm -> Selfreproductivefurrymadness
Maleherm -> twoinone
Ambiguous_gender -> atleasthasabootyhole
Featureless_crotch -> barbie

I'd wager 99% of furry characters were equipped with the right junk when they were born, instead of changing genders through surgical and nonsurgical means, as people do in the real world. So calling them transsexual wouldn't be right either.

haven't we had this discussion like 203 times before

pls stop

Clawdragons said:
I'm not really a big fan of either dickgirl/cuntboy or transgirl/transboy.

I think we should avoid indicating trans* one way or another, for various reasons. It seems to me, as far as furries go, there are simply more than two sexes, and a character can be between sexes without being in the middle of a transition or anything of the like.

Especially when we start dealing with species that might already break human sex and gender trends. Genital slits, cloacae, and pseudopenises are obnoxious enough to tag as it is without adding in the additional emotional weight associated with trans* issues when they clearly aren't applicable.

What we need is a general solution to the problem of sex and gender tagging, but I've yet to see any satisfactory solutions that gain any traction.

Thats actually is a really really fair statement. As a writer of speculative science fiction who has a lot of unusual specied (some of which dont even have a gender binary and a few that dont have a sex binary either) its a fair assessment to make that we might need to think a little harder than using trans* umbrella terms but. Still...

Mutisija said:
as trans masc person, i find the term cuntboy offensive. i cant speak for all trans folk but i am fairly sure that all those terms are offensive and not really nice to use even if they are not meant as insults.

but one problem is that its not very easy to find non offensive replacement for these words that are 1. easy to understand what its meant for 2. not excessively long. but if someone actually is able to find an usable replacement, there is absolutely no reason to not change them.

I been trying to come up with somethin that pleases everyone! But its surprisingly hard. To be fair it would probably be easier to avoid gender and sex tags outright if possible.

I cant speak for much myself. Im nb and generally dont care for gender terms or sex terms myself but. My girlfriends both agree that dickgirl and cboy are universally offensive.

Qmannn said:

Honestly, I don't have a problem with what we currently have. The tags are just supposed to give people an idea of what they'll be seeing.

The latter point is valid but to be fair. Its not the place of cis folks to decide what is and isnt ok for the trans community you know? Even if you personally dont have an issue with the tags. A lot of people, myself included do. And yeah I get it theyre utilitarian and handy but its not worth the negative aspects.

Qmannn said:
I've heard "shemale" being used as a slur because people equate being male to "penis (and balls)", but never dickgirl nor cuntboy. Are those actually used to insult others or do you just not like the informal names used for those sexes?

I don't like transboy and transgirl if only for the fact that sex and gender aren't the same thing and, by the same token, transgender and intersex/transex aren't the same. Similarly, I feel that ambiguous_gender being changed to ambiguous_sex would help to discourage conversations regarding gender identity because that's completely irrelevant to TWYS.

Also, you failed to take maleherm into account.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with what we currently have. The tags are just supposed to give people an idea of what they'll be seeing and the various intersexes don't have widely accepted terms (yet). Intersex literally means between sexes and most intersexed individuals are going to be leaning closer to one sex or the other.

This basically would have been my retort. We don't tag gender here, only sex, so trans in the sense would have to refer to a sex change.

And I'm loving Chaser's suggestions. Personally, though, I'm still stuck on wondering where the hell all these terms came from I the first place.

And there are futanari with balls and futanari with no vagina. Futanari literally translates to "to be of two kinds" and is used to describe anyone with both male and female traits. There is another term, being Newhalf, that is used for balls and no vagina but it is actually supposed to refer to trans people. However, the sites that enforce the term also follow a similar TWYS policy and outside information isn't taken into account when making the distinction between newhalf and futa.

I don't think using trans* would help, because not only does this reference the identified gender of a character instead of the displayed sex, but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.
If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

I personally preferred the suggestions brought up in forum #140749

While the terms may not have been used as slurs/insults, they still feel rather vulgar to most. Good to know the administration is open to feedback so long as good alternatives are proposed (I don't think trans* is a good alternative for reasons stated here).

NotMeNotYou said:
but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.

right, and even irl i'm pretty sure it's possible to be born as a cuntboy or dickgirl (aka shemale). it probably wouldn't be accurate to assume such people are trans based solely on appearance alone.

If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

it'd also likely lead to takedowns. i mean, we already know some artists can be set off by the smallest things sometimes. this would be asking for them to issue takedowns.

see my post in the mindfuck thread for my opinion on the gender thing (and a wtf list) if interested.

GDelscribe said:
To be fair it would probably be easier to avoid gender and sex tags outright if possible.

To clarify, this offhand statement means aliasing female, male, herm, intersex, cuntboy, and dickgirl to invalid_tag right? If so, this statement summarizes the thread for me by taking a system that works reasonably well and proposing the worst possible solution. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

The only other way I can interpret this comment is that you want to broaden the definition of ambiguous_gender.

The good news is that if we decided to alias terms like cuntboy to a less offensive term like vagentlemen, search links and blacklists with cuntboy in them will not break. While the tags list will become more politically correct on the surface, cuntboy and dickgirl will thus never really be defeated.

GDelscribe said:
You wouldnt tag a black skinned human with the N word. Right? Same reason we dont use the term "ebony" anymore.

We should proactively alias the N-word to dark_skin (I'm not saying this to be a smartass, I just don't want to be the one to type it in the suggest box.

GDelscribe said:
I know this has come up countless times probably but its a problem. A big one honestly and the fact that the community is still using terms like Dickgirl and Cuntboy (really?) In this day and age is kinda apalling.

What we need are tags that are still straight and to the point falling under the twys guidelines.

Id suggested transboy (to replace cuntboy) and transgirl (and replace dickgirl) but was shot down by the previous admin under the principles of "tag what you know."
We know however for a fact that this site runs on "Tag what you see" rules and for the mostpart if a character is gender bent to have those different/extra parts its safe to say they fall under the umbrella of what you would call transgender as after all that simply means anything that is not the birth or creation assigned gender.

Its 2016. We need to move on from these outdated insulting terms.

Transgirl would replace dickgirl. Usage is the same as the current dickgirl wiki entry. A character with boobs and an otherwise female ish body and a penis+balls.

Intersex should replace any instance of the term futanari if it hasnt already as futanari specifically refers to female gwnitals where the clitoris has been replaced with a penis.

Transboy would replace cuntboy for the same reasons as above. An overall male body with no breasts and a vulva/vagina.

Herm is still an applicable term and refers to characters with both sets of genitals. A penis, balls and a vagina/vulva.

If anyone has any LEGITIMATE problems with this please raise them in a civil manner.

But you can be a cis male with a vagina. :v

penis on girl it a dickgirl vagina on man it a cuntboy.

there's nothing transgendered about it. The character can just be someone who was born physically female for their entire body except for their Penis.

NotMeNotYou said:
Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

Phallady?

PhallusFantasy said:
But you can be a cis male with a vagina. :v

Wut?

You mean like someone who is born male, gets a sex change but still identifies as male?

How about we change the "redneck" tag to "Caucasian American Ruralite." Boy, my feelings sure are hurt when someone uses that R word. Hell that's worse than someone being called a nigger. I think I hear a safe space calling.
/Sarcasm

In all reality though, I use words that would never fly on this site on a daily basis.

TruckNutz said:
How about we change the "redneck" tag to "Caucasian American Ruralite." Boy, my feelings sure are hurt when someone uses that R word. Hell that's worse than someone being called a nigger. I think I hear a safe space calling.
/Sarcasm

In all reality though, I use words that would never fly on this site on a daily basis.

I use words you shouldn't use in real life in real life :p

Clawdragons said:
Phallady?

Sounds too close to "fallacy," might offend somebody.

>.>

Ko-san said:
I use words you shouldn't use in real life in real life :p

Like I said

NotMeNotYou said:
I don't think using trans* would help, because not only does this reference the identified gender of a character instead of the displayed sex, but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.
If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

I suppose I agree. It isnt fair to use trans* cause it does imply things etc.

So yeah youre right. But we definitely need something better. Vagentleman is cute as all hell. A lot better than something that literally starts with the word cunt.

The fact that a lot of the users here are treating this like a joke and acting like its a non issue is kinda part of the point of the culture it creates in general and the point I was making initially. V~V'

I do like the terms brought up in the post Kida made.

Kida said:
I personally preferred the suggestions brought up in forum #140749

While the terms may not have been used as slurs/insults, they still feel rather vulgar to most. Good to know the administration is open to feedback so long as good alternatives are proposed (I don't think trans* is a good alternative for reasons stated here).

The terms are definitely a step more in the right direction. We could go somewhere in terms of making these more utilized.

ambiguous_gender
binary
female (female)
male (male)
hermaphrodite
androherm (maleherm)
gynoherm (herm)
intersex
andromorph ('cuntboy')
gynomorph (dickgirl)

These are functional tags. But perhaps we can improve on these and use them as a base. I personally find them pretty ok and Ill be asking my friends in the community what They think as well.

Lance_Armstrong said:
To clarify, this offhand statement means aliasing female, male, herm, intersex, cuntboy, and dickgirl to invalid_tag right? If so, this statement summarizes the thread for me by taking a system that works reasonably well and proposing the worst possible solution. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

The only other way I can interpret this comment is that you want to broaden the definition of ambiguous_gender.

The good news is that if we decided to alias terms like cuntboy to a less offensive term like vagentlemen, search links and blacklists with cuntboy in them will not break. While the tags list will become more politically correct on the surface, cuntboy and dickgirl will thus never really be defeated.

We should proactively alias the N-word to dark_skin (I'm not saying this to be a smartass, I just don't want to be the one to type it in the suggest box.

I only meant broadening the term. Making all those tags invalid breaks the site and beats the purpose of using them. I actually specifically meant replacing/aliasing out ambiguous_gender to ambiguous_sex instead because physical sex means nothing to gender.

Its not about getting rid of the words completely either. But you have to start somewhere. Aliasing something out is a start in the right direction. Sorta like autocorrect. If you see the new word taking place of the old one long enough it becomes /normalized/ and when its normalized the other one becomes archaic and falls out of use.

As to that last point yeah thats probably a good idea.

Hm. Andromorph and gynomorph might actually work as replacements. Those have a long history, and Latin terms are rarely considered 'offensive'.

They're not terribly hard to spell either, compared to some alternatives.

Hey there guys.

So went out and asked some folks and generally the concensus I got was. Nobody is quite sure but heres suggestions.

Theelderscrotes, a popular user who has a lot of commentary on the subject in general and is part of the trans community had this to say:

"Just. call them. trans characters.
furry communities, and all porn communities really, are absolutely terrified of fessing up that they like trans bodies. they try to push awful terms on them, or make up fantastical excuses for them, or insist they only like the fictional concept of trans bodies, but they’re just kidding themselves. they’re trans. they should not need a term to other them because pornographers need to realize they can’t hide behind fictional concepts that make their interests ‘safe’, and realize real goddamn people exist with the very same bodies they desire
if cis people are going to lust after people like me, i’d prefer that they be straight up about it instead of pretending they’re into fictional, ‘impossible’ concepts
as for the people going ‘oh but what about people with vaginas and dicks and other configurations’, they still aren’t cis. however, this nice nb artist coined the term ‘altersex’ which sounds like a nice alternative."

An nonbinary artist named SpottyJaguar from the furry community here suggests we use the terms altersex.

Which is really easy to remember and use. Such as Altermale instead of Cboy and Alterfemale instead of dickgirl.

You can find their discussion on weasyl but basically the gist is

"
"Altersex" is a catch-all term consisting of alter, meant here as "different" or "another possibility," and sex, referring to physiological primary and secondary sex characteristics. Alterssx is meant to be used largely, but not exclusively, for fictional characters, describing body plans that are a mix of things, rather than the usually-found configurations.
Here, a body plan is just what type of parts you have or don't have. A penis, testicles, a vulva, a clitoris, developed breasts, etc.

Grammatically, it is an adjective, not a noun. A character simply is altersex, they are not an altersex (noun), and are not altersexed (strange past-tense verb). Being altersex covers setups like having breasts as well as a penis with testicles, or a penis in place of a clitoris on a vulva, having a vulva without having breasts, or (regardless of breasts) having a penis with testicles as well as a vulva. The latter means it can also act as an alternative for herm."

They also imply that you /shouldnt/ use this for making new terms but for functionality of tags purposes altermale and alterfemale are still better choices than cboy and dgirl.

It also unimplicates the intersex tag and allows for easier tagging overall.

My girlfriend judes commented that

In regards to andromorph gynomorph, "definitely an improvement, still kinda focused on genitals more than necessary

"intersex" would be fine for ambiguous genitalia, and personally i'm ok with "herm" for having both sets of fully functional genitalia but i know some people may not be. I feel like the terms they're suggesting will be a definite improvement if they aren't willing to just tag "trans man" or "trans woman" or similar
i mean i dunno how much traction would be there, but there are definitely ways to tell apart trans bodies and cis bodies with the genitalia swapped, and honestly i'm of the opinion that the second kind is prone to leading to the objectification and fetishization of trans people, but i don't imagine a site like this would want to take a stance like that. Like if I had to choose between an artist having their trans woman character called a dickgirl and an artist having their "dickgirl" called a trans woman then I know which one I'd go with, but I also don't see e621 feeling pressured to make that kind of statement"

And lastly a couple others I talked to are completely fine with using the terms andromorph and gynomorph. But most people seem to prefer either the trans* term or use altersex.

In the end i personally like Andromorph and Gynomorph as well as the Altersex label. As they all function extremely well and are easy to remember and use.

My two cents on the matter? I generally don't use the two terms myself, because I kinda feel they're objectional, but we're discussing fantasy images, and tagging them based on what we can see in the image via established terminology rather than what some other part of the internet insists it is.

Transsexual terms like "Transman" and "Transwoman" are all fine and dandy, except what if in this magical world of furries there are, say, characters who are born with both sets, or mixed sexual characteristics? I mean who's to say that when we shrug off reality for a fictional setting, that having both a penis and a vagina is statistically normal in 40% or more of individuals.

And we can't prove whether or not the character shown in an image was born with a penis and breasts or a vagina with a masculine body shape, or if they went through HRT/SRS unless that's specifically being shown or discussed in the image.

GDelscribe said:
In regards to andromorph gynomorph, "definitely an improvement, still kinda focused on genitals more than necessary

Does she understand how tags work here? We focus on what the body is, not what the person thinks. The genitals are an important part of the body.

I'm still against "Trans-" tags because it comes with the non-true implication of "Trans-sexual" where a person undergoes a sex change. I just can't see that term as meaning anything else. There's nothing wrong with a person who has undergone such a change, but as I have said before, it's very rare that you can tell from the picture alone that that's what happened.
The -Morph suffixed tags are pretty great, though. Somehow, despite the word morph literally meaning "To change," I can hear it and think "It just means the form."
Altersex tags are fairly straightforward, too. Alternate form for a female body--female who has a penis instead, alternate. I like the -morph ones better, though.

I personally really like the -morph tags as theyre succinct and fitting.

Also technically no. Because a person who hasnt gone through hormone therapy or a sex change but identifies as a different gender is still "trans"

But anyway I do like alter- and -morph a lot as theyre super functional.

GDelscribe said:
Also technically no. Because a person who hasnt gone through hormone therapy or a sex change but identifies as a different gender is still "trans"

I understand, but I can't shake the way I "know" the word.

GDelscribe said:
Theelderscrotes, a popular user who has a lot of commentary on the subject in general and is part of the trans community had this to say:

"Just. call them. trans characters.
furry communities, and all porn communities really, are absolutely terrified of fessing up that they like trans bodies. they try to push awful terms on them, or make up fantastical excuses for them, or insist they only like the fictional concept of trans bodies, but they’re just kidding themselves. they’re trans. they should not need a term to other them because pornographers need to realize they can’t hide behind fictional concepts that make their interests ‘safe’, and realize real goddamn people exist with the very same bodies they desire
if cis people are going to lust after people like me, i’d prefer that they be straight up about it instead of pretending they’re into fictional, ‘impossible’ concepts
as for the people going ‘oh but what about people with vaginas and dicks and other configurations’, they still aren’t cis. however, this nice nb artist coined the term ‘altersex’ which sounds like a nice alternative."

This person is successfully wrong on every single argument simply because they miss the entire point of the argument.
We don't tag the gender of a character, we tag the sex. Reality has no bearing on this because we still need to differentiate between characters who have it visible that they have undergone surgery to change their sex/body type, and characters who are "normal" in that sex/body type.
Nevermind that trans still implies that there is a difference between sex and gender of the person, and it'd be very much possible that a "transboy" identifies as male while having female genitalia, and I am not willing to open that can of worms in the tags.
That dude/gal/whatever doesn't understand what type of shit storm this would cause.

NotMeNotYou said:
This person is successfully wrong on every single argument simply because they miss the entire point of the argument.
We don't tag the gender of a character, we tag the sex. Reality has no bearing on this because we still need to differentiate between characters who have it visible that they have undergone surgery to change their sex/body type, and characters who are "normal" in that sex/body type.
Nevermind that trans still implies that there is a difference between sex and gender of the person, and it'd be very much possible that a "transboy" identifies as male while having female genitalia, and I am not willing to open that can of worms in the tags.
That dude/gal/whatever doesn't understand what type of shit storm this would cause.

Thats a fair difference to make. Which is why Im now proposing andromorph gynomorph or altersex.

Is this a better compromise?

NotMeNotYou said:
I don't think using trans* would help, because not only does this reference the identified gender of a character instead of the displayed sex, but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.
If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

What about "Phalladies"?

Forgive me if this was already suggested, but if you wish a simple change to remove slur tags, why not just change cuntboy and Dickgirl to Pussy-boy and Penis-girl? Hyphen not needed, but suggested. We already use penis and pussy for tagging purposes, not dick and cunt, and Herm pretty much works in a nutshell.

I didn't read the walls of text, but it feels to be the simplest solution that retains the specific TWYS rules, yet removes the slurs on both ends.

Siral_Exan said:
Forgive me if this was already suggested, but if you wish a simple change to remove slur tags, why not just change cuntboy and Dickgirl to Pussy-boy and Penis-girl? Hyphen not needed, but suggested. We already use penis and pussy for tagging purposes, not dick and cunt, and Herm pretty much works in a nutshell.

I didn't read the walls of text, but it feels to be the simplest solution that retains the specific TWYS rules, yet removes the slurs on both ends.

I guess but I think a lot of people are fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the words themselves.

Its penisgirl isnt too much better than dickgirl.

Its a step up but its not huge.

Person_with_culturally_defined_feminine_body_equipped_with_male_genitalia

Person_with_culturally_defined_masculine_body_equipped_with_female_genitalia

😐

GDelscribe said:
I guess but I think a lot of people are fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the words themselves.

Its penisgirl isnt too much better than dickgirl.

Its a step up but its not huge.

Well, we can either take a step back up, or some asshole will kick us back down...

However, that was not the only idea I had, just an OK one. Another was Character_Alias:*. it'd be used ONLY for characters whom artists want, so no random passerby being tagged with this if it's a filler person or unnamed character. It'd have to be brought up to the artist, and they have right to say the alias or to choose to not say one, AND it'd apply to all genders if needed, but only when it'd be a opposite gender (example given below).

An example: Orobas (from PurpleKecleon) had been tagged male, and PK wished her female, to which they had themselves become DNP, but not their copyright, when denied. Should we use this format, Orobas would also have Character_Alias:Female, if they would want her to be allowed on site. Vice-versa, Beleth, a female character, does not get said tag ever, at all; crossgender would apply if needed. (I'm purposely choosing this example, BTW, 'cause it's the quickest to say) All artists whom want an alias can ask an admin or make some ticket, and/or have enough proof (screenshots of an image w/ an artist saying), to have their character imply the tag, and it'd apply regardless of crossgender (Orobas being CG'd into female will still have Character_alias:female), so you can always find the character by searching Character_alias:*.

I'd wish to make a specific note, here, if this needs more detail: A, we allow species that aren't easily TWYS to occur, but we do ignore tagging sexual dimorphism to happen. This would also make Charrs or etc. to have the alias tag, but still not change their TWYS genders; B, with my above example, and artist can choose to follow the tagging rules or remove their art/image should they want to. They are never forced to be on this site, so my above tag is to mediate problems if an artist feels it needed. If an artist does not care, don't bother telling them to gender-alias their character. This solution is to give artists the ability to alias their character via background information, and also not fuck with TWYS.

One last statement: I don't know if character_alias or character_implied would fit more. This was a mental argument I had over a walk, so pick your poison on the tag's name.

Characters drawn with mismatched parts (breasts + penis, no breasts/pecs + vagina) are not automatically trans. This has been the issue the last several times this matter has been brought up.

I feel like bringing this up, because it's somewhat relevant and also super interesting.

Warning: contains photographs of human genitalia, presented for the purpose of illustration:

http://usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia

Clawdragons said:
I feel like bringing this up, because it's somewhat relevant and also super interesting.

Warning: contains photographs of human genitalia, presented for the purpose of illustration:

http://usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia

So what is it? I'd like more than a nudity warning if I'm going to go to a site for information.

Ko-san said:
So what is it? I'd like more than a nudity warning if I'm going to go to a site for information.

The tl;dr is that men are born with a hormone deficit that has them appear like girls until puberty hits. Once they reach puberty they will grow a functioning penis and balls, develop beards and live normal lives as men.
The nudity warning is because they have documentation of some nude kids to show the effects, with genitalia visible.

Ko-san said:
So what is it? I'd like more than a nudity warning if I'm going to go to a site for information.

I don't entirely understand what you want from me. I linked a site for information, so before you go there you want me to give you the information you'd find if you went there? Or, were you looking for something else from me?

If the former... Well, it seems a bit redundant. But NMNY gave you a good summary.

The second one describes gynecomastia, which is a condition wherein a male develops feminine-appearing breasts.

I am genuinely very confused, if all you wanted was a summary for some reason or if there was some other reason behind your question.

I am offended by the tag "ambiguous_gender" as it existence implies that gender is important

We should also remove tags such as cross_dressing and girly as these are social constructs. Also please remove the tags gay, straight and lesbian as these all imply the characters sexuality. For example I identify as straight but at the same time had sex with a non-male identifying person. Tagging me as lesbian would be incorrect and insulting (for some reason miss identifying a persons sexuality is insulting)

Clawdragons said:
I don't entirely understand what you want from me. I linked a site for information, so before you go there you want me to give you the information you'd find if you went there? Or, were you looking for something else from me?

If the former... Well, it seems a bit redundant. But NMNY gave you a good summary.

The second one describes gynecomastia, which is a condition wherein a male develops feminine-appearing breasts.

I am genuinely very confused, if all you wanted was a summary for some reason or if there was some other reason behind your question.

By telling me what gynecomastia was you provided what I sought. I warning for what the actual site was other than simply nudity. Though I thank you NotMeNotYou for the summary.

Basically, I don't want any unwanted surprises and I can deal with nudity and language. For instance, If I linked to Fetus in Fetu without mentioning the least bit what it was and merely told people there was some nudity, someone who didn't know what it was that followed the link may be traumatized, even mildly so, from the ordeal.

CuteCoughDeath said:
I am offended by the tag "ambiguous_gender" as it existence implies that gender is important

We should also remove tags such as cross_dressing and girly as these are social constructs. Also please remove the tags gay, straight and lesbian as these all imply the characters sexuality. For example I identify as straight but at the same time had sex with a non-male identifying person. Tagging me as lesbian would be incorrect and insulting (for some reason miss identifying a persons sexuality is insulting)

Gay, straight, and lesbian are gone. They have been replaced with male/male, male/female, and female/female. Regarding the rest, I'm not sure if you're serious or just trolling, especially since we don't tag gender, we tag sex. Which is important. Though gender is important for self-identification as well.

Ko-san said:
Regarding the rest, I'm not sure if you're serious or just trolling

Pretty sure she's making a joke. I wouldn't exactly call it trolling.

Ko-san said:
By telling me what gynecomastia was you provided what I sought.

I generally try to warn people if there's questionable content in something I'm linking, though I would not have thought to provide any warnings for fetus in fetu because that seems pretty tame to me (unless there were, say, surgery images, which I'd provide a warning for that too.

Ratte said:
Characters drawn with mismatched parts (breasts + penis, no breasts/pecs + vagina) are not automatically trans. This has been the issue the last several times this matter has been brought up.

Regardless of this Dickgirl and Cuntboy are outright slurs. Regardless of personal views on the matter.

We can argue til were blue in the face on the argument of whether characters are trans etc or not. Clearly im not going to win anything on that front but there is a clear and present problem here that needs to be adressed and something that people need to stop ignoring and acting like a its a non issue.

What im suggesting is alternatives to that set of tags.

Gynomorph and Andromorph have been recieved pretty positively. Altersex seems to go over well with people.

Furthermore regardless of that fact in the end it is still /less insulting/ and problematic to call a character trans based on logical deduction rather than intentionally dancing around the topic to continue using slurs.

Since everyone is universally opposed to using trans* tags in one way or another I am suggesting alternative tags.

We no longer use terms like gay or lesbian on the site and they arent offensive to 90% of people. We use male/male female/female now.

This isnt any different.

Im aware intersex and herm characters exist. I personally have a lot of intersexed or hermaphrodite characters as well as several trans characters in varying stages of transition.

Its gotten to the point where I cant upload anything here without fear of someone using tags like dgirl/cboy etc ans admittedly half the time incorrectly I might add.

The nature of the policies here on the matter have scared away tons of artists and uploaders alike.

So theres something clearly wrong.

Also Siral Exan has an extremely good idea as well thats worth considering maybe?

And one more last thing.

If these characters arent Trans* in any way why arent they called breasted_boys or flat_chested girls?

Theyre called cBOY and dGIRL. Its literally in the name that it represents trans characters. These are names the porn industry uses to refer to "transexuals" when not calling them tranny or shemale or some other awful thing.

Please. Look at the situation and be reasonable.

GDelscribe said:
We no longer use terms like gay or lesbian on the site and they arent offensive to 90% of people. We use male/male female/female now.

This isnt any different.

That was because straight, gay and lesbian resulted in a lot of mistaggings. The change to female/female, male/female and male/male had nothing at all to do with slurs or offense and had everything to do with clarifying how the tags were supposed to be used.

Clawdragons said:
That was because straight, gay and lesbian resulted in a lot of mistaggings. The change to female/female, male/female and male/male had nothing at all to do with slurs or offense and had everything to do with clarifying how the tags were supposed to be used.

Not arguing at all but Im curious how that misstagging was happening. I mean the tags are functionally identical.

GDelscribe said:
Not arguing at all but Im curious how that misstagging was happening. I mean the tags are functionally identical.

People would tag solo images with the tags. The idea being that a solo male picture is gay (with the assumption that the viewer is male), while a solo female picture would be tagged as straight (same assumption). Also the tags were sometimes used for characters that stated their orientation, rather than there being any sexual interaction being depicted.

The new names for the tags make their purpose much more intuitive, resulting in fewer mistags.

GDelscribe said:
If these characters arent Trans* in any way why arent they called breasted_boys or flat_chested girls?

ಠ_ಠ "section" DText... for some reason, any post i come across that happens to be overly lengthy has this in the quote but otherwise it fails to work properly. not sure if it's an issue on my end or something else.

on topic: huh, could've sworn there was a flat_chested_female (or something similar) tag. as for the "breasted_boys" idea...that sounds stupid. sounds more like what someone would say when teasing a person or something.

Siral_Exan said:
One last statement: I don't know if character_alias or character_implied would fit more. This was a mental argument I had over a walk, so pick your poison on the tag's name.

It looks like an implication to me, not an alias. Could definitely be explained more clearly though, so I might have misunderstood it.

treos said:
ಠ_ಠ "section" DText... for some reason, any post i come across that happens to be overly lengthy has this in the quote but otherwise it fails to work properly. not sure if it's an issue on my end or something else.

on topic: huh, could've sworn there was a flat_chested_female (or something similar) tag. as for the "breasted_boys" idea...that sounds stupid. sounds more like what someone would say when teasing a person or something.

Fair enough but The point makes sense though right?

Breastboy does sound awful though doesnt it yeah? Thats what cboy and dgirl sounds like to us. Its stupid and arbitrary.

As to your other comment. I get that too! But only on desktop. Doesnt seem to happen when Im on mobile tho?

GDelscribe said:
Fair enough but The point makes sense though right?

Breastboy does sound awful though doesnt it yeah? Thats what cboy and dgirl sounds like to us. Its stupid and arbitrary.

As to your other comment. I get that too! But only on desktop. Doesnt seem to happen when Im on mobile tho?

Breastboy sounds like a superhero name. Saves the town by smashing villains with prehensile size changing boobs.

Chaser said:
Breastboy sounds like a superhero name. Saves the town by smashing villains with prehensile size changing boobs.

Fund it.

Ko-san said:
Wut?

You mean like someone who is born male, gets a sex change but still identifies as male?

I knew a guy who was born a guy but had his penis turned into a vagina and still identified as a guy, a cis guy with a vagina. His mangina.

PhallusFantasy said:
I knew a guy who was born a guy but had his penis turned into a vagina and still identified as a guy, a cis guy with a vagina. His mangina.

heh, funny...guess the word, mangina, has multiple meanings now.

PhallusFantasy said:
I knew a guy who was born a guy but had his penis turned into a vagina and still identified as a guy, a cis guy with a vagina. His mangina.

I know someone (though we had a bit of an unfortunate falling-out) who was born, biologically, female, but with some issues with her genitals that make her appear male. She was raised as a male, and eventually transitioned to female (thus in some sense she was a female-to-female transgender individual).

I also know of a somewhat famous case where someone's genitals were injured during, I believe, a botched circumcision, so they were surgically altered to appear female, and yet always still identified as a male.

Not very common, but interesting cases like this do exist.

So. Anyway back on topic. Are there any legitimate reasons other than "were used to them" not to change the tags.

Especially when there are other options that are presented which are better.

GDelscribe said:
So. Anyway back on topic. Are there any legitimate reasons other than "were used to them" not to change the tags.

Especially when there are other options that are presented which are better.

Characters drawn with mismatched parts (breasts + penis, no breasts/pecs + vagina) are not automatically trans. This has been the issue the last several times this matter has been brought up.

Ontologically, 'we are used to them' is actually a fairly strong argument. If people don't understand the tags quickly, then they are bad tags.

However, I personally think that titanmelon's proposed ontology is an improvement on what we've got; consistent and simple. I think if they could manage to restrain themselves from being so verbose, its chances of actually being implemented would improve a lot.

I think Ratte's latest reiteration is because you haven't been very clear on precisely what change we should make. I interpreted you as supporting Titanmelon's proposal, but you mix a bunch of other issues in there too which sabotages your case.

Well, I still think the minor altering to penisgirl/pussyboy would work relatively well, if we wish to remove derogatories.

I would continue with my character_alias:, but I recently "realized" that the majority of the artists will come from sites that let you purposely have tags, or don't put them, because it's artist choice (they can choose what tags are on a post). As such, we can deal with assholes who do the no ifs, ands, or buts, for tagging their character, and character_alias would not help there, and times when artists/COs cannot be contacted. This means the Character_alias tag would have to be maintained by the public over the artist, even if we imply it with a character.

In shorthand for Character_alias: : the tag would not work because posters have fucked over tags to get X, or avoid X, on other sites and have tried bringing that here; and making a completely new tag that has vague meanings to the artist and their audience wouldn't help the character. The public would have to maintain it, because both the Character_Alias tag may be forgotten, or it could be an forgotten character name / identical character.

Ratte said:

Thank you for completely ignoring every point ive made outright.

As stated earlier. If these characters are not trans or otherwise why are they not simply called flat chested female or male with breasts.

THAT ASIDE, since you clearly dont want to discuss the issue. Again im reiterating the suggested tags.

Lets pretend that its not an issue at all.

Gynomorph and Andromorph work perfectly fine. Ive gotten support for those tags.

Whats the issue with changing to those tags.

savageorange said:
Ontologically, 'we are used to them' is actually a fairly strong argument. If people don't understand the tags quickly, then they are bad tags.

However, I personally think that titanmelon's proposed ontology is an improvement on what we've got; consistent and simple. I think if they could manage to restrain themselves from being so verbose, its chances of actually being implemented would improve a lot.

I think Ratte's latest reiteration is because you haven't been very clear on precisely what change we should make. I interpreted you as supporting Titanmelon's proposal, but you mix a bunch of other issues in there too which sabotages your case.

Yeah. Im just frustrated because the issue is getting danced around when there shouldnt be an argument about it to begin with??

Weve offered alternative tags. I agree with the proposal...

But it seems theres a lack of listening going on and I feel like Im talking at a brick wall.

My statement. If you all need a clear one.

Dickgirl should change to Gynomorph and Cboy change to Andromorph.

Theyre generally innoffensive. They dont cause issues with people who are unwilling to call the characters trans. They dont cause tag issues cause theyre simple. Theyre short singe word tags with utilitarian purpose.

If there is something Im missing then please tell me.

GDelscribe said:
Thank you for completely ignoring every point ive made outright.

As stated earlier. If these characters are not trans or otherwise why are they not simply called flat chested female or male with breasts.

THAT ASIDE, since you clearly dont want to discuss the issue. Again im reiterating the suggested tags.

Lets pretend that its not an issue at all.

Gynomorph and Andromorph work perfectly fine. Ive gotten support for those tags.

Whats the issue with changing to those tags.

Because this has been done to death and the result has been the same.

We cannot judge intent, only portrayal. Character canon is irrelevant when tagging, only the character's physical appearance matters. If people want to see males, they want to see typical males. If people want to see females, they want to see typical females. Flat chested is not the same as having pecs just like having breasts is not the same as having manboobs.

I would not mind andromorph and gynomorph provided tags are properly aliased as not to impede searches.

Ultimately tagging is not dependent on your feelings, only the image and what it shows.

Ratte said:
Because this has been done to death and the result has been the same.

We cannot judge intent, only portrayal. Character canon is irrelevant when tagging, only the character's physical appearance matters. If people want to see males, they want to see typical males. If people want to see females, they want to see typical females. Flat chested is not the same as having pecs just like having breasts is not the same as having manboobs.

I would not mind andromorph and gynomorph provided tags are properly aliased as not to impede searches.

Ultimately tagging is not dependent on your feelings, only the image and what it shows.

Then lets change it to Andromorph and Gynomorph.

Weve had more positive than negative. And theyre not harmful.

Aliasing shouldnt be hard. People can keep searching for it as they have. But the word would be replaced when tagging the same way foreskin is replaced with uncut (which should be the other way round I must add but. Thats a different can of worms for a different time.)

Ratte said:

Characters drawn with mismatched parts (breasts + penis, no breasts/pecs + vagina) are not automatically trans. This has been the issue the last several times this matter has been brought up.

That's why we've suggested alternate tags, like Andromorph and Gynomorph. I'm not seeing any negative responses to those two tags.