Objectifying is off the table as an objection here. As Furrin Gok implied, objectification is exactly the point of tags -- not only obviously sexual tags but >= 99% of all tags.
eg. Gynomorph is no less objectifying than dickgirl is no less objectifying than male is no less objectifying than female. Because we're not writing about it, we're tagging it -- classifying it as an object of X type.

So this IS another Kecleon argument (and Bulletsoup by theme): you want the tags to meet your standards, be it for your images or otherwise... When I PM'd Purple Kecleon about why they're on the DNP list, they said they didn't want to be offended because people may bring their artwork thoughts from here, to them or other off-sites; and they couldn't think of a proper solution based off the TWYS rules...

So, you shouldn't be posting here if you want the tags in your favor, it's not gonna be a fight you'll just "win". However, there are other reasons: you cannot hide another person's comments, even after downvoting; your posts (not just images), if they fall under a rule saying it needs to be deleted, will be deleted regardless of your say. For instance, do not repost deleted content, and there is a minimum site qualify, and no tracing of another person's work without giving said person credit; finally, breaking these rules can/will lead to punishment. The rules have always fucked individuals in favor of maintaining this site generally, and I'm willing to bet all of the "often on" have to wonder if they broke a rule back then, and now.

However, if you think your solution will work, and wish to continue posting here, then go through the DNP list, find out why the artist (messaging them is the hard part) is DNP, and if it is for their intersex/mislabeled characters, talk to them and try to find a solution that everyone likes. If this is the case, and you are thinking with you and the public in mind, then it's just you and some of the site, against the other part of the site. Learn from them, get their opinions on the matter, talk to admins personally for good tag ideas; this forum post won't make progress because you'll all be at a standstill with nothing to change other than how you phrase your logic.

It's up to you on whether or not you stay, but the site has not once forced a site to be on here, nor that they couldn't leave or make themselves DNP. I'd suggest you do more research now, it'd be faster than waiting on everyone to come to an agreement.

GDelscribe said:
Yeah they are. The problem with cboy and dgirl extends beyond just the rude words that make up them.

Vagentleman sounds cute on a surface level but its still just as objectifying demeaning and etc.

savageorange said:
Objectifying is off the table as an objection here. As Furrin Gok implied, objectification is exactly the point of tags -- not only obviously sexual tags but >= 99% of all tags.
eg. Gynomorph is no less objectifying than dickgirl is no less objectifying than male is no less objectifying than female. Because we're not writing about it, we're tagging it -- classifying it as an object of X type.

Thank you, Savage.
We tag what we see, which means at its very core, we objectify everything. When tagging, the point is to mark what the object is, not what the thoughts are. If your only argument is that the term is objectifying, then you're at the same time agreeing it's a perfectly fine tag to use, because that's the point of it.

This is the second time now youve essentially implied that I should remove my art/leave the site.

Actually, it was you who said that people have left the site over these things. Looking back, I definitely didn't put it in good wording, but I'm not really sure how I can even now.
We objectify things because when somebody searches for something, they want to find things that match their terms. "Man with a pussy" is the kind of thing people like to look for, so we tag it. It's no different than our tagging of "Big Breasts" or "multi cock."

Andromorph is not a good tag simply because it is extremely redundant. Every picture in e621 that isn't of a feral, alien, or human would have to have it, regardless of depicted sex.

After all, Andromorph means "man-shape", and this site is for anthropomorphic art, aka "man-shaped" art.

Thirtyeight said:
Andromorph is not a good tag simply because it is extremely redundant. Every picture in e621 that isn't of a feral, alien, or human would have to have it, regardless of depicted sex.

After all, Andromorph means "man-shape", and this site is for anthropomorphic art, aka "man-shaped" art.

Thats again, entirely missing the point of the tags intentionally.

Fair enough, what was the point of the tag again?

Not gonna lie, I didn't read through this entire thread, just some of the earlier and latest posts. Still going to comment though, so sorry in advance if any of this has already been said.

These suggested "andromorph" and "gynomorph" tags are terrible. They might technically function in the same way that any random consistent words as a category tag might function... but they're going to harm usability for basically anyone familiar with common terminology for those categories. Not to mention they're ugly sounding terms which, given their objective of replacing terms that are considered offensive to some people, seems counterproductive.

Going to be blunt here: The terms "Dickgirl" and "Cuntboy" don't necessarily belong to trans people - there are tons and tons of furry character owners out there who happily or even proudly refer to and identify their characters using those terms, and there are tons and tons of furry characters out there who canonically were born into their non-binary sex and have nothing to do with anything trans: Their sex is a natural state for them. This is all possible because this is all fantasy - these are fictional characters living in any number of fictional worlds. I don't really think it's feasible to try to force them to use brand-new terminology that you find non-offensive, especially when the current terms are already so established. (As a sidenote, this is also why "transgirl" and "transboy" are inappropriate... but I assume that since people aren't talking about that anymore, that's already been covered.)

Not to mention that terms like "Andromorph" and "Gynomorph" are plenty ugly sounding enough to cause offense to any number of people who won't want their characters referred to by terms like that: I guarantee you we'd see complaints from character owners over it in the same way we occasionally see character owners complain about the current intersex terms. So in the end, changing the terms to those solves no issues - we just trade one offended group for another offended group, except we've also harmed usability in the process. That's a pretty terrible trade-off to make.

"Vagentleman" and "Phallady" also strike me as generally pointless - literally the same exact meaning and structure as the current terms, except we're trying to censor our sexually-explicit language on a site hosting hardcore porn... Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It is very true that "cuntboy" in particular is a bit out-there explicitly, particularly(only?) due to the word "cunt" generally being viewed as more-vulgar in North America than it is in other english-speaking areas... but really at this point I don't think trying to make a change to "pussyboy" or any other version of such is likely to improve much of anything for anyone. Basically the only thing that "vagentleman" and "phallady" have going for them is a dash of comedy added to the same terms we were already using, and I don't think that's worth the confusion they'll cause.

In the end, sites like e621 tend to adopt design to serve their main audience; I think your best bet if you want to get new terms accepted is to try to campaign from the other end by targeting that audience - try to get the average user base of character owners and artists on sites like FA and IB to adopt new terms. If they catch on in the general community and become the recognizable terms that people actually want to use (and therefore become actually useful) then they're likely to show up as tags on sites like e621 afterward.

Crispix said:
stuff

I'm trying to back out of this conversation a bit because it's going nowhere but I'm going to clear up a misunderstanding. The objection to cuntboy isn't that "cunt" is vulgar, but rather that the term overall is a slur.

To understand that argument, think about it like this... Imagine this discussion was about skin color. White humans were tagged as Caucasian, and black characters were tagged as Negroid.

The problem isn't that it's a vulgar word, but it would be taken as a slur.

Stepping back out now.

Anything can be and will be taken as a slur. That's not reason enough to change useful tags.

This is going to be a loooooong post, mostly also replying to statements I disagree with or this would be twice as long. Read if you want to, not expecting too many replies to my replies, but hopefully it will bring some alternate viewpoints. Feel free to disagree.

As perviously mentioned I'm not going to be happy with any morph/semi/etc terms. As pointed out again and again by different people they have the fatal flaw of being inherently ambiguous, which is the whole point of such words. They usually describe something in between two extremes. While they work great for single properties or lumping a large group together, they very quickly loose their usefulness for describing single instances as the number of described properties increase. That is the case when describing the sex of a single character which has both primary and various secondary sex characteristics.

The problem isn't that people can't learn that "andro" means "male" and "gyno" means "female". We might as well use "male shape" and ”female shape" and have the same problems. Using another language (even latin) won't make a difference (as pointed out earlier), that is just used to sugarcoat the word (or if used incorrectly, to hide or change its true meaning).

Personally I find the terms phallady and gentlewoman a bit silly to be used as formal tags for a sex but they would maybe work. However since they're fabricated words they are slightly less natural to understand and aren't very descriptive, being a non-native english speaker I also had to think a bit harder to cause a proper "word-to-object” association, but that's maybe beside the point. The worst of the two is "gentlewoman", since it would be used to describe what is often a male both in body shape and often gender, but sounds female, hence might cause unnecessary objections from character owners (where gender is important, why brought up). They will probably cause quite a stir and confusion when introduced but on the other hand could pass quickly.

As a note I wrote this before @Crispix made their latest post so I already might have covered those topics slightly, just want to say I mostly agree.

cuntboy implies intersex, dickgirl implies intersex

Why not alias them to intersex_vagina and intersex_penis?

intersex_male could be the cuntboy and intersex_female could be the dickgirl, but tagging the genitals is probably better. A visible vagina or penis would be necessary to use the tags, and that complies with what the dickgirl and cuntboy wiki pages already say (should not be tagged on rating:safe posts).

The only remaining problem is that long tags would be needed to replace current tags, such as cuntboy/male becoming intersex_vagina/male and dickgirl/dickgirl becoming intersex_penis/intersex_penis. Long unwieldy tags are unfortunate but we can live with it and you can still type in cuntboy and dickgirl to get what you want.

My solution is not silly like phallady and vagentleman, gets rid of the slurs, leaves minimal confusion about wtf is being tagged, moves the tags slightly away from gender and towards the genitals as required, and directly conforms to what the wiki already says about the cuntboy and dickgirl tags.

@Chessax: "gentlewoman" is actually "vagentleman"

What about herms? It seems to me that messes up the intersex_[genitals] thing a fair bit.

Clawdragons said:
What about herms? It seems to me that messes up the intersex_[genitals] thing a fair bit.

A character with both parts would be tagged herm or maleherm instead of intersex_[genitals].

Lance_Armstrong said:
cuntboy implies intersex, dickgirl implies intersex

Why not alias them to intersex_vagina and intersex_penis?

intersex_male could be the cuntboy and intersex_female could be the dickgirl, but tagging the genitals is probably better. A visible vagina or penis would be necessary to use the tags, and that complies with what the dickgirl and cuntboy wiki pages already say (should not be tagged on rating:safe posts).

The only remaining problem is that long tags would be needed to replace current tags, such as cuntboy/male becoming intersex_vagina/male and dickgirl/dickgirl becoming intersex_penis/intersex_penis. Long unwieldy tags are unfortunate but we can live with it and you can still type in cuntboy and dickgirl to get what you want.

My solution is not silly like phallady and vagentleman, gets rid of the slurs, leaves minimal confusion about wtf is being tagged, moves the tags slightly away from gender and towards the genitals as required, and directly conforms to what the wiki already says about the cuntboy and dickgirl tags.

@Chessax: "gentlewoman" is actually "vagentleman"

I dont see any issue with this personally as technically these characters do fall under the "third sex" or intersex/nb category as it is.

There was a time when the fandom called these characters herm anyway so its concievable.

If needed you could always shorten them to intermale and interfemale as a portmanteau but this does seem to be more functional than what was suggested earlier seeing as people are apparently confused by terms like andro/gyno. So. Im all for yhis.

Ive been spending all day trying to come up with or find some word for this actually.

Hopefully we can work something out that will be mutually beneficial for everyone involved.

Im also going to be doing some more personal research on this to make sure we get the best possible most useful tags without being denigrating to anyone.

Like at this point Id be fine with using Kathey and Phuyi (Third sex male and female respectfully in thai )

I dunno. There has to be a compromise out there somewhere.

i just want to throw out there that we have had long as fuck tags before, like character_from_animated_feature_film (which i'm still miffed about being determined invalid)

randomhajile said:
i just want to throw out there that we have had long as fuck tags before, like character_from_animated_feature_film (which i'm still miffed about being determined invalid)

Thats true. A two word tag isnt a new concept nor is it too outlandish to believe.

Also other suggestions. If wed be willing to use scifi tags or fantasy tags since these are fantasy characters there is always Oson and Oshe, Oson is Girl with balls and Oshe is is Guy with Vagina/vulva so. Theres that.

How do people feel about a tag like that?

Dickgirl becomes Oson,
Cboy becomes Oshe.

Oppinions?

GDelscribe said:
Dickgirl becomes Oson,
Cboy becomes Oshe.

Oppinions?

There's a reason I came up with intersex_vagina and intersex_penis. They are at least a bit intuitive. cuntboy and dickgirl already imply intersex, and intersex is a widely known tag. I think we all know where this oson and oshe suggestion is going.

randomhajile said:
i just want to throw out there that we have had long as fuck tags before, like character_from_animated_feature_film (which i'm still miffed about being determined invalid)

Or predator/prey_relations (now just predator/prey)

Lance_Armstrong said:
There's a reason I came up with intersex_vagina and intersex_penis. They are at least a bit intuitive. cuntboy and dickgirl already imply intersex, and intersex is a widely known tag. I think we all know where this oson and oshe suggestion is going.

Yeah Im more than fine with intersex_* I was just suggesting something really short.

Im not sure what you mean by "where this suggestion is going" tho sorry? (No im genuinely curious I have no malice or ill intent theyre terms Ive personally used for years in my writing and theyre pretty simple and easy to remember basically just remember [son] for balls and [she] for vag] )

I know its crude but its simple and effective. Thats all. Hope that doesn't come off as too conceited.

But anyway I do like your suggestion just was providing a quick and dirty one word alternate.

The o part comes from a play on the word Ovum because it was originally used to describe a hybrid species that laid eggs and the characters who had the balls were also the ones with the breasts and vice versa. It was basically literally the same as were implying here. Regular bodies but the downstairs are swapped.

@Chessax; @Lance_Armstrong; @Granberia; @All:

In response to the suggestions about tagging physical features directly as a tag, here they are in one place, with a further idea from me based on all 3:

1. Granberia: https://e621.net/forum/show/162619

2. Chessax: https://e621.net/forum/show/196649

male:   male_bodied_with_penis /   male
          female: female_bodied_with_pussy / female
         cuntboy:   male_bodied_with_pussy/vagina
        dickgirl: female_bodied_with_penis
            herm: female_bodied_herm
        maleherm:   male_bodied_herm
ambiguous_gender: ambiguous_sex

3. Lance Armstrong: https://e621.net/forum/show/197200

Combined suggestion:

Edit: changed intersex -> altersex

If the order is standardized [read:alphabetical order], then it would be easy to have unique aliases as shortcuts,

Format: [sex meta identifier]_[primary sex characteristics]_[secondary sex characteristics]

See forum #forum #197261 for notes about the above,

and forum #197271 for observations/additions by @Ko-san

Notes:

1. The above tags are the maximum possible combinations for their respective sex tags i.e

• According to TWYS, a character with a 'feminine' body shape and a vagina, but no visible breasts can still be tagged with female
• female_vagina can still imply female,
• female_breasts can still imply female,
• But any character tagged with female_vagina_breasts is unconditionally female

This extends to all the other sex tags, but the herm tags are stricter, since TWYS requires both a penis and vagina to be present to get the herm tag (tmk)

2. I made the following changes, to keep each sex characteristic tag unique;

• balls -> testicles, conflicts with breasts
• pussy -> vagina, conflicts with penis

3. Like Lance mentioned, if the above system is used, then implications and aliases still function as intended, maybe even more easily since the prefixes are consistent ([intersex_*], [herm_*] etc)

-

As an additional bonus, this system allows us to identify multiple characters based on their physical characteristics i.e A post tagged with:

• male_penis
• herm_penis_vagina

Could only describe 2 separate characters (unless transformation and character sheets are taken into account)
-
Characters with the same sex characteristics can't be identified separately tmk though, i.e

• male_penis
• male_penis

-
For additional info, check out forum #197258, which is a reply based on parasprite's concerns about a conjunctive tagging system mentioned here

This would be very easy and deal with a lot of issues.

It would format the sex system to something more like an index system/codebase index and thats teally really easy for me to remember.

I support all of your and lances suggestions wholeheartedly whichever is more useful.

titanmelon said:
Notes:

1. The above tags are the maximum possible combinations for their respective sex tags i.e

• According to TWYS, a character with a 'feminine' body shape and a vagina, but no visible breasts can still be tagged with female
• female_vagina can still imply female,
• female_breasts can still imply female,
• But any character tagged with female_vagina_breasts is unconditionally female

This extends to all the other sex tags, but the herm tags are stricter, since TWYS requires both a penis and vagina to be present to get the herm tag (tmk)

2. I made the following changes, to keep each sex characteristic tag unique;

• balls -> testicles, conflicts with breasts
• pussy -> vagina, conflicts with penis

3. Like Lance mentioned, if the above system is used, then implications and aliases still function as intended, maybe even more easily since the prefixes are consistent ([intersex_*], [herm_*] etc)

-

As an additional bonus, this system allows us to identify multiple characters based on their physical characteristics i.e A post tagged with:

• male_penis
• herm_penis_vagina

Could only describe 2 separate characters (unless transformation and character sheets are taken into account)
-
Characters with the same sex characteristics can't be identified separately tmk though, i.e

• male_penis
• male_penis

-
For additional info, check out forum #197258, which is a reply based on parasprite's concerns about a conjunctive tagging system mentioned here

Doing these simply as general tags would easily make an over abundance of tags that wouldn't be used very often and would take a lot of management to keep up with from adding them to existing pictures, creating the right implications, and keeping up with newly added pics. Having:
Female
Female_vagina
Female_breasts
female_pussy_breast
Female_penis
Female_breasts_penis

As a small sample. Now, what you are suggesting does sound similar to an existing, and successful, tagging system in place from one such e-hentai/exhentai. There they, like we do for copyrights and artists, also subcategorize tags under male and female. This would change tags to female:pussy and male:penis or female:penis. Now they also have general tags categorized by sex but doing that would take an astronomical overhaul. But maybe we could just leave genitals to being subcategorized with "female:" subs being a separate color from "male:" subs. Female, male, herm, and intersex themselves would remain general tags though.

For example this would look like
post #793346

Artist:Nezumi
Species:Cyclops
Female:breasts, penis
General:intersex, etc

something more complicated would be
post #909137

Artist:pdxyz
Species:teletubby
male:penis, balls
Female:pussy, breasts
General:male, female, etc

Mm. Thats definitely a good example of the system working. And working quite well.

I think thats all the more reason to pursue it then because if it works somehwre else its worth a try here.

Just keep the current tags, I don't see why people are getting so offended over it

ShardTheWolf said:
Just keep the current tags, I don't see why people are getting so offended over it

... again. It doesnt matter if you personally dont have an issue with it because there are many many people who do.

Im putting a vote in for the intersex_* suggestions because theyre already precedent on the site.

GDelscribe said:
... again. It doesnt matter if you personally dont have an issue with it because there are many many people who do.

yay, generation snowflake!

-_- yeah, that's the most relevant thing i could think of right offhand for this topic and it is sounds like a fitting response to that.

treos said:
yay, generation snowflake!

-_- yeah, that's the most relevant thing i could think of right offhand for this topic and it is sounds like a fitting response to that.

When the amount of people who care outweigh the amount of people who genuinely dont care or think its a non issue its time to start looking at a problem.

You can pretend all you want that the issues arent there and stay in your "oh no the evil pc are coming to steal my freedums" but the fact is you and I arent in a bubble. Were in a community.

E621 is a website that aims to be an archive of art with as much as possible with as much accuracy as possible.

This, like any other community is a place for open discussion on topics that may be uncomfortable to some people as its been proving.

But guess what. Its not 9 years ago when e6 started. Its 2016.

Thats over a decade to grow up and Guess what e6 has taken steps to getting there but in a lot of ways is still no different.

And as long as we have people afraid of something as simple as not using a slur. Imagine that being so self indulgent that you cant even admit that theres something wrong because of social ignorance.

In the end we need people to stay on topic. Stay focused and contribute to the discussion and if your best comment is "yay generation snowflake" its better not to at all because it provides 0 to the conversation.

What we are proposing is a system Change which is more inclusive, community decided and harmless. Something that will be more palettable to the large volume of trans artists and uploaders in the community and as well as overall be as functional as we can get.

Theres no reason to fear peogress. Thats all this is. This is moving forward into a new era and taking the first baby steps towards it.

We cant continue to claim to be an inclusive community and then specifically act exclusatory.

Tl;dr

How does that contribute to the discussion at all?

Is it so had that people dont wanna use slurs?

guys it's the current year

GDelscribe said:
When the amount of people who care outweigh the amount of people who genuinely dont care or think its a non issue its time to start looking at a problem.

You can pretend all you want that the issues arent there and stay in your "oh no the evil pc are coming to steal my freedums" but the fact is you and I arent in a bubble. Were in a community.

E621 is a website that aims to be an archive of art with as much as possible with as much accuracy as possible.

This, like any other community is a place for open discussion on topics that may be uncomfortable to some people as its been proving.

But guess what. Its not 9 years ago when e6 started. Its 2016.

Thats over a decade to grow up and Guess what e6 has taken steps to getting there but in a lot of ways is still no different.

And as long as we have people afraid of something as simple as not using a slur. Imagine that being so self indulgent that you cant even admit that theres something wrong because of social ignorance.

In the end we need people to stay on topic. Stay focused and contribute to the discussion and if your best comment is "yay generation snowflake" its better not to at all because it provides 0 to the conversation.

What we are proposing is a system Change which is more inclusive, community decided and harmless. Something that will be more palettable to the large volume of trans artists and uploaders in the community and as well as overall be as functional as we can get.

Theres no reason to fear peogress. Thats all this is. This is moving forward into a new era and taking the first baby steps towards it.

We cant continue to claim to be an inclusive community and then specifically act exclusatory.

Tl;dr

How does that contribute to the discussion at all?

Is it so had that people dont wanna use slurs?

Without reading more than the first little bit, there are far less people who care. Thing is people who really don't care aren't going to go out of their way to say so, at least not past a snide remark/joke or linking to other topics where this has been discussed to death. Really the only reason I'm here is because I ain't got shit else to do half the time. Besides, any true way to make progress is to realise the difference between reality and fiction, including the internet, and to understand that people are all just another species of animal that are roughly 99.8% the same to one another and getting offended over every little thing isn't going to help, it's just going to annoy people.

GDelscribe said:
In the end we need people to stay on topic. Stay focused and contribute to the discussion and if your best comment is "yay generation snowflake" its better not to at all because it provides 0 to the conversation.

I think you should probably take your own advice and stop posting.
You have systematically sabotaged your own case in this topic through repeated emotional manipulation, sweeping generalizations, and caricaturing those you disagree with. You've prompted some thought here, but I wish *you* would think.

savageorange said:
I think you should probably take your own advice and stop posting.
You have systematically sabotaged your own case in this topic through repeated emotional manipulation, sweeping generalizations, and caricaturing those you disagree with. You've prompted some thought here, but I wish *you* would think.

Can you explain to me what Im supposed to do to get a point across? Otherwise? Im doing my best here.

I am thinking. Im trying.

All Im looking for is something to change to something less harmful.

Im at my wits end and Im tired.

GDelscribe said:
stuff

the reason i brought up "generation snowflake" was because i'm sick of hearing about places change so as to protect peoples emotions and cater to the whims of the overly sensitive.

RHEI-RAT, from what i understand of it, wanted e621 to do away with it's voting and/or comment section so as to protect peoples emotions.

your wanting to change tags away from something that works just fine to something else for pretty much the same reason. so people won't get offended, thus protecting their emotions.

why not ban all homosexual and underage cub porn here so as to not offend russia while we're at it? (please don't)

GDelscribe said:
Can you explain to me what Im supposed to do to get a point across? Otherwise? Im doing my best here.

I am thinking. Im trying.

All Im looking for is something to change to something less harmful.

Im at my wits end and Im tired.

But that's just it. The words were never harmful. Words cannot in and of themselves cause harm. Words do not decide how inclusive a place is, people do.

People choose to take offense to things. And don't give me that "you aren't trans, you don't understand" business. Do you really think trans people appreciate you talking for them? Deciding that they are too weak to handle vulgar words? That's awfully transphobic, don't you think?

I'm going to lay my cards on the table. I don't care what words we use for males with female reproductive systems or vice versa. What gets my proverbial goat is people deciding that because something bugs them, stuff has to change. Its selfish, narcissistic, and the worst part is that people think they are doing a good thing. We need to grow out of thinking we know whats best for other people.

Thirtyeight said:
But that's just it. The words were never harmful. Words cannot in and of themselves cause harm. Words do not decide how inclusive a place is, people do.

People choose to take offense to things. And don't give me that "you aren't trans, you don't understand" business. Do you really think trans people appreciate you talking for them? Deciding that they are too weak to handle vulgar words? That's awfully transphobic, don't you think?

I'm going to lay my cards on the table. I don't care what words we use for males with female reproductive systems or vice versa. What gets my proverbial goat is people deciding that because something bugs them, stuff has to change. Its selfish, narcissistic, and the worst part is that people think they are doing a good thing. We need to grow out of thinking we know whats best for other people.

if you had read this thread, you would have seen that there has already been multiple trans people telling that these words are offensive so its not just one person talking for all trans people.

and this is not about "telling that trans people cannot handle vulgar words". this is about trans people telling that these words are slurs and would be better if they were replaced with something that is not offensive.

this is not just about some individual deciding that something is offensive. cuntboy and dickgirl are actual offensive slurs that are actually used as slurs against trans people in real life.

Fuck this PC shit. Fuck everyone's opinions. And fuck sensitivity.
The world just couldn't fucking resist the tide of bullshit thumb sucking tumblrfags. People wanna get a so-called "sex change"? Fine. But don't go around forcing everyone to fucking invent new words to accommodate your goddamn fucking special snowflake crybaby attitude.

Thirtyeight said:
But that's just it. The words were never harmful. Words cannot in and of themselves cause harm. Words do not decide how inclusive a place is, people do.

People choose to take offense to things. And don't give me that "you aren't trans, you don't understand" business. Do you really think trans people appreciate you talking for them? Deciding that they are too weak to handle vulgar words? That's awfully transphobic, don't you think?

I'm going to lay my cards on the table. I don't care what words we use for males with female reproductive systems or vice versa. What gets my proverbial goat is people deciding that because something bugs them, stuff has to change. Its selfish, narcissistic, and the worst part is that people think they are doing a good thing. We need to grow out of thinking we know whats best for other people.

That's just it though. It'll never stop until everyone's forced to live in some stupid utopian bubble where individual independence is forbidden and everyone must work for "the collective".

TruckNutz said:
Fuck this PC shit. Fuck everyone's opinions. And fuck sensitivity.
The world just couldn't fucking resist the tide of bullshit thumb sucking tumblrfags. People wanna get a so-called "sex change"? Fine. But don't go around forcing everyone to fucking invent new words to accommodate your goddamn fucking special snowflake crybaby attitude.
That's just it though. It'll never stop until everyone's forced to live in some stupid utopian bubble where individual independence is forbidden and everyone must work for "the collective".

Amen.

Mutisija said:
if you had read this thread, you would have seen that there has already been multiple trans people telling that these words are offensive so its not just one person talking for all trans people.

and this is not about "telling that trans people cannot handle vulgar words". this is about trans people telling that these words are slurs and would be better if they were replaced with something that is not offensive.

this is not just about some individual deciding that something is offensive. cuntboy and dickgirl are actual offensive slurs that are actually used as slurs against trans people in real life.

I have read the thread, and what you are saying holds no water. Multiple trans people does not the whole trans community make. Who are you to decide what is and is not a slur?

Nothing in this world is inherently offensive, no matter how it's used. People choose to be offended. And the second you take away what offends them, they find something else to be offended by. People have started using their feelings to decide what others are allowed to say, to do, to think. People have become addicted to being offended, and the power it brings them.

Thirtyeight said:

People choose to take offense to things. And don't give me that "you aren't trans, you don't understand" business. Do you really think trans people appreciate you talking for them? Deciding that they are too weak to handle vulgar words? That's awfully transphobic, don't you think?

Im nb. Im a member of the trans community. My girlfriend is trans.

Im not being transphobic.

Mutisija said:
if you had read this thread, you would have seen that there has already been multiple trans people telling that these words are offensive so its not just one person talking for all trans people.

and this is not about "telling that trans people cannot handle vulgar words". this is about trans people telling that these words are slurs and would be better if they were replaced with something that is not offensive.

this is not just about some individual deciding that something is offensive. cuntboy and dickgirl are actual offensive slurs that are actually used as slurs against trans people in real life.

Thank you.

As to Ko-san trucknutz and thirtyeight, if your only argument is "oh no its too pc for me" then you have no argument :/

Im proposing the same as what Lance and Titanmelon have suggested.

Its not the best tagging upgrade. But its functional. Its been shown to work on other sites and if the only argument against it is "i personally dont care" or "im afraid of change" then there is no argument at all.

Thirtyeight said:
I have read the thread, and what you are saying holds no water. Multiple trans people does not the whole trans community make. Who are you to decide what is and is not a slur?

Nothing in this world is inherently offensive, no matter how it's used. People choose to be offended. And the second you take away what offends them, they find something else to be offended by. People have started using their feelings to decide what others are allowed to say, to do, to think. People have become addicted to being offended, and the power it brings them.

This too.

Thirtyeight, TruckNutz

agreed, true, agreed.

Thirtyeight said:
I have read the thread, and what you are saying holds no water. Multiple trans people does not the whole trans community make. Who are you to decide what is and is not a slur?

Nothing in this world is inherently offensive, no matter how it's used. People choose to be offended.

Ask literally any trans person and they will also tell you its a slur.

We are telling you its a slur because its a slur. Were not just making stuff up.

This isnt about some imaginary issue of "we decided to be offended" this is a group of people who are upset that the site is essentially still using terms that are literal insults and slurs.

This isnt some burning crusade to change the entire site. This is a formal request to change one tiny thing that is causing distress to a large group of people.

Some words are inherently offensive. Thats a fact. We dont use the N word anymore or a massive number of other words because theyre universally considered to be slurs. They are offensive words.

Thirtyeight said:
I have read the thread, and what you are saying holds no water. Multiple trans people does not the whole trans community make. Who are you to decide what is and is not a slur?

Nothing in this world is inherently offensive, no matter how it's used. People choose to be offended. And the second you take away what offends them, they find something else to be offended by. People have started using their feelings to decide what others are allowed to say, to do, to think. People have become addicted to being offended, and the power it brings them.

how many trans people you need to tell you that they are slurs before you believe?

im not arguing about this because i want to be offended so badly, im arguing about this because i have have had fair share of people calling me cuntboy as an insult about my gender identity.

seriously it is really degrading having to tag my fursona as cuntboy when i have had people saying "go hang yourself you disgusting cuntboy" for me.

GDelscribe said:
This isn't about some imaginary issue of "we decided to be offended"

i'm quite certain the SJWs among a great many other people have proven that to be an actual issue rather than an imaginary one. (why hello, Amos Yee. seems those people in your comments can't handle critical thinking and/or criticism, huh?)

Mutisija said:
seriously it is really degrading having to tag my fursona as cuntboy when i have had people saying "go hang yourself you disgusting cuntboy" for me.

^^^^^^

This.

No more personal attacks or it will rain bans.

The terms are vulgar, that is not even up for discussion I hope. If we can have a system that is less vulgar (and doesn't compromise the tagging/search system) then why the fuck not change?
Just because it's only about 5% of our users that might have a problem with the current tags doesn't mean we need to rub our dicks all over their faces while yelling how their problem is imagined.

Most people who seem to be against any potential change cite discomfort with "bending over to the others".
Guess what? This is essentially the same argument the other side brings up as well! Because they, too, don't want to bend over to others saying they should accept vulgar descriptions for their characters.

NotMeNotYou said:

No more personal attacks or it will rain bans.

The terms are vulgar, that is not even up for discussion I hope. If we can have a system that is less vulgar (and doesn't compromise the tagging/search system) then why the fuck not change?
Just because it's only about 5% of our users that might have a problem with the current tags doesn't mean we need to rub our dicks all over their faces while yelling how their problem is imagined.

Most people who seem to be against any potential change cite discomfort with "bending over to the others".
Guess what? This is essentially the same argument the other side brings up as well! Because they, too, don't want to bend over to others saying they should accept vulgar descriptions for their characters.

And what an unbelievably ludicrous demand it is that people would like to have their creations treated with a modicum of respect...

thank you. really.

Thank you @NotMeNotYou

Ok. So right now our tag pool of suggestions has been.

Andromorph Gynomorph, functional tags with some light issues. But very easy to pick up and learn especially considering thats what wiki entries are for.

Theyre also generally well liked and accepted as alternatives to the existing words as theyre nonvulgar and lack any form of preexisting malintent.

Its easy to remember mnemonically as well since "gyno" female body, and "andro" male body.

Aside from mild initial confusion right now they still feel like the best option and I dont think well know for sure theyll even be a problem if they go into effect.

Second set of tags were the intersex_* group which is interesting and functional but also leads to a mass change in how the sex tagging system works due to how many possible outcomes that result snd ot may overcomplicate things overall.

It could actually be a boon or bane since in some ways it already is show to work. On the other hand theres so many combinations tagging under this would be a nightmare for all involved.

Third suggestion has been Oson and Oshe.
I understand why these got ignored. Theyre not common and they have no precedent from existing language as theyre fantasy tags. Made up words like the word yiff.

Its also easy to remember as Oshe has a vulva and Oson has balls. (She, Son)

If theres any other words that work? I think the best approach is continuing to aim for progress and finding a word or set of words which can please both the need to not use vulgar terms and the necessity for simplicity.

I personally will continue to vote for Andromorph / Gynomorph. But i will settle for something else should they also be functional.

Other suggestions

Hm. I wonder if this forum is worth the cancer I'll get from reading it....nope.

And if we used Japanese terms, like "futanari" then it'd be cultural appropriation, right??? Ya know, these terms you don't like are used all over Inkbunny. Why just complain about it on e621, go to Inkbunny and lecture people there too. Oh, oh, do Wildcritters and Veebooru, too. I would love to see how that turns out.

Also, serious query - Since when did responding to something someone said immediately translate to "personal attack."

NotMeNotYou said:

No more personal attacks or it will rain bans.

The terms are vulgar, that is not even up for discussion I hope. If we can have a system that is less vulgar (and doesn't compromise the tagging/search system) then why the fuck not change?
Just because it's only about 5% of our users that might have a problem with the current tags doesn't mean we need to rub our dicks all over their faces while yelling how their problem is imagined.

Most people who seem to be against any potential change cite discomfort with "bending over to the others".
Guess what? This is essentially the same argument the other side brings up as well! Because they, too, don't want to bend over to others saying they should accept vulgar descriptions for their characters.

And what an unbelievably ludicrous demand it is that people would like to have their creations treated with a modicum of respect...

Seriously, thank you for this.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
And if we used Japanese terms, lkke "futanari" then it'd be cultural appropriation, right??? Ya know, these terms you don't like are used all over Inkbunny. Why just complain about it on e621, go to Inkbunny and lecture people there too. Oh, oh, do Wildcritters and Veebooru, too. I would love to see how that turns out.

i hate to break this to you but futanari is also transphobic term.
and i am very aware of the fact that almost all porn sites and boorus all over internet use transphobic slurs in their tagging systems. but what other sites do is not a reason for us to just stop trying to fix the issue what we have here and go to fix issues of other sites instead.

Furrin_Gok said:
If you're taking offense to a term that isn't being used in an offensive manner, that's your own problem. Don't try to punish us for using perfectly innocent words.

I feel bad, I completely misjudged you, Furrin Gok. You actually ~aren't ~ an Sjw.

About that Oson and Oshe stuff, is that not like the Tumblerina trend of making up new pronouns... like, Hi, my name is Firedash, I'm a Pyro Fox from the Forest Planet, my pronouns are vulp, vulps and vulpself, I demand you respect my pronouns and check yer hyoo-man privilege.

Hey admins, I hope you understand the kind of Pandora's Box you'll be opening by pandering to the SJW belief system.

Oh, and I find it amusing that the OP doesn't personally find the term "herm" offensive, so they feel that's permissible, but what if others out there ~do~ find it offensive? lolz.

Typical of SJWs, they only care about "offense" when it's what personally offends them. I'm gay, maybe I should start lobbying E621 to put "trigger warnings" on all images that contain characters using the word "faggot?" oh right, I just remembered that I don't care. Artist freedom.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
And if we used Japanese terms, lkke "futanari" then it'd be cultural appropriation, right??? Ya know, these terms you don't like are used all over Inkbunny. Why just complain about it on e621, go to Inkbunny and lecture people there too. Oh, oh, do Wildcritters and Veebooru, too. I would love to see how that turns out.

We don't use futanari because it is used for both dickgirls and herms. Since we make a distinction between the two we can't use a term that encompasses both.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Also, serious query - Since when did responding to something someone said immediately translate to "personal attack."

Read what Trucknutz said and ask that question again.

Mutisija said:
i hate to break this to you but futanari is also transphobic term.
and i am very aware of the fact that almost all porn sites and boorus all over internet use transphobic slurs in their tagging systems. but what other sites do is not a reason for us to just stop trying to fix the issue what we have here and go to fix issues of other sites instead.

Can I have an explanation regarding how Futanari is a slur? It's essentially the same word as hermaphrodite, which is biologically impossible in human beings.

Also, having researched what other intersex people find as "slurs", literally any term besides "man" and "woman" are seen as "slurs", including transsexual, transgender and intersex, which can't be adopted into a tagging system meant to label fictional characters, regardless of what any side "feels" about it.

Fetishization was brought up. Cool, what's that called when females get off to Yaoi and Shounen Ai stuff? Oh yeah, fetishism. But I also don't give a shit if they wanna get off to that, if that's their jam then whatever. Have fun.

Slurs cause emotional harm! Ok, I'll concede that, but we choose how we react.

People called me shit in school too, brainy faggot, pussy, etc. Ya know what I did? I worked very hard at not allowing shit like that to get under my skin. Fuck suicide, fuck self-hate. I exist to be a thorn in the side of dumbasses.

So also should you.

"NotMeNotYou":
Read what Trucknutz said and ask that question again.

Yeaaahhh....an agitated reaction to something is not a "personal attack." If he said "your face is dumb looking, therefore your argument is invalid" why yes, that would be a personal attack / ad hominem. All Trucky did was say in their way "this whole dilemma is moronic." They said nothing that could be construed as a threat or character assassination.

Ko-san said:
Can I have an explanation regarding how Futanari is a slur? It's essentially the same word as hermaphrodite, which is biologically impossible in human beings.

Actually, it's not impossible, there are plenty of reported cases (and probably plenty of unreported cases too) where an individual has both a vagina and a penis.

Ko-san said:
Can I have an explanation regarding how Futanari is a slur? It's essentially the same word as hermaphrodite, which is biologically impossible in human beings.

Also, having researched what other intersex people find as "slurs", literally any term besides "man" and "woman" are seen as "slurs", including transsexual, transgender and intersex, which can't be adopted into a tagging system meant to label fictional characters, regardless of what any side "feels" about it.

futanari is basically same as dickgirl.

transsexual is not slur but its outdated and misleading term. transgender is not offensive term. intersex is completely different thing and has absolutely nothing to do with being trans. its in fact intersex people who are more upset about the term being used about trans people.

Furrin_Gok said:
Actually, it's not impossible.

Yes, intersexism is a thing, visibly identifiable by a doctor. It's rare, but it does happen.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Fetishization was brought up. Cool, what's that called when females get off to Yaoi and Shounen Ai stuff? Oh yeah, fetishism. But I also don't give a shit if they wanna get off to that, if that's their jam then whatever. Have fun.

Slurs cause emotional harm! Ok, I'll concede that, but we choose how we react.

People called me shit in school too, brainy faggot, pussy, etc. Ya know what I did? I worked very hard at not allowing shit like that to get under my skin. Fuck suicide, fuck self-hate. I exist to be a thorn in the side of dumbasses.

So also should you.

just because its possible to just ignore being insulted does not make the insulting any more okay.

Furrin_Gok said:
Actually, it's not impossible, there are plenty of reported cases (and probably plenty of unreported cases too) where an individual has both a vagina and a penis.

humans cannot be hermaphrodites. intersex humans do exist but hermaphrodites dont.

Furrin_Gok said:
Actually, it's not impossible, there are plenty of reported cases (and probably plenty of unreported cases too) where an individual has both a vagina and a penis.

uh...speaking of...i may have at some point in time actually come across a porn video of 2 human hermaphrodites. >.> so yeah, quite rare but not impossible.

Question time! What if using "intersex" as an insult happened in the same way people use "faggot?" would it stand to reason, that SJWs would respond by wanting to ban that term as well?

Ohhhh...so transsexual is fine, but tranny isn't. Would intersex only become offensive if people shortened it and called it "inty?" what about asexuals... calling people "ace?"

What if people use those words with deliberately injurious intent??? Ban them too, right???

Right now, you think I'm just saying shit to piss people off and be a troll, but nah, just asking questions and trying to stimulate thought.

Mana Dragon Flammie, I feel like you're so dedicated to warping everything to fit your narrative that you fail to address any points that anyone is actually making.

Furrin_Gok said:
Actually, it's not impossible, there are plenty of reported cases (and probably plenty of unreported cases too) where an individual has both a vagina and a penis.

A hermaphrodite has two fully functional sets of genitalia. While there are humans born with both a penis and vagina, or boobs and a penis, there are no cases of humans with two fully functional sets of genitals.

Mutisija said:
futanari is basically same as dickgirl.

transsexual is not slur but its outdated and misleading term. transgender is not offensive term. intersex is completely different thing and has absolutely nothing to do with being trans. its in fact intersex people who are more upset about the term being used about trans people.

I believe you are confusing "newhalf" with "futanari".

And it apparently doesn't matter what you think is and isn't a slur, people think those terms are offensive.

Mutisija said:
humans cannot be hermaphrodites. intersex humans do exist but hermaphrodites dont.

They are technical hermaphrodites but their hormones make them sterile, thus they aren't "true" hermaphrodites. It's theorised they could decide to go either way with hormone suppressing drugs if they so chose, but it's untested AFAIK.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Yeaaahhh....an agitated reaction to something is not a "personal attack." If he said "your face is dumb looking, therefore your argument is invalid" why yes, that would be a personal attack / ad hominem. All Trucky did was say in their way "this whole dilemma is moronic." They said nothing that could be construed as a threat or character assassination.

TruckNutz said:
But don't go around forcing everyone to fucking invent new words to accommodate your goddamn fucking special snowflake crybaby attitude.

This is plenty personal when there are literally only 2 people in the thread that this could be aimed at.

Clawdragons said:
Mana Dragon Flammie, I feel like you're so dedicated to warping everything to fit your narrative....

Ya mean like an SJW who spends every waking moment of their existence in a perpetual easter egg hunt for new things to be offended by, while ignoring other more serious problems with the world? If I constantly kept focusing on how "everything is homophobic" I'd live a pretty miserable life. Better to just throw up my hands, and say in the immortal words of Marshall Bruce Mathers the 3rd... "I just don't give a fuck."

Oh noes, someone used a word. That's definitely on the same scale as people actually being physically hurt in the real world...

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Question time! What if using "intersex" as an insult happened in the same way people use "faggot?" would it stand to reason, that SJWs would respond by wanting to ban that term as well?

Ohhhh...so transsexual is fine, but tranny isn't. Would intersex only become offensive if people shortened it and called it "inty?" what about asexuals... calling people "ace?"

What if people use those words with deliberately injurious intent??? Ban them too, right???

Right now, you think I'm just saying shit to piss people off and be a troll, but nah, just asking questions and trying to stimulate thought.

your questions are absurd and nonsensical and you really are not helping anything here with this. and you are actively derailing this topic completely.

Mutisija said:
your questions are absurd and nonsensical and you really are not helping anything here with this. and you are actively derailing this topic completely.

Then you completely failed to grasp the message of those hypotheticals. My point is ANY word can become offensive, it's the context that catapults it into "that's offensive" status. Any term... All it takes is one person to do it. "Ew, stupid ace, asexuality is so weird." And then suddenly everyone wants that term to be banned. "Ugh, you're so BOSSY..." now we hafta ban bossy, whoops!!!

Cissie, cis scum and hetero shitlord are still alright, cuz that's "punching up!"

Selective offense. And then demanding that what offends you be aggressively policed.... tell me that's not a Pandora's Box.

If you can't stay on topic then do everyone else a favor and don't respond.

You've made it very clear that descenting points of view will not be tolerated here in these forums. Users MUST adopt the views of the mods which are themselves parrotings of the SJW demands. Tow the line or be dealt with. Don't have your own opinions or you'll be punished. The SJWs / Tumblerinas / respond first and read later types own this place now. Time for us to get out, eh, Treos? ^.^

So long, e621. You had a good run.

NotMeNotYou said:
The terms are vulgar, that is not even up for discussion I hope. If we can have a system that is less vulgar (and doesn't compromise the tagging/search system) then why the fuck not change?

Do we have any system to simplify trialling tag renames (probably not, but I live in hope)? Personally, I would be happy with trialling andromorph and gynomorph for a few months *if* there was a way of getting some sense of how well people actually pick them up.

GDelscribe said:
Can you explain to me what Im supposed to do to get a point across?

• be specific, not vague. If you can't point to -specific- examples (Mutisja provided one, for example), admit it instead of making a sweeping statement. Sweeping statements (such as your statement that 'people are afraid of not using a slur' because they are 'socially ignorant' due to 'self-indulgence') are generally used, and frequently recognized, as dodges.
• Strictly avoid emotionally loaded words (for example 'offense' / 'offended' is both emotionally loaded and vague. 'demeaning' is just emotionally loaded). Imagine you are an alien writing about the human GDelscribe's views, purely out of scientific interest. Emotionally loaded words generally escalate the situation and polarize people.
• Ask people what their position is (and then quote them) rather than generalizing it. It doesn't matter if their view of their position is wrong, usually -- letting them describe their position demonstrates reasonableness, and you can often demonstrate contradictions just by quoting the two contradicting statements they made.
• Avoid adopting aggressive attitudes like 'this should have been fixed years ago' ('it's 2016'). Again with the neutrality : 'I want to help fix this now'. Accusatory language doesn't help. It's in its current state, and you want to change that state; full stop.
• If you can't make a calm rebuttal, make no rebuttal. 'Shutting up' is a frequently good but hard to grasp technique.

These are some strategies. Most of them you have partially employed. But what I'm saying overall is you need to totally employ them -- ie. be consistent. Always do the reasonable thing even if you don't feel like it (and especially when your opponents are being unreasonable).
Avoid making prejudiced statements or unjustifiable assumptions (eg. "And as long as we have people afraid of something as simple as not using a slur." -- 'people are afraid of not using a slur' is a prejudiced framing and also, AFAICS, an unjustifiable assumption. The following sentence compounds it by assuming that you know that their 'fear of not using a slur' is because they are 'so self indulgent' and are consequently 'socially ignorant'. Can you see why people might feel annoyance or even contempt at this?)

This is all aimed at 'coming across as someone respectable and reasonable, who is making a solid argument (even if I don't necessarily agree with'. Dropping the ball on any of those criteria is an invitation to opponents.

You made great points, but since it doesn't allign with "le feelz" it will be ignored or requoted in a selective context to make you lool like a douche. Still, good post.

Thirtyeight said:
But that's just it. The words were never harmful. Words cannot in and of themselves cause harm. Words do not decide how inclusive a place is, people do.

People choose to take offense to things. And don't give me that "you aren't trans, you don't understand" business. Do you really think trans people appreciate you talking for them? Deciding that they are too weak to handle vulgar words? That's awfully transphobic, don't you think?

I'm going to lay my cards on the table. I don't care what words we use for males with female reproductive systems or vice versa. What gets my proverbial goat is people deciding that because something bugs them, stuff has to change. Its selfish, narcissistic, and the worst part is that people think they are doing a good thing. We need to grow out of thinking we know whats best for other people.