Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
You've made it very clear that descenting points of view will not be tolerated here in these forums. Users MUST adopt the views of the mods which are themselves parrotings of the SJW demands. Tow the line or be dealt with. Don't have your own opinions or you'll be punished. The SJWs / Tumblerinas / respond first and read later types own this place now. Time for us to get out, eh, Treos? ^.^

So long, e621. You had a good run.

I am the farthest thing from an SJW. You can make a point without belittling other people for disagreeing with you if you would actually try. Quit acting like an entitled child with the whole "how dare you NOT agree with me" attitude and act like the adult you supposedly are.

Final warning. Next time I have to come in here and make you sit down it'll be a ban.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:

You post like you have some great point to make.
If you could make that point -or any point- some time now, that'd be great.

Otherwise, you're still shitposting from the most remarkably ironic seat of smug moral superiority.

What's with forum posts like this that attracts people that can't just treat other people like people?

^{Back to the subject at hand}

The tags "Dickgirl" and "Cuntboy" exist for purely utilitarian purposes. The personal agendas need not apply.

Because we got a bit off topic, and we're having trouble getting back on topic, I'm going to try to do a very short summary of where we are right now, and hopefully reset things away from drama, because I do think this is an important topic and it would be a shame if we couldn't maintain civility and it got locked.

Basics: The terms cuntboy and dickgirl are vulgar and, to some people, offensive. If we can come up with terms that are as clear in their usage but are less offensive, that would be good. The proposals thus far:

Whew! That was a fair bit of work (and if I missed something, I apologize). Now, if this continues, I'm sure more terms will be suggested, but for now, why don't we try to think on what has been proposed and see what people think are the best options.

If you fellows like, how about we each pick out the top three options?

So lemme see if I got this right... Phallimorph for characters with feminine appearance but phallic genitals. Gynomorph for characters with masculine appearance but vaginal genitals.

Yay, now everything is in those non-binary terms you people like so much. Let's also remove the distinction between feral and anthro, it's sentience-ist! Those poor ferals, even the term "feral" implies wild and aggressive, like "thug."

Why should anthros get the soft, pleasant terminology just because they can walk on two legs and talk. Buuut.... what to call them... Hm. Sentience-Deficient? Nah, too negative.

Not that I think this should have anything to do with the outcome here, but I personally find phallady really degrading. :(

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
So lemme see if I got this right... Phallimorph for characters with feminine appearance but phallic genitals. Gynomorph for characters with masculine appearance but vaginal genitals.

Yay, now everything is in those non-binary terms you people like so much. Let's also remove the distinction between feral and anthro, it's sentience-ist! Those poor ferals, even the term "feral" implies wild and aggressive, like "thug."

Why should anthros get the soft, pleasant terminology just because they can walk on two legs and talk. Buuut.... what to call them... Hm. Sentience-Deficient? Nah, too negative.

Enjoy your vacation.

parasprite said:
Not that I think this should have anything to do with the outcome here, but I personally find phallady really degrading. :(

*tips phadora*

Heh, phadora.

One suggestion, which would potentially be very hard to implement, would be a new tagging system for genders entirely, eg:
gender:[penis balls] <-- Returns male
gender:[vagina breasts] <-- Returns female
gender:[vagina masculine] <-- Returns cuntboy or masculine female with no breasts visible
gender:[vagina feminine] <-- Returns cuntboy or feminine female with no breasts visible
gender:[penis balls breasts] <-- Returns dickgirl

Benefits:

• Extra inclusive of gender appearance
• No debate/people getting upset about Dickgirl/Cuntboy, Vagentleman/Phallady, Transboy/Transgirl, Andromorph/Gynomorth, etc im not going to type them all. Primarily because this tags each character based on features not a single tag
• Added bonus of being able to search tags_gender:1 gender:[vagina feminine] -solo and what not

Cost:

• Probably lots of programming and regex usage.
• No short tags, possible to alias male to gender:[penis balls] and female to gender:[breasts vagina]
• Again regex of terror
• Would take time to get used to
• REGEX OF TERROR

parasprite said:
Not that I think this should have anything to do with the outcome here, but I personally find phallady really degrading. :(

Yeah, that's probably too similar to 'ladyboy'. Which is also considered a slur. I don't think it'd work much better than dickgirl.

If andro- and gynomorph are out, then I don't see any options besides keeping the status quo or using those 'Male-Bodied with Pussy / Female-Bodied with Penis' tags. Which are too long and clunky, and likely to be additionally tagged as male/female.

Chaser said:
One suggestion, which would potentially be very hard to implement, would be a new tagging system for genders entirely, eg:
gender:[penis balls] <-- Returns male
gender:[vagina breasts] <-- Returns female
gender:[vagina masculine] <-- Returns cuntboy or masculine female with no breasts visible
gender:[vagina feminine] <-- Returns cuntboy or feminine female with no breasts visible
gender:[penis balls breasts] <-- Returns dickgirl

Benefits:

• Extra inclusive of gender appearance
• No debate/people getting upset about Dickgirl/Cuntboy, Vagentleman/Phallady, Transboy/Transgirl, Andromorph/Gynomorth, etc im not going to type them all. Primarily because this tags each character based on features not a single tag
• Added bonus of being able to search tags_gender:1 gender:[vagina feminine] -solo and what not

Cost:

• Probably lots of programming and regex usage.
• No short tags, possible to alias male to gender:[penis balls] and female to gender:[breasts vagina]
• Again regex of terror
• Would take time to get used to
• REGEX OF TERROR

okay but why balls? i mean internal balls are very popular thing here.

Chaser said:
One suggestion, which would potentially be very hard to implement, would be a new tagging system for genders entirely, eg:
gender:[penis balls] <-- Returns male
gender:[vagina breasts] <-- Returns female
gender:[vagina masculine] <-- Returns cuntboy or masculine female with no breasts visible
gender:[vagina feminine] <-- Returns cuntboy or feminine female with no breasts visible
gender:[penis balls breasts] <-- Returns dickgirl

Honestly, I think that many of the issues I have with tag ambiguity could be resolved with having a gender tagging section. It seems as though every picture should either have non-pictured or gender tags (even if just ambiguous_gender). It would make searching easier in some ways, and tagging easier in some, but the most obvious benefit that's relevant to this discussion is that it would allow for the change of tags to include some of the ambiguous terms I previously discounted, because their meaning would be far clearer if they were in their own color as part of a gender category.

Mutisija said:
okay but why balls? i mean internal balls are very popular thing here.

It was an example, I am a coder not a PR person. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Could use internal_balls as well, but again up to how it is designed. I take designs and make them work, not the other way around. If it was the other way around stuff explodes.

Chaser said:

• regex
• ...
• Again regex of terror
• ...
• REGEX OF TERROR

Not that I think this would be practical to implement, but...

Sort valid elements into an array alphabetically, add them up.

• balls - 1
• breasts - 2
• feminine - 4
• masculine - 8
• penis - 16
• pussy - 32

gender:[breasts penis feminine] -> return 22 (dickgirl)

Still would be a pain in the ass to implement, and pretty unintuitive for most users, but very little regex would be needed. :p

savageorange said:
Do we have any system to simplify trialling tag renames (probably not, but I live in hope)? Personally, I would be happy with trialling andromorph and gynomorph for a few months *if* there was a way of getting some sense of how well people actually pick them up.

it would be great if we could Give Andromorph and Gynomorph a test run. Like. See if the tags work/dont work for a month or so. And if theres complaints that are valid we go back to discussion.

But if after a month it works just keep it that way?

(Also apologies. Youre right I was committing ad hominem. Even so unintentionally because I was overly emotional at the time.)

parasprite said:
Not that I think this would be practical to implement, but...

Sort valid elements into an array alphabetically, add them up.

• balls - 1
• breasts - 2
• feminine - 4
• masculine - 8
• penis - 16
• pussy - 32

gender:[breasts penis feminine] -> return 22 (dickgirl)

Still would be a pain in the ass to implement, and pretty unintuitive for most users, but very little regex would be needed. :p

This system is really close to what Titanmelon suggested If I remember right and its really functional. Also apparently exhentai and aome other image archives also use this to great effect. So Id be curious to see how it works out.

We could change some things though like. Males can have balls internally so the term here would have to be scrotum in that regard wouldnt it?

Adding a new section for this could in the end seem unwieldy but be more functional and in the long run actually beneficially be less work and less confusion because its literally tag what you see incarnate.

This character has sex: penis+scrotum etc so male

This character has sex: penis+breasts
Returning Gynomorph as full tag class

Also Im fine with herm because herm isnt a slur its a zoological and medical term. Its only a slur when used on intersex people. Since we havw the intersex tag and denote they are indeed different its not an issue.

Hermaphrodite refers to any creature which has both sets of male and female reproductive apparatus and both sets function flawlessly. Plants are hermaphrodite. Worms are hermaphrodite. Many kinda of frogs and newts are pseudo hermaphrodite as they can change sex at will and also at times can have both.

Applying that to a furry character means their fursona being an imaginary being thats an animal has that hermaphrodite trait and thats it thats all.

All in all I dont think Andromorph and Gynomorph are out of the question cause as demonstrated their still really functional and over the course of this thread even the people whod mentioned them being confusing have used them properly later on in the thread so. Its very easy to pick it up.

Chaser said:
One suggestion, which would potentially be very hard to implement, would be a new tagging system for genders entirely, eg:
gender:[penis balls] <-- Returns male
gender:[vagina breasts] <-- Returns female
gender:[vagina masculine] <-- Returns cuntboy or masculine female with no breasts visible
gender:[vagina feminine] <-- Returns cuntboy or feminine female with no breasts visible
gender:[penis balls breasts] <-- Returns dickgirl

I think this is sort of what people want (ie. people have preferences this specific, but they don't like long search terms, they want short ones generally.). I think we'd need to support short aliases to these.

• Probably lots of programming and regex usage.
• Again regex of terror
• REGEX OF TERROR

If your regex terrifies you, you probably shouldn't be using regex for that purpose. Not like it's hard to write a basic text parser; speed doesn't matter at all here, the grammar of queries is simple, and after it's tokenized you can always validate individual tokens using regex if needed.

You could also simplify parsing by swapping spaces for commas, AFAICS.

+1 on CD's gender tag type idea.

Again,

"Andromorph" and "Gynomorph" are hideous terms. It doesn't matter that it means things in latin... It's weird and it's unfamiliar. There WILL be a group of people who are offended by and object to having their characters tagged with such weird/ugly-sounding nonsense. This then solves nothing vs. where we are at this moment. The terms also have the large negative that absolutely nobody will know what the fuck they mean, and it will takes ages for people to figure it out, especially given that those tags will have never been used before on literally any other major site out there in the fandom or elsewhere. In my opinion these terms, as well as any made-up terms, are the worst option that could be chosen out of almost everything suggested.

You want a slur? Go refer to someone or their character as an "andromorph" or a "gynomorph" to their face and see how they like it.

Literally the only suggestion that I've seen in this thread so far that is both reasonably-implementable and non-ridiculous in some fashion is "intersex_male" and "intersex_female" while leaving the "herm" tags as they are. The only downside that I can really see, other than having to change the tags in the first place, is that they're a bit long and the "herm" tags would continue to be outside the general format as they currently are now.

Frankly I'd be concerned with anything else suggested so far being co-opted as a claimed slur a few years down the road like "cuntboy" and "dickgirl" have been today.

Honest question here - Was "cuntboy"s current usage not originally created and popularized amongst furries years ago when they adopted the term to describe their own fantasy characters, and created simply by basing it off the structure of "dickgirl"? Literally the only time I've heard the term prior to then was maybe an occasional usage to refer to a gay "bottom" male as a way to reinforce the reference to their "feminine" bottom role. Even if you search the term on google today, nearly everything that comes up is furry related.

Weve seen by proof of this thread alone its only taken2 days for people to learn what they mean so that point is somewhat moot.

What about andromorph gynomorph is hideous exactly. They dont sound that bad and honestly if the only objection is "they sound wierd" thats ok cause it will be something people can get used to you know?

Ive brought the term up to the people who are directly being affected by the current tags and they seem to unilaterally agree that they are ok.

Yeah they sound foreign. Theyre really old.

Just because others havent used those terms en masse doesnt mean we cant be the first to set a good example with you know ?

Also agree that expanded Gendertag system may be the best option but it still leaves the issue we started with. The blanket words in the tag cloud would still be dgirl and cboy as they are.

Also from urbandictionary

cuntboy

Definition 1:
a boy with a cunt, aka a female-to-male (FtM) transgender/transsexual who hasn't had bottom surgery (and in this case who looks like a boy instead of a man, like some FtMs do).

Definition 2:
derogatory and fetishising word for a female-to-male transgender individual."
"Is that a boy or a girl?"

Origin-
"Fictional gender and an oxymoron]: flat chested] male who has a pussy instead of penis, and is able bear children.

This term was made up by furries. It was originally used sarcastically on alt.fan.furry for "special snowflake" characters who were so different that they needed their own gender. Sometimes used seriously by those who aren't aware of its origin.

Cuntboy is also occasionally used as an insult for transgendered individuals."

Its a term that was created as a slur used sarcastically to degrade furries who were trans and has always been a bad thing.

Crispix said:
"Andromorph" and "Gynomorph" are hideous terms. It doesn't matter that it means things in latin... It's weird and it's unfamiliar.

I don't think that's such a big deal. Most people are familiar with androgynous, and we use plenty of latin terms already: anthro (anthromorph), heterochromia, monochrome, digitigrade, etc.

Honest question here - Was "cuntboy"s current usage not originally created and popularized amongst furries years ago when they adopted the term to describe their own fantasy characters, and created simply by basing it off the structure of "dickgirl"?

That was decades ago.
Patachu was the first 'cuntboy' in furdom. Or one of the first, at least. I think the word was originally used as a slur, but I'd have to dig though alt.fan.furry archives to confirm that.

Genjar said:
I don't think that's such a big deal. Most people are familiar with androgynous, and we use plenty of latin terms already: anthro (anthromorph), heterochromia, monochrome, digitigrade, etc.

That was decades ago.
Patachu was the first 'cuntboy' in furdom. Or one of the first, at least. I think the word was originally used as a slur, but I'd have to dig though alt.fan.furry archives to confirm that.

Yeah it was originally used as an insult in sarcastic tone.

And yep. A lot of people understand gyno and andro and anthropomorphic and etc so its not too hard to learn when theyre based of existing widely accepted and acceptable terms.

Thank you again.

GDelscribe said:
Weve seen by proof of this thread alone its only taken2 days for people to learn what they mean so that point is somewhat moot.

What about andromorph gynomorph is hideous exactly. They dont sound that bad and honestly if the only objection is "they sound wierd" thats ok cause it will be something people can get used to you know?

Ive brought the term up to the people who are directly being affected by the current tags and they seem to unilaterally agree that they are ok.

Yeah they sound foreign. Theyre really old.

Just because others havent used those terms en masse doesnt mean we cant be the first to set a good example with you know ?

Also agree that expanded Gendertag system may be the best option but it still leaves the issue we started with. The blanket words in the tag cloud would still be dgirl and cboy as they are.

Also from urbandictionary

cuntboy

Definition 1:
a boy with a cunt, aka a female-to-male (FtM) transgender/transsexual who hasn't had bottom surgery (and in this case who looks like a boy instead of a man, like some FtMs do).

Definition 2:
derogatory and fetishising word for a female-to-male transgender individual."
"Is that a boy or a girl?"

Origin-
"Fictional gender and an oxymoron]: flat chested] male who has a pussy instead of penis, and is able bear children.

This term was made up by furries. It was originally used sarcastically on alt.fan.furry for "special snowflake" characters who were so different that they needed their own gender. Sometimes used seriously by those who aren't aware of its origin.

Cuntboy is also occasionally used as an insult for transgendered individuals."

Its a term that was created as a slur used sarcastically to degrade furries who were trans and has always been a bad thing.

This thread is an absolutely terrible gauge to determine how well a tag is going to be figured out by the average userbase of this website. Tag discussion by advanced users who understand tagging and are participating in this argument is nowhere near the same environment as average users just trying to find and tag pictures. You can't at all make this assumption. Aliasing might help them out by allowing them to sort-of continue to use the current terms though.

Counter question: What's wrong with intersex_female and intersex_male? Bonus: They're formed from english words with established meanings that have history in the fandom and e621. They also have little chance to be claimed as an offensive slur in the future based on that simplistic structure. Andromorph and Gynomorph, in addition to being new and weird and having no real apparent history of usage in the fandom at all, personally almost sound to me the same way "Manthing" and "Girlthing" sound in english. I find that to be pretty awful. Pretty easy to toss those around in an offensive manner too, if you wanted to.

The people "directly being affected by the current tags" are not at all the only people who's opinions matter on this issue.

You're currently attempting to sweepingly determine what every single person who has an intersex character on this website will have their character tagged as in the future which, as you are aware, is a sensitive issue to some people. The group of people who are currently unhappy are equally as important as the people who are happy who are equally as important as the people who currently don't care... because any single one of them might change their stance after this change.

Urban dictionary is an awful source for emotionally charged words, by the way. Not only are there a bunch more random definitions in there with varying degrees of votes, but all it takes is one internet charge to go mob the unlimited public no-account votes on those to affect the "definitions" of various terms.

I honestly don't remember "cuntboy" starting out as an insult whatsoever, and even if someone did sling it like that originally a few times, I definitely don't remember it becoming a popular used/known term until people were proudly branding their own furry characters with it and it was catching on in that manner. Although you're right Genjar, it was a long fucking time ago at this point, and I'm certainly not about to go back browsing through newsgroup archives to verify.

I can assure you that the people who have intersex characters would rather have almost anything but sommething thats been a slur since genesis.

Myself being one of those people.

Crispix said:
Counter question: What's wrong with intersex_female and intersex_male?

That was going to be my suggestion, but I switched them to intersex_penis and intersex_vagina because I thought they would be more intuitive replacements for the two tags they replace. dickgirl = intersex_female = intersex_penis, cuntboy = intersex_male = intersex_vagina. Also, mashing up two gender tags with an underscore could be undesirable, confusing (for example my definition does not match with the Urban Dictionary definition posted earlier) or easily mistagged, whereas intersex_penis (formerly dickgirl) can be safely implicated to penis, because all dickgirl images are supposed to be rating:explicit with the penis visible, according to the wiki.

I personally support at least changing "cuntboy" to "vagentleman" for the following reasons:
1. It is immediately recognizable and fulfills exactly the same purpose as the original word (you don't need to look up its meaning in the wiki like you would have to do with the *morph tags)
2. It is considerably less obscene, and
3. Is in fact a compliment to the character in question. Calling someone a "gentleman" is a sign of respect. So if we choose this word, not only would we erase the vulgarity of the "cuntboy" tag, but the new tag would go above and beyond by assigning a form of praise to people's characters.

There were complaints about the female equivalent of the tag ("phallady") and I agree that it's not the best option, so I would suggest a partial change for now. I think most people would at the very least be happy with changing cuntboy to vagentleman. So what we could do is change "cuntboy" to "vagentleman" and then continue discussing here what would be an appropriate replacement for the female tag.

Just for clarification, since it seems people think these will be replacing the tags entirely, you can still search/tag "herm" or "cuntboy" the same way you can still search/tag "gay" or "lesbian". They will be aliased to which ever the new tags are.
Technically, you still get a choice even after a decision is made.
Hell, I still tag "gay" instead of "male/male" because I am used to tagging it that way, I actually didn't even notice the change.
So if your worry is that you will have to learn whole new tags for stuff, no worries about that. Just tag cuntboy or dickgirl or herm or whatever your heart desires and the website will accept it.

Chaser said:
Just for clarification, since it seems people think these will be replacing the tags entirely, you can still search/tag "herm" or "cuntboy" the same way you can still search/tag "gay" or "lesbian". They will be aliased to which ever the new tags are.
Technically, you still get a choice even after a decision is made.
Hell, I still tag "gay" instead of "male/male" because I am used to tagging it that way, I actually didn't even notice the change.
So if your worry is that you will have to learn whole new tags for stuff, no worries about that. Just tag cuntboy or dickgirl or herm or whatever your heart desires and the website will accept it.

This. This is an unobtrusive change.

Its harmless and does away with a bad problem.

Also,

Vagentleman and Phallady are really not good choices because theyre virtually no differeng from what we have now.

Chaser said:
Just for clarification, since it seems people think these will be replacing the tags entirely, you can still search/tag "herm" or "cuntboy" the same way you can still search/tag "gay" or "lesbian". They will be aliased to which ever the new tags are.
Technically, you still get a choice even after a decision is made.
Hell, I still tag "gay" instead of "male/male" because I am used to tagging it that way, I actually didn't even notice the change.
So if your worry is that you will have to learn whole new tags for stuff, no worries about that. Just tag cuntboy or dickgirl or herm or whatever your heart desires and the website will accept it.

That is a relief. Good to know.

GDelscribe said:
Vagentleman and Phallady are really not good choices because theyre virtually no differeng from what we have now.

Why do you consider "vagentleman" to be a slur?

And regardless of whether you think it's a "good" choice, would you agree that it is better than what we have now?

You know what? Fine. I'm jumping on the bandwagon.

GDelscribe, Mutisija, I wish to apologise. It is not my intention to antagonize either of you over matters that are deeply personal to you. Please do not believe I said what I said out of hatred.

Seriously though.
Let's just experiment with my earlier suggestion, changing redneck to caucasian_american_ruralite.

Anonymless said:
Why do you consider "vagentleman" to be a slur?

And regardless of whether you think it's a "good" choice, would you agree that it is better than what we have now?

Its definitely a step up but. Its really only one step up the ladder.

Say vaginaman outloud a couple times. And it just... sounds really bad. Not only that but Id gone over the terms with others in the past and theres quite a backlash. Some people think theyre cute but majority find them insulting. Not to mention that unllick andromorph gynomorph theyre still functionally "genitals+man/woman" which a lot of folks have issue with.

TruckNutz said:
You know what? Fine. I'm jumping on the bandwagon.

Hey whatever works. Thank you for the vote of confidence.

TruckNutz said:
Seriously though.
Let's just experiment with my earlier suggestion, changing redneck to caucasian_american_ruralite.

One step at a time but yeah perhaps we should go through something like that later. For simplicity simply Caucasian_southerner or something? Or just southerner?? Im not sure how to touch that but we could totally come back to it once our current tags are settled if its really an issue. Ive seen other people also complain about redneck in specific so I can understand where youre coming from.

Thirtyeight said:
GDelscribe, Mutisija, I wish to apologise. It is not my intention to antagonize either of you over matters that are deeply personal to you. Please do not believe I said what I said out of hatred.

Its more than fine. Thank you. Its appreciated. I hope that we can all come up with something that works best.

Mutisija said:
humans cannot be hermaphrodites. intersex humans do exist but hermaphrodites dont.

Ah, you're referring to the active gonads? Yeah, the body usually shuts down one set of them, if not both sets. I haven't heard of them inducing activity from them, but I'd imagine that'd be easier to do than creating an entirely new set of gonads.

Furrin_Gok said:
Ah, you're referring to the active gonads? Yeah, the body usually shuts down one set of them, if not both sets. I haven't heard of them inducing activity from them, but I'd imagine that'd be easier to do than creating an entirely new set of gonads.

Also in a lot of cases due to inactive glands the genitals never fully or sometimes even properly develop at all.

Lance_Armstrong said:
That was going to be my suggestion, but I switched them to intersex_penis and intersex_vagina because I thought they would be more intuitive replacements for the two tags they replace. dickgirl = intersex_female = intersex_penis, cuntboy = intersex_male = intersex_vagina. Also, mashing up two gender tags with an underscore could be undesirable, confusing (for example my definition does not match with the Urban Dictionary definition posted earlier) or easily mistagged, whereas intersex_penis (formerly dickgirl) can be safely implicated to penis, because all dickgirl images are supposed to be rating:explicit with the penis visible, according to the wiki.

I don't have any personal investment in this issue from either side, but I like your suggestion the most. It's straightforward, given what the images present us with. I can understand how it would be upsetting to have your characters tagged with something they're not to you, but in most cases gender or identity is simply outside the scope of Tag What You See, and TWYS is pretty vital to the search function on this site being useful to end users. We have to tag based on genitals and body characteristics, because that's all we can see without more outside context, even if that may be degrading or disrespectful with that context considered.

Beyond that, yeah let's get rid of tags that are slurs.

Lance_Armstrong said:
That was going to be my suggestion, but I switched them to intersex_penis and intersex_vagina because I thought they would be more intuitive replacements for the two tags they replace. dickgirl = intersex_female = intersex_penis, cuntboy = intersex_male = intersex_vagina. Also, mashing up two gender tags with an underscore could be undesirable, confusing (for example my definition does not match with the Urban Dictionary definition posted earlier) or easily mistagged, whereas intersex_penis (formerly dickgirl) can be safely implicated to penis, because all dickgirl images are supposed to be rating:explicit with the penis visible, according to the wiki.

intersex_penis and intersex_vagina sound like solid choices to me.

GDelscribe said:
I can assure you that the people who have intersex characters would rather have almost anything but sommething thats been a slur since genesis.

Myself being one of those people.

Incorrect. This is just an assumption you're making.

Here's a search from furaffinity where people can free-form tag their own characters with literally whatever terms they desire:
http://i.imgur.com/klcFBrZ.png

Crispix said:
Incorrect. This is just an assumption you're making.

Here's a search from furaffinity where people can free-form tag their own characters with literally whatever terms they desire:
http://i.imgur.com/klcFBrZ.png

WOW! There are more "cuntboy" posts then "dickgirl" posts and "transexual" has a fraction of those. There are a ton of transgender posts but those are for transformation pictures.

http://imgur.com/a/JrYD4

Crispix said:
Incorrect. This is just an assumption you're making.

Here's a search from furaffinity where people can free-form tag their own characters with literally whatever terms they desire:

You do realize using furaffinity isnt a good example either right?

Of those examples a good 90% of them are likely commissions. An artist posting a commission of someones character with a slur tag is very different from someone uploading art of their own character and using it.

Again I reiterate.

I can absolutely assure you most people with intersex or alternate configuration would rather not use words like that. Theyre awful theyre harmful and theyre vulgar.

Theres no point in defending them.

Also. Ko-san. Nobody uses the term transexual. Nobody in the trans community has used transexual unironically in over a decade or more.

And no. A large amount of people use the transgender tag for themselves. And a lot of cis people who dont understand it use it to tag transformation pics incorrectly.

Using fa is not an example.

Theres no reason to be defending either Dgirl or Cboy.

I think at this point that discussion is long past over and long past necessary.

As to the intersex_* tags. Im fine with them since they already have precedent for use.

I still prefer andromorph gynomorph but if we have to settle on a single consensus that the staff is fine with in the end its gonna be the one thats /simpler/.

Id still love to get a trial run on the morph tags though heh.

+1 intersex_penis + intersex_vagina (although we mostly use 'pussy' instead of 'vagina', so probably intersex_pussy will be better understood). These are better than andromorph/gynomorph because they are more specific : body type you wouldn't expect to have a (penis|vagina). ie. intersex_penis clearly implies 'female body, except with penis' and intersex_vagina 'male body, except with vagina'

Crispix said:
Incorrect. This is just an assumption you're making.

Here's a search from furaffinity where people can free-form tag their own characters with literally whatever terms they desire:
http://i.imgur.com/klcFBrZ.png

I think that GDelscribe's claim is overreaching, but it's also true that word choice is hard, and you have to consider what people actually search for when picking tags (if you want your art to get exposure)

Intersex_penis and intersex_pussy would get tagged for herms, and neither makes it obvious that the bodytype should be taken into account. Cuntboy at least conveys that the character should have a masculine bodytype.

Genjar said:
Intersex_penis and intersex_pussy would get tagged for herms, and neither makes it obvious that the bodytype should be taken into account. Cuntboy at least conveys that the character should have a masculine bodytype.

This is why I have been mainly lobbying for Andromorph / Gynomorph cause theyre out with body type first.

That said the argument that theyd implicate herms isnt right because herm and intersex are different to begin with and shouldnt necessarily imply each other.

Intersex_* is functional but not as straightforward as andromorph gynomorph even though they might be initially confusing it wouldnt take long at all for people to pick them up. As demonstrated here.

GDelscribe said:
That said the argument that theyd implicate herms isnt right because herm and intersex are different to begin with and shouldnt necessarily imply each other.

e621 uses intersex as an umbrella tag, and herm is one of its subtags.

Genjar said:
e621 uses intersex as an umbrella tag, and herm is one of its subtags.

Well Im not gonna argue that or its use. Thats a whole different animal for a different time.

I think in the end using intersex _* tags may prove to be more confusing to some people than andromorph or gynomorph because it doesnt strictly imply body structure the way they do.

Gynomorph outright states female shape or woman shape. But in secondsry usage the morph also can refer to "different" making it work functionally well.

Intersex_penis could imply that the character is like. For example my character Shaelpree, he has a female body overall but is flat chested and has a penis. But also a vulva. He has no balls. Neither of his genitals work except for just straight out fucking, they cant reproduce. Theyre intersex.

This character would fall under the intersex_penis and intersex_vulva tags as well as the herm tag and it wouldnt work.

But theyd fall under dickgirl/gynomorph just fine because they are female bodied with alternative genitals.

What about parenthetical clarifications?

We seem to like the idea of intersex_penis and intersex_pussy in general, though they have some issues, and some other tags have the problem of not having a perfectly clear usage, so what about...

intersex_(gynomorph) intersex_(andromorph)

Which includes some of the clarity of intersex_* without the ambiguity of seeming applying to herms?

This would work for other pairs of suggestions as well. But reasonably short, combines some of the best features of several suggestions, and avoids a couple of the negatives hopefully?

I dont see any issue with this really. In the end Im gonna accept anything that isnt dgirl/cboy or a variation of them (like Vagentleman).

Theres upsides and downsides to both intersex_* and *morph. So.

Crispix said:
"Andromorph" and "Gynomorph" are hideous terms. It doesn't matter that it means things in latin... It's weird and it's unfamiliar.

Popped into this discussion to say just this.
If I had logged on yesterday to find those tags used on this site, I (and most likely anyone not a part of this thread) would not have any idea what either of them are.

The intersex_male/female ones seemed pretty straightforward though.

donteven said:
Popped into this discussion to say just this.
If I had logged on yesterday to find those tags used on this site, I (and most likely anyone not a part of this thread) would not have any idea what either of them are.

The intersex_male/female ones seemed pretty straightforward though.

Your "intersex_male/female" statement, I had been thinking about that. How would the */* tagging work for intersexes? We do currently use Dickgirl/* and cuntboy/*, right now. The quick answer is intersex_*/*, but how would an instance of, say, intersex_male/male work out? 'Cause that can get confusing for tagging purposes. We do use intersex/*, though, for generalized intersex & (gender) sexual actions...

Maybe intersex_* should be intersex_guy and intersex_girl, or etc., so my aforementioned problem won't be as much of one.

Siral_Exan said:
Your "intersex_male/female" statement, I had been thinking about that. How would the */* tagging work for intersexes? The quick answer is intersex_*/*, but how would an instance of, say, intersex_male/male work out? 'Cause that can get confusing for tagging purposes. We do use intersex/*, though, for generalized intersex & (gender) sexual actions...

Maybe intersex_* should be intersex_guy and intersex_girl, or etc., so my aforementioned problem won't be as much of one.

Ah, no no, I was just referring to the intersex_male and intersex_female tags, and just being a lazy typist.

donteven said:
Ah, no no, I was just referring to the intersex_male and intersex_female tags, and just being a lazy typist.

Yea, I know /'s are for shorthand. I was thinking about this when I went to tag an intersex and a male having sex, so this'll be a irritation, or even a problem judging how many bad taggers are on this site...

How about you just accept the tags that are currently in use.

No offense, but nobody cares if you or your trans friend is offended. I don't really care if your trans friend finds it insulting. Why should I?

AKBAR_THE_CORNCOB said:
How about you just accept the tags that are currently in use.

No offense, but nobody cares if you or your trans friend is offended. I don't really care if your trans friend finds it insulting. Why should I?

I'm not a sjw, in fact quite the opposite, and even I think there should be a better term than cuntboy. It just doesn't sound right and if there is one thing I do not like, that is to be rude to random people. When I use the term cuntboy I feel I am calling them a cunt.
It's not a sjw issue, more of a "should have picked a better term to start with" issue.

AKBAR_THE_CORNCOB said:
How about you just accept the tags that are currently in use.

We alias tags to similar but different terms all the time, for non "SJW" reasons. Are cuntboy and dickgirl the best tags for the job? No, and NMNY has said as much.

AKBAR_THE_CORNCOB said:
How about you just accept the tags that are currently in use.

No offense, but nobody cares if you or your trans friend is offended. I don't really care if your trans friend finds it insulting. Why should I?

Careful, friend, you're travelling down the road Flammie was. Rather that harsh "Why should I care?"s try adding something useful to the conversation to support your side. How do you find the word "Cunt" to not be a derogatory term?

Chaser said:
I'm not a sjw, in fact quite the opposite, and even I think there should be a better term than cuntboy. It just doesn't sound right and if there is one thing I do not like, that is to be rude to random people. When I use the term cuntboy I feel I am calling them a cunt.
It's not a sjw issue, more of a "should have picked a better term to start with" issue.

I really couldnt have put it better myself. Thank you.

Ah so I think that Intersex_male and intersex_female!are the way we go from here probably yeah?

With the male/female part referring to the body type and intersex codifier relating to the alternate genitals.

Weve had a lot of people vote for being ok with the intersex_ tags in the past.

If people are fine with it. Im fine with it. I still prefer the other proposed tags but!

Yeah I can back up and get behind Intersex_*male/female

Crispix said:
Here's a search from furaffinity where people can free-form tag their own characters with literally whatever terms they desire:
http://i.imgur.com/klcFBrZ.png

Ko-san said:
WOW! There are more "cuntboy" posts then "dickgirl" posts and "transexual" has a fraction of those. There are a ton of transgender posts but those are for transformation pictures.

http://imgur.com/a/JrYD4

GDelscribe said:
You do realize using furaffinity isnt a good example either right?

Of those examples a good 90% of them are likely commissions. An artist posting a commission of someones character with a slur tag is very different from someone uploading art of their own character and using it.

@GDelscribe that's a pretty big assumption. I think your failing to see the point. Which is to show that people are using it, at lest not with the intentions to offend.

Furthermore if we don't distinguish between fictional sexes, and real world genders.(and gender and sex in general) We would just end up cementing cuntboy and dickgirl as synonyms for transgendered people. Which is far more damaging than cuntboy and dickgirls current use.

Cuntboy and dickgirl are vulgar words. But currently these are a widely integrated in porn-lingo. Just like words like slut, bitch, faggot, sissy etc. Which used outside in "the real world" would offend people. It's all about the context and situation.

AKBAR_THE_CORNCOB said:
How about you just accept the tags that are currently in use.

No offense, but nobody cares if you or your trans friend is offended. I don't really care if your trans friend finds it insulting. Why should I?

nobody here is expecting cis people find it offensive because its not an slur for cis people. its offensive for me and other trans people because its slur for us.

and honestly its kinda assholey to not care that something is hurting someone else just because it doesnt hurt you personally. its basic human decency to try to not intentionally hurt others.

slyroon said:
Just like words like slut, bitch, faggot, sissy etc. Which used outside in "the real world" would offend people. It's all about the context and situation.

In the context of e621, it's worth mentioning that slut is invalidated, bitch is aliased to female, faggot has no posts, fag has been aliased to male/male, and sissy has been aliased to girly.

So, is there a cap on how long threads can get before they get auto locked or will they continue until resolved/people stop responding/there is a manual lock?

Pretty sure once people realize nothing's going to be changed, they'll stop replying, give it two more pages.

Clawdragons said:
In the context of e621, it's worth mentioning that slut is invalidated, bitch is aliased to female, faggot has no posts, fag has been aliased to male/male, and sissy has been aliased to girly.

Also that shemale was aliased to dickgirl because the latter was considered less offensive.
I know that isn't totally in context but I've wanted to point it out all thread.

Furrin_Gok said:
Careful, friend, you're travelling down the road Flammie was. Rather that harsh "Why should I care?"s try adding something useful to the conversation to support your side. How do you find the word "Cunt" to not be a derogatory term?

No, actually, his post was remarkably realistic and somehow far more polite than what that person thought was apt.

Clawdragons said:
In the context of e621, it's worth mentioning that slut is invalidated, bitch is aliased to female, faggot has no posts, fag has been aliased to male/male, and sissy has been aliased to girly.

Its a precedent set that we should keep up with for sure. Theres no need or reason to alienate users and this is gonna help out with some of the politica behind why some artists wont post here.

GDelscribe said:
Theres no need or reason to alienate users and this is gonna help out with some of the politica behind why some artists wont post here.

It that case: can we ban images of Muhammad, Cub and rape.

CuteCoughDeath said:
It that case: can we ban images of Muhammad, Cub and rape.

Changing the words we use to describe things and actually banning images with questionable content are not comparable.

We've been off on enough pointless tangents, please don't try to drag us down another unrelated avenue.

Intersex and Hermaphroditism

Hm,

I did some digging (read: visited the Intersex Wikipedia page, and it turns out that herm(-aphrodite) may not be synonymous with intersex anymore.

Quote from above link, emphasis/linebreaks mine:

Not really sure how this would apply to e621's definition of intersex as an umbrella tag for the 4 'intersex' sex tags ('cuntboy', 'dickgirl', herm, maleherm),

But it may be interesting to note; Especially in relation to:

https://e621.net/forum/show/197260
https://e621.net/forum/show/197261
https://e621.net/forum/show/197271
and others.

Thoughts about it are welcome

titanmelon said:

Intersex and Hermaphroditism

Hm,

I did some digging (read: visited the Intersex Wikipedia page, and it turns out that herm(-aphrodite) may not be synonymous with intersex anymore.

Quote from above link, emphasis/linebreaks mine:

A hermaphrodite is a plant or animal that has both male and female reproductive organs. Until the mid-20th century, "hermaphrodite" was used synonymously with "intersex".[28]

Currently, hermaphroditism is not to be confused with intersex, as the former refers only to a specific phenotypical presentation of sex organs and the latter to more complex combination of phenotypical and genotypical presentation.

Using "hermaphrodite" to refer to intersex individuals is considered to be stigmatizing and misleading.[92]

In reality, hermaphrodite is used for animal and vegetal species in which the possession of both ovaries and testes is either serial or concurrent, and for living organisms without such gonads but present binary form of reproduction, which is part of the typical life history of those species; intersex has come to be used when this is not the case.

Not really sure how this would apply to e621's definition of intersex as an umbrella tag for the 4 'intersex' sex tags ('cuntboy', 'dickgirl', herm, maleherm),

But it may be interesting to note; Especially in relation to:

https://e621.net/forum/show/197260
https://e621.net/forum/show/197261
https://e621.net/forum/show/197271
and others.

Thoughts about it are welcome

Looks like it's simply saying "hermaphrodite is a normal sex same as male and female, and intersex is for anything that isn't medically normal" and that "intersex isn't for anything that isn't male or female, but for anything that isn't normal among a species."

forum #186512

titanmelon said:

Intersex and Hermaphroditism

Hm,

I did some digging (read: visited the Intersex Wikipedia page, and it turns out that herm(-aphrodite) may not be synonymous with intersex anymore.

Quote from above link, emphasis/linebreaks mine:

A hermaphrodite is a plant or animal that has both male and female reproductive organs. Until the mid-20th century, "hermaphrodite" was used synonymously with "intersex".[28]

Currently, hermaphroditism is not to be confused with intersex, as the former refers only to a specific phenotypical presentation of sex organs and the latter to more complex combination of phenotypical and genotypical presentation.

Using "hermaphrodite" to refer to intersex individuals is considered to be stigmatizing and misleading.[92]

In reality, hermaphrodite is used for animal and vegetal species in which the possession of both ovaries and testes is either serial or concurrent, and for living organisms without such gonads but present binary form of reproduction, which is part of the typical life history of those species; intersex has come to be used when this is not the case.

Not really sure how this would apply to e621's definition of intersex as an umbrella tag for the 4 'intersex' sex tags ('cuntboy', 'dickgirl', herm, maleherm),

But it may be interesting to note; Especially in relation to:

https://e621.net/forum/show/197260
https://e621.net/forum/show/197261
https://e621.net/forum/show/197271
and others.

Thoughts about it are welcome

In a shellnut. Its basically what I explained earlier. Herm is something that has both sets of working genitalia that are completely developed.

Intersex has only one or only partly has pieces of both.

Seeing as there has been no new discussion in the topic and The other votes have been very clear on the direction pople want to go.

Intersex_male and intersex_female seem to be the options we have right now.

Though I lament the overall distaste for the andromorph gynomorph tags im glad we have something common to go with.

GDelscribe said:
Seeing as there has been no new discussion in the topic and The other votes have been very clear on the direction pople want to go.

Intersex_male and intersex_female seem to be the options we have right now.

Though I lament the overall distaste for the andromorph gynomorph tags im glad we have something common to go with.

Then go bring it up to the admins and see if they're willing to change it. There is no progress to be made by commenting, anymore, so if you think the admins are willing to change, then PM them.

I still think there are more pressing matters then tag names, so I'm still gonna hold off on this vote, and work on my projects.

GDelscribe said:
What about andromorph gynomorph is hideous exactly. They dont sound that bad and honestly if the only objection is "they sound wierd" thats ok cause it will be something people can get used to

The question people should be asking themselves is should this site be easy to understand to newcomers or will it have its own lingo where newcomers aren't welcome? Andromorph to me sounds like some type of android transformer. Someone casually visiting the site will have no clue what those words mean. Though as long as cuntboy and dickgirl are still searchable than it hopefully won't be too big of a deal. The more odd words we use the less people will want to post new images.

GDelscribe said:As Ive stated over 20 times now. Ive auggested two tags that work incredibly well and have no problems with them.

The problem with those terms is most of the people here aren't medical professionals. Cuntboys are both male-like shape and female-like shape so both andromorph and gynomorph can apply to those images unless you take the time to study exactly what those words mean. You even confirmed that they're confusing:

GDelscribe said:
Though I personally still find them extremely straightforward I can understand that they could be misconstrued in that way.

To be honest I had initially thought on the same way as you about them and was going to suggest them being used in reverse for that reason as it felt like a more prompt logical response to the criteria.

That said. The description of the words themself do make it easy to remember.

gyno– "woman" + morph "shape
Andro- "man" + morph "shape"

The simple idea of using words to indicate the opposite of what they actually mean means they're far, far too confusing to use. Cuntboys have both woman and man shapes. From my understanding of the anatomically_correct_XXXX thread, why has no one proposed tags like: male_body, female_body, and anatomically_correct_body but are instead trying to make up new words? New words are completely not user friendly.

GDelscribe said:
Ive brought the term up to the people who are directly being affected by the current tags and they seem to unilaterally agree that they are ok.

The tags are just sitting on the site next to the images. I suggest you recommend counseling to those people if random words not being applied to them and in a place they never need to visit are causing real issues with their life. I've had a lot of terms thrown out at me from people, they change how I perceive those people not how I perceive myself.

Just because others havent used those terms en masse doesnt mean we cant be the first to set a good example with you know ?

Or we could be at the forefront were we don't take insults from descriptive words. Insults come from the intentions of the speaker, not from the words themselves. Any insult you find from a tag cloud is insult you created. I don't know anyone who considers a dictionary as insulting yet you can find almost every 'insulting' word in it. Intention matters.

Cuntboy is a male with a cunt. That's a physical description. Cunt applied to a person is a description of a personality. Cunt and cuntboy are two completely different terms. Calling someone a cuntboy does not need to imply they're a cunt unless you're adding that label in your mind or if the rest of the sentence or spoken inflection implies the personality. Cuntboy as a word by itself doesn't mean the personality.

Andromorph used to be in used on this site. I don't know why it was removed, but I'd guess its because this is an English site and not a Greek one. The best option is to move to object meta-tagging (this thing in the image has these attributes), but that would require too much of a change to e621.

Edit: I was jumping through the pages and it seems I missed a couple. I didn't understand the vulgar argument. Since the proposals include keeping cuntboy/dickgirl as aliased, any new terms didn't make the site less vulgar since the original terms still exist. I had incorrectly thought aliased tags were still visible. They're not.

I was wondering when you were gonna bump this.

Ok this needs to be said. And I don't care if it makes a bunch of sjws here mad but it needs to be said.

GDelscribe said:
I know this has come up countless times probably but its a problem. A big one honestly and the fact that the community is still using terms like Dickgirl and Cuntboy (really?) In this day and age is kinda apalling.

It's not. They've became de facto terms in any porn community. They are not necessarily derogatory because they are no offensive at all to the subject itself.

GDelscribe said:
What we need are tags that are still straight and to the point falling under the twys guidelines.

Id suggested transboy (to replace cuntboy) and transgirl (and replace dickgirl) but was shot down by the previous admin under the principles of "tag what you know."

Because cuntboys are not necessarily transboys and dickgirls are not necessarily transgirls. The respective former are usually (and quite literally) born in their correct gender but also with the incorrect genitalia. The respective latter are born in the incorrect gender entirely.

GDelscribe said:
We know however for a fact that this site runs on "Tag what you see" rules and for the mostpart if a character is gender bent to have those different/extra parts its safe to say they fall under the umbrella of what you would call transgender as after all that simply means anything that is not the birth or creation assigned gender.

They're not genderbent, and they're not trans. They just have different parts than the rest of their natural body.

GDelscribe said:
Its 2016. We need to move on from these outdated insulting terms.

[CURRENT YEAR]. (I just had to say it.)

GDelscribe said:
Transgirl would replace dickgirl. Usage is the same as the current dickgirl wiki entry. A character with boobs and an otherwise female ish body and a penis+balls.

Intersex should replace any instance of the term futanari if it hasnt already as futanari specifically refers to female gwnitals where the clitoris has been replaced with a penis.

Transboy would replace cuntboy for the same reasons as above. An overall male body with no breasts and a vulva/vagina.

Herm is still an applicable term and refers to characters with both sets of genitals. A penis, balls and a vagina/vulva.

Except the terms you are complaining about do not match these dictionary terms. What you are pursuing is impossible and ridiculous, as these are all terms with little to no pejorative intention commonly used in any pornographic or furry community. Nobody will drop what language they're using to conform to your request. It's ridiculous.

I'm sorry. I just cannot allow this place to become a SJW playground.

Adding into this
From my knowledge, trans-* implies a sex change has taken place, or mental gender is different than physical gender, as such, I am against use of trans-* for a replacement of cuntboy and dickgirl. I feel it would be improperly tagged as said characters may have the same mental gender as their physical gender, and said characters may have been born that way.
I am however, for gynomorph and andromorph, if it is decided to be changed.
While I do agree that they sound weird and will take time to get used to(although users can still tag cuntboy or dickgirl while they are learning because they will be aliased), same effect happened when people first learned the term cuntboy and dickgirl.
However I am still more in favour of a separate gender category without terms and only seen physical information.

At this point, further discussion is just inviting arguements and red marks. The people for changing the tags have made their case, the people against changing the tags have made their case. Lets just leave it to the mods.