Thirtyeight said:
At this point, further discussion is just inviting arguements and red marks. The people for changing the tags have made their case, the people against changing the tags have made their case. Lets just leave it to the mods.

That's not how that works.

The only person who got a red mark here was Mana Dragon Flammie, and that was because he was refused to stop baiting and derailing the thread even after being directly told to do so.

Red marks are not given out on a whim like that. You don't get one for positively contributing to a thread. I don't know why you'd think that, at all.

Clawdragons said:
That's not how that works.

The only person who got a red mark here was Mana Dragon Flammie, and that was because he was refused to stop baiting and derailing the thread even after being directly told to do so.

Red marks are not given out on a whim like that. You don't get one for positively contributing to a thread. I don't know why you'd think that, at all.

I'm sorry, I should have spoken more clearly.
This thread, like threads on religion or politics, seems like it can only end one way. With two or more people arguing long past mod's repeated warnings.

That's how it seems to me, anyway.

Chaser said:
Adding into this
From my knowledge, trans-* implies a sex change has taken place, or mental gender is different than physical gender, as such, I am against use of trans-* for a replacement of cuntboy and dickgirl. I feel it would be improperly tagged as said characters may have the same mental gender as their physical gender, and said characters may have been born that way.
I am however, for gynomorph and andromorph, if it is decided to be changed.
While I do agree that they sound weird and will take time to get used to(although users can still tag cuntboy or dickgirl while they are learning because they will be aliased), same effect happened when people first learned the term cuntboy and dickgirl.
However I am still more in favour of a separate gender category without terms and only seen physical information.

Admittedly you have a point, everything might seem wierd at first but, once people have a chance to try it out it wouldn't be too hard to learn them.

Especially considering there's no harm in trying its always worth a shot.

Happyfaec said:
Ok this needs to be said. And I don't care if it makes a bunch of sjws here mad but it needs to be said.

I'm sorry. I just cannot allow this place to become a SJW playground.

IDK where you're getting "SJW" from but basically this is basic respect I'm pushing for here. This isn't some sort of ridiculous agenda conspired or created by imaginary villainous 'sjws' this is about treating people and their characters with a modicum of decency and not using derogatory and vulgar terms when we can use something better. NMNY has even said as much earlier.

GDelscribe said:
IDK where you're getting "SJW" from but basically this is basic respect I'm pushing for here.

No offence, but this thread is the first time I've ever seen dickgirl or cuntboy being called derogatory or offensive.

And it was you who did it.

This is a porn site where there are shitting nipples and the biggest of your concerns is gender "slurs?"

Transboy/transgirl?
What if said charicter is not trans and was born a Cuntboy or a Dickgirl? What then?

TheKvltGoat said:
This is a porn site where there are shitting nipples and the biggest of your concerns is gender "slurs?"

First_World_Problems.gif

hslugs said:
No offence, but this thread is the first time I've ever seen dickgirl or cuntboy being called derogatory or offensive.

And it was you who did it.

i have a feeling that you didnt read much of this thread. like i said earlier in the thread, i have had people calling me "disgusting cuntboy" upon finding out about my gender identity. also there has been other trans people voicing their opinion on this thread and all of us agreed that they are slurs. they are not extremely common slurs but still slurs. also i'd recommend checking out this

also i apologize for my harshness if the "no offense" was not meant to be sarcasm

Mutisija said:
they are not extremely common slurs but still slurs.

You could call somebody a disgusting redhead offensively. This won't make every use of the word "redhead" by anyone around offensive. Even if it is kind of offensive is some rural communities.

Now if you start insisting "redhead" is a slur, and ask anyone to use erythrocephalous out of respect for redheads, you won't get respect for redheads. If you're presistent enough, you will make the word into a real slur. And mark what it describes as despicable as well. Because sure it's wrong if you need to censor it out.

That's why SJW. GDelscribe says it's about basic respect. But I see him trying to make a relatively neutral word into a slur.

I understand that OP wants to progress away from terms with "Cunt" and "Dick" in them. But there really is no more of a better term for them in my viewpoint... Does not seem too offensive either.

These are the selected words for the tagging system, I don't think they should be changed at all.

If it really bothers OP that much, I would recommend a word with mods/admins about it instead of shoving the typical "ITS 2016 PEOPLE" down our throats. I'm sure if the Admins do agree to changing the official tag, then they would make an announcement. (I'm sure they'll disagree anyways)

I'm not going to post on this thread anymore but I do hope that this post is helpful in some way or another.

hslugs said:
You could call somebody a disgusting redhead offensively. This won't make every use of the word "redhead" by anyone around offensive. Even if it is kind of offensive is some rural communities.

Now if you start insisting "redhead" is a slur, and ask anyone to use erythrocephalous out of respect for redheads, you won't get respect for redheads. If you're presistent enough, you will make the word into a real slur. And mark what it describes as despicable as well. Because sure it's wrong if you need to censor it out.

That's why SJW. GDelscribe says it's about basic respect. But I see him trying to make a relatively neutral word into a slur.

Again, please read the thread earlier. We've already discussed this and I'm not making anything into a slur. It already /is/ a slur.

We don't use the N word or any variations of it to describe black skinned humans. This is no different. Again. I will reiterate,
It doesn't matter if you don't think it's a slur. People are impacted negatively by it. Its a slur.

FURTHERMORE, we're already past this discussion as NMNY has already said in the post Mutisija linked, they agree that they're vulgar terms.

TheKvltGoat said:
I understand that OP wants to progress away from terms with "Cunt" and "Dick" in them. But there really is no more of a better term for them in my viewpoint... Does not seem too offensive either.

These are the selected words for the tagging system, I don't think they should be changed at all.

If it really bothers OP that much, I would recommend a word with mods/admins about it instead of shoving the typical "ITS 2016 PEOPLE" down our throats. I'm sure if the Admins do agree to changing the official tag, then they would make an announcement. (I'm sure they'll disagree anyways)

I'm not going to post on this thread anymore but I do hope that this post is helpful in some way or another.

We've suggested both Intersex_Male/Female and Andromorph/Gynomorph, both of which have gotten votes for them so. There are clearly other words and words that do work better than what we have because frankly dickgirl could be just as confusing as Gynomorph if you want to get down to it.

It doesn't just bother me. Its a problem that's an issue for a lot of people here.

hslugs said:
No offence, but this thread is the first time I've ever seen dickgirl or cuntboy being called derogatory or offensive.

And it was you who did it.

And maybe the reason you haven't seen many people complain about it before (It has been at least six times now over the years) is either you weren't paying attention to the forums or the fact that people will automatically descend on them call them an SJW for wanting to be treated with basic decency and then rail on them for 11+ pages about how their claims are invalid and just "PC Pandering."

Nah.

Just because you were unaware doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

TheKvltGoat said:
I'm sure if the Admins do agree to changing the official tag, then they would make an announcement. (I'm sure they'll disagree anyways)

That's already been discussed. Here's the post by the head admin: https://e621.net/forum/show/197482.

What's left to do is to figure out better alternatives to the current tags. Personally, I'd suggest letting this sit for a couple of months. To see if the forum regulars get used to the andromorph/gynomorph terms. Those seem to be opposed simply because of the unfamiliarity, but we have many tags that are unfamiliar to most new users: heterochromia, shota, ahegao, *_sclera, etc. Yet most get used to those easily enough.

But if those two are out of question, then I suppose I'll vote for intersex_* (altersex_*?) instead.

*sigh* so...i guess we're still debating a change of terminology so as to avoid offending and/or triggering people, huh?

guess i shouldn't be surprised. i mean, it's not going to end really. once this has been settled someones quite likely to start up another thread about more words that need changing.

it's actually rather disturbing how strongly people seem to let words affect them these days.

GDelscribe said:
It doesn't just bother me. Its a problem that's an issue for a lot of people here.

and yet you made this thread and continue to prolong it. yes, in some way it DOES bother you.

some words that can, yet aren't necessarily being used as slurs, are being used to adequately describe things. yet, because said word offends and/or trigger some people (because they let such things happen to them), you feel the need to see them changed. so yes, it does bother you. and no, it's not JUST a matter of respect (that much is plain for all to see).

i really don't see how any word, when not being used in an offensive context and/or implication, can be offensive to anyone unless they choose to be offended by it. just saying or using a word alone doesn't make it offensive to anyone. if used in an offensive tone (spoken), context, or implies something negative, THEN it is offensive. but when used merely to describe something? the only thing taking offense to it in that case is you.

i don't honestly know why i'm even bothering to make this post since it's not going to do jack squat one way or the other. is there a way to blacklist a forum thread by any chance? the pointless...offendedness of this thread offends my mind.

treos said:
and yet you made this thread and continue to prolong it. yes, in some way it DOES bother you.

Treos, I think you misunderstood what he said. He didn't say that it doesn't bother him, he said that it doesn't just bother him.

In other words, he said that it bothers him and others.

Just seemed to be a slight misreading there (I misread it at first too, and thought he said "It just doesn't bother me", hence why I think I know where the confusion is).

Clawdragons said:
Treos, I think you misunderstood what he said. He didn't say that it doesn't bother him, he said that it doesn't just bother him.

In other words, he said that it bothers him and others.

Just seemed to be a slight misreading there (I misread it at first too, and thought he said "It just doesn't bother me", hence why I think I know where the confusion is).

i see that now but don't really care enough to give a correction. oh, but i did see this post just now. post #927473, looks like someones inner tumblr is showing. if the description is anything to go by.

"Character is male, uses he/him pronouns."

aka "Character is *insert "gender" (not sex as that is a social construct and doesn't exist) here*, uses *chosen randomly chosen pronouns*"

Genjar said:
That's already been discussed. Here's the post by the head admin:

What's left to do is to figure out better alternatives to the current tags. Personally, I'd suggest letting this sit for a couple of months. To see if the forum regulars get used to the andromorph/gynomorph terms. Those seem to be opposed simply because of the unfamiliarity, but we have many tags that are unfamiliar to most new users: heterochromia, shota, ahegao, *_sclera, etc. Yet most get used to those easily enough.

But if those two are out of question, then I suppose I'll vote for intersex_* (altersex_*?) instead.

Honestly it would be best to let people get used to the concept of andromorph/gynomorph, I feel like if we got like some kinda test run or tried it out for a while it would be fine for people.

I also am fine with altersex_* and intersex_*male/female

treos said:
i see that now but don't really care enough to give a correction. oh, but i did see this post just now. post #927473, looks like someones inner tumblr is showing. if the description is anything to go by.

"Character is male, uses he/him pronouns."

aka "Character is *insert "gender" (not sex as that is a social construct and doesn't exist) here*, uses *chosen randomly chosen pronouns*"

The person who owns the character is trans afaik, and is case point and proof of the validity of this discussion as it is.

treos said:

"Character is male, uses he/him pronouns."

Seems reasonable, given that the image clearly must, per TWYS, be tagged female.
If an artist wants to give context that's fine IMO, as long as they don't expect it to affect the tagging rules.

My biggest complaint about Andromorph/Gynomorph is that I'm having trouble associating what images they would be used on. Andromorph would be for male bodies with female reproductive systems and Gynomorph would be used for female bodies with male reproductive systems, correct?

GDelscribe said:
We don't use the N word or any variations of it to describe black skinned humans. This is no different.

Yes exactly. You don't use the N word anymore because it has been made into a slur and sealed in that state. The likes of you have already made a perfectly neutral word "black" nearly impossible to use neutrally, with exactly the same reasoning. And now you're trying to do it with "dickgirl".

If you don't like slurs, work on removing their offensive status. What you're doing is the opposite. Spreading slurs, offense and derision.

FURTHERMORE, we're already past this discussion as NMNY has already said in the post Mutisija linked, they agree that they're vulgar terms.

Well if you put the "unacceptably vulgar" plank above "dick" and "cunt" (or was it "boy" and "girl"?), how about auto-blacklisting all vulgarity, depravity and perversion tagged explicit here first? Sure a lot more people get offended by that.

And beats me it was no-one else but NotMeNotYou who said that nope, no way in hell esix's gonna get default blacklists, sure that'd be cruel to prevent random strangers from seeing farts and scat and rape and whatever cause how else would they get their new fetishes right? Nah let's get rid of dicks and cunts insteady, those vulgar words.

Genjar said:
Those seem to be opposed simply because of the unfamiliarity, but we have many tags that are unfamiliar to most new users: heterochromia, shota, ahegao, *_sclera, etc. Yet most get used to those easily enough.

Perhaps the opposite, anyone familiar with the words would see the problem right away. There's nothing wrong with "different-color"ed (eyes), that's exactly what's being described. But "gynomorph" means "woman-shaped". Is that a feminine-looking boy? Would you call a girl with a penis "woman-shaped"? How about a girl without penis? A boy that looks like a boy except for woman-shaped equipment down there?

FWIW I changed my mind awhile ago and am -1 on both (andromorph/gynomorph) and intersex_*. It should be clear that neither of these pairs of terms are as clear as what we already have.

I went on a quick look for altersex_* but didn't find the post explaining that idea, so I'm 0 (neutral) on that.

On page 6, there is a fundamentally different idea discussed by Titanmelon and Ko-san. It seems like it -might- be quite explicit and clear; but it needs a better explanation -- I'm certainly not confident I understand all of it. It seems to have a few nice properties but IMO needs to address -simple- searchability (will people just use aliases?).

That said, I'm not exactly +1 on this idea either; I'd want some kind of way to guarantee there won't be a later combinatoric explosion of tags, and it also seems kind of ugly.

hslugs said:
Yes exactly. You don't use the N word anymore because it has been made into a slur and sealed in that state. The likes of you have already made a perfectly neutral word "black" nearly impossible to use neutrally, with exactly the same reasoning. And now you're trying to do it with "dickgirl".

If you don't like slurs, work on removing their offensive status. What you're doing is the opposite. Spreading slurs, offense and derision

agreed. removing the negativity surrounding certain words, rather than perpetuating and potentially worsening it over time, would be a good thing to do as it would make them more neutral over time. every time someone says a word is a "slur" and use it as such, they are feeding the negative connotations surrounding said word, thus making it seem increasingly worse than it really is over time.

Thirtyeight said:
My biggest complaint about Andromorph/Gynomorph is that I'm having trouble associating what images they would be used on. Andromorph would be for male bodies with female reproductive systems and Gynomorph would be used for female bodies with male reproductive systems, correct?

Thats right yep!

Also hslugs Im not gonna even dignify that. If your logical response is we ahould use the N word for any reason I honestly dont know what to say to that.

Thats the most disgusting thing thats come up in the thread so far.

Furthermore idk what youre wven talking about with a default blacklist. Thats never been a point at all in the thread. So wither you fundamentally misundertand the intent or youre intentionally derailing it.

GDelscribe said:
Also hslugs Im not gonna even dignify that. If your logical response is we ahould use the N word for any reason I honestly dont know what to say to that.

Thats the most disgusting thing thats come up in the thread so far.

well, can't say i didn't see that coming.

edit: oh and heres an interesting article on the topic of concept creep. i wonder how many words will be considers slurs and offensive until the whole language is offensive. or rather, how long it'd take for things to prog...regress that far.

treos said:
well, can't say i didn't see that coming.

edit: oh and heres an interesting article on the topic of concept creep. i wonder how many words will be considers slurs and offensive until the whole language is offensive. or rather, how long it'd take for things to prog...regress that far.

Nothing lasts forever. The PC craze will eventually end, and society will start swinging the other way.

hslugs said:
Well if you put the "unacceptably vulgar" plank above "dick" and "cunt" (or was it "boy" and "girl"?), how about auto-blacklisting all vulgarity, depravity and perversion tagged explicit here first? Sure a lot more people get offended by that.

And beats me it was no-one else but NotMeNotYou who said that nope, no way in hell esix's gonna get default blacklists, sure that'd be cruel to prevent random strangers from seeing farts and scat and rape and whatever cause how else would they get their new fetishes right? Nah let's get rid of dicks and cunts insteady, those vulgar words.

While I don't see "Dick" as being offensive and only slightly vulgar, "Cunt" is definitely an offensive one. It's kind of funny that "Pussyboy" and "Vagentleman" were rejected, they actually would have worked.
However, Nimmy did say "It's not up for debate," so just accept that they're treated as offensive here, man.

I already know I shouldn't be re-entering the fray when doing so last time got me neg'd and then temp banned... but I am just going to say that "offense" like "art" and "obscenity" is subjective...

Now... let's think for a moment. Because one person or a handful of people think something >isn't< art, should it not get to have that title? Just because one person or a handful of people think something is "obscene" it shouldn't get to exist, even as a drawing? And because one person or a handful of people think something is "offensive" it should not get to exist?

We could argue this kind of logic til we're all blue in the face, or til we have a society that just bans >everything< because it will either upset someone, trigger someone, or inspire them to go do something insane... no more human language at all because something in it will offend someone. No more movies because the imagery might inspire someone to do something reprehensible, no music either...

That's not a society I want to live in, but I see things headed down that path the more I see PC Police try to enforce their personal standards of what is and isn't acceptable. I see things headed that way the more I hear about comedians being dragged through the mud by SJWs for their >jokes< ... I see things headed that way the more I see SJWs turn into clones of disbarred laywer, Jack Thompson... "Video games are all murder simulators, the Columbine killers ~TRAINED~ on DOOM!!!11" and especially no more rap music, which ironically, SJWs claim to love PoCs and yet, they would be the first to demand that any rap music that had "problematic language" be taken off store shelves, like the newer younger reincarnations of Tipper Gore and the PMRC (you know, the people we have to thank for the existence of those "advisory" stickers on albums with "bad words").

I am >not< that kind of person... I'm for freedom of speech, freedom of artistic expression, freedom of language. You can call that "old man yells at cloud" if you want to, but the more I see us seize up and forget the "sticks and stones" mantra, or forget that fantasies aren't reality... the more frightened I am about what the future holds for humanity.

I for one, refuse to go through life on a perpetual easter egg hunt for new things to be offended by, I'd prefer to work harder at >not< letting things offend me, because the second you allow someone else to offend you, you give up your own power over your emotions and hand it over to whoever, or whatever is offending you. When you're being trolled by a person or a thing - your reaction shouldn't be focused on the existence of that person or thing, but rather it should be focused on yourself and >why< your emotions were able to be hijacked and weaponized in the first place.

Vulcan Master: Emotions can be a powerful tool. To deny their existence is illogical. But you must learn to control them.

Young Tuvok: Why?

Vulcan Master: Do you wish to be taught?
Young Tuvok: I would question everything you say.
Vulcan Master: You would not be a worthy pupil otherwise.

No one is talking about banning any form of art. No one is saying that anything does not get to exist. No one is saying that certain images are not acceptable. That is not what this conversation is about.

What we are discussing is what the terminology we should be using for these things is. That's it. Censorship plays literally no role in this topic.

I don't know why this keeps getting brought up here. Literally no one has proposed censorship of any kind. Not one person.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
That's not a society I want to live in, but I see things headed down that path the more I see PC Police try to enforce their personal standards of what is and isn't acceptable. I see things headed that way the more I hear about comedians being dragged through the mud by SJWs for their >jokes< ... I see things headed that way the more I see SJWs turn into clones of disbarred laywer, Jack Thompson... "Video games are all murder simulators, the Columbine killers ~TRAINED~ on DOOM!!!11" and especially no more rap music, which ironically, SJWs claim to love PoCs and yet, they would be the first to demand that any rap music that had "problematic language" be taken off store shelves, like the newer younger reincarnations of Tipper Gore and the PMRC (you know, the people we have to thank for the existence of those "advisory" stickers on albums with "bad words").

I'm going to go ahead and put it bluntly.
The word we are trying to change on the site is, as far as I know, a fictional word that isn't used in real life, started by people who have 50 foot dicks and breasts the size of mountains.
You can still search and tag cuntboy if you choose, but it will auto-replace to which ever is the chosen word of the admins.
And as for the word, no one is being "triggered" by it, rather just, it's just not a very nice word.
To put it extremely bluntly, Lets say e621 was created back in about 1900. Black people were tagged with the N word. 1960 or 1970 comes and then a thread was created to change it, yet many people prefer to keep it. How would you feel if your character was a black person?
While I know racism isn't the same thing, this is sort of the situation we have with cuntboy. Some people prefer the old term, others prefer the new term.
The problem we have is the use of cunt, which is vulgar, in the gender.
We are just trying to find a word less vulgar. And as I said before, it really isn't a SJW issue, it's more of a "should have picked a better term to start with" issue.

The "issue" itself doesn't come off as a SJW issue when you put it that way, but the way the TC argues it it certainly does come off that way. Anyway, you guys should've just let this thread die. Nobody cares to further the discussion and TC has already been told to take their request to the admins if they want to attempt to have them changed. Talking about it here isn't going to do anything.

Ko-san said:
The "issue" itself doesn't come off as a SJW issue when you put it that way, but the way the TC argues it it certainly does come off that way. Anyway, you guys should've just let this thread die. Nobody cares to further the discussion and TC has already been told to take their request to the admins if they want to attempt to have them changed. Talking about it here isn't going to do anything.

nimmy already said that the change is okay.
we are still trying to decide what is the best alternative but people keep constantly derailing the discussion with arguing about if its actually offensive or not.

Mutisija said:
nimmy already said that the change is okay.
we are still trying to decide what is the best alternative but people keep constantly derailing the discussion with arguing about if its actually offensive or not.

Nobody is trying to decide anything. The discussion ended. Nobody has anything else to add. At this point, you people need to pick one and suggest it through the appropriate channels.

Ko-san said:
At this point, you people need to pick one and suggest it through the appropriate channels.

That's not actually necessary. The admins are plenty aware of this thread, suggesting something through the tag alias tool wouldn't do all that much, especially because we're not sure what the best option is.

Mutisija said:
nimmy already said that the change is okay.
we are still trying to decide what is the best alternative but people keep constantly derailing the discussion with arguing about if its actually offensive or not.

Basically this. I guess.

I personally think we should take a poll officially then.
From here on in let's vote.

If you don't have a vote to contribute either way thats ok, just lets please stop trying to derail the thread with nonsense about censorship or whether something is offensive or not. That discussion is over. And censorship was never an issue to begin with.

There were a lot of suggestions throughout the thread, Some simple. Some complicated. We all have our own ideas of what's best to go with. Here's the choices we came up with.

Transboy for CBoy and Transgirl for DGirl
Pros:
-Fundamentally innoffensive
-Straight and to the point, having the same usage as the words we already have with no thought needed.
-Least offensive to trans* individuals, mostly accurate with respect to real humans.
Cons:
-Not everyone's characters are trans and using this label would alienate some of those users
-Inaccurate tag for characters who were born that way
- Not necessarily accurate with respect to furries, does not sync with existing trans* related tags and possibly TWYS, could be some ambiguity for which to use

Andromorph for cboy and Gynomorph for dgirl.
Pros:
-Easy to Pick up and Learn
-Straight and to the point, meaning the same thing as the words we have already, Andromorph meaning Male body with female genitals and Gynomorph meaning Female body with Male Genitals
-Easy use of retagging the hermtags if necessary with androherm and gynoherm using the same conventions
-Non-offensive, some history of usage

Cons:
-Some people have raised that due to being not english, the words could be hard to learn
-Its possible they can be confused with each other

Intersex_male for cboy and Intersex_female for dgirl
Pros:
-Already used on the site and wouldn't take much time to integrate
-Objective
-Not slurs or vulgar
-Intersex portion helps clarify usage
Cons:
-Since it is already used on the site in relations to any character who has a nonstandard composition we'd be making some certain specific characters have a more ambiguous tag

Body Retag System

male: male_bodied_with_penis / male
female: female_bodied_with_pussy / female
cuntboy: male_bodied_with_pussy/vagina
dickgirl: female_bodied_with_penis
herm: female_bodied_herm
maleherm: male_bodied_herm
ambiguous_gender: ambiguous_sex

Pros:
-Takes literally all the complication out of things by being exceedingly simplistic and specific
-Objective, zero ambiguity, most obvious usage, neither vulgar nor offensive, follows the objective trend started with changing orientation tags to gender/gender tags
Cons:
-Unwieldy and exceedingly long, not to mention completely revamps the entire system which could be a lot more work than its worth
-Clunky, long, would probably require a change to the male and female tags as well

Retag System (Granberia)
cuntboy = intersex_v (intersex with vagina)
dickgirl = intersex_bp (intersex with breasts and penis)
herm = intersex_bpv (intersex with breasts and penis and vagina)
maleherm = intersex_pv (intersex with penis and vagina)

Pros:
Same as above but even more functional, as long as you remember keywords

Andropars/Androcunnus for Cboy and Gynopars/Gynophallus for Dgirl
Latinesque translations of current

Pros:
-Simple and to the point
-Not vulgar and unlikely to offend anyone
Cons:
-No history of usage,
-Gratuitous latin portmanteau which are literal translations of the current words, which could seem clunky to some people

Altersex_male for Cboy and Altersex_Female for dgirl
Pros
-Same as intersex above

Oshe for CBoy and Oson for Dgirl
Pros:
-Crude but its simple and effective, one word replacements without offense or any existing connotations
-Easy to remember because it's SHE has a vulva and the SON has balls.
-Not slurs or vulgar
-Used in some fantasy and sci-fi settings
Cons:
-Usage is not immediately intuitive
-Its possible one can be confused with the other
-Most would be unfamiliar with the terms

male_with_pussy and female_with_penis or alternatively masculine_with_pussy and feminine_with_penis
Pros:
-Straight simple to the point
-Innoffensive and objective
-Works on simple principals that the site already uses.
Cons:
-People will mistag it the same way they mis tag male/female currently, especially trans folks who this directly effects

I personally vote for Andromorph and Gynomorph.
-Changing my vote to Altersex

Transboy for CBoy and Transgirl for DGirl: 0
Andromorph for cboy and Gynomorph for dgirl.: 0
Intersex_male for cboy and Intersex_female for dgirl: 0
Body Retag System: 0
Body Retag System (Granberia): 0
Andropars/Androcunnus for Cboy and Gynopars/Gynophallus for Dgirl: 0
Oshe for CBoy and Oson for Dgirl: 0
Altersex_male for Cboy and Altersex_Female for dgirl: 5
male_with_pussy and female_with_penis: 6

GDelscribe said:
The Proposed words are
andromorph for cboy and gynomorph for dgirl.

Or, Intersex_male for cboy and Intersex_female for dgirl

So, you just ignore all of the other suggestions? I'm pretty sure there were 5 or 6 different ones. Also you forgot to include terms for herm and maleherm. Sorry, but I can't vote for either of those.

If you want to take on the role of arbiter and be taken seriously, you can have a personal opinion, but you must attempt to be unbiased and present all proposals in an equal manner and each proposal must be well described (but summarized, sure) in order for people to make educated votes.

Chessax said:
So, you just ignore all of the other suggestions? I'm pretty sure there were 5 or 6 different ones. Also you forgot to include terms for herm and maleherm. Sorry, but I can't vote for either of those.

If you want to take on the role of arbiter and be taken seriously, you can have a personal opinion, but you must attempt to be unbiased and present all proposals in an equal manner and each proposal must be well described (but summarized, sure) in order for people to make educated votes.

I don't mean to disinclude anything, just that these are the most common ones that came up again and again in the thread, and right now herm and male herm are a nonissue afaik.

I'll go scouring and add them to the post however.
Im also not going to obviously include anything that's also a slur or anything that's generally unacceptable to the community, for obvious reasons. No offense to anyone but that defeats the purpose.

I'm voting against this. Neither term will help the site, nor other sites. I've noticed artists use our terminology, and shorthand terminology (C-boy, M/M, etc.), that also post, or have their art, here. If we introduce and alias a new tag, they would have to get reacclimated to the new tag.

E621's biggest point is the ability to find an image, for the public, with easy to use tags. Searching is a big point against this: it's gonna be hard to search if you don't know what the word means, even when the wiki page can explain it.

In the former (Andromorph/genomorph), new taggers will not know what that means at all. To restate my previous paragraph: "is the ability to find (and tag now), an image, for the public (and editors),with easy to use tags." Searching and tagging needs to be very easy, lest people try to use the "easier" tags. Intersexes already suffer enough from TWYK, changing the name would dissuade from tagging them at all, be it a poster or an editor.

Ambiguity is against the second (intersex_*) choice. Who does this apply to? Is it based around genitals, or body type? Does my/the character apply to this? Herms have both, but if it's off body type, they're technically intersex_female. "Girly" cuntboys can be tagged intersex_female if crossdressing and covering happens in the image; this is pretty much specific to intersex_female, but there are many ways to botch up those tags because of our normal tag rules. So, second verse, same as the first, new users can get confused by the tag.

I've updated the list.

Also Siral, again, if you missed it it was mentioned earlier that you'll still be able to use both of the old tags to search with.

Its an alias, the old tags aren't being deleted.

As to your other issue, herms as I mentioned aren't really the problem here at all, either.

Either way I added the other choices in.

GDelscribe said:
I've updated the list.

Also Siral, again, if you missed it it was mentioned earlier that you'll still be able to use both of the old tags to search with.

Its an alias, the old tags aren't being deleted.

As to your other issue, herms as I mentioned aren't really the problem here at all, either.

Either way I added the other choices in.

You missed my point: who is going to know that Cuntboy/Dickgirl exists if it gets aliased? How will you find out what Andro/Geno means if you don't know what it means & what it changed from? How are you going to learn from vague terms?

Replacing known tags with vague ones and altering the meaning of the known will not help at all. Where will you piece together that C-boy means Andromorph, if it aliased into Andromorph? Cuntboy is literal, Andromorph is vague. Those two choices promote mistagging, the same way other vague tags worked (past tense), when they were aliased. You don't see "gay", or "straight" as tags because they meant multiple things, we instead aliased them into */*, a literal one that gets fixed when mistagged, instead of argued.

A coup de grace I'm going to use is you haven't thought, at all, about the third party. The new users, the artists, the people who don't regular this site. They are the ones we should be focusing on, because they are ones who can get those tags wrong. this is not going to help them, this will hinder the site's normal tagging method.

My vote still stands. If this isn't going to help the people we cater to, it's not going to help enough in my opinion.

Siral_Exan said:
You missed my point: who is going to know that Cuntboy/Dickgirl exists if it gets aliased? How will you find out what Andro/Geno means if you don't know what it means & what it changed from? How are you going to learn from vague terms?

Replacing known tags with vague ones and altering the meaning of the known will not help at all. Where will you piece together that C-boy means Andromorph, if it aliased into Andromorph? Cuntboy is literal, Andromorph is vague. Those two choices promote mistagging, the same way other vague tags worked (past tense), when they were aliased. You don't see "gay", or "straight" as tags because they meant multiple things, we instead aliased them into */*, a literal one that gets fixed when mistagged, instead of argued.

A coup de grace I'm going to use is you haven't thought, at all, about the third party. The new users, the artists, the people who don't regular this site. They are the ones we should be focusing on, because they are ones who can get those tags wrong. this is not going to help them, this will hinder the site's normal tagging method.

My vote still stands. If this isn't going to help the people we cater to, it's not going to help enough in my opinion.

This is why I like the tags Vagentleman and phallady. They drop the underage terms and the cunt term. I seriously don't see what's wrong with them.

Furrin_Gok said:
This is why I like the tags Vagentleman and phallady. They drop the underage terms and the cunt term. I seriously don't see what's wrong with them.

the biggest problem is that they sound like joke tags

Mutisija said:
the biggest problem is that they sound like joke tags

So? Once people try to replace them with the old tags, they will realize that they're the replacement tags and just accept it.

Furrin_Gok said:
So? Once people try to replace them with the old tags, they will realize that they're the replacement tags and just accept it.

but like it doesnt fit at all with this site's overall tagging style.

I still dont understand whats vague about it exactly. Either way Ive expanded the list to include more than those tags so please take a look and see if anything else suits your fancy.

At this point leaving the tags as is are really really. Not an option.

And Vagentleman and Phallady sound really awful. A lot of people dislike them outside of here and down the line they could lead to the exact problem we already have not to mention they just sound awkward and dont fit with the rest of the site which is why just like pussyboy which also sounds flat outlike an insult arent included on the list.

Not to mention Andro and Gyno are words that are fairly well known. Its also easy to look up in five seconds.

GDelscribe said:
I still dont understand whats vague about it exactly. Either way Ive expanded the list to include more than those tags so please take a look and see if anything else suits your fancy.

At this point leaving the tags as is are really really. Not an option.

And Vagentleman and Phallady sound really awful. A lot of people dislike them outside of here and down the line they could lead to the exact problem we already have not to mention they just sound awkward and dont fit with the rest of the site which is why just like pussyboy which also sounds flat outlike an insult arent included on the list.

Not to mention Andro and Gyno are words that are fairly well known. Its also easy to look up in five seconds.

Well, I'll retort with this first: there is always an option to abstain. Don't limit others to your views.

Your options are vague in that the *morph can be taken too literally, and thus can apply to things that aren't meant to be applied. "Male body? Well, he cross-dressing and genitals can't be seen, he might be an Andromorph (cuntboy)". People will also ignore it for simpler tags, that's why we had to alias them into cuntboy/Dickgirl. This has happened before, and artists have outright removed their art because their preferred gender terms (male/female) cannot apply, and they refuse to accept intersex terms.

For the latter, it's too ambiguous. My entire previous post says how: you can apply it to things that otherwise deserve other tags. Your concept of aliasing the tags means people have to take initiative to research, when they can instead rename them into something that pleases them. Even with the intersex part of the tags, people will avoid it, just as much as people try applying canon genders to the Charr and apply the known ages to the Yordles. People ignore tags in favor of their own...

You have even gone and tried changing tagging rules with body-type. We have tags set for that, the one I'll list that counters this is "girly", a feminine bodytype on a male. If what you wrote is true, all girly men can be argued Dickgirl because of flat_chested being valid for females as well (this can also imply young, but that's neither here nor there).

If a person is willing to vote with me: retain Cuntboy and Dickgirl (1), including my vote. It's pros are it's simple, literal and already used on other sites; it's cons are it is interpreted as vulgar.

GDelscribe said:
I still dont understand whats vague about it exactly. Either way Ive expanded the list to include more than those tags so please take a look and see if anything else suits your fancy.

At this point leaving the tags as is are really really. Not an option.

And Vagentleman and Phallady sound really awful. A lot of people dislike them outside of here and down the line they could lead to the exact problem we already have not to mention they just sound awkward and dont fit with the rest of the site which is why just like pussyboy which also sounds flat outlike an insult arent included on the list.

Not to mention Andro and Gyno are words that are fairly well known. Its also easy to look up in five seconds.

I still disagree. Andro and Gyno's raw meaning can be interpreted in the merged-words in either direction: It's Andro because it has a penis, or it's Andro because it's muscular?

The problem with Cuntboy was "Cunt" is vulgar and "Boy" is demeaning. "Vagina" isn't vulgar and "Man" isn't demeaning. There's literally no similarities in the problems presented here, you'll have to point out any new problems directly rather than just saying it will have problems.

Siral_Exan said:
Well, I'll retort with this first: there is always an option to abstain. Don't limit others to your views.

Your options are vague in that the *morph can be taken too literally, and thus can apply to things that aren't meant to be applied. "Male body? Well, he cross-dressing and genitals can't be seen, he might be an Andromorph (cuntboy)". People will also ignore it for simpler tags, that's why we had to alias them into cuntboy/Dickgirl. This has happened before, and artists have outright removed their art because their preferred gender terms (male/female) cannot apply, and they refuse to accept intersex terms.

With all due respect if you havent gotten the point thag the current existing terms are harmful in the first place than I dont know what has to be said to you to make you understand that.

If you dont have any willingness to accept that then theres no point is there?

Lastly. You and I both know that thats a hypothetical situation which happens right now with our current tags even so really its not an argument you can make. People are always going to screw up on TWYS its the nature of having a community driven tag system. Its why we have janitors and moderators to begin with.

Oh. One more thing. The other suggestions are all from other users. The only suggestions Ive personally made are Oson Oshe and Trans*

Furrin_Gok said:
I still disagree. Andro and Gyno's raw meaning can be interpreted in the merged-words in either direction: It's Andro because it has a penis, or it's Andro because it's muscular?

The problem with Cuntboy was "Cunt" is vulgar and "Boy" is demeaning. "Vagina" isn't vulgar and "Man" isn't demeaning. There's literally no similarities in the problems presented here, you'll have to point out any new problems directly rather than just saying it will have problems.

To be fair the exact same argument could be used on the current words. Its really easy to intentionally misrepresent things.

GDelscribe said:
With all due respect if you havent gotten the point thag the current existing terms are harmful in the first place than I dont know what has to be said to you to make you understand that.

If you dont have any willingness to accept that then theres no point is there?

Lastly. You and I both know that thats a hypothetical situation which happens right now with our current tags even so really its not an argument you can make. People are always going to screw up on TWYS its the nature of having a community driven tag system. Its why we have janitors and moderators to begin with.

To be fair the exact same argument could be used on the current words. Its really easy to intentionally misrepresent things.

"Cuntboy: A boy with a cunt." ...What's confusing about that?

Furrin_Gok said:
"Cuntboy: A boy with a cunt." ...What's confusing about that?

Nothing. Same as theres nothing confusing about andromorph gynomorph outside of the fact that theyre not english. Not to mention the andropars and other tags like androcunnus were suggested for that very reason you posit.

But anyone can take any word and bend it.

If I wanna go off the rails and say a cuntboy is a character who is an anthro pussy?

What is a dickgirl? Is that an ambulatory penis with breasts? And dont say that doesnt exist cause theres a flash on this site post #71909 that specifically centers on ambulatory genitalia. Complete with a mother and a father penis.

So.

Also muscularity has nothing to do with masculinity.

You are taking harm to this. The first party has taken harm to Cuntboy/Dickgirl. But the second (me and Furrin) and the third (everyone who hadn't commented and the admins that have chosen to not get involved) haven't gotten harmed by this. You are arguing against the people who are against, and the people who don't know/care.

You should be accepting that you are facing opposition. You are not listening, you instead retreat back to your argument instead of trying to adapt and defeat me and the second party's logic. You have not made a single point against the second party, and we've made it clear that there is a problem with your system. Accept that, and fix your system, lest it will crumble.

My hypotheticals are a reality. I've seen the tickets (on posts taken down) about our tagging system. I've seen the records, and you have one. I have two, and what's to stop others from repeating our mistakes? There are way to many records, even bans, over tagging to make generalizations about public decision. And I speak for the people that didn't know. Defeat my hypotheticals, and then you can safely say you have a solution. Until then, this is going to be a standstill between a party that wants change, and a party that thinks it won't help.

This arguing won't solve anything, everyone needs to be safely in agreement (or at least a majority) in the same party. If you want to, go ask an admin to see if you can't get the poll on the message board. That way, people can find out...

GDelscribe said:
Nothing. Same as theres nothing confusing about andromorph gynomorph outside of the fact that theyre not english. Not to mention the andropars and other tags like androcunnus were suggested for that very reason you posit.

But anyone can take any word and bend it.

If I wanna go off the rails and say a cuntboy is a character who is an anthro pussy?

What is a dickgirl? Is that an ambulatory penis with breasts? And dont say that doesnt exist cause theres a flash on this site post #71909 that specifically centers on ambulatory genitalia. Complete with a mother and a father penis.

So.

Also muscularity has nothing to do with masculinity.

You realize how ridiculous you sound? You cannot speak for others, only for yourself. The fact that people are voicing confusion with the word means, straight up: The word is confusing. You are basically calling us all liars by saying "Oh, no it isn't. It's not confusing at all!"

Siral_Exan said:
You are taking harm to this. The first party has taken harm to Cuntboy/Dickgirl. But the second (me and Furrin) and the third (everyone who hadn't commented and the admins that have chosen to not get involved) haven't gotten harmed by this. You are arguing against the people who are against, and the people who don't know/care.

You should be accepting that you are facing opposition. You are not listening, you instead retreat back to your argument instead of trying to adapt and defeat me and the second party's logic. You have not made a single point against the second party, and we've made it clear that there is a problem with your system. Accept that, and fix your system, lest it will crumble.

My hypotheticals are a reality. I've seen the tickets about our tagging system. I've seen the records, and you have one. I have two, and what's to stop others from repeating our mistakes? Defeat my hypotheticals, and then you can safely say you have a solution. Until then, this is going to be a standstill between a party that wants change, and a party that thinks it won't help.

I am not the only person who is directly harmed by this. Furthermore youre not an admin so I dont know exactly where youre getting off bringing up personal records.

And for your information in both cases of the record on my account there is nothing to imply dickgirl is a proper word to use but apparently the "inherently female" features of the "eyelashes" were enough to constitute the tag.

And frankly no offense but your only argument is "it wont help" thats not an argument. And Im not obligated to dismantle ridiculous hypothesis based on scenarios which are built on fallacy and mistakes to begin with.

Im not the one being unreasonable here.

That is me being an admin, you should stop trying to change the tagging rules to fit your favor. This has been aggravating, all I see is "I want this, not that", yet you're the only person it's effected. This argument is a tagging dispute now, and you are not accepting your opposition.

Furrin_Gok said:
This is why I like the tags Vagentleman and phallady. They drop the underage terms and the cunt term. I seriously don't see what's wrong with them.

If I had to put the suggested terms in order of preference, those two would be near the bottom. Vagentleman is too clunky, I'd even prefer shortened 'vagent' instead of that. ...and 'phallady' sounds like 'phail-lady'.

This is why this is an SJW case: you're the only person who has wounds over this, and people jump up in a "common" point. When people are trying to say no, you ignore their points.

It's not helping, it's hurting. It's hurting all of us now, wasting time because someone's got to be right. There is nothing left to say, other than listen...

Furrin_Gok said:
You realize how ridiculous you sound? You cannot speak for others, only for yourself. The fact that people are voicing confusion with the word means, straight up: The word is confusing. You are basically calling us all liars by saying "Oh, no it isn't. It's not confusing at all!"

There are other suggestions available.

Im not insulting anyone. Im not calling people liars.

The words are blunt and forward. Thats all Im saying. They get the job done. If you dont like that particular suggestion vote for something else. Body first. Junk second. Thats it thats as simple as it gets.

Theres no magical super complicated meaming behind it.

Why focus on one possible thing when theres over 4 other choices.

Genjar said:
If I had to put the suggested terms in order of preference, those two would be near the bottom. Vagentleman is too clunky, I'd even prefer shortened 'vagent' instead of that. ...and 'phallady' sounds like 'phail-lady'.

Hey yeah basically this. They sound really awful.

Siral_Exan said:
This is why this is an SJW case: you're the only person who has wounds over this, and people jump up in a "common" point. When people are trying to say no, you ignore their points.

It's not helping, it's hurting. It's hurting all of us now, wasting time because someone's got to be right. There is nothing left to say, other than listen...

Mutisija is a user who is also directly affected. Acting like theyre not there doesnt make them go away.

They don't show a record on all this, and I've been avoiding bringing real life problems on E6, because it will derail it. But, if you want to, I can show my SJW out with my problem on words; get them here, have them vote. Until then, this problem is about the tags on e6, not real life. Unless you're willing to say e6 is more important than my problem...

GDelscribe said:
With all due respect if you havent gotten the point thag the current existing terms are harmful in the first place than I dont know what has to be said to you to make you understand that.

*facepalm*

Furrin_Gok said:
You realize how ridiculous you sound? You cannot speak for others, only for yourself. The fact that people are voicing confusion with the word means, straight up: The word is confusing. You are basically calling us all liars by saying "Oh, no it isn't. It's not confusing at all!"

this and

Siral_Exan said:
This is why this is an SJW case: you're the only person who has wounds over this, and people jump up in a "common" point. When people are trying to say no, you ignore their points.

It's not helping, it's hurting. It's hurting all of us now, wasting time because someone's got to be right. There is nothing left to say, other than listen...

this: agreed

one person chooses to be offended and the system has to change to accommodate their views and opinions. that's what this world seems to steadily be moving towards. come to think of it, i think i saw a topic on reddit about something like that happening just the other day. oh! it wasn't reddit, it was a video AlphaOmegaSin made about a Cammy (streetfighter) cosplayer being told to cover up because a SINGLE person was offended. not a small or large group of people, a single person complained. now THAT is something that is offensive.

the first time i have ever heard of the terms "andromorph" and "gynomorph" was in this thread. no one uses those terms commonly thus the point that they may be confusing to newer users is a valid one.

was it ever clarified who exactly was getting so offended by the terms cuntboy or shemale/futa/etc.? cause, i doubt i've ever seen that come up in comments on pics of such characters...anywhere really.

GDelscribe said:
The words are blunt and forward.

No, they aren't. They're obtuse and indirect.

GDelscribe said:
If you dont like that particular suggestion vote for something else.

I've taken an look at your opening post and the only thing I see is "People who have undergone transexual operations should be how these get tagged." We have already pointed out the problem with trans- tags, and there is nothing else on that post, so I have no idea what this "List" is.

Theres no magical super complicated meaming behind it.

Likewise, there is no magical super simplified meaning behind it. Just because you understand what words that you made up mean, doesn't mean everybody can read your mind and realize "Oh hey these completely fictitious words obviously mean this exact thing!"

And yes, all of the tags suggested, including ours, are fictitious, which is why I'm suggesting we use straightforward ones, not indirect and confusing ones. Use English words so that people know what you're saying.

Why focus on one possible thing when theres over 4 other choices.

What choices? Trans- (Somebody who underwent a transsexual operation), -Morph (Indirect), Vagentleman (Clunky)... I'm only seeing three choices.
If you can come up with a less clunky English based term, I'm all ears. The best I can come up with is simply: "Man_With_Pussy".

Siral_Exan said:
They don't show a record on all this, and I've been avoiding bringing real life problems on E6, because it will derail it. But, if you want to, I can show my SJW out with my problem on words; get them here, have them vote. Until then, this problem is about the tags on e6, not real life. Unless you're willing to say e6 is more important than my problem...

Incorrect:

Mutisija said:
nobody here is expecting cis people find it offensive because its not an slur for cis people. its offensive for me and other trans people because its slur for us.

and honestly its kinda assholey to not care that something is hurting someone else just because it doesnt hurt you personally. its basic human decency to try to not intentionally hurt others.

Well, I'll take that Mutisija statement and reiterate that real life shouldn't be mixing in the tag system without recognition of the kind of damage that could happen. Shit like that should be argued in reality, which I'd back up because I know that pain, but tagging systems that work shouldn't be influenced by that (yet).

I don't know much on cis, probably never will to the extent that mutisija has, but E6 shouldn't be the place for that. This feels like it's an argument about right and wrong, not two parties trying to solve one problem.

If we start to instead accept points given by others, or try to solve the counters given by others, and "work together" (cliche, I know), then maybe we can solve this problem...

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
I for one, refuse to go through life on a perpetual easter egg hunt for new things to be offended by, I'd prefer to work harder at >not< letting things offend me, because the second you allow someone else to offend you, you give up your own power over your emotions and hand it over to whoever, or whatever is offending you. When you're being trolled by a person or a thing - your reaction shouldn't be focused on the existence of that person or thing, but rather it should be focused on yourself and >why< your emotions were able to be hijacked and weaponized in the first place.

I'll just leave this here again, since it didn't get noticed the last time, lol...

GDelscribe said:
a lot of boring complicated shit that belongs on a Tumblr bio.

Here's the easy way to fix this "issue."

Change "cunt-boy" to "male_with_vagina"
Change "dick-girl" to "female_with_penis"

Is it too long? Meh, who cares, so is "Alfred_Hedgehog_Mysteries."
So is "The_Amazing_World_of_Gumball."

We can just deal, especially if it shuts the SJWs up.

Meanwhile, we'll also have to change every other tag that someone might find offensive... no more "feral" because it's just a nasty beastly sounding term that makes the person's character seem less intelligent than the "anthro" chars. And "chubby" (even though I totally like and am attracted to chubby characters, especially Zangoose) will probably have to be done away with too... I mean, someone might find the word "chubby" to be upsetting, hell the fact I am fetishizing a body type is probably triggering to somebody also.

I am not saying this to joke or be "trolling" anybody, this is seriously the slippery slope / pandora's box that will open as a result of this kind of catering. If you cater to one group's emotions, you must cater to all group's emotions, otherwise it would be "unfair" and you'd be saying one group's emotions is more important and one group's argument is more valid than another's, and we can't have that... we have to embrace "sameness" like in The Giver, so there can neeeeeever be any disputes or bad feelings.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:

Change "cunt-boy" to "male_with_vagina"
Change "dick-girl" to "female_with_penis"

Honestly, this. If we're trying to go full PC with tags/terms on a FURRY PORN IMAGE BOARD, this is pretty much the best option.

This appears to be a big decision and no one in this thread can agree.
I vote we do a site wide vote over the announcement system to get many people to vote. Any admins wish to chime in on this?

Honestly thats not bad. Ill add it to the list I guess. Its really not too different than the "x bodied with y parts" entry though. But yeah Ill ammend the post again. As to your other comments this is an issue that has come up multiple times.

Its time to deal with it.

Also the slippery slope argument is a fallacy it's not a real thing. Its a concept created by people afraid of change so they can scare people into not progressijg forward.

And frankly I dont see what the issue is. If people are being harmed. Which is the case here. Then why bother debating it at all. Again as NMNY has said earlier in the thread. This isnt some radical idea. This is people who are negatively impacted by vulgar terms who dont want themselves or their characters who are an extension of them called awful things.

Thats not up for debate. And never should have been to begin with.

When I was growing up it wasnt called PC. It was called being polite.

Also. I didn't make up andromorph gynomorph. Those are words from mythology used to refer to the gods. Especially Bacchus etc who are in some cases "Gynomorphic" female bodied with male genitals.

Theyre actual words that have actual definitions. So stop with the obfuscation and personal attacks over it.

In summary, I agree and am more than fine with x_with_y cause it does the job. Its not the best outcome for some people but its functional straight to the point etc. Ill add iy and the three votes for it to the tally.

I've decided to do a poll elsewhere on whether or not the terms qualify as slurs, among those not directly embroiled in this current debate (that is, amongst an LGBT community).

Hopefully the results are strong enough in one direction or the other that it puts an end to this discussion about whether or not they're actually slurs, because it seems like we won't be able to move past this otherwise. I'll report back when the results have come in.

Also, wanting to slap the "trans" label onto people's fantasy characters who may not actually be trans in their own personally created canon, but just a character born as a masculine with a vadge, or a feminine with a peen, is like... well what if someone came in and wanted to claim that all black-furred characters are actually african american? The person behind that character might not actually be, but our hypothetical crusader assumes this to be true of any "melaninated" characters. Oh, and to top it off, our hypothetical rabble rouser also thinks that if a white person has a black-furred character, they are appropriating IRL black culture.

"that is, amongst an LGBT community..."

Well, I'm gay, but I already know that I don't really count, ya know, being a cis scum and all.

The reason people commenting are saying this sounds like an SJW thing is because it seriously >does< sound like an SJW thing. When I sent PMs to people on Inkbunny who have cuntboy or dickgirl characters pretty much most of them were either ambivalent or thought that the entire crusade was unnecessary. It seriously seems like y'all are projecting your >personal< dislike of the terminology onto others.

I don't make up the entire gay community, do I? Do you make up the entire trans community? There always are going to be inbetweens, people who aren't offended by the same things... offense, like art, is subjective, it varies from person to person - just like pareidolia - you might look at a cloud in the sky and see a boat, I might look at a cloud in the sky and see Abraham Lincoln. We aren't always gunna see the same things.

Everything I am reading coming from the "change it" side sounds Straight Outta Tumblr. I really don't see what benefit can come from needlessly complicating the tagging system just to appeal to one or a few people... the only reason y'all are arguing this on e621 is because you know you can throw your emotional weight around and eventually get your way. You aren't trying this on any other website, are ya... why? I guess this is just the testing grounds.

Ya don't like the word "cunt-boy" because the word cunt is "offensive" to you... Yet, I recall "pussy" was suggested as a replacement for cunt in the term... isn't pussy just as offensive as cunt? It implies weakness... y'all gettin' yer wires crossed, yo. Even yourselves, some words are not offensive to you, so it slips your mind that someone else out there may apply a different meaning to that term.

And as many others keep asking - even if these tags DO get changed to something "not offensive," how long will it be til the new term is seen to be just as offensive as the old one and there is a crusade to change >that< term?

How long until ALL terms are removed because they could POSSIBLY be offensive? Nerdy, fat, feminine, butch, tall, short, bitchy, cunty, dickish, douche... gone gone gone, cuz they're all UH-FIN-SIVZ! Maybe we should all just live in a neutered society with a neutered language and neutered emotions and no memories of life before the big purge like in the book The Giver (great book, got that from Book Fair when I was in the second grade, just watched the movie adaptation on Netflix last night, was pretty decent). Then >any< word will be labeled offensive and not allowed to be used...

Ugh, precision of language, Jonas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giver

Clawdragons said:
I've decided to do a poll elsewhere on whether or not the terms qualify as slurs, among those not directly embroiled in this current debate (that is, amongst an LGBT community).

Hopefully the results are strong enough in one direction or the other that it puts an end to this discussion about whether or not they're actually slurs, because it seems like we won't be able to move past this otherwise. I'll report back when the results have come in.

I appreciate it.

https://youtu.be/IvAoPrsA2Vs?t=29s

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Change "cunt-boy" to "male_with_vagina"
Change "dick-girl" to "female_with_penis"

And then those will get constantly mistagged as male and female.
"What do you mean, male doesn't apply? There's already a tag added that has 'male' in it."

The altersex_penis/altersex_vagina suggestion is starting to sound better to me. It is a made-up term, but maybe that's what we need. Something with no real-life connotations.

Genjar said:
And then those will get constantly mistagged as male and female.
"What do you mean, male doesn't apply? There's already a tag that has 'male' in it."

Fuck me for trying to be helpful for once, lolz. I thought at least trying to toss in a suggestion would be better than just continuing my usual diatribes. "Altersex," isn't that ambiguous in regard to the visual appearance of the character??? masculine >with< a vagina, feminine >with< a penis? Just sayin' ... oh right, sorry, "male" and "female" are also offensive language, so I guess "altersex" is ambiguous on purpose, ya know, cuz gender is a social construct and stuff...

And I highly doubt that this thread was started as a legit crusade, but rather an exercise in power. To see >if< general opinion could be swayed through use of emotionally charged rhetoric (appeal to emotion), but it seems that the only opinions that matter are the ones that match the narrative, the opposition isn't really acknowledged or engaged very much, only the sycophants (echo chamber).

When you started this topic, you didn't really want opinions other than the ones that match your own, so you saying you "want to hear other people's thoughts on the subject" seems... disingenuous.

"It is a made-up term, but maybe that's what we need. Something with no real-life connotations."

I identify as a Splergupigus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfufT2rZHsc

Genjar said:
And then those will get constantly mistagged as male and female.
"What do you mean, male doesn't apply? There's already a tag added that has 'male' in it."

The altersex_penis/altersex_vagina suggestion is starting to sound better to me. It is a made-up term, but maybe that's what we need. Something with no real-life connotations.

I agree with this kinda. Changed my vote to altersex as well.

This thread is legitimate and Was started because of a need to help out people, like my girlfriend who are trans and are negatively impacted by these terms.

This is not aome power trip this is doing the right thing and trying to make an effort to be a good person.

GDelscribe said:
This thread is legitimate and Was started because of a need to help out people, like my girlfriend who are trans and are negatively impacted by these terms.

Proper grammar is liek... nonbinary-phobic / skitzophobic. We are a multiple system, we are legion. No wait, we changed our mind, we are Hamster from R.A.B. - we're am fictionkin with them. Them's grammar am the besterists. ~ http://rab.wikia.com/wiki/Hamster

Srsly though, I am kind of amused that I suggested what I thought would actually be a helpful straightforward easily understandable tag idea (male_with_vagina, female_with_penis), and of course, the special snowflake "unique" version wins out. This isn't about "fixing the world's problems" this is about winning a personal accomplishment trophy which can be displayed for SJW bragging rights. And you really don't want "what will make the whole e621 userbase happy" but rather "what will make >you< happy."

We have IRL shit to deal with that kinda makes this crusade about these tags seem a bit... well, insignificant. ~~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/22/cece-mcdonald-manslaughter-case_n_4831677.html ~~ In the grand scope of things, what a furry website decides to tag its fictional characters with really isn't all that important... there's real shit going on outside, in the real world. Real trans people getting jumped by neo nazis, real trans people getting beaten up for trying to use a bathroom.

But >this<... this is what you are focused on right now.
This is what you are directing your energies at...
And I totally get why, too, because >this< is easier.

Ya like music? Have some music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHf1YVATfk
B. Dolan - Which Side Are You On

This directly correllates to the issues you bring up. The socioscience behind why using objectifying slur terms is harmful was brought up earlier. They affect trans people negatively.

13 pages. I'm hoping I'm not the first user to say this:

If we do decide to change, cuntboy and dickgirl will be aliased to their respective new tags.

This means that, under the hood, nothing will change. Users will still search using these terms. Taggers will continue to tag using these terms. I sure as hell will continue to tag using these terms. Why? Because I don't like the idea of typing out more than is necessary. That's it.

Whether they're offensive or not, cuntboy/dickgirl have been EXTREMELY USEFUL both in descriptiveness and cutting down on the clutter that existed prior to TWYS policy. They will continue to be useful, just under different names.

So taggers won't have to learn any fancy new terms (it'll be akin to how we all grew accustomed to tagging male/male or male/female instead of gay or straight - see forum #150289), and nobody will be offended by the original terms. Win/win.

Gonna repeat myself: I really, REALLY hope I'm not the first user to bring this up.

Knotty_Curls said:
It'll be akin to how we all grew accustomed to tagging male/male or male/female instead of gay or straight - see forum #150289), and nobody will be offended by the original terms. Win/win.

And I assume that change was made because someone at some point must have said "just because two characters in a picture who are male are screwing doesn't mean they are "gay" one or both of them could be bisexual, and we don't want to be perpetuating "bi-erasure," right? I think there is also more nuance to this issue and slapping "trans" onto all characters who appear male but possess female genitals (or who appear female but possess male genitals) would be unnecessarily sticking all those characters under an umbrella that the characters' owners / creators may not necessarily want. Intersexed characters would also have gotten stuffed under that "trans" umbrella, and then what would we have, intersexed erasure?

Knotty_Curls said:
13 pages. I'm hoping I'm not the first user to say this:

If we do decide to change, cuntboy and dickgirl will be aliased to their respective new tags.

This means that, under the hood, nothing will change. Users will still search using these terms. Taggers will continue to tag using these terms. I sure as hell will continue to tag using these terms. Why? Because I don't like the idea of typing out more than is necessary. That's it.

Whether they're offensive or not, cuntboy/dickgirl have been EXTREMELY USEFUL both in descriptiveness and cutting down on the clutter that existed prior to TWYS policy. They will continue to be useful, just under different names.

So taggers won't have to learn any fancy new terms (it'll be akin to how we all grew accustomed to tagging male/male or male/female instead of gay or straight - see forum #150289), and nobody will be offended by the original terms. Win/win.

Gonna repeat myself: I really, REALLY hope I'm not the first user to bring this up.

This is all Ive been pushing for really I think theres some misconstrued ideas that were trying to decimate the system or something.

Its like makeup. It makes things more palletable.

Thank you for clearing it up in a really concise way.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
And I assume that change was made because someone at some point must have said "just because two characters in a picture who are male are screwing doesn't mean they are "gay" one or both of them could be bisexual, and we don't want to be perpetuating "bi-erasure," right? I think there is also more nuance to this issue and slapping "trans" onto all characters who appear male but possess female genitals (or who appear female but possess male genitals) would be unnecessarily sticking all those characters under an umbrella that the characters' owners / creators may not necessarily want. Intersexed characters would also have gotten stuffed under that "trans" umbrella, and then what would we have, intersexed erasure?

Actually as it was explained earlier in the thread the gay/straight to male/male male/female change was made because people were tagging the sexuality of solo characters rather than using it for its intended purpose.

Also not only is bi erasure a real thing. Using the male/male and male/female tags are great for avoiding that issue outright because sexuality is irrelevant to objective pairings.

Admittedly there are tons of problems with the trans tags and thats actually one of them. Its an option not a be all end all. It has no votes for a reason at the moment.