Topic: [Rule Change] Explicit young human and human-like content is no longer allowed to be posted.

Posted under General

This topic has been locked.

loona_loverx said:
States rights are an issue. America is so divided and fragmented that nothing will ever be right with it. And news doesn't help

federal power is a issue world wide. giving too much power to the governement alway end-up badly for everyone and this is why once in a time, governements must fall to rebuild the country.

So how long before cub and all related gets the same treatment? Cuz far as I'm seeing this is all done for the sake of ads, and no groundbreaking law suddenly becoming real that's making porn illegal/banned.

posssauce said:
This would honestly be more helpful than just going "enforcement of existing laws that were previously unenforced is ramping up and *now* it's a problem." Help us fight it, the same way that Pornhub asks people in porn-blocked states to help fight it. Even better if you have a template and resources to make it easier to fight.

Or, hell, you could keep things up but have a donation drive for possible legal fees, or donate it to anti-censorship groups if nothing comes of it. We can't win this if nobody goes to bat, and a centralized platform like e6 has the advantage of having millions of eyeballs on it. The site and other businesses connected to it wouldn't be alone in driving change. But if it's the heads behind it all saying "we don't want to risk it at all" I get it, but it is still severing and isolating artists who otherwise contribute greatly to our communities, and I plea to them to reconsider.

+1 this is the way,

Those people who see fictional characters as "Real Objects"
Seriously have serious issues inside them.

Updated

Time to find a new site, clearly it was a bad idea to put so many eggs into one basket.

So which "humanoid" Pokemon now fail the litmus test?

Ralts and Kirlia seem to have failed. Hattrem was mostly spared. Meloetta could fail (I've had Melos deleted BEFORE this purge). Celebi, I worry about too.

Mawile was hit hard, yet about 2/3 of its non-breasted explicits remain (or were restored). It's only slightly monstrous (different mouth + limbs) and frankly most artists don't like to call attention to the horn. It's humanoid, but is it young because of its stature?

Then Jirachi... Its figure is more like a star (head especially). OOTH it canonically wraps itself like a baby to sleep. It's young, or at least chibi, but is it humanoid just for lacking animal traits?

nise86 said:
So which "humanoid" Pokemon now fail the litmus test?

Ralts and Kirlia seem to have failed. Hattrem was mostly spared. Meloetta could fail (I've had Melos deleted BEFORE this purge). Celebi, I worry about too.

Mawile was hit hard, yet about 2/3 of its non-breasted explicits remain (or were restored). It's only slightly monstrous (different mouth + limbs) and frankly most artists don't like to call attention to the horn. It's humanoid, but is it young because of its stature?

Then Jirachi... Its figure is more like a star (head especially). OOTH it canonically wraps itself like a baby to sleep. It's young, or at least chibi, but is it humanoid just for lacking animal traits?

It's not even consistent with the Ralts and Kirlia. Some aren't tagged humanoid, some aren't tagged young. Don't you love playing these games?

Shoutout to payment processors! Also I wonder what this means for sites also owned by bad dragon (F-list specifically). This next year might see a massive wave of midna profiles being beat on.

char_aznable said:
Time to find a new site, clearly it was a bad idea to put so many eggs into one basket.

This is the same alarm bell I was ringing with Discord years ago when so many game modders treated their Discords as their sole repositories/wikis for their mods.

theaestheticfur said:
Pedos and zoos are NOT welcomed in this community, so you guys might as well ban everything feral and cub, too. I am a freedom of speech guy, but these are gateway tools into illegal CSAM and animal porn material.

What the hell, what was the reason for the warning on this? Are we really implying the community should be okay with this?

rocketsphynx said:
Argument is moot considering it's happening.
I even gave you a link.
So, now it's just denial.

And it's still in effect.

Seems you posted a single firm's opinion that appears to be at odds with the actual wording of the law.

notmenotyou said:
You're free to try and run a project of our size from your basement or with a data center, and see what happens to your finances and lawyer fees once you hit our size and notoriety. This hasn't been a project able to be run without any external scrutiny for over a decade, but particularly so in the last 3 or 4 years.
Our business partners aren't some faceless megacorps trying to figure out how to squeeze another 0.1% profit margin out of their portfolio, but small local ones that get the same shit served on a platter that we do. And unsurprisingly when their livelihoods are threatened they aren't going to be able to just handwave it away, they got their own employees and families to think about[...]

So the reason this purge happened was because, "The people we depend on for our existence actually have their livelihoods threatened we are forced to react"
I dont understand why you still wont directly tell us the reason, you dont even have to name the company.
"And that point was reached earlier this week" - So you had a few days to make a decision, and came up with the great idea to purge with no warning?
So there are bad vibes, and pressure that a partner is facing. Yet you will not tell us how they are facing it, and what this purge is a direct reaction to. Was it something that was causing the pressure? Or a blind overreaction? To the 'vibe'. As far as I'm aware, no massive legal changes happened in the us that would affect this type of content.

Also to everyone else here is my favorite quote:
"Hide and Ignore"
Holy shit stop taking the bait.

notmypornaccount said:
What the hell, what was the reason for the warning on this? Are we really implying the community should be okay with this?

Pretty sure it was every other part of that comment that got them the warning. lol

felicity_longis said:
Nobody who has ever said this is really supporting free speech. There is no "but". Either you do, or you don't.

Also is there any evidence whatsoever to support the "fantasy to reality" pipeline you people always bitch about? Because this is literally the "violent video games make people violent" argument all over again. Which I feel like we, as a society, have largely realized is really fucking stupid. This type of pearl clutching is the exact brand of masturbatory slacktivism that both solves nothing, and minimizes focus and efforts to solve *actual* issues in the world today.

all that kind of "reasoning" does is downplaying the gravity of real world occurences by blaming it on fiction as being responsible for it to happen

I rather see the site put up a fight abd go down fighting then just give in tbh

genotora said:
LETS GOOOO US GOV W

Bro you have so much cub and feral artwork fav'd that you really shouldnt be this enthusiastic about this lol

lurker419 said:
So the reason this purge happened was because, "The people we depend on for our existence actually have their livelihoods threatened we are forced to react"
I dont understand why you still wont directly tell us the reason, you dont even have to name the company.
"And that point was reached earlier this week" - So you had a few days to make a decision, and came up with the great idea to purge with no warning?
So there are bad vibes, and pressure that a partner is facing. Yet you will not tell us how they are facing it, and what this purge is a direct reaction to. Was it something that was causing the pressure? Or a blind overreaction? To the 'vibe'. As far as I'm aware, no massive legal changes happened in the us that would affect this type of content.

Also to everyone else here is my favorite quote:
"Hide and Ignore"
Holy shit stop taking the bait.

They have also been banning a number of people who have voiced their displeasure with the "disruptive behavior" reason as well as "you asked for your account to be nuked" as well as variations of them. Disruptive behavior in a blog post about a near universally despised decision.

haydenzip said:
I rather see the site put up a fight abd go down fighting then just give in tbh

It's just another site that bends the knee and supports censorship.

I wonder how long it'll take until the next purge. Maybe because of "animal cruelty", "incest is bad" or somethibg similar.

susie42 said:
Meanwhile the rest of us are trying to actually stop the people you're complaining about.

Are we, though? Or are we all just sitting here in our furry blue hexagonal bubble bitching back and forth with zero practical activity happening? The people fighting for positive change throughout history didn't say "well we'll just do what they say for now because if we win enough elections we can do what we want again" as if that's going to make a difference (Look up George Carlin's routines on "the illusion of choice"). The way forward is through defiance. Yeah, it's tough and it's painful but that's how things get better. Changing the rules to bend the knee to censorious leeches then saying "maybe we'll be able to go back to the way things were if the people I like get elected" is lazy and ignorant.

And yeah, I am well aware that right now we're just talking about silly furry porn. But you and I both know that it doesn't stop here. Right now we're the low hanging fruit, but that just means once we're gone it'll be something else that's the new low hanging fruit. And it won't stop until the tree is stripped bare and burnt to ash. If it can be stopped now then let's stop it now.

My mouse Jas uploads got deleted, she's meant to be a cub not a human/kemono.

qwarkfreak said:
My mouse Jas uploads got deleted, she's meant to be a cub not a human/kemono.

There’s a thread to un-delete posts, you should check it out if you haven’t already.

kiracaroso said:
They have also been banning a number of people who have voiced their displeasure with the "disruptive behavior" reason as well as "you asked for your account to be nuked" as well as variations of them. Disruptive behavior in a blog post about a near universally despised decision.

Someone was permanently banned for "voicing their displeasure" by… Calling the moderators the n-word 💀

A lot of us have expressed our concerns in a civilized manner and we’re still here.

I think some users were too shocked to act rationnally, and that really sucks.

Idea, a week-long pool asking the community about that decision.

Requirement to have the account one week old to vote.

sinwit said:
Conservative puritans are definitely responsible too, but I think it's silly to act like "wokeness" didn't have a part in this. Any time a loli or teenager is remotely sexualized (or even just posed suggestively) on twitter, you got hundreds of people crying foul. And these people all got the same profile, with pronouns, sexuality flags, and most importantly "proship DNI". Most of these types are basically against anything offensive/anti-woke in media.

Now obviously, conservative puritans do this too. But imo they're much more of a minority (ironic) you can go on any social media like Twitter, tumblr, or reddit, and find hundreds of left leaning people decrying younger characters in porn. it's a strength in numbers kinda deal. The conservatives that do have strong influence and opinions on this generally hate any kind of unusual porn. So why stop at just young human characters? You'd think they'd go as far as possible and ban furry stuff too, since it's "beastiality". Meanwhile, woke-ish people aren't as hard on furry stuff yet, so...

It's already happening lol. If you stick around leftist dominated areas like reddit you'll see where they are going. They are bashing feral on human, ferals in general, even animal like vaginas lol (while still being okay with knots, hypocrisy lvl100) . It's a matter of time before left becomes as puritan as convervative puritans, lol.

dimoretpinel said:
Someone was permanently banned for "voicing their displeasure" by… Calling the moderators the n-word 💀

A lot of us have expressed our concerns in a civilized manner and we’re still here.

I think some users were too shocked to act rationnally, and that really sucks.

Actually it does appear that quite a few people are being wrongly banned over being against this change, while people calling it a "W' and labelling many users here pedos and zoo's are not even being warned.

icywings said:
Idea, a week-long pool asking the community about that decision.

Requirement to have the account one week old to vote.

That sounds like a good idea.

wat8548 said:
Sure would have been nice if you could have mentioned any of this at the time. For example, on 14th April you removed one random post from pool #19011. The ID of that post, post #1466522, no longer leads anywhere. The pool had not been edited for 5 years before that, and every previous edit was by the same user, so the purged post definitely had not been causing problems before.

That was the earliest you could have warned us that e621 was no longer a safe permanent host for furry artwork.

On 19th June, things escalated. The administrator Dari has a pool edit history consisting entirely of removals of permanently purged posts, which started on that date.

On 9th July, you joined in. It is undeniable that you were well aware of what was about to happen by that point at the very latest, and yet you did not afford us even the meagre generosity of 72 hours' warning. The above sentence is the first public hint that you were engaged in any of this activity at all, 24 hours after it was too late.

You have been criticised over and over again by many different people in this thread for your lack of transparency, and it still does not seem to have occurred to you that earlier and greater transparency could have helped quell the shitstorm.

Also, given that the first post I mentioned was from a pool consisting entirely of feral and anthro ponies with no humanoids or young characters in sight, it is now 100% confirmed that the slippery slope is real and extends at least as far as fictional depictions of rape.

We're disclosing what we can, when we can. I also don't know what that image was, but I don't see any emails for requests to destroy anything from April, so chances are that was something unrelated, and I have all emails kept since I got on staff, apart from age verification ones showing private information.
Anything I have deleted as part of the last BS was based on the criteria in the OP, and only those criteria.

But also, we have supported takedowns since 2010, there's very little effective difference between a deletion via takedown that the artist already nuked on their galleries, or one via destroying the post. If you don't have a copy, you don't have it at all. That mantra has been a thing since the early '00s and it just gets more relevant every year.
As long as it's public nobody is immune from this, not even the Internet Archive.

People blaming project 2025 for this when biden's occ suspended a bill that would make payment processers give fair access to their services. It's also why patreon is banning porn due to processor concerns

icywings said:
Idea, a week-long pool asking the community about that decision.

Requirement to have the account one week old to vote.

A little too late now that they already deleted everything and damaged their own website.

I wonder if this decision will lead to the next "inkbunny" site (this time a e621 clone just without the bad this site did) just like the cub ban on furaffinity lead to inkbunny

omniscient said:
Actually it does appear that quite a few people are being wrongly banned over being against this change, while people calling it a "W' and labelling many users here pedos and zoo's are not even being warned.

That's just the typical hypocrisy. It's always like this

swaggyg said:
It's not even consistent with the Ralts and Kirlia. Some aren't tagged humanoid, some aren't tagged young. Don't you love playing these games?

Anthro-ness and youth are a subjective sliding scale. It's why semi-anthro exists after all, even if not as an official body shape tag.

I just think the topic in relation to Pokémon in particular needs extra care. It's the site's most popular brand by far (over 480 of Nintendo's 650k+ pics on site)
Anything clearly featuring Ash or the other protags can go. I'm resigned to it. OOTH the FA mon purge caused a bit of an exodus. One artist I personally know ripped up the bulk of his content from there.

theory0fstrings said:
Seems you posted a single firm's opinion that appears to be at odds with the actual wording of the law.

Why the hell are people going after ne when I simply posted the damned Law?

Contact your representatives, not me!

barley90 said:
People blaming project 2025 for this when biden's occ suspended a bill that would make payment processers give fair access to their services. It's also why patreon is banning porn due to processor concerns

This is true.
I forgot about that.

notmenotyou said:
We're disclosing what we can, when we can. I also don't know what that image was, but I don't see any emails for requests to destroy anything from April, so chances are that was something unrelated, and I have all emails kept since I got on staff, apart from age verification ones showing private information.
Anything I have deleted as part of the last BS was based on the criteria in the OP, and only those criteria.

But also, we have supported takedowns since 2010, there's very little effective difference between a deletion via takedown that the artist already nuked on their galleries, or one via destroying the post. If you don't have a copy, you don't have it at all. That mantra has been a thing since the early '00s and it just gets more relevant every year.
As long as it's public nobody is immune from this, not even the Internet Archive.

Hey I know that everyone here has been kinda crude and very hostile which isn't cool. Unfortunately, this big of a change without some sort of response other then deal with it isn't going to help. It is very frustrating for you as it is for all of us and personally it would help if you could at least provide something more substantial.

I don't know if you saw my previous question last time so I will ask again. How high of a chance is there of other art being purged as a sudden request by your business partners? I know you can't give specifics nor say much at all, but a simple response of (low/ medium/ high/ or very high) would be very much appreciated. Thanks for being an admin and trying to help this site stay running.

zombieastronaut said:
It's already happening lol. If you stick around leftist dominated areas like reddit you'll see where they are going. They are bashing feral on human, ferals in general, even animal like vaginas lol (while still being okay with knots, hypocrisy lvl100) . It's a matter of time before left becomes as puritan as convervative puritans, lol.

It's actually crazy how the Left has become the pearl clutching conservatives of the 1990s.
It's a weird flip.
Hardline conservatives are still a headache though

alright well, the posts ive been waiting to get removed finally are, and my comments are getting deleted now, im out. have fun with whatever this site is now, cause its certainly not an archive.

watsit said:
I've never counted Princess Ruto (or Prince Sidon and other Zora) to be humanoid, and tag them anthro. Humanoid generally refers to human characters with minor deviations, like a tail or ears or tusks, whereas Zora generally are most fish-like with things like webbed digits, animals heads, and various fins around their body.

Agreed. Just would like to respectfully appeal to the mods. Almost all Ruto and Wilykit art was deleted and I believe this to be in error. Mostly that I don’t think they count as humanoids.

If lawmakers decide to crack down on "deviant" types of porn, this purge won't have changed anything.
Do you really think they'll differentiate between underage furries and drawings of underage humans? Or that they'll turn a blind eye to all of the bestiality content on the website? Or that they'll even treat anthro furries as anything different from bestiality...
I get that there's a desire to be proactive rather than reactive in this increasingly puritanical political environment. But if you expect a storm is brewing and it's heading our way, you might as well nuke the entire catalog. Because we're not any safer from their wrath now than we were before this change.

rocketsphynx said:
It's actually crazy how the Left has become the pearl clutching conservatives of the 1990s.
It's a weird flip.
Hardline conservatives are still a headache though

This is so spot on. Those of us in Gen X have watched it happen in real time, too. Those here saying "get out and vote and complain to your representatives!" thinking that'll make a difference simply haven't observed enough history to know how fruitless that endeavor will be. The Beastie Boys said it and it's as true today as it was back then. You gotta fight for your right to party.

rocketsphynx said:
It's actually crazy how the Left has become the pearl clutching conservatives of the 1990s.
It's a weird flip.
Hardline conservatives are still a headache though

Guess if the lefties are now against that sort of thing you should vote for the other side. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they keep those dumb laws.

but the main problem is the website itself. Instead of relying on the community and asking for donations, they searched for sponsors who don't care or even hate this community.
So even IF the mods/owners of e621 would apologize and reupload everything they just deleted, they destroyed the trust of the community. Artists of the now banned topics will search for a new website and since this is the internet, a new website will sooner or later be born just like inkbunny was born after the furaffinity cub ban

Now let's just wait for the e621 clone to be founded which will allow everything e621 bans

aomikan said:
This is so spot on. Those of us in Gen X have watched it happen in real time, too. Those here saying "get out and vote and complain to your representatives!" thinking that'll make a difference simply haven't observed enough history to know how fruitless that endeavor will be. The Beastie Boys said it and it's as true today as it was back then. You gotta fight for your right to party.

Getting directly in touch with your Representative does help sometime if they're not a total douchecanoe.
But other than that, you're absolutely correct

sbeewun said:
e621: "Human child porn is not allowed anymore. All other porn is still fine."
"HOW COULD YOU DO THIS, THIS IS A VIOLATION OF MY RIGHTS, LITERALLY 1984"
Kek.

Explain why cartoon child bad but cartoon ANIMAL child is good.

notmenotyou said:
Do you know what people in the industry feel when basically every other month a new bi-partisan bill somewhere gets made that aims to make things harder in the industry? And even if it's eventually repealed they all vow to continue bringing it back with minor adjustments until it sticks?
Do you know what's going to happen to a company that gets legally binding content removal requests for months, and has to fear that noncompliance means they lose access to an entire market segment, and then their customers can't sell their products there anymore and will likely jump ship as well?

See this is the thing that gets me. All of the e621 staff have been saying that there is absolutely no reason to assume that this issue will be pushed any further; that this is what the demands were for and where they end.
But when you say this, it seems pretty clear that all young content is going to be in the line of fire sooner than later.

To anyone who cares about that kind of content, you need to start backing up everything NOW.

Well it's been fun, but looks like even this site isn't safe anymore. What a terrible revelation

barley90 said:
People blaming project 2025 for this when biden's occ suspended a bill that would make payment processers give fair access to their services. It's also why patreon is banning porn due to processor concerns

The insistence people show of bringing up Project 2025 is setting off alarms for me honestly.

It doesn't even make sense, if it's what Trump really wants to do, then why isn't it his main platform? It looks bad to centrists and undecided voters and it won't somehow convince anyone who's a militant far right voter to go vote for him that wouldn't have already made up their mind. Publishing, or allowing that to be published is categorically a damaging thing to his platform and campaign. He said he's not affiliated with it and finds some of it "ridiculous", i've heard of it exclusively from left wingers crying havoc while right wingers are aloof, unenthusiastic or entirely suspicious of it whenever it's brought up.

But i don't even think it's up for debate that it's some kind of honeypot/psy op, because the whole thing was hacked a few days ago and it's likely run and funded by the Chinese government:
https://x.com/HackingButLegal/status/1811048725717938537
https://x.com/HackingButLegal/status/1811135528667938894

If Project 2025 is stirring any kind of action to ban porn or take up extremist right wing policies by anyone, it's by people trying to fearmong and create a panic coming November for the US elections.

You can't satiate the demands of the activist who already despise you.

Updated

arourathehybrid said:
good change, handled poorly. what else is new. doesn't change how i browse so idc lmao

No, a horrible change. If you don't like it add it to your block list instead of forcing the website to ban it.

All this USA-specific left vs right talk is getting tiring. Moderators and other users have already pointed out that laws which affect this site’s accessibility exist outside of the United States.

Maybe move it to topic #45521 or something.

vex714

Privileged

I’ve been here since 2016 and have been on and off since and I’m not exactly a fan of this. Not for the fact it’s young content but because

A: it alienates longtime users into thinking that change can happen at any given time without notice
B: it will get people thinking “who knows, maybe feral is next?”
C: “…maybe even adult humanoids are next?”
D: it certainly defeats the archival purposes

But I get it’s all for the sake of legally covering asses

And it’s young content, so defending it will always be looked as defending the nature of the content itself (same as feral or any other blacklistable content). And honestly I’d rather people goon at home to that than look for other means to get their rocks off. Or go to a different site.

donteven said:
See this is the thing that gets me. All of the e621 staff have been saying that there is absolutely no reason to assume that this issue will be pushed any further; that this is what the demands were for and where they end.
But when you say this, it seems pretty clear that all young content is going to be in the line of fire sooner than later.

To anyone who cares about that kind of content, you need to start backing up everything NOW.

Love how their comment implies they've been getting warnings for months, and instead of telling the community that this might happen, they just rugpull and delete everything on a whim.

vex714 said:
I’ve been here since 2016 and have been on and off since and I’m not exactly a fan of this. Not for the fact it’s young content but because

A: it alienates longtime users into thinking that change can happen at any given time without notice
B: it will get people thinking “who knows, maybe feral is next?”
C: “…maybe even adult humanoids are next?”
D: it certainly defeats the archival purposes

But I get it’s all for the sake of legally covering asses

And it’s young content, so defending it will always be looked as defending the nature of the content itself (same as feral or any other blacklistable content). And honestly I’d rather people goon at home to that than look for other means to get their rocks off. Or go to a different site.

I like what you said, it’s like you put all my thoughts neatly together and simplified them so I didn’t have to.
I really feel that A, B and D.

I hope mods can adress these worries soon.

notmypornaccount said:
What the hell, what was the reason for the warning on this? Are we really implying the community should be okay with this?

The taboo furry porn site is indeed implying that you shouldn't accuse people of being actual criminals over artwork, yes. If you're surprised then maybe this isn't the site for you.

lasagnafeline said:
Love how their comment implies they've been getting warnings for months, and instead of telling the community that this might happen, they just rugpull and delete everything on a whim.

Yeah, why aren't people circling back to this more? This just makes the public-facing whiplash 100x worse.

vex714 said:
I’ve been here since 2016 and have been on and off since and I’m not exactly a fan of this. Not for the fact it’s young content but because

A: it alienates longtime users into thinking that change can happen at any given time without notice
B: it will get people thinking “who knows, maybe feral is next?”
C: “…maybe even adult humanoids are next?”
D: it certainly defeats the archival purposes

But I get it’s all for the sake of legally covering asses

And it’s young content, so defending it will always be looked as defending the nature of the content itself (same as feral or any other blacklistable content). And honestly I’d rather people goon at home to that than look for other means to get their rocks off. Or go to a different site.

That's what many people already think (I've seen comments on inkbunny). So yeah, today loli/shota, then cub and then other stuff

and saying that loli/shota is the same as the illegal stuff it pretty much as saying that you're a real life murderer for playing a shooter. Only dumb people or actual predators are attacking loli/shota/cub stuff with that excuse; it's just art and nothing more

Are there any plans to reinstate the uploads should the opportunity present itself? By say a change of law or the server moves to a different location? We know teh loli is still safe there on the server. We can smell it.

babysishunter said:
Are there any plans to reinstate the uploads should the opportunity present itself? By say a change of law or the server moves to a different location? We know teh loli is still safe there on the server. We can smell it.

notmenotyou said:
And last but not least, while this decision may have been rash, it does also allow us to protect things in the long run. As long as we aren't forced to purge the files from the server they will continue to stay there indefinitely with the hope that we can make them public again eventually. We already had to irreversibly purge too many as is, and this will at least protect the rest from that, even if we can't share them at the moment.

Welp, the last good booru is dead. At least I have an archive.

The reason would be nice but I also don't really care. Once some content gets banned it's only a matter of time before more and more shit gets banned.

I don't see much hope in alternative boorus because their tagging and general quality is not on the level of e621.

babysishunter said:
Are there any plans to reinstate the uploads should the opportunity present itself? By say a change of law or the server moves to a different location? We know teh loli is still safe there on the server. We can smell it.

I somehow doubt they would actually store it for a longer time. Neither see I the chance that they'll move the server to a pro-loli/shota county (Japan for example forces artists to censor their art).
Not to mention that they also have those sponsors who're most likely also forcing the owners to bend the knee with money.