I just can not understand it. No amount of this rule will ever work....

If you see Krystal (starfox) that was re-gendered, it apparently automatically becomes a herm. This is due to knowledge that Krystal was originally female.

I want to tag and help out the website, but I can not any longer. This image http://e621.net/post/show/205708/artica_sparkle-balls-bathroom-bathtub-blue-breasts shows a penis, testicles, and no other forms of genitalia. No breasts, short hair, and no other female characteristics. Even with that, it is continuously tagged herm do to the prior knowledge of the character.

There is a argument that the dildo has to be entered into vagina, and not an anus, due to the angle in which the sex toy is entered. This I do not understand. The artist has other work in which the anus is next to the testicles. Using "Tag what you see," you have to assume that it is an anus. But due to the coat pattern of the character, It will always be considered a herm regardless of gender in an image.

I just want to help out and not get reprimanded for doing so. So how does this "Tag what you see, not what you know" really work so that problems like this will not happen again?

image of second example: http://e621.net/post/show/124994/2011-anus-augur_buzzard-auspex-avian-balls-catwolf

It works exactly how it sounds "tag what you see, not what you know", if you can't see it in the image, don't tag it.

If a character has a penis and balls, and no other genitalia or secondary sexual characteristics present in the image, they should be tagged as male, regardless of whether they actually are or not.

Now, of course, if you take this rule to the point of absurdity, you wouldn't be able to tag anything since you couldn't tag an artist unless there was something in the image to show that it's that artist (a signature, a watermark, etc.), you wouldn't be able to tag character names or copyrights unless they were specifically mentioned in the image. Hell, if you want to go completely nuts, we can't even tag genders since those are based on our knowledge of what a male looks like, what a female looks like, etc.

So what should the image http://e621.net/post/show/205708/artica_sparkle-balls-bathroom-bathtub-blue-breasts be?

Male or Herm based off of Tag what you see?

jazzpaintball said:
So what should the image http://e621.net/post/show/205708/artica_sparkle-balls-bathroom-bathtub-blue-breasts be?

Male or Herm based off of Tag what you see?

No evidence of breasts or vagina, dildo could just be going into their anus. Male.

I'd just honestly say; there are some "tag fights" that just are not worth getting into. Artica Sparkle IS the poster child of tagging problems on this site.

Worry about and enjoy the 99% of pictures that you can tag right with no problems, but don't get worked up over the small stuff that does occur when "well known" clashes with "T.W.Y.S".

Sometimes if things become that frustating, you just should know when to walk away from it. I walked away from anything dealing with the "sexual" aspects from Artica Sparkle along time ago due to the same problems you are having yourself.

There's no shortage of missing tags on the site. I've never found it difficult to spend arbitrary amounts of time and effort tagging. My technique is to do negation searches. For instance, a search for: Sex -penetration -oral

Bam, that produces a massive number of mistagged images. That search produces 108 pages of images, the majority of which will probably need tagging work. I'm unlikely to fall into tagging controversies doing work like this.

This conversation again?

I just go back and fix the tags "proper" once all the stupids died down and no ones looking.

Artica Sparkle seems to have quite a few fans, and those fans in turn seem to have a great deal of overlap with 'e621 site users who prefer to tag with known genders rather than visible genders'. This might sound stupid, but can we bring Artica's creator in here to endorse the official tagging policy? It might kibbosh some of the recurrent drama and help straighten out herm-tagging on the site.

31h253 said:
Artica Sparkle seems to have quite a few fans, and those fans in turn seem to have a great deal of overlap with 'e621 site users who prefer to tag with known genders rather than visible genders'. This might sound stupid, but can we bring Artica's creator in here to endorse the official tagging policy? It might kibbosh some of the recurrent drama and help straighten out herm-tagging on the site.

No it wouldn't. Furry drama is all-pervasive and enduring no matter the facts. It's like a fungal spore, lying in wait no matter how much you Lysol the fucker.

Despite the fact that this rule should probably be thrown out the window, I think the question should rather be "Why isn't this enforced?" rather than "How does it work?" The rule is self-explanatory. People just don't follow it. At all.

Back to what I mentioned firstly, I think the rule should be axed. I'm not trying to start a rebellion here, but if there's a picture of a very tall, muscular person with the face, form, hair, and general appearance of a man, but does not show genetalia, I think it should be tagged male, but usually it isn't. I've seen that so many times.

Just offering my input :)

My opinion, since everyone seems to be giving them, is that you can't tell furries what to do. It's like herding cats. I think TWYS is an excellent idea, but it's lax enforcement and furries-being-like-felines-in-that-they-don't-like-being-herded-at-all and general anti-authority stance of most, it just won't do anything.

But if it gets axed, get ready for images being tagged 'sexy', 'hot', and clearly female characters (breasts and all) being tagged 'male'.

Mechaniatrix said:
My opinion, since everyone seems to be giving them, is that you can't tell furries what to do. It's like herding cats. I think TWYS is an excellent idea, but it's lax enforcement and furries-being-like-felines-in-that-they-don't-like-being-herded-at-all and general anti-authority stance of most, it just won't do anything.

But if it gets axed, get ready for images being tagged 'sexy', 'hot', and clearly female characters (breasts and all) being tagged 'male'.

People already use subjective tags like sexy and hot, and I doubt anyone would tag a clearly female character as a male.

Raiden_Gekkou said:
People already use subjective tags like sexy and hot, and I doubt anyone would tag a clearly female character as a male.

Subjective/useless tags like sexy and hot have been mostly aliased to invalid_tag.

And trust me, it happens.

The "tag what you see" rule is enforced as a standard because it is the only rule that is definite and not abstract:

It is universal, which means it can be applied to any situation; there is no situation in which the rule can't be applied. It can also be justified by any user, after all, we can all see what is in the post. It's also as basic as it gets, yet some people can't seem to grasp the concept.

Tagging based on outside knowledge may make the post make more sense or simply follow the norm, but it adds such a level of confusion and controversy that it is ineffective to abide by.

Think of the basic purpose of tags. They're used to find pictures linked with the tag one is searching with. If one searches for male, then one expects to see image results of male characters with only male genitalia (penis, balls), not posts with with female genitalia (vagina, breast).

The site is all about standardization so that all users can easily use the website and its functions.

Furry_Fanatic said:
The "tag what you see" rule is enforced as a standard because it is the only rule that is definite and not abstract:

It is universal, which means it can be applied to any situation; there is no situation in which the rule can't be applied. It can also be justified by any user, after all, we can all see what is in the post. It's also as basic as it gets, yet some people can't seem to grasp the concept.

Tagging based on outside knowledge may make the post make more sense or simply follow the norm, but it adds such a level of confusion and controversy that it is ineffective to abide by.

Think of the basic purpose of tags. They're used to find pictures linked with the tag one is searching with. If one searches for male, then one expects to see image results of male characters with only male genitalia (penis, balls), not posts with with female genitalia (vagina, breast).

The site is all about standardization so that all users can easily use the website and its functions.

This is precisely what my thinking is.

One thing I am still confused about is that since TWYS is used, why do the people who do this reprimanded for it and the people who switch it to tagging with personal knowledge are not even talked back to?

jazzpaintball said:
This is precisely what my thinking is.

One thing I am still confused about is that since TWYS is used, why do the people who do this reprimanded for it and the people who switch it to tagging with personal knowledge are not even talked back to?

You mean except for all the negative records and bans we give out for it?

I'll assume you're referring to the neutral you got for changing images like
post #179767
this
post #180755
this
post #181091
and this
to male when it's obvious the character is a dickgirl. And instead of discussing it and expressing your concerns, you just went around changing it, presumably just to be argumentative. The point is, the character still looks female, even though she has a dick. If you feel strongly enough against it, then voice your opinions instead of sneaking around changing the tags, because that gives the appearance that you're just trying to cause trouble.

ippiki_ookami said:
You mean except for all the negative records and bans we give out for it?

I'll assume you're referring to the neutral you got for changing images like
post #179767
this
post #180755
this
post #181091
and this
to male when it's obvious the character is a dickgirl. And instead of discussing it and expressing your concerns, you just went around changing it, presumably just to be argumentative.

I don't see how they're being argumentative. The site (and everyone else) are telling them to tag those pictures as male, yet you are telling them to tag them as dickgirl. I don't think it's terribly obvious that Futashy looks like a dickgirl in those images either. Name aside, of course.

I'd say the third one of those three images looks like a herm. Note the strapon being used, and what looks like a depiction of female ejaculation.

31h253 said:
I'd say the third one of those three images looks like a herm. Note the strapon being used, and what looks like a depiction of female ejaculation.

Well, I'd definitely say that.
But the other two definitely make it look like they're male.

ippiki_ookami said:
You mean except for all the negative records and bans we give out for it?

I'll assume you're referring to the neutral you got for changing images like
post #179767
this
post #180755
this
post #181091
and this
to male when it's obvious the character is a dickgirl. And instead of discussing it and expressing your concerns, you just went around changing it, presumably just to be argumentative. The point is, the character still looks female, even though she has a dick. If you feel strongly enough against it, then voice your opinions instead of sneaking around changing the tags, because that gives the appearance that you're just trying to cause trouble.

If you look though the records, if you can, I had not tagged ANYTHING for a long time after getting that notice. About 2 weeks ago I posted up on the forum asking what to do in some situations. I got answers and then I started tagging again.

Not just tagging specific things, but just random images that looked like it needed more tags.

The only problem with tagging i have had, and go figure, was when tagged TWYS for the http://e621.net/post/show/205708/artica_sparkle-balls-bathroom-bathtub-blue-breasts picture. When doing that, I looked and made the best judgement ON WHAT I COULD SEE....

Now, instead of just changing it back multiple times, I decided to do it once and then post the picture in question here.

Now, how did I not "discuss" something? All three of those images have male animals in them. The last one in your list I did not even try to tag for I did not want the fight, even though I would still say that there is a male in the picture.

As far as the Futashy thing, that is YOUR FAULT ippiki. You changed it so that the tags 'futashy' and 'fluttershy' where the same. SORRY, they are not. I personally dont care for futashy, but dont mind fluttershy, but I can not black list one due to YOU making them the same thing.

Now, as far as Tag what you see, not what you know. That looks like a pegasus with a penis. No other gender defining attributes. Wouldn't that make it male by TWYS. You could still label it Futashy, but Ippiki killed that one.

Ippiki, I have no hard feelings towards you, but these points above are not a fight with you. I am just stating that if you want me, and others, to tag more; then enforce the tagging rules that e621.net uses instead of reprimanding them for following those rules.

Riversyde said:
Well, I'd definitely say that.
But the other two definitely make it look like they're male.

Just trying to be precise. On that note, the other two use female cues from the show's style. How much that means for the rule, I don't know and wouldn't guess. I mostly avoid using intersex tags or having strong opinions on their usage.

I am not trying to cause trouble, and that is why I posted the image and problem here and that the picture still lists the tag "herm." I am not trying to cause trouble, but rather get an EXACT answer on how this site wants images tagged so that I can do them properly without getting reprimanded for it.

lol drama

Mechaniatrix said:
lol drama

HA! I know, right?

jazzpaintball said:
I am not trying to cause trouble, and that is why I posted the image and problem here and that the picture still lists the tag "herm." I am not trying to cause trouble, but rather get an EXACT answer on how this site wants images tagged so that I can do them properly without getting reprimanded for it.

The sites wants images tagged on how you can see them.

• If you see a character who you've usually seen as a dickgirl, but there's no indication of them having breasts, tag them as male.

If you see a character who you've usually seen as a herm, but there's no indication of them having a penis/vagina, tag them as female/dickgirl.
If you see a character who you've usually seen as a cuntboy, but there's no indication of them having a vagina, tag them as male.

Certain styles can come into place (like big eyelashes indicating femininity), but we'd like to get you to not get your opinions involved on such things when tagging. Tagging based on your opinions on a given subject in such an uncouth place as the comments or the tags can only lead to tag wars and people not resolving their conflicts with logic and reason, but rather, who can yell the loudest. That is not healthy discussion.

Just stick to the guidelines that have been set out before you, and you should do fine. If you do come across a sticky situation, the users of the forums will most likely be willing to assist.

On that note, I personally would consider an indicative name for tagging regardless, unless the image clearly shows otherwise. Futashy is clearly noted on the first and third image, so I would've tagged them futa/herm.

If I'm really high on lsd and everything looks like a herm shitting gay dicknipples with dickgirls rubbing their pussies on cuntboys with the assfucking the males and females fucking the femboys riding chakats with and without tits and dicktits no matter what I look at

then do I still tag by what I see?

JustFrame said:
If I'm really high on lsd and everything looks like a herm shitting gay dicknipples with dickgirls rubbing their pussies on cuntboys with the assfucking the males and females fucking the femboys riding chakats with and without tits and dicktits no matter what I look at

then do I still tag by what I see?

You should first get off the internet and get to bed before you do something stupid. :p

This seems to have been generally said, but:

Always TWYS, no matter what other people are doing. Eff them, they're doing it wrong. If they give you flak about it and keep changing tags back, that's when you report it to a mod and say "hey, this person is vandalizing tags and also abusing me in the comments." The rule is there and it is enforced. In general it's followed, but for some reason when known characters are involved, people tend to get their panties in a big fucking bunch about what gender is tagged. Just remember, if they tag what isn't seen, they are in the wrong, are violating the rules of e621, and can be reported.

RedOctober said:
This seems to have been generally said, but:

Always TWYS, no matter what other people are doing. Eff them, they're doing it wrong. If they give you flak about it and keep changing tags back, that's when you report it to a mod and say "hey, this person is vandalizing tags and also abusing me in the comments." The rule is there and it is enforced. In general it's followed, but for some reason when known characters are involved, people tend to get their panties in a big fucking bunch about what gender is tagged. Just remember, if they tag what isn't seen, they are in the wrong, are violating the rules of e621, and can be reported.

That is great, but the problem is that the last time I did that I got my tagging rights suspended from a mod.

Yes, I was reprimanded from a mod for tagging TWYS. The first two pictures in Ippiki's post.

There were no female characteristics, so I tagged them 'Male,' and I tried to put in the 'Futashy' tag. Problem was that the tag 'Futashy' was made to be same as 'Fluttershy.' Go ahead and try it, search "Futashy;" you get every image that was ever tagged "Fluttershy."

I made a couple comments, and then got a comment on my account saying "Dickgirls/herms are not male. Stop tagging them as such."

After that, when I tried to update ANY tag, it would not work. I got my tagging rights pulled for using TWYS.

THIS is why I am having such a problem with this. I don't want this confusion. I don't want others to experience the same problems. I just want a mod to give me a strait answer of how TWYS works in these situations so that I can use the rule and tag properly.

jazzpaintball said:
THIS is why I am having such a problem with this. I don't want this confusion. I don't want others to experience the same problems. I just want a mod to give me a strait answer of how TWYS works in these situations so that I can use the rule and tag properly.

I swear you just breezed past my last post. Give it another read.

And I don't see any records of your tagging privileges ever being removed.

My apologies riversyde, I did not realize you were an admin.

As far as the tagging privileges not being removed, that is odd. I stopped tagging due to any tag changes I had tried to make would not go though. Even this image: http://e621.net/post/show/202762/anal-anal_penetration-balls-bite-cub-cum-cum_insid 17 days ago I tried to fix a few tags. Again, I could not get an edit to work.

After that, I posted up in the forums and figured someone removed my restriction.

jazzpaintball said:
As far as the tagging privileges not being removed, that is odd. I stopped tagging due to any tag changes I had tried to make would not go though. Even this image: http://e621.net/post/show/202762/anal-anal_penetration-balls-bite-cub-cum-cum_insid 17 days ago I tried to fix a few tags. Again, I could not get an edit to work.

After that, I posted up in the forums and figured someone removed my restriction.

There was never any restriction. The post you tried to remove female from was also tagged lioness, which implies female. http://e621.net/tag_implication?query=lioness
To get rid of the female tag, you would have had to remove both the lioness and the female tag. Mechaniatrix did this shortly after you posted comments on that post.

Is there an ability to see the list of implied tags so that I know for future tagging issues?

Yep.
There's also a list of aliases.

Riversyde said:
Yep.
There's also a list of aliases.

Thank you.

jazzpaintball said:
Is there an ability to see the list of implied tags so that I know for future tagging issues?

I've usually found it effective enough to just experiment and see what does and doesn't work while tagging. Think hard about all the tags. The wiki may help more than the literal list of tag implications.

The easiest way to find the implication that's screwing you up is to search the tag implications list for the tag you can't remove. That'll give you a list of tags that imply the problematic tag.

Thanks for starting this, I was going to myself if I couldn't find a recent forum on it. I've been trying to tag what I see but I hit a real wall when I find a flash that has lot's in it. Exactly how picky should I be tagging? post #47334 This is an example, do I tag it like that?

Smoochy_Pooch said:
Thanks for starting this, I was going to myself if I couldn't find a recent forum on it. I've been trying to tag what I see but I hit a real wall when I find a flash that has lot's in it. Exactly how picky should I be tagging? post #47334 This is an example, do I tag it like that?

That's a little excessive. It's not bad to be excessive, but you certainly don't need to add that many tags to the average upload.

Smoochy_Pooch said:
Thanks for starting this, I was going to myself if I couldn't find a recent forum on it. I've been trying to tag what I see but I hit a real wall when I find a flash that has lot's in it. Exactly how picky should I be tagging? post #47334 This is an example, do I tag it like that?

Well, tag what you see.
Do you see it? If so, tag it.
It really is that simple.

null0010 said:
That's a little excessive. It's not bad to be excessive, but you certainly don't need to add that many tags to the average upload.

That's what I was thinking, I'll just try to tag what I see that is relevant or stands out after I tag the basics, thanks for clearing it up a bit