Topic: Physical Gender Name Standardization: aliases/discussion: *penis <-> *dick or *pussy <-> *vagina (also cuntboy, dickgirl, herm, maleherm, neuter etc)

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

titanmelon said:
That's a potentially great idea!

It might be a bit more of a hassle at first, but there's no ambiguity or potentially-offensive/misleading nomenclature (character owners et al)

I especially like that the physical features are alphabetized, which makes it easier to remember the order

To be safe, I suppose we could alias the other possible combinations to the main ones:

intersex_pb -> intersex_bp

intersex_bvp -> intersex_bpv
intersex_pbv -> intersex_bpv
intersex_pvb -> intersex_bpv
intersex_vbp -> intersex_bpv
intersex_vpb -> intersex_bpv

intersex_vp -> intersex_pv

It doesn't seem very intuitive to me, but here's some potential issues we might think about:

  • pussy/penis, vagina, breasts/balls (and to a lesser extent cunt, cock, dick, or other logical names like intersex_cb for cuntboy, intersex_dg for dickgirl)
  • People tagging intersex because they don't know what they mean or can't remember which is which (or just don't bother)
  • Them getting mixed up constantly
  • Can't imply maleherm to herm anymore (a minor issue)

Updated by anonymous

parasprite said:
It doesn't seem very intuitive to me, but here's some potential issues we might think about:

  • pussy/penis, vagina, breasts/balls (and to a lesser extent cunt, cock, dick, or other logical names like intersex_cb for cuntboy, intersex_dg for dickgirl)
  • People tagging intersex because they don't know what they mean or can't remember which is which (or just don't bother)
  • Them getting mixed up constantly
  • Can't imply maleherm to herm anymore (a minor issue)

Tits, Nuts, Vagina, Dick, tags using the vague letters could end up as intersex_(invalid). Personally, I think it's better to use it as it is.

Updated by anonymous

New suggested gender tags

Ok, here's an updated suggestion:

Both of you have good points about there being much more room for ambiguity, and the tags themselves are unintuitive by comparison to ones like dickgirl etc.

If we change them, then I feel that whatever they're changed to should be just as easy to remember and obvious from the name.

Note: Apparently neuter as a gender was invalidated away because of ambiguity with 'neutered'

( See forum #144084 ), but no replacement was implemented first.
I can't be bothered to come up with a new term right now, so this post still uses 'neuter' to refer to characters with no sex characteristics

However, discussion in this forum topic can be expanded to include finding a less ambiguous tag for the gender.

(I have some suggestions, but more on that later)

-

Long Version

Genjar said:
Official terms tend to be rather obscure.
For instance, in my field (entomology), we use gynandromorph to refer to organisms that have a mix of male and female characteristics. Which is not the same as herm, since herms have both male and female genitalia.

And while I'm no expert in the medical field, I believe that the proper term for 'cuntboy' would be gynandroid, since gynandry is defined as "a female approximating to the male type of physique".

This is an interesting idea as well, using greek loanwords. Not like it's anything new where the terminology field is concerned. And that's exactly what we're trying to do here- come up with appropriate names for these terms

-
I did a bit of digging (read:lazy wikipeding), and found the following terms:

  • Gynomorph - a male with female features .
    • Comes from (Greek: γυνόμορφ) (gyno- "woman" + -morph "shape", literally "female-like shape")
  • Andromorph - a female with male features
    • Comes from (Greek: ἀνδρόμορφ) (adro- "man" + -morph "shape", literally "male-like shape")

-
If we interpret 'features' here to mean secondary sex characteristics, then by the very definition of TWYS on this site, since physical gender is tagged, a male with female features can't be anything but a 'dickgirl'

And a female with male features can't be anything but a 'cuntboy'

There's also the following term, which was mentioned by Genjar earlier:

Gynandromorph

"A gynandromorph is an organism that contains both male and female characteristics."

But instead of using gynandromorph, I figure we could still keep herm, and tack on the greek gender prefixes to distinguish the different types. Reasons for this include:

  • gynandromorph is still ambiguous, not to mention a handful to type (comparatively minor)
  • Isn't alphabetically consistent/neutral (GynAndromorph)

So if we use '-herm' as the suffix instead of '-morph', and retain the prefixes albeit separately, we have:

Androherm = maleherm
Gynoherm = herm

Short Version

Had the *morph tags mixed up, changed them to be consistent with the official definition and long version

This gives us a total of 7 genders, excluding ambiguous_gender
  • neuter
    • neuter (???)

I was tempted to put neuter and ambiguous in the same category for symmetry, but one is a physical sex, and one is a meta-identifier

Until we come up with a less ambiguous tag for the neuter sex, I'm guessing ambiguous_gender is filling that gap

-
Sources

Wikipedia: Gynomorph
Wiktionary: andro-

Updated by anonymous

Updated the title:

  • *penis <-> *cock -> *penis <-> *dick
  • Added neuter, herm, and maleherm

Updated by anonymous

Some fun rhetoric that's probably been asked in other places:

Why don't we alias female -> cuntgirl

and male -> dickboy ?

Updated by anonymous

titanmelon said:

Short Version
This gives us a total of 7 genders, excluding ambiguous_gender

I like this. It's consistent, direct, highlights various differences clearly, and the terms are reasonably brief.
Does it abbreviate well (and do we care about that?)? I guess.. 'ah gh am gm'

I do feel that there is potentially some confusion to be had due to the fact that androherm describes a male base build whereas andromorph describes a female base build, and similarly for gynoherm / gynomorph. But, I'd say it's still an improvement on the current herm vs dickgirl.

titanmelon said:
Some fun rhetoric that's probably been asked in other places:

Why don't we alias female -> cuntgirl

and male -> dickboy ?

.. would that make 'herm' → 'cuntdickgirl', and I suppose maleherm → 'dickcuntboy'?

With some Javascript, I'm sure that could be arranged for April 1st.

Updated by anonymous

titanmelon said:

Short Version
This gives us a total of 7 genders, excluding ambiguous_gender
  • neuter
    • neuter (???)

I was tempted to put neuter and ambiguous in the same category for symmetry, but one is a physical sex, and one is a meta-identifier

Until we come up with a less ambiguous tag for the neuter sex, I'm guessing ambiguous_gender is filling that gap

-
Sources

Wikipedia: Gynomorph
Wiktionary: andro-]

I just wanted to say I really like these terms and whole-heartedly support. They're not as unsavory/vulgar as the current tags, and if aliased, people searching for the old tags will still find them regardless.

Updated by anonymous

Can't fully-reply to anything atm, but I'm glad the suggestions are well-received!

@savageorange:
Yes, that's one of the things I'm worried about, the potential mixup between the gyno/andro prefixes with regards to whether or not it refers to the physical sex, or body shape

In fact, while revising this post, it turns out (somewhat embarrassingly) that I had the terms mixed up in the short version D: fixed that

andro/gynomorph was/is the closest literal thing I could think of that's also an actual, existing term that means what we use the existing cuntboy/dickgirl tags for

If anyone has a more intuitive way to phrase them, that'd be great

@Kida:
That's probably the best part, with respect to tagging stuff - people can still use the old (read:current) tags and nothing should break

The most likely case of the latter happening would be if people tried to mass tag one of the new andro/gyno* tags, and mixed up the definitions

But I'd like to believe that anyone with mass tagging priveleges would be more careful than that

--

Here's a test of the new tags, in the below post:

I've made 2 versions of the tag lists and examples- one is the current set of terms:
('cuntboy', maleherm etc.), and another set with the new ones (andromorph, androherm etc.),
and see how it goes where comprehension is concerned

Updated by anonymous

Suggestion: Alphabetical pairing order where applicable

This is somewhat more related to conjunctive tagging (see forum #) than gender tagging, but the primary examples are all gender tags, so it's in here.

There was mention of the *_on_* gender tags being aliased to */*, to avoid cases where people were thinking it meant a specific passive/active role

Short version:

Tag the [gender1]/[gender2] tags in ascending alphabetical order, instead of whatever more arbitrary standard is currently being used
Long version

eg. male_on_female would imply that the male is 'active', while the female is 'passive'. As opposed to:

female_on_male, where it's implied that the female is 'active', and the male is 'passive' instead

What I was thinking, is to use a default ordering for all conjunctive tags, so there's potentially no misunderstanding via implied context. A reason why this is still relevant:

male/female would still imply some kind of significance in the ordering, since it's not 'standard', (aside from maybe pre-conceived notions regarding cultural gender roles, but that's not the point of this forum discussion anyway)

We currently have as of posting: (identical tags omitted)

Current terms
  • male/female
  • intersex/female
  • intersex/male
  • 'dickgirl'/male
  • 'dickgirl'/female
  • 'dickgirl'/herm
  • 'dickgirl'/cuntboy
  • herm/female
  • herm/male
  • herm/cuntboy
  • male/ambiguous
  • maleherm/male
  • female/ambiguous
  • maleherm/female
  • 'cuntboy'/male
  • 'cuntboy'/female
  • 'dickgirl'/ambiguous
  • maleherm/herm
  • herm/ambiguous

-

New terms
  • male/female
  • intersex/female
  • intersex/male
  • gynomorph/male
  • gynomorph/female
  • gynomorph/gynoherm
  • gynomorph/andromorph
  • gynoherm/female
  • gynoherm/male
  • gynoherm/andromorph
  • male/ambiguous
  • androherm/male
  • female/ambiguous
  • androherm/female
  • andromorph/male
  • andromorph/female
  • gynomorph/ambiguous
  • gynoherm/ambiguous
  • androherm/gynoherm

And whatever non-identical ones were missed

As you can see, the more complex the set of individual tags, the resultant combinations also become expotentially complex

Which is why figuring out, and sticking to a standard format is crucial to tag uniformity, and avoiding mistagging without having to rely on aliasing every single possible combination to keep things consistent

---

My suggestion about it is very simple:

Sort everything, where relevant, in ascending alphabetical order. So,

Current terms
  • male/female -> female/male
  • female/ambiguous -> ambiguous/female
  • maleherm/female -> female/androherm

-

New terms
  • male/female -> female/male
  • female/ambiguous -> ambiguous/female
  • gynomorph/andromorph -> andromorph/gynomorph

etc.

That way, there's no confusion about who's on top or such, and that could be handled by a separate pair of tags (more on that later)

Updated by anonymous

RE: The *morph confusion thing-

If confusion does arise from the andromorph/gynomorph tags,

i.e People think the andro/gyno- prefix refers to the penis/vagina, and not the body type respectively

Then we could possibly reverse them, to whichever one is the most intuitive

-morph means 'shape', so the tags are literally:

andromorph: maleshape (not male genitals)

  • so it means 'cuntboy', which is the only one out of the relevant pair with a male bodyshape, by definition

gynomorph: femaleshape (not female genitals)

  • so it means 'dickgirl', which is the only one out of the relevant pair with a female bodyshape, by definition

Updated by anonymous

  • Renamed forum title to:

Physical Gender Name Standardization: aliases/discussion: *penis <-> *dick or *pussy <-> *vagina (also cuntboy, dickgirl, herm, maleherm, neuter etc)

Would've added the 'Advanced [..]' prefix, but right now this is everyone's business

(not to mention the title would take a day or so to read)

  • Updated OP with short version of proposed gender tags

Updated by anonymous

tl;dr - you can use pussy for non-mammals and still be correct about it

After doing some tagging research with some of the tags like these, I think it may actually be *more* beneficial to alias the 'standard' names to the slang ones. Here's why, using the more readily-apparent example:

Long Version
  • Colloquially, 'pussy' is incredibly ambiguous, and can really refer to any part of the a human female's reproductive system (but is usually used for the outer, visible part..obviously)

While this makes things harder to identify unambiguously, it's actually a benefit in cases where the character doesn't have a 'vagina', in the strict definition of the term (cloaca, genital_slit in ambiguous cases, etc.)

(emphasis mine)

  • (anatomy) The passage leading from the opening of the vulva to the cervix of the uterus for copulation and childbirth in female mammals.
  • (zoology) A similar part in some invertebrates.
  • (botany) A sheath-like structure, such as the leaf of a grass that surrounds a stem.
  • (colloquial) The vulva.

source [wiktionary]

The usage notes from the above source gives a rather appropriate analogy:

(emphasis mine)

Vagina in general colloquial use refers to the vulva or female genitals generally, but in anatomy the vagina is a wholly internal structure and calling the vulva the vagina is analogous to calling the lips the mouth or throat.

-

The point here is:

-> In cases of species who don't have a 'vagina in the strict, anatomical sense of the word (i.e. no 'birth canal'),
'pussy' is a rather fitting tag to identify the similar concept, without being 'incorrect' about name usage

This presumably extends (hah) to the male case as well- dick, cock etc, for species with no 'real 'penis

Updated by anonymous

I'm not really understanding why you're listing cloaca and genital slit. Can you explain that bit further?

Updated by anonymous

That's a really good question,

here are the main reasons why, using an example:

post #506464

currently tagged male genital_slit

(If you're reading this, please don't change these tags for now, until more discussion happens about it, thanks)

If you didn't know it was a part of a set, you'd likely be inclined to tag it with female pussy

which isn't wrong by any means, since that's what it looks like based on definitions of the tag female and pussy

The problem here though, is that genital slit is also technically right

And depending on species/art style/other, so is cloaca
-
Wiki for genital_slit states:

On anatomically correct scalies and avians, this should normally replaced with a cloaca, which encompasses the anus as well, but many artists prefer to draw both orifices separated. Use this tag when it is the case.

So you could tag it with pussy, genital slit, and still be 'right'
-

As for cloaca, posts like:

post #141986

could get pussy, and cloaca, and still technically be right

Since people who search for either term would likely be interested in that sort of scene

Updated by anonymous

That said, I'm still not too sure what would happen with regards to the gender of the charmeleon in that first example

female is technically correct, but so is male (since that's the gender in the comic series)

However, the latter conflicts with TWYS, but it's a bit silly to have a different gender if it's part of a linear set

I'm inclined to think we should tag both male and female, but the thing about that is,

people who search for male, and see that post without the context of the comic are likely to be confused. Then, they can either:

  • notice it's part of a set and enjoy the comic, or
  • complain the image isn't tagged 'correctly' because it's not based on TWYS

Bit of a grey area with that, but TMK, TWYS states that posts in a Pool still get tagged individually- not using the context of the other pages/images in the Pool

Updated by anonymous

Genjar

Former Staff

titanmelon said:
here are the main reasons why, using an example:

post #506464

currently tagged male genital_slit

Yeah. You tagged it as such. Even though the admins had already been contacted to settle the tag war, and Ippiki left a comment saying that it should be tagged as a female. :/

Updated by anonymous

titanmelon said:
That's a really good question,

here are the main reasons why, using an example:

post #506464

currently tagged male genital_slit

(If you're reading this, please don't change these tags for now, until more discussion happens about it, thanks)

Whoops, saw the image with its tags before I saw your post due to there being a new page now.

If you didn't know it was a part of a set, you'd likely be inclined to tag it with female pussy

which isn't wrong by any means, since that's what it looks like based on definitions of the tag female and pussy

The problem here though, is that genital slit is also technically right

I fail to understand how "Genital Slit" is right if it isn't shown to have other genitals in this particular image, though. It's the kind of tag used for males, when it's obvious that it's a penis containing slit.

Wiki for genital_slit states:

On anatomically correct scalies and avians, this should normally replaced with a cloaca, which encompasses the anus as well, but many artists prefer to draw both orifices separated. Use this tag when it is the case.

So you could tag it with pussy, genital slit, and still be 'right'

Um, I don't think we're reading the same thing here. The cloaca replaces the pussy, meaning you can't tag pussy on cloaca.

As for cloaca, posts like:

post #141986

could get pussy, and cloaca, and still technically be right

Since people who search for either term would likely be interested in that sort of scene

Normally a person would look for posts by something along the lines of female rating:e

Updated by anonymous

titanmelon said:
That's a really good question,

here are the main reasons why, using an example:

post #506464

currently tagged male genital_slit[/quote] i usually take note if the "slit" in question has a clit (a visible bump) at one end of it before writing it off as genital slit. that's also if there are no other female attributes such as breasts visible before considering the "slit" in question. that said, there is no clit or any other female aspects visible anywhere in that pic thus it is indeed a male (well, given how male reptiles tend to have internal naughty bits rather than external like mammals.). the pics that come after it in that set confirm the assumption that this charmeleon is male but that can be set aside for this discussion since you were just talking about that one particular pic.

Updated by anonymous

@Genjar:

Genjar said:
Even though the admins had already been contacted to settle the tag war, and Ippiki left a comment saying that it should be tagged as a female. :/

Right, that's why female was kept, in addition to male being added (that was more than a year ago btw), but looks like someone removed the female tag afterwards too

Which is exactly the point which still remains in the open. For cases like these:

  • people who know the context of the comic are determined to keep it that way, even if it conflicts with twys
  • people who firmly believe twys should be upheld regardless of any other external information at all aside from the post itself, even if that comes from the same comic

@Furrin_Gok:

Furrin_Gok said:
Whoops, saw the image with its tags before I saw your post due to there being a new page now.

That's ok :v
Honestly I was half-expecting it to be changed anyway, since it still does go against current TWYS policy

But thought it would be a nice example to use here (especially since active discussion of that died down a while ago)

Anyway,

--

I fail to understand how "Genital Slit" is right if it isn't shown to have other genitals in this particular image, though. It's the kind of tag used for males, when it's obvious that it's a penis containing slit.

Hm, that's a very good point

Obviously [citation needed] a human, humanoid/anthro/feral non-scalie, etc. with a humanoid_pussy wouldn't get tagged with genital slit, since everyone's fairly certain that it's not a genital_slit:

post #676951

But then there are the ambiguous cases:

post #736676
note the clitoris
-
post #593789
multiple genders in the same scene? Which ones are female for sure, or male with a genital slit?
-
post #611556
-
post #864867
anus, or vagina?

Where it *could* be a female, (or a herm in the last one)

Those are the caese I'm talking about when I say genital_slit could be used in addition to pussy, and both could technically be right

Remember: this is assuming TWYS is followed in its most literal sense, and without personal assumptions delegating an 'exclusive scenario'

-

Um, I don't think we're reading the same thing here. The cloaca replaces the pussy, meaning you can't tag pussy on cloaca.

Well, there are some animals with both a cloaca (urogential orifice) and separate anus (such as kangaroos)

So in cases like those it's hard to say for sure which is which

Even if that wasn't true, there are people who don't even know what a cloaca is in the first place, and tag it with pussy (such is the second example in my previous post)

And that's not really wrong, imo. If they see a pussy based on common knowledge (or it's ambiguous/anus area is hidden), then tagging it with pussy shouldn't be 'incorrect'

Since a search for pussy OR cloaca would both show the post, and reflect the intent of said search in either case

-

Normally a person would look for posts by something along the lines of female rating:e

Hm, can't really say anything about this, since I have no real clue what tags people use to find content on here

(Really hope Genjar's idea for a way to chart tag search terms becomes something)

Updated by anonymous

treos said:
i usually take note if the "slit" in question has a clit (a visible bump) at one end of it before writing it off as genital slit. that's also if there are no other female attributes such as breasts visible before considering the "slit" in question.

Yeah, exactly!

It's somewhat easier to check for a clitoris on the more realistic/detailed posts, but on the toony/simpler ones, that's a bit difficult, since sometimes the clitoris isn't even drawn at all

like post #593789 from the example above (especially the middle row)

-

that said, there is no clit or any other female aspects visible anywhere in that pic thus it is indeed a male (well, given how male reptiles tend to have internal naughty bits rather than external like mammals.). the pics that come after it in that set confirm the assumption that this charmeleon is male but that can be set aside for this discussion since you were just talking about that one particular pic.

Yup, and that's the problem:

  • It's correct to tag female, based on the current twys rules (if we don't question the issue of there being a clitoris or not)
  • But even setting aside the rest of the comic like you said, it's also correct to tag male, since there's no clitoris, breasts, or feminine figure (this becomes even more true the further away from human/humanoid you get, and closer to feral)

So..which one is 'right'? And why?

I'm thinking we could tag both genders, with the relevant tags (female pussy, male genital_slit) for cases like that

  • Which still follows TWYS (the male case to a lesser extent, but only in a more humanoid context)
  • Allows everyone to be 'right', and most importantly,
  • Allows the relevant content to be accurately found with the right searches
    • and blacklisted with the right tags

But I'm not too sure about the long-term effects (if any) of tagging ambiguous cases like this with multiple genders/differing trait tags

--

Hmm, should probably make a separate topic for cloaca/genital slit gender tagging, since that's not really related to term standardization
forum #190431 - Tagging Policy Discussion: Feral anatomy and tagging genders:[..] (Apr. 2016)

Until someone responds about the issues in the OP, I think it's fine to keep the discussion in here for now

Updated by anonymous

Another example of similar dilemmas is

forum #186509 - Female hyenas and TWYS (Mar. 2016)

-

Hm, that's 3 cases so far
Maybe I really should make a new forum topic for feral anatomy and genders, if one doesn't already exist forum #190431 - Tagging Policy Discussion: Feral anatomy and tagging genders:[..] (Apr. 2016)

Updated by anonymous

Ok, moved the non-human anatomy tag discussion to:

forum #190431 - Tagging Policy Discussion: Feral anatomy and tagging genders:[..] (Apr. 2016)

If you want to discuss tagging genders on posts with non-human anatomy tags like:

etc, Please go there instead

---

Updated by anonymous

Genjar

Former Staff

titanmelon said:
Right, that's why female was kept, in addition to male being added (that was more than a year ago btw), but looks like someone removed the female tag afterwards too

So you're suggesting that characters should be tagged as multiple genders?

I tried suggesting the same when I was a newbie. Then several admins yelled at me for making stupid suggestions.

More tags is not always good. For example, if that post were to be tagged as both male and female, it'd show up whenever anyone searches for male female and be excluded when someone searches for female -male. And having both also means that it'd end up blacklisted more. (From what I've heard, male and female are surprisingly common blacklist tags.)

titanmelon said:
But then there are the ambiguous cases:

post #736676
note the clitoris

Most animals have a clitoris, including crocodilians and some other reptiles. So cloaca and clitoris aren't mutually exclusive, though that's clearly not a cloaca.

Which also means that humanoid_pussy is badly overtagged. All mammals and some non-mammals have a clitoris, it's not a humanoid feature.

Updated by anonymous

@Genjar:

Definitely agree with you about the humanoid pussy tag being overused for the time being, there are a variety of reasons for that (see below)

Also, I am aware that most animals have a clitoris, though that's not why those posts have the tag.
It's more about easily finding the more borderline/interesting examples for later discussion than consistency right now (see below)

Short/incomplete reason is:

  • there needs to be more discussion about what exactly counts as a 'humanoid pussy' on non human/oid characters
    • which brings up the question of what counts as a 'pussy' in the first place
      • which brings up the issue of vagina/pussy & penis/dick etc. inconsistency
        • which is one of the topics of discussion in this forum, especially an observation made here: forum #190368

This is not even addressing the point about how a non-insignificant percentage of both artists and non-artists are ridiculously unfamiliar with female anatomy compared to male, and why that's a problem when it comes to tagging humanoid vs non-humanoid genitals (all sexes)

--

So you're suggesting that characters should be tagged as multiple genders?

I am, but not likely in the way you may be thinking about (although you'd have a very good idea at the least)

More on this later

-

Found a couple inconsistent tags of the cock_* variety, might as well mention most of them (>=50 count) while I'm at it:

--

See also some discussion in:

forum #142219 - Tag Alias: masturbation_sleeve -> cocksleeve (Nov. 2014)

Updated by anonymous

Recent discussion update

Some very interesting suggestions and discourse in the following forum:

forum #195804 - Slur Tags (Jun. 2016)

-
KiraNoot suggested the following (presumably for the intersex tags):

--

slyroon and Chessax raised some interesting points about the -morph tags, namely being less intuitive [initially, which is rather important when it comes to a big potential switch-over like this]

  • Chessax proposed an alternate system based on tagging visible sex characteristics, combined into a single tag

Pretty sure the latter was suggested in this forum as well, will take another look and try to consolidate everything

--

Ratte and NMNY mentioned the importance of:

---

  • added forum to OP

Updated by anonymous

parasprite said:
It doesn't seem very intuitive to me, but here's some potential issues we might think about:

Took another look at this and it does seem to be much less intuitive if you don't know what the letters are:

  • pussy/penis, vagina, breasts/balls (and to a lesser extent cunt, cock, dick, or other logical names like intersex_cb for cuntboy, intersex_dg for dickgirl)

This is the biggest issue with that system, from what I can tell. Chessax and Lance_Armstrong proposed a modified variant of this
-

  • People tagging intersex because they don't know what they mean or can't remember which is which (or just don't bother)

Yeah, see the next point
-

  • Them getting mixed up constantly

Hm, mixing up the terms shouldn't *theoretically* be an issue, if the aliases are consistent,
but there's no intuitive way to tell which tags are which from looking at them alone [especially compared to the more common gender tags]

I'd say the 'easiest' solution for those last 2 issues would be to pick a set of standardized tags [male female breasts, balls, etc], and spell them out,
but you'll end up with ridiculously long tags, and that's just per-character:

male_penis_ballsfemaleherm_penis_pussy_breasts_balls

etc.

Shortcut Aliases

hm..maybe an alias shortcut?
If the order is standardized [read:alphabetical order], then it would be easy to have unique aliases,

Note: for the purposes of this post, intersex and altersex are interchangeable terms that identify the same set of tags

[sex meta identifier]_[primary sex characteristics]_[secondary sex characteristics]

  • male_penis_testicles
    • /mpt
  • female_vagina_breasts
    • /fvb
  • intersex_penis_breasts_testicles
    • /ipbt
  • intersex_vagina
    • /iv
  • herm_penis_vagina_testicles
    • /hpvt
  • herm_penis_vagina_breasts_testicles
    • /hpvbt
  • Can't imply maleherm to herm anymore (a minor issue)

Never really liked the inconsistent maleherm/herm term dichotomy, tbh

imo, that should be maleherm, femaleherm, with herm used an umbrella tag for both ie

  • herm(aphrodite?)
    • femaleherm
    • maleherm

Updated by anonymous

Changelog/Update
  • May be able to be used with the andro/gyno* tags, with the latter being umbrellas for all physical and secondary [tertiary in non-humanoids?] sex characteristics [link slyroon's posts about possible ambiguity

-

Todo:

  • update OP with additional proposed system
  • [offtopic] investigate possibilities regarding alias shortcuts as 'system shortcuts' (/[foo])
    • API similarities?

Updated by anonymous

titanmelon said:

  • neuter
    • neuter (???)

As a trans girl and a software engineer, I feel like *morph does a good job of avoiding slurs while still being a good descriptor for tagging. (It has my vote! :3) I'd also like to suggest that the tags should fall under altersex, as intersex pertains to anatomy at birth, whereas altersex makes no assumptions.

Updated by anonymous

Ada said:
As a trans girl and a software engineer, I feel like *morph does a good job of avoiding slurs while still being a good descriptor for tagging. (It has my vote! :3) I'd also like to suggest that the tags should fall under altersex, as intersex pertains to anatomy at birth, whereas altersex makes no assumptions.

Good to know!

Yeah, I've been meaning to update the OP for that to include altersex, rather than intersex as an umbrella tag

(See https://e621.net/forum/show/195912 and the corresponding forum for more discussion about that)
-

  • Updated OP to account for the 'newly-proposed', non-binary, unstated, possibily non-transitive physical gender category [intersex -> altersex]
    • Keep in mind that this is obviously not an official change, but any official ones will be noted in here
  • Added some links to other discussions
  • Added @GDelscribe:'s summary/tally of proposed systems/terminology

Updated by anonymous

I've tried to understand the updated system.
In fact I started trying to count up an exhaustive list of the tags involved. I stopped because the following issue came up:

  • What do you do when anatomy cannot be reasonably inferred (eg. face-only pics)? Saying for the sake of argument that the face appears masculine, is it sensible to tag 'male_penis_testicles' on such a pic, or should it simply use 'male' in that case?

(secondarily, it also makes me wonder about pics that include penis while testicles are clearly absent, and how they should be tagged. I would guess that such pics exist, but don't know for sure.)

Updated by anonymous

savageorange said:
I've tried to understand the updated system.
In fact I started trying to count up an exhaustive list of the tags involved. I stopped because the following issue came up:

  • What do you do when anatomy cannot be reasonably inferred (eg. face-only pics)? Saying for the sake of argument that the face appears masculine, is it sensible to tag 'male_penis_testicles' on such a pic, or should it simply use 'male' in that case?

(secondarily, it also makes me wonder about pics that include penis while testicles are clearly absent, and how they should be tagged. I would guess that such pics exist, but don't know for sure.)

What do you mean Male_Penis_testicles? That's not a tag.

Updated by anonymous

Further explanations about the consolidated tagging system:


@savageorange:

savageorange said:
I've tried to understand the updated system.
In fact I started trying to count up an exhaustive list of the tags involved. I stopped because the following issue came up:

Yeah, the list can definitely get pretty big, if calculated both non-commutatively + non-redundantly

The good news is though, that we only need a handful of those for tagging purposes (~20 total, including the basic ones like female male which already exist)

-

What do you do when anatomy cannot be reasonably inferred (eg. face-only pics)? Saying for the sake of argument that the face appears masculine, is it sensible to tag 'male_penis_testicles' on such a pic,

Really good question!

The correct- or at least the most sensible solution to that seems to be:

or should it simply use 'male' in that case?

That way, the tag hierarchy is preserved
(male* in this example, being the broadest category- and hence the easiest-applied)

--

(There's also ambiguous_form, but I'm not really sure if it's related to the point you were making about the proposal)

---

I made a quick list ..which took about a solid hour+ that should hopefully explain everything a bit better,

-> You can find a more detailed explanation here <-

Updated by anonymous

Changelog/Update
  • updated OP to include recent proposed systems (not the main list but below)
  • mentioned a summary of this post in more detail here in forum #195804 - Slur Tags (Jun. 2016)
  • linked a whole bunch of posts to other forum posts via other forum posts (..posts)
    • fixed some less-specific links by pointing them to the correct post
    • todo:update rest of links/placeholders

Updated by anonymous

Listing of conjunctive sex-gender tags:

Forgot to put a summary of this list in here,

Context: Summary of all the valid tags (with relevant aliasing),

in the system proposed in post #197260

Count: 3 (4)
  • female
    • female_vagina
    • ferale_breasts
      • female_vagina_breasts
Count: 3 (4)
  • male
    • male_penis
    • male_testicles
      • male_penis_testicles
Count: 6 (7)
  • altersex
    • altersex_penis
      • altersex_penis_breasts
      • altersex_penis_testicles
        • altersex_penis_breasts_testicles
      • altersex_testicles
    • altersex_vagina
Count: 4 (5)
  • herm
    • herm_penis_vagina
      • herm_penis_vagina_breasts
      • herm_penis_vagina_testicles
      • herm_penis_vagina_breasts_testicles
Full list of valid tags and shortcut aliases
Count: 3 (4)
  • female : /f
    • female_vagina : /fv
    • ferale_breasts : /fb
      • female_vagina_breasts : /fvb
Count: 3 (4)
  • male : /m
    • male_penis : /mp
    • male_testicles : /mt
      • male_penis_testicles : /mpt
Count: 6 (7)
  • altersex : /a
    • altersex_penis : /ap
      • altersex_penis_breasts : /apb
      • altersex_penis_testicles : /apt
        • altersex_penis_breasts_testicles : /apbt
      • altersex_testicles : /at
    • altersex_vagina : /av
Count: 4 (5)
  • herm /h
    • herm_penis_vagina : /hpv
      • herm_penis_vagina_breasts : /hpvb
      • herm_penis_vagina_testicles : /hpvt
      • herm_penis_vagina_breasts_testicles : /hpvbt

Updated by anonymous

@savage_orange

Is tagging sex important when you cant see the sex parts? It doesnt seem like a relevant thing to tag since you cannot infer based on a face alone.

Updated by anonymous

GDelscribe said:
@savage_orange

Is tagging sex important when you cant see the sex parts? It doesnt seem like a relevant thing to tag since you cannot infer based on a face alone.

Yes, because people like to search not just for porn, but for safe or questionable images, too. Maybe you just want to find some images of cute females, having the images that are feminine without other traces tagged as female helps that search.

Updated by anonymous

pussy/vagina & penis/cock etc

Here's a quote from @NotMeNotYou:
https://e621.net/forum/show/201312

NotMeNotYou said:
What we tag as pussy is a combination of vulva, clitoris, labia majora and labia minora, depending on what is actually visible. While the penis has a single word to properly describe the combination of the glans, corpus, and foreskin (if applicable) we lack a scientific term for the combination of those for the female genitalia.

Pussy is the most neutral term that does this, as such it is used.

Vagina on the other hand would be completely wrong since that only describes the actual vagina, which, as we all know, is the internal flesh tube and not something we actually tag, or actually are able to see on the majority of posts tagged with pussy.

----
There's also this post I made/linked to earlier in this forum about a similar line of thought

Might probably add these to the OP somewhere for reference

Updated by anonymous

titanmelon said:

pussy/vagina & penis/cock etc

Here's a quote from @NotMeNotYou:
https://e621.net/forum/show/201312

----
There's also this post I made/linked to earlier in this forum about a similar line of thought

Might probably add these to the OP somewhere for reference

By the way I added a response to this with the dictionary definition of vulva which fits the exact same purpose as pussy is being used so.

Updated by anonymous

I think gender should be consistent when you look at several pictures in a pool. It's not user friendly when you bump into a pool or comic to then find out that the character is of the other sex.

I also think that the "tag what you see" rule should be flexible. If you don't know, then it applies.

Updated by anonymous

Genjar

Former Staff

Sorrowless said:
I think gender should be consistent when you look at several pictures in a pool.

That'd be problematic. Taggers are more likely to stumble on a random post in the pool, than read it in order.

Having to check the whole pool before being able to tag a single post in it is not feasible. Especially not for long comics that are posted sporadically, page by page.

Some kind of combined tag cloud for pools might be useful. Maybe it could be automatically generated and listed on the first page of the pool... Though I can imagine that it'd end up including tons of tags for some comics.

Updated by anonymous

Genjar said:
That'd be problematic. Taggers are more likely to stumble on a random post in the pool, than read it in order.

Having to check the whole pool before being able to tag a single post in it is not feasible. Especially not for long comics that are posted sporadically, page by page.

Some kind of combined tag cloud for pools might be useful. Maybe it could be automatically generated and listed on the first page of the pool... Though I can imagine that it'd end up including tons of tags for some comics.

Taggers stumbling into a random post in a pool can be forgiven. My proposal was that knowledge trumps over visuals for those reviewing an entire pool.

Updated by anonymous

Update
  • added forum #216820 - Root Tag Suggestion: Binary_gender/sex (Dec. 2016)

I'll try to update the suggestions in the OP eventually with regards to forum #195804 asap so things can get moving again
(it was all the way on page 3 as of posting, believe it or not)

Updated by anonymous

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