Thirtyeight said:
What do you hope to accomplish with these comments? The mods have already decided to change the tags, so the only thing to be done is decide what they will change into.

This...

Also people the terms subject to change here have always been slurs,what you call politically incorrect, they were made to be this way. Their primary use and meaning has never changed.

The merry-go-round arguement you people are commenting over has no ground to be applicable here.

BlueDingo said:
Aka. The PC merry-go-round. They didn't care when I made that point before and they're not going to start caring now.

yep

Ruku said:
The merry-go-round arguement you people are commenting over has no ground to be applicable here.

it is

sorry, couldn't resist such an obvious moment.

It's like when a child knows he isn't going to get what he wants, so he just keeps whining to ruin it for everybody.

"Entitled" is the key word here.

Treos, you LITERALLY said you would back of this thread, yet you keep coming back.

If you don't have anything good to add on to this thread, DON'T POST!

Saying "yep" and "it is" is NOT A REAL ARGUMENT.

#entitled

Thirtyeight said:
You know, I kind of like those. Short and to the point.

It gets the point across. I personally dont like them but I will support them. They work.

treos said:
sorry, couldn't resist such an obvious moment.

Leave the thread. If you do not, I will suspend you.

Back on topic and quit with the personal attacks. You're all supposedly adults, now act like it.

GDelscribe said:
It gets the point across. I personally dont like them but I will support them. They work.

Fembod is good enough for me, it avoids most problems such as underscores and complex strings of letters. But Mabod is a common surname..

Genjar said:
Fembod is good enough for me, it avoids most problems such as underscores and complex strings of letters. But Mabod is a common surname..

Hence part of why Im a little wary for it but. How about masc instead of just ma?

The only problem is that "mascbod" and "fembod" don't sound specific to intersex characters.

Thirtyeight said:
The only problem is that "mascbod" and "fembod" don't sound specific to intersex characters.

While fair its not only "intersex" characters who fit this archetype.

Do you hav3 any suggestion on how to improve them or ways we could better fit into that archetype/schema

Thirtyeight said:
The only problem is that "mascbod" and "fembod" don't sound specific to intersex characters.

It sounds like feminine Body and masculine Body.

Munkelzahn said:
No matter which tags are agreed on now, they'll become politically incorrect after some time, and the whole discussion will begin again.

To hell with political correctness, it's the bane of our existence.

fox_whisper85 said:
To hell with political correctness, it's the bane of our existence.

It also is not up for discussion. The potential new tags are.

Stay on topic or leave the thread.

PlüschTiger said:
It sounds like feminine Body and masculine Body.

Exactly. However I assume we are keeping "male" and "female", so we need tags that reflect intersex characters.

The amount of times that the "opposition to the tag changes" had degraded these BEAUTIFUL KINDHEARTED admins is very sad.

Hey admins, the next time someone tries to derail this thread: BAN THEM! (temporally.) Don't even hesitate.

PS: A certain someone has sent me something proving how hot headed they are.

Thirtyeight said:
Exactly. However I assume we are keeping "male" and "female", so we need tags that reflect intersex characters.

The advice of the admins, the gender (between the legs) in the focus, most have not even noticed. The only draftsman who has participated here, and has confirmed one or two of my reflections, has withdrawn from the discussion, probably because it leads to nothing.

https://e621.net/forum/show/213537

This treat is on page 31 and the only ones who still seriously try to solve the problem are ignored and go into the discussions. Discussing about things which are partly not even something to do with the topic (see admonitions of the admins). I can understand this, because I can not take the Tread myself seriously.

I said already once, makes it easy. Keep the two terms, but replace the words in them against less bad ones. Example: penis woman, vagina man. It is not perfect but a solution with which some might live far better.

A general proposal, to everyone. Collect all suggestions for words with which you can replace the two. Then make a survey, here on e621. That goes when like take a 0 post. Every word comes in a comment and each user can evaluate there. The link is integrated into a separate treat with instructions and then everyone can vote. Words which are sorted out by admins are listed separately but can not be evaluated. Matching names come in a single comment (example: feminine _intersex, masculine_intersex). Foreign commentaries are prohibited. Both up and down ratings are allowed.

Which gets the most points wins, or comes with 2 other variants in a discussion round. The final choice can then be made.

Serperior09876 said:
The amount of times that the "opposition to the tag changes" had degraded these BEAUTIFUL KINDHEARTED admins is very sad.

Hey admins, the next time someone tries to derail this thread: BAN THEM! (temporally.) Don't even hesitate.

PS: A certain someone has sent me something proving how hot headed they are.

Hey Serperior09876, you're doing exactly that. We have a protocol to follow just like you. If you have nothing of value to add, don't post.

Ratte said:
Hey Serperior09876, you're doing exactly that. We have a protocol to follow just like you. If you have nothing of value to add, don't post.

Sorry.

Yeah, i thank we should have a vote on this one.

PlüschTiger said:
The advice of the admins, the gender (between the legs) in the focus, most have not even noticed. The only draftsman who has participated here, and has confirmed one or two of my reflections, has withdrawn from the discussion, probably because it leads to nothing.

https://e621.net/forum/show/213537

Haven't withdrawn, just watching to see where this thread leads since I still stand by two of the suggestions in my post.

I have since come to believe "andromorph" and "gynomorph" are not good alternatives. They're too confusing.

I think female_with_penis/male_with_vagina would be best, but it's been brought up that it may go a little overboard when you add on things. However, I wonder if that could be corrected by just adding a tag ("female_with_penis" + "on_feral" vs "female_with_penis_on_feral", but that would involve "on_feral" to be its own tag and to be used often).

So what's with all the silence all of a sudden?

If we make it "female_with_penis/male_with_vagina" we could shorten it to just "female_penis/male_vagina". I also like "demigirl/demiboy" and "fembod/mascbod".

Serperior09876 said:
If we make it "female_with_penis/male_with_vagina" we could shorten it to just "female_penis/male_vagina".

That's a great idea! Saves five characters and to the point :)

Serperior09876 said:
So what's with all the silence all of a sudden?

If we make it "female_with_penis/male_with_vagina" we could shorten it to just "female_penis/male_vagina". I also like "demigirl/demiboy" and "fembod/mascbod".

To bring up genjar's point again that is certainly valid.

-Having male or female in the tag name could lead to a lot of mistags ether thru people forgeting the underscore between the words or assuming that just because there is male or female in the tag they can also tag male or female desperately as well, youed be hard pressed in finding and correcting the former as both components have over 30k worth of posts.-

the male and female component in the tags name would have to be replaced with an alternative like masculine/feminine or andromorph/gynomorph

"Masculine_with_vagina" and "Feminine_with_penis"/"Masculine_vagina" and "Feminine_penis" sound like they would work too, in that case.

I found myself tripping up on "andromorph"/"gynomorph" after a bit, but that may just be me.

wolftacos said:
I found myself tripping up on "andromorph"/"gynomorph" after a bit, but that may just be me.

I feel like that's because they're not in use yet. You aren't actually tagging with them. Once in use, and once there's aliases to go with them, people would get used to them very quickly.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the difficulties that people seem to think they'd have with them would disappear in less than a week of use.

But hey, they don't seem to be very popular recently, so there's a good chance we'll never know.

Honestly I'm not a fan of most of the recent suggestions here.

Clawdragons said:
I feel like that's because they're not in use yet. You aren't actually tagging with them. Once in use, and once there's aliases to go with them, people would get used to them very quickly.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the difficulties that people seem to think they'd have with them would disappear in less than a week of use.

But hey, they don't seem to be very popular recently, so there's a good chance we'll never know.

Honestly I'm not a fan of most of the recent suggestions here.

I still say the best way to do it a field test, worst thing that happens is we have to change the alias back, woops, no harm really done.

I think that we take the best suggestions we have and put them up for a vote, just make sure everybody knows about it.

Can we vote in some way on this site or do we have to let the admins decide?

Serperior09876 said:
I think that we take the best suggestions we have and put them up for a vote, just make sure everybody knows about it.

Can we vote in some way on this site or do we have to let the admins decide?

We "vote" by voicing our +1's here. I say +1 to just trying out Andro/Gyno- morph for now.

Furrin_Gok said:
We "vote" by voicing our +1's here. I say +1 to just trying out Andro/Gyno- morph for now.

+1 for this from me as well because the worst thing that can happen is they get tried out and it doesnt work and we revert the change.

Adding my +1 for andro/gynomorph now. It's the shortest, and I bet I'll get used to it very fast once I start seeing it :)

+1 for fbmg_intersex (fembod) and mbfg_intersex (mabod/mascbod).

Also adding my support to some form of andromorph/gynomorph it is one of the fuw viable options suggested so far that wouldnt cause issue in the */* sex partners tags and has documented usage for a similar propose as ours in the real world. +1

Also just for quick bare bones run down, this is a list of just about all noted suggestions from page 1 to page 28 minus the 2 or 3 sugestions that were honestly a fucking joke>>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bDz8wFCSSMAqw0qD9mlJui8l_34rSSjEiuqMyR9GrgM/edit?usp=sharing

titanmelon would have actual links to comments denoting the advantages and disadvantages of some of the more popular ones.

forum #140749
forum #199781
...

+1 for andromorph/gynomorph.

Oh heck are we coming to an agreement? Awesome!

Clawdragons said:
Oh heck are we coming to an agreement? Awesome!

It would seem so, certainly closer then this thread has ever been before ironicly the suggestion we finally seem to be settling on was one of the first thrown out there might i add not even from this thread but other much older threads on the subject that have gone forgotten. so pretty much gone full circle on this now

Ruku said:
It would seem so, certainly closer then this thread has ever been before ironicly the suggestion we finally seem to be settling on was one of the first thrown out there might i add not even from this thread but other much older threads on the subject that have gone forgotten. so pretty much gone full circle on this now

I'm not surprised though. As I said, I felt like the opposition to the terms was that they were unfamiliar - people have had a chance to get familiar with them, so they can see the advantages now.

Ruku said:

-Having male or female in the tag name could lead to a lot of mistags ether thru people forgeting the underscore between the words or assuming that just because there is male or female in the tag they can also tag male or female desperately as well, youed be hard pressed in finding and correcting the former as both components have over 30k worth of posts.-

the male and female component in the tags name would have to be replaced with an alternative like masculine/feminine or andromorph/gynomorph

You have the same problem with other word groups, so that is no argument against "male_with_pussy". If you want to replace it with your mentioned words, it would be longer and can not be translated. Even others in the world must be able to translate that.

Ruku said:
Also adding my support to some form of andromorph/gynomorph it is one of the fuw viable options suggested so far that wouldnt cause issue in the */* sex partners tags and has documented usage for a similar propose as ours in the real world. +1

Where is the gender focus that the admins want? Theoretically, the two are, therefore, out of the election because the focus is on gender. In addition, it can not be translated and no one knows the meaning of (andro, gyno). What does morph have to do with it?

"demigirl/demiboy" + 0,5
"female_penis/male_vagina" +1
"female_with_penis/male_with_vagina" +1
"fbmg_intersex (fembod)/mbfg_intersex (mabod/mascbod)" -1
"andromorph/gynomorph" -1
"Masculine_with_vagina" and "Feminine_with_penis" -1
"Masculine_vagina"/"Feminine_penis" -1
◦vagentleman -1
phalady -1

Plusch, are you removing the negative votes from people who later changed their votes?

PlüschTiger said:
In addition, it can not be translated and no one knows the meaning of (andro, gyno). What does morph have to do with it?

Andromorph / Gynomorph are latin-based, and thus don't need to be translated.

Gyno means "female" - as can be seen in words like gynecology, and gynecomastia. Andro means "male". Both terms can be seen in a term like "Androgyny."

"Morph" means "form". Which I think makes sense as being related in this context.

Anyway, I don't think we can expect to hold out for 100% approval here, so, if possible, can we get an admin to weigh in here? It seems like we've had more of a consensus recently than at any other point... What exactly is the criteria for when we can consider actually trying some possibility out?

As long as there's a wiki page for each of them giving a definition for how the tag's used, along with appropriate aliases, I do think andromorph/gynomorph is likely to be the best option that's likely to be found. I would personally feel eeeh about trans* tags, since looking objectively at furry art a good chunk of the characters that would be tagged aren't trans (I realize this falls under TWYK; this is more of a respect thing - tagging non-trans, altersex characters as trans comes off as pretty disrespectful to actual trans* persons).

Furrin_Gok said:
Plusch, are you removing the negative votes from people who later changed their votes?

These are my ratings. I have already made a proposal how we can do this with voting. Take a picture on 621 and each comment gets a word pair (example: phalalady, vagentelman). There everyone can vote and if one changes his mind, that is also possible if I am not mistaken. The link to it simply comes in a new treat, where also all the word suggestions are to be seen and which have been sorted out by the admins.

Clawdragons said:
Andromorph / Gynomorph are latin-based, and thus don't need to be translated.

Gyno means "female" - as can be seen in words like gynecology, and gynecomastia. Andro means "male". Both terms can be seen in a term like "Androgyny."

"Morph" means "form". Which I think makes sense as being related in this context.

You should be clear that you want to replace cuntboy and dickgirl with the Latin meaning of male and female. Even if I can start with the words, most people do not know that.

Clawdragons said:
Anyway, I don't think we can expect to hold out for 100% approval here, so, if possible, can we get an admin to weigh in here? It seems like we've had more of a consensus recently than at any other point... What exactly is the criteria for when we can consider actually trying some possibility out?

Good luck. I wrote here 4 weeks ago (page 25) that they should publish rules. An admin has answered exactly after me. Have you seen any rules? That was when we met the first time. It should also be said by the admins which words are not taken. The discussion about these words has then become superfluous.

I think we should not make the whole thing unnecessarily complicated. We will not be able to create new gender identifiers for intersexuals that will be adopted worldwide. The irony is that the porn genre is the only one that has clear distinctions, because Cuntboy, shemale and the other versions, for it do not even have states specific names, or only numbers.

PlüschTiger, I do apologize, but I can't quite tell what you're saying.

Clawdragons said:
PlüschTiger, I do apologize, but I can't quite tell what you're saying.

Seems to be suggesting that the lack of published rules is indictive of an absence of admission monitoring this thread.

Furrin_Gok said:
Seems to be suggesting that the lack of published rules is indictive of an absence of admission monitoring this thread.

Huh. I'd think that the fact that admins come in every page or so to focus people back on topic would be an indicator that they are monitoring the thread.

Clawdragons said:
Huh. I'd think that the fact that admins come in every page or so to focus people back on topic would be an indicator that they are monitoring the thread.

Right, but this does not help us with the actual problem. The open questions, directly to the admins asked, or please, has been ignored for 4 weeks, others before it perhaps already longer? The user leave the topic, suggests that some do not take the topic seriously. I have the feeling that the few users, who want to seriously contribute to a solution, are ignored.

I think it should be done a new forum entry, so that users are not led to come up on topics that are already resolved. In addition, even if an admin publishes rules, it finds in the many answers hardly one.

If we are voting, I vote for andromorph/gynomorph.

fourroll said:
I vote for no change on the grounds that the current complexity is already confusing enough. As a layman I have absolutely no idea what these andro- and gyno- words mean. I feel like these would become extra tags that will cover a broad range of things instead of creating order among the more specific classifications.

Cuntboy is literally a man with a cunt. No boobs, not a flat chested woman, only what it says on the tin. Sometimes it can't apply because it's not expressed clearly enough in the image and sometimes it's extremely descriptive. Probably the worst thing about it is the confusion it brings to the male/female and male/male tags. Gay aliases to male/male but is it really gay if the other "man" has a (for all intents and purposes, natural) vagina? These are crazy questions.

The problem with the label itself is that "cunt" is an insult and I'm almost sure I've heard "cunt boy" spoken as an insult in a movie once. Sadly I can't think of a replacement that isn't a longer x_y_z.

again, admins already said that the change will be made. we have moved way past from "should the change be made" to "what we will change to" numerous pages ago. do we really need to go through this in every single page?

As long as I can type in the old ones and it aliases to whatever "feel good" buzz word is chosen :O

fourroll said:
I vote for no change on the grounds that the current complexity is already confusing enough. As a layman I have absolutely no idea what these andro- and gyno- words mean. I feel like these would become extra tags that will cover a broad range of things instead of creating order among the more specific classifications.

Cuntboy is literally a man with a cunt. No boobs, not a flat chested woman, only what it says on the tin. Sometimes it can't apply because it's not expressed clearly enough in the image and sometimes it's extremely descriptive. Probably the worst thing about it is the confusion it brings to the male/female and male/male tags. Gay aliases to male/male but is it really gay if the other "man" has a (for all intents and purposes, natural) vagina? These are crazy questions.

The problem with the label itself is that "cunt" is an insult and I'm almost sure I've heard "cunt boy" spoken as an insult in a movie once. Sadly I can't think of a replacement that isn't a longer x_y_z.

CamKitty said:
As long as I can type in the old ones and it aliases to whatever "feel good" buzz word is chosen :O

An alias would mean you could type in the old ones, yes.

I'm putting my support behind vaginaman/penislady and variations thereov (vagentleman/phallady) as they're unambiguous.

-∞ to andromorph/gynomorph, it's too vague and too broad

-1 to *_intersex, anything with female/male or masculine/feminine.

+1 to andomorph/gynomorph. Even though they're initially unfamiliar, they seem like the most elegant solution proposed. Aliasing and the wiki page should clear up 90% of the confusion about them.

fourroll said:
But what exactly would they mean?
Without checking I know we at least have cuntboy, dickgirl, futa/futanari, and a few others. That's more than two. Each of these tags refer to a specific thing. Two words for all this complexity is just going to have us go around in a circle and spark the same debate again.

Cuntboy = andromorph
Dickgirl = gynomorph
Futanari = herm, not part of this matter

I think the morph tags are the worst ones yet. The problems that were gone over a hundred times halfway through the thread never got solved even a little bit. What's the morph that determines whether it's andro or gyno? GL said the body type as opposed to the genitals at one point, but what about the body makes it qualify? What about all 21K-some girly male posts? Lithe, effete bodies that have penises on them are....apparently gynomorphs now? Because a penis but a "female" body is that? They'd just be flat_chested gynomorphs. What about a masculine body with a penis? why would someone not assume that fell under the same tag? It's clearly "male-form." No, way too confusing and contrived. I hate the idea of being that ridiculous to try and solve a problem that could be solved better.

The only part I see agreement on, and I share the agreement, is that cuntboy and dickgirl are good to ditch in favor of something better. But why did the work stop on the potentially workable specific intersex tags? The whole point here is that gender is a misnomer for sex in the tag system, and we accept that genitals and general body type are the things people care about when they're browsing porn. So those sound like the perfect solution if they're set up properly. They're clean and discoverable, and on top of that, you can wildcard them easily to get them all at once. Trying to invent words that mean exactly what words we already have do but aren't the same words is like saying teetsy instead of toilet. You still shit in it even if you say you need to go dooble... By which I mean - if we're going to the trouble of changing terms to begin with, it might as well be for the benefit of making them really useful, not just to make people feel good. Better to focus exclusively on utility, and you'll just naturally end up not being unduly offensive.

notnobody said:
I think the morph tags are the worst ones yet. The problems that were gone over a hundred times halfway through the thread never got solved even a little bit. What's the morph that determines whether it's andro or gyno? GL said the body type as opposed to the genitals at one point, but what about the body makes it qualify? What about all 21K-some girly male posts? Lithe, effete bodies that have penises on them are....apparently gynomorphs now? Because a penis but a "female" body is that? They'd just be flat_chested gynomorphs. What about a masculine body with a penis? why would someone not assume that fell under the same tag? It's clearly "male-form." No, way too confusing and contrived. I hate the idea of being that ridiculous to try and solve a problem that could be solved better.

The only part I see agreement on, and I share the agreement, is that cuntboy and dickgirl are good to ditch in favor of something better. But why did the work stop on the potentially workable specific intersex tags? The whole point here is that gender is a misnomer for sex in the tag system, and we accept that genitals and general body type are the things people care about when they're browsing porn. So those sound like the perfect solution if they're set up properly. They're clean and discoverable, and on top of that, you can wildcard them easily to get them all at once. Trying to invent words that mean exactly what words we already have do but aren't the same words is like saying teetsy instead of toilet. You still shit in it even if you say you need to go dooble... By which I mean - if we're going to the trouble of changing terms to begin with, it might as well be for the benefit of making them really useful, not just to make people feel good. Better to focus exclusively on utility, and you'll just naturally end up not being unduly offensive.

Morphs are purely for our existing tags, just renamed. They don't cover girly men or manly women.

Furrin_Gok said:
Morphs are purely for our existing tags, just renamed. They don't cover girly men or manly women.

But they do, is my point. They're intended to replace cuntboy and dickgirl, and they would, but it's like using napalm to take care of your mouse problem at home. They naturally encompass a bunch of things they're not meant to, which makes them both less useful for the task they're meant to do and a problem for people understanding other things.

notnobody said:
But they do, is my point. They're intended to replace cuntboy and dickgirl, and they would, but it's like using napalm to take care of your mouse problem at home. They naturally encompass a bunch of things they're not meant to, which makes them both less useful for the task they're meant to do and a problem for people understanding other things.

Not really, the words andromorph and gynomorph may appear general enough to apply to femboys and mascgirls, but that's not how they will be used. This discussion is solely about finding suitable replacements for the cboy and dgirl tags, so the new tags will have the same definitions and will be used for the exact same purpose as the current tags. If the new tags didn't behave exactly the same as the tags they are supposed to replace, then they wouldn't be very good replacements.

JAKXXX3 said:
If the new tags didn't behave exactly the same as the tags they are supposed to replace, then they wouldn't be very good replacements.

That's what makes those not good replacements. If you want something to behave a certain way, design it to do so. Don't just declare that it will. If you were tired of drinking out of a hollowed out squirrel skull and wanted a replacement, I'd hand you a glass, not hand you a gas canister while saying "Don't worry, it'll behave like a drinking glass. That's what I'm giving it to you for. From now on, people will naturally understand that things like this are for drinking." There's no reason to accept a solution that's only exchanging one demon for another just because everybody's fatigued by a discussion that's dragged on way too long.

Edit: And just to reiterate, it's not even just a matter of scope. They can be confusing even at small scale. Andromorph could just as easily mean female body but andromorphic genitals as it could andromorphic body but female genitals. They're useless fiat words that offend just the same size swath of the population for completely different reasons, but with the added trouble of also being confusing.

Notnobody has a point. andromorph means "An organism with male physical characteristics". You know what generally has male physical characteristics? Males. Using a term that doesn't specifically mean the thing you plan to use it for will lead to people repeatedly contesting it, especially if they interpret a word that means "anything with male characteristics" as "anything with male characteristics" instead of "anything with male characteristics that isn't male".

notnobody said:
That's what makes those not good replacements. If you want something to behave a certain way, design it to do so. Don't just declare that it will. If you were tired of drinking out of a hollowed out squirrel skull and wanted a replacement, I'd hand you a glass, not hand you a gas canister while saying "Don't worry, it'll behave like a drinking glass. That's what I'm giving it to you for. From now on, people will naturally understand that things like this are for drinking." There's no reason to accept a solution that's only exchanging one demon for another just because everybody's fatigued by a discussion that's dragged on way too long.

The problem with that is that these terms don't really exist anywhere else, unless they're used in esoteric discussion such as science. The words Andromorph and Gynomorph in this thread were basically created for the purpose of being replacements, thus we can give them any definition we want. Well, anything that vaguely keeps in line with the greek(?) definition of the words the terms were derived from, namely, male-like and female-like.

BlueDingo said:
Notnobody has a point. andromorph means "An organism with male physical characteristics". You know what generally has male physical characteristics? Males. Using a term that doesn't specifically mean the thing you plan to use it for will lead to people repeatedly contesting it, especially if they interpret a word that means "anything with male characteristics" as "anything with male characteristics" instead of "anything with male characteristics that isn't male".

Yeah, but as I said above, in adopting these terms we can mold their definitions to suit their purpose. Andromorph may apply to any being vaguely resembling a male in common discussion, but in order to aid our tagging system, it would be given a new esoteric meaning as a replacement for 'cuntboy'. As such, in the context of e621, andromorph will become completely synonymous with cuntboy, if it succeeds in being chosen as the new tag. The same would of course apply for gynomorph and dickgirl.

JAKXXX3 said:
The words Andromorph and Gynomorph in this thread were basically created for the purpose of being replacements, thus we can give them any definition we want.

Those are actually used in entomology and general biology all the time.
Gynomorphic is female appearance, male genitalia.
Andromorphic is male appearance, female genitalia.

Which is identical to our usage of dickgirl/cuntboy.
Though no, you won't get many google hits for those, because medical and biology forums tend to be of limited access.

Genjar said:
Those are actually used in entomology and general biology all the time.
Gynomorphic is female appearance, male genitalia.
Andromorphic is male appearance, female genitalia.

Though no, you won't get many google hits for those, because medical and biological forums tend to be of limited access.

Oh really? So they're actually synonymous with the earlier mabod/fembod suggestions we had earlier? That's convenient.

If so, I guess I'll change my earlier vote to +1 for andromorph/gynomorph.

If anything, that flies directly in the face of the apparent attempt at compassion with the terminology change. You look at a character who's male and has a vagina and say "you're a female with male characteristics." And they say "stop defining me by my genitals!" And you say "hey, at least I didn't call it a cunt."

This does not solve the problem. It inserts terms no casual user would ever think of, solves nothing, and makes everything weird.

notnobody said:
If anything, that flies directly in the face of the apparent attempt at compassion with the terminology change. You look at a character who's male and has a vagina and say "you're a female with male characteristics." And they say "stop defining me by my genitals!" And you say "hey, at least I didn't call it a cunt."

This does not solve the problem. It inserts terms no casual user would ever think of, solves nothing, and makes everything weird.

um for the most part "defining me by my genitals" is not the reason for this change but the fact that the presently use terms are proven to be slurs, have always been slurs, primarily seen as slurs to the world and were made to be slurs.

Other slurs and slang on this site have in the past been removed and replaced with more formal terms, it past time that one of the last remaining(these 2) are done away with as well when there are working alternatives

PS: Also Genjar, thank you.

notnobody said:
The only part I see agreement on, and I share the agreement, is that cuntboy and dickgirl are good to ditch in favor of something better.

That's not true, though. Plenty of people don't agree. They keep coming in here every now and again to tell you this; but they get told their opinion is irrelevant as "it's already been decided". They shrug, and go away again, resulting in a group of people closely following this forum topic which isn't representative of the community.

Let me make two predictions (as someone who actually did Latin):

• "Andromorph" will be hopelessly confused with "androgynous".
• The only way people will guess what "gynomorph" means is if they link it to "gynecologist"; and then, they'll most likely guess it means the wrong thing, since they're intimately involved with female genitalia.

If you think andromorph (or any other such term) is worth having, just make cuntboy imply it, rather than replace it - it's a superset, after all - and then whip up an "ignored tags" system to hide whatever the user wants in lists. That might actually be useful, because there are other things (e.g. bearded_lady) which those interested in andromorphism are likely to appreciate.

From a programming perspective, it's trivial to remove entries in one list from another list. And from a social standpoint, it improves the experience of one group of people without letting their opinions impact the experience of others.

Edit: Should've quoted - this was in response to Ruku.

If you think that's true, go back and look at how quickly penisgirl/vaginaboy and various other flavors went south when they were suggested.

And if you still don't believe it, go ask some actual trans people how they feel about it, or if you don't know any, then just find some videos of trans people doing interviews and look at their faces when the interviewer inevitably asks them what's in their pants.

I'm advocating for either just punting on the issue until we have a real solid solution, or focusing back more on the solutions that act more as descriptions and less as labels.

Intersex_penisballswhatever acts more as a property marker, where androgynomorph acts more as a finger pointed at a noun. Forget about the hollow claims that it's all about whether people consider the words dick and cunt generally offensive and think about what's really bothersome to someone who cares about this from that perspective.

GreenReaper said:
That's not true, though. Plenty of people don't agree. They keep coming in here every now and again to tell you this; but they get told their opinion is irrelevant

Oh no, believe me, I know this struggle. But nobody's been here to tell me anything. I didn't start posting in this thread until a few hours ago. I do think people are, not just in this thread by in culture lately in general, trying to do the equivalent of turning everyone into a criminal by making everything illegal. If you want to make everyone in the world a bigot, just make a constantly wildly moving target that, if you don't hit it, defines you as a hateful person. But all I meant before was, I saw a glimmer of a suggestion that could legitimately add some good precision to searches for some set of in-between parts that male/maleherm/herm/female don't cover. I don't agree with the notion that the terms people have been fapping to for years are abusive or hateful, but I'm all for a good formulaic approach to finding fap fodder more quickly.

notnobody said:
Edit: Should've quoted - this was in response to Ruku.

If you think that's true, go back and look at how quickly penisgirl/vaginaboy and various other flavors went south when they were suggested.

Those most likly because they denote a sence of inferiority, boy and girl as if they are all children, children usually arnt allowed to decide for themselves, they have to listen to there parent. Most suggestions made so far ether fail at avoiding ridiculously long tags like the */* sex pairing tag group or prone to mistags resulting from missing underscores which is why tags contain male or female dont work sence the mistaged posts here in particular would be especially hard to find other tags like vegentlemen didnt actually get any opposition but not much support ether personally not to iffy about that term but i can see why some people were rather meh to that...

And if you still don't believe it, go ask some actual trans people how they feel about it, or if you don't know any, then just find some videos of trans people doing interviews and look at their faces when the interviewer inevitably asks them what's in their pants.

You are aware that there are number of intersex/transgender people who have spoken out here in this thread thru out the 33 pages worth of thread and previous threads before this one that also included commentaries from transgendered people. Im aware nnb but what i was saying was that the primary reason for the thread and the primary reason why admins ruled that there should be a change is because the terms subject to change are slurs, not because of being defined by genitalia but being defined by slurs on this site.
Let me point out that some users who identify as trans including the op themselves have at one point or another thru out this thread given their support to tag suggestions like female_bodied_with_pussy or male_with pussy.

I'm advocating for either just punting on the issue until we have a real solid solution, or focusing back more on the solutions that act more as descriptions and less as labels.

Intersex_penisballswhatever acts more as a property marker, where androgynomorph acts more as a finger pointed at a noun. Forget about the hollow claims that it's all about whether people consider the words dick and cunt generally offensive and think about what's really bothersome to someone who cares about this from that perspective.

that they are offinicive is established fact that you can look up in any dictionary and ask any person on the street, not some empty excuse from a minority. Might i point out that just about all tags that had dick or cunt in it in the early days of e621 including cunt and dick it self have all been removed and replaced with formal terms at this point. These 2 tags subject to change are pretty much the last tags left with these outdated components.

As to you Greenreaper we know there was disagreement to changing the tags in anyway, no ones denying or ignoring that, but why did people disagree would be the problem, i pretty much read all pages to this thread and the grater majority of disagreement was on:
a system that works but will be harmed in functionality if the terms are changed; staff should not bend to the demands of SJW, slippery rope(today its cuntboy, next day it may be penis that people suddenly see as a slur), why change a working system.
Just about half the pages worth to this thread are really about nothing but these same excuses rehashed over and over again in slightly different forms. Non of them have truth to them, merrit or even apply to what actually being effected in this change so of cource the will not be given much attention to.
The only true thing that would be representative would be a site wide announcement that can be replied to or site wide vote. A forum and its threads will never be representative of the community.

The admins didn't rule anything. They said they were open to a change if there was a good one to be had. Anyway, I can't accept the assertion that dick and cunt are slurs. If you say "My cock is itchy; How about your cunt? Anglo Saxon words are fun," and your cunt-owning friend says "Yup, my pussy is also itchy just like your dick. Norse and English words are also great," then you haven't slurred each other. And you haven't slurred a strongman competitor if you say they'd pull more in sumo deadlift than in standard because they're a glute-man unlike the quad-man to their left. People like nice simple terms, and shoving the relevant bits together into portmanteaus produces them. If the gripe here were girl/boy for age implications, then everyone would've immediately been happy with a suggestion of changing it to dickwoman and cuntman. Or pussyman and cockwoman. But they're not. When these things come up, they're an emotional response to any implication that a person's self image isn't valid - in this case, that if you're a woman but have a dick for instance, that you're some how different from a woman.

But don't discount people for having an emotional response to being told they're awful and abusive at their core either. Remember, nobody was living under a rock before these threads got started. The most vitriolic people contributing the least to the conversation could just be so fed up and fatigued from being slammed everywhere as a bigot or a transphobe that they feel like the only thing they have it in them to do anymore is vent some steam. Fact is, you really can't please everybody, so no matter how genuinely you want to be compassionate, in this atmosphere, you'll always run into another person your last effort wasn't good enough for, and they'll hate you just as hard and call you just as much of a bigot as the last group.

So to my ongoing point - if we're after a change, it should be for clarity's and usability's sake, not for feelings... Because those are insufficiently standard and predictable to solve any problems.

notnobody said:
The admins didn't rule anything. They said they were open to a change if there was a good one to be had. Anyway, I can't accept the assertion that dick and cunt are slurs. If you say "My cock is itchy; How about your cunt? Anglo Saxon words are fun," and your cunt-owning friend says "Yup, my pussy is also itchy just like your dick. Norse and English words are also great," then you haven't slurred each other. And you haven't slurred a strongman competitor if you say they'd pull more in sumo deadlift than in standard because they're a glute-man unlike the quad-man to their left. People like nice simple terms, and shoving the relevant bits together into portmanteaus produces them. If the gripe here were girl/boy for age implications, then everyone would've immediately been happy with a suggestion of changing it to dickwoman and cuntman. Or pussyman and cockwoman. But they're not. When these things come up, they're an emotional response to any implication that a person's self image isn't valid - in this case, that if you're a woman but have a dick for instance, that you're some how different from a woman.

But don't discount people for having an emotional response to being told they're awful and abusive at their core either. Remember, nobody was living under a rock before these threads got started. The most vitriolic people contributing the least to the conversation could just be so fed up and fatigued from being slammed everywhere as a bigot or a transphobe that they feel like the only thing they have it in them to do anymore is vent some steam. Fact is, you really can't please everybody, so no matter how genuinely you want to be compassionate, in this atmosphere, you'll always run into another person your last effort wasn't good enough for, and they'll hate you just as hard and call you just as much of a bigot as the last group.

So to my ongoing point - if we're after a change, it should be for clarity's and usability's sake, not for feelings... Because those are insufficiently standard and predictable to solve any problems.

Please actually read responses to your comments in full notnobody.
The Admins did in fact rule that there shall be a change when a well supported workable alternative is found, ratte has to keep coming into this thread to remind you all that there was already a ruling on the change and it is no longer up to dabate. And nnb please dont over simplify and generalize a issue that has long been one of the bigest on e621, there is obviously more to this then just age implication nnb but it is one of many problems with existing terms like dickgirl and cuntboy especially on a tagging system(twys) that is supposed to be objective and strictly visually descriptive(not all intersex look like children or act like children).
And your monologue on using cunt and dick honestly seems like grasping at straws and in some parts does not make sence at all. i never said cunt or dick was a slur but they are vulgar, cunt in particular is regarded to the same level as terms such as nigger, and could well get you in trouble.Go ahead refer to everyone irl from now on as dicks and cunts, see where that gets you.

And Nnb do not bring politics into this,

no one here is being called a bigot, this is about facts, if they are discounted then its because their reasoning is not based in facts.
And true you cant please everyone but doing nothing is worse to everyone. This is also not there to please anyone, it is there to remove 2 terms that were nothing but slurs when working alternatives exist.

A term that is usable and serious at not carrying any disparaging propose is what the continued discussion is about.feelings play no major role in this, what is documented fact and acceptability in public sphere is.

Ruku said:
...fact that the presently use terms are proven to be slurs, have always been slurs, primarily seen as slurs to the world and were made to be slurs...

Ruku said:
... i never said cunt or dick was a slur but they are vulgar...

Ruku said:
Those most likly because they denote a sence of inferiority, boy and girl as if they are all children, children usually arnt allowed to decide for themselves

Ruku said:
there is obviously more to this then just age implication

I think the one not reading the replies to my posts here is the one writing them. Don't tell me not to bring politics into this. It's the underpinning of the entire debate. I'm the only one trying to get the actual effort to focus away from it. And you misread Ratte's posts. They were trying to tell people to stop wasting effort bickering on whether to make a change and start focusing on trying to come up with something worthy of changing to. That doesn't mean it'll happen even in the absence of a good solution. I'm trying to advocate for a good solution.

notnobody said:
And you misread Ratte's posts. They were trying to tell people to stop wasting effort bickering on whether to make a change and start focusing on trying to come up with something worthy of changing to. That doesn't mean it'll happen even in the absence of a good solution. I'm trying to advocate for a good solution.

Look again. The ruling was made, and nobody claimed Ratte was the one to make it, just that she kept coming in to remind people.

Furrin_Gok said:
Look again. The ruling was made, and nobody claimed Ratte was the one to make it, just that she kept coming in to remind people.

I read that the same way - not a ruling but a forehead slap at meaningless resistance to change. And just a reminder, at that. You could swap in any tags and proposed changes and have that post be unchanged; We've had the same annoyance on a bunch of proposals. We still need a good destination to make it worthwhile. Anyway, I feel like I've blown my wad on the topic at least until some more concerned voices chime back in.

Shhh my sweet children, it has already been decided by an admin that the tags will change from cuntboy/dickgirl. Majority concluded that cunt-/dick- is offensive(especially of those whose characters are tagged as such). It isn't a sjw either, it is merely a naming issue of should have picked a better name to start with in the first place.
No sense of fighting about it, you can still tag it how you want even after it is changed (it'll automatically change for you), and if you have it blacklisted why with about it at all?
The discussion of the now is what to change it to and why.
I still place my vote for gynomorph/andromorph because it's easy to remember, makes sense(Latin words), and doesn't offend.