Marflebark said:
Being offended by a fanciful term on a furry porn website.

Looks like E621 is starting to head in the way of F-list, and Secondlife, on the bullet train to SJW-ville.

In fairness, we have de-vulgarized plenty of tags in the past already. Aliasing still allows those tags to be searchable, so for those who actually do use those tags for searching and tagging their actions will not be impacted by a change.

Ko-san said:
Heh, this is still going on...

HypnoBitch said:
Lol the person is started this must be so triggered~.

Marflebark said:
Being offended by a fanciful term on a furry porn website.

Looks like E621 is starting to head in the way of F-list, and Secondlife, on the bullet train to SJW-ville.

Reminding everybody that it's more than just 'feelings' that are at stake here.

I'd personally like for users to stop getting baited into fruitless dramas and receiving unnecessary records.

- we now have a documented case of e621 failing to serve its purpose as an art archive because of this issue...this was somebody who would have had no problem with the site otherwise, had it not been for our terminology.

Granted, it's content that won't exactly be missed. But it's content nonetheless.

So can we please stop generalizing this to some mindless SJW movement? I was very clear with my previous post: quit wasting our time with these condescending posts that show zero understanding of the matter.

Here's tag potentials that stay short and clean:

mf_intersex -> Male body, female genitals
fm_intersex -> Female body, male genitals

Typos possible, but easily corrected. And fairly straightforward for describing which applies where.

Wodahseht said:
Here's tag potentials that stay short and clean:

mf_intersex -> Male body, female genitals
fm_intersex -> Female body, male genitals

Typos possible, but easily corrected. And fairly straightforward for describing which applies where.

You know, I've actually come to terms with these slur tags being removed... I don't know what I was doing (I think I was reading one of my FTM brother's Facebook posts), and it just... kind of fell together in my head. Sorry for all the drama!

As to what Wodahseht just said, I actually think that could work. I like that idea.

Wodahseht said:
Here's tag potentials that stay short and clean:

mf_intersex -> Male body, female genitals
fm_intersex -> Female body, male genitals

Typos possible, but easily corrected. And fairly straightforward for describing which applies where.

I'm going to be blunt: this sounds too easy. All of the answers are right there, and everything I can think up of that would counter it seems to be answered... it sounds like something an adult with highschool grade intelligence could pick up with minor experience, but it feels way too easy to be flawless.

If this can be taken off of the paper and applied in a trial, then I am for it. But for now, I think there is a flaw that we can't see. But I am not against it either, rather I am neutral on it until everything is given.

Wodahseht said:
Here's tag potentials that stay short and clean:

mf_intersex -> Male body, female genitals
fm_intersex -> Female body, male genitals

Typos possible, but easily corrected. And fairly straightforward for describing which applies where.

There's no such thing as a "male body" or a "female body", especially in furry art where many artists don't understand and/or don't care about non-genital differences between genders

FibS said:
There's no such thing as a "male body" or a "female body", especially in furry art where many artists don't understand and/or don't care about non-genital differences between genders

We tag with bodies in mind, and genitals are the primary way. If neither are present, then ambiguous_gender, but if anything can be applied from the gender chart ( link ), it will get a gender tag.

And if an artist doesn't know about genders, then prove it. I know that artists need to learn such to draw anthro characters, ferals are another statement, because anthro characters are initially based off of human anatomy. And it would be a real odd case for anyone to not recognize the difference visually between a male human and a female human...

FibS said:
There's no such thing as a "male body" or a "female body", especially in furry art where many artists don't understand and/or don't care about non-genital differences between genders

We go by human standards, not furry standards. If it would be the body of a male in America, that's what counts.

Siral_Exan said:
But for now, I think there is a flaw that we can't see.

Biggest flaw I know of is that mf is aliased to male/female. And given that it's not uncommon for people to put a space instead of underscore when tagging things, it could cause some tagging goofs that way.

Wodahseht said:
Biggest flaw I know of is that mf is aliased to male/female. And given that it's not uncommon for people to put a space instead of underscore when tagging things, it could cause some tagging goofs that way.

But that is very easily fixable. It ain't rocket science to tell when there are too many gender tags.

FibS said:
There's no such thing as a "male body" or a "female body", especially in furry art where many artists don't understand and/or don't care about non-genital differences between genders

Here is why I believe that is wrong:

Male Body Types
Female Body Types
Male Genitalia
Female Genitalia

While not physically possible in science to naturally possess both a functioning penis and vagina, here in the furry fandom, anything is possible. Typically, furry artists (who aren't completely new to body structures like I am) respect the fact that different sets of genitals may represent different genders. However, there still are artists out there that don't, and that's unfortunate.

As such, we (as in the e621 community as a whole) can not allow tagging of trans-characters with outside information. This breaks the concept of "Tag-what-you-see". However, I would like if we could tag transgendered characters if the character explicitly expresses that they are transgender. It sounds like I'm trying to metaphorically piss-through-a-cherrio with how specific that'd be, but that's just my two cents.

If we can tag incest based on dialogue that isnt much of a stretch

Knotty_Curls said:
Reminding everybody that it's more than just 'feelings' that are at stake here.

Granted, it's content that won't exactly be missed. But it's content nonetheless.

So can we please stop generalizing this to some mindless SJW movement? I was very clear with my previous post: quit wasting our time with these condescending posts that show zero understanding of the matter.

It's not that I don't get what the point of this is, not that I really care, but that you guys still haven't come to a conclusion.

Siral_Exan said:
[...]

And if an artist doesn't know about genders, then prove it.

I don't need to prove an ambivalent and self-evident concept. If you haven't noticed it you're simply denying it and I will not be able to convince you.

FibS said:
I don't need to prove an ambivalent and self-evident concept. If you haven't noticed it you're simply denying it and I will not be able to convince you.

Prove it, or just leave. Either contribute or please stop arguing with us. We are are trying to solve a problem, you are not.

If you can't give a fact, don't argue on an opinion.

FibS said:
I don't need to prove an ambivalent and self-evident concept. If you haven't noticed it you're simply denying it and I will not be able to convince you.

If people are asking for evidence, then it's generally not self-evident. And regardless of whether artists do or don't know genders, we tag based on what is widely regarded as "male features" versus "female features" which makes it a moot point in trying to determine replacement tags for ones already in use.

If possible I'd like to get feedback going on whether people can dig up any significant problems with the tags I suggested. With how quiet thread has been this last week I've been hoping it's simply that people can't find reasons to dismiss them, but it could also be that only a small number of people still follow this thread.

If no one can come up with any big issues I'd like to see about creating a fresh thread for them to try and get more people involved in analyzing them. It'd be nice to finally settle this particular issue considering how long it's been going on.

Wodahseht said:
If possible I'd like to get feedback going on whether people can dig up any significant problems with the tags I suggested. With how quiet thread has been this last week I've been hoping it's simply that people can't find reasons to dismiss them, but it could also be that only a small number of people still follow this thread.

If no one can come up with any big issues I'd like to see about creating a fresh thread for them to try and get more people involved in analyzing them. It'd be nice to finally settle this particular issue considering how long it's been going on.

So does anybody, besides FibS, have any problem with mf_intersex or fm_intersex? I only really see two issues with them.

The first issue is that I believe it would be unlikely that many newcomers/uninformed users would understand the tags on their own. The current tags, while crude, could be easily understood with little thought. While these new tags may require frequent checks to the wiki before a user can naturally distinguish between mf_intersex and fm_intersex. However, this issue would be mostly solved by the aliasing of the current tags, so we shouldn't have to worry too much about new users getting confused between the two.

The second issue is about the tag intersex on its own. Would mf_intersex and fm_intersex also be subordinate to intersex, as the current tags are? If so, I feel as though herm would stick out, being the only tag directly under intersex without including intersex. That last point is just my personal desire for consistency, though I suppose since herm is near-perfect for what it defines it would be a terrible waste of time and effort to change it without a very good reason.

Besides that, I don't really see any reason not to adopt mf_intersex and fm_intersex as replacements for cboy and dgirl.

JAKXXX3 said:

snip...

So does anybody, besides FibS, have any problem with mf_intersex or fm_intersex? I only really see two issues with them.

The first issue is that I believe it would be unlikely that many newcomers/uninformed users would understand the tags on their own. The current tags, while crude, could be easily understood with little thought. While these new tags may require frequent checks to the wiki before a user can naturally distinguish between mf_intersex and fm_intersex. However, this issue would be mostly solved by the aliasing of the current tags, so we shouldn't have to worry too much about new users getting confused between the two.

The second issue is about the tag intersex on its own. Would mf_intersex and fm_intersex also be subordinate to intersex, as the current tags are? If so, I feel as though herm would stick out, being the only tag directly under intersex without including intersex. That last point is just my personal desire for consistency, though I suppose since herm is near-perfect for what it defines it would be a terrible waste of time and effort to change it without a very good reason.

Besides that, I don't really see any reason not to adopt mf_intersex and fm_intersex as replacements for cboy and dgirl.

First point, IMO, is it's inevitable. New taggers do not get their grasps on our intersex tags to begin with, but this would make it a bit more obscure. Still wish that we could work on making new taggers a "package" full of things to know...

Second point is that there is already talk about making the Herm tags their own and not under intersex, or so I noticed.

My problem with MF and FM intersex: Which one's which? That would be a pretty consistent problem. How will people tell them apart, especially as we get new people coming and going all the time?

Furrin_Gok said:
My problem with MF and FM intersex: Which one's which? That would be a pretty consistent problem. How will people tell them apart, especially as we get new people coming and going all the time?

I don't think it'd be that hard to remember body-type then genitals. My idea was for body first to de-emphasize the genitals since that seems a touchy point.

Would making it mbfg and fbmg make it more clear? In that case could alias:

mgfb_intersex -> fbmg_intersex
fgmb_intersex -> mbfg_intersex

Then you wouldn't have to remember order, just that male bodytype (mb) and female genitals (fg) need to be in the tag - or vice versa.

Problem is that the more detailed the acronym, the more people are going to be confused up front.

Edit:

Or we could leave out the genital bit completely and do:

mb_intersex
fb_intersex

If herm is taken out of intersex envelope just classifying by bodytype_intersex might be clear enough.

Im actually really fine with mf_intersex and etc, its essentially an mtf_tag

Which is basically in line with what I suggested at the beginning of the thread.
So yeah +10 from me for that.

Mbfg tags sound better yes. I see no problems there.

Furrin_Gok said:
Mbfg tags sound better yes. I see no problems there.

gonna echo this. Although 'body first, genitals second' is an easy enough adage to remember, the new one is a bit more intuitive for getting to grips with.

Is there any way to give them a phonetic nickname? If you contract the full titles of the proposed tags you can get this:

mgfb_intersex could be 'magen fembod'/'fembod magen' or just 'fembod'
fgmb_intersex could be 'fegen mabod'/'mabod fegen' or just 'mabod'

I'm not suggesting that these nicknames should be replace the new replacement tags. I just have an aversion to clunky acronyms and prefer terminology that flows well.

Knotty_Curls said:
Reminding everybody that it's more than just 'feelings' that are at stake here.

enlighten us on how "i'm offended change it it's CURRENTYEAR" is not an emotional argument and then i might agree

bot2 said:
enlighten us on how "i'm offended change it it's CURRENTYEAR" is not an emotional argument and then i might agree

Nobody said that's a valid argument, either. As far as I'm aware, only the people who have been arguing against the change have stated that, making it a lie.

Our argument for the change is that many artists have left the site on the grounds that they dislike these tags. It's a simple enough fix that people could still use the old tags and get what they want thanks to the automated updates (Which is what aliases do), while also making a lot of artists happy and return.
If a fix is simple and harmless to us, then why not?

bot2 said:
enlighten us on how "i'm offended change it it's CURRENTYEAR" is not an emotional argument and then i might agree

Point out, even list them, who said it, so someone can point out otherwise. What you've said is no more valid of an argument than whom you quote, unless you provide evidence. And if this means "pointing out the obvious", know that I won't assume another's argument.

Furrin_Gok said:
Our argument for the change is that many artists have left the site on the grounds that they dislike these tags. It's a simple enough fix that people could still use the old tags and get what they want thanks to the automated updates (Which is what aliases do), while also making a lot of artists happy and return.
If a fix is simple and harmless to us, then why not?

The question arises, "How many of these artists have made proposals for a better name?". I see that the treat has been running here for 5 months, how many artists have been involved here? I can understand the argument and partly agree with it. The problem that this whole discussion has is will the artists be satisfied with the new name for Cuntboy and dickgirl? If not, the Months of discussion was useless.

I think that abbreviating things makes it too reliant on memory, would male_body_intersex be too long? Other than that, tagging based on body type seems like only objective approach and leaving genitals out of tag makes sense as intersex already defaults the genitals.

PlüschTiger said:
The question arises, "How many of these artists have made proposals for a better name?". I see that the treat has been running here for 5 months, how many artists have been involved here? I can understand the argument and partly agree with it. The problem that this whole discussion has is will the artists be satisfied with the new name for Cuntboy and dickgirl? If not, the Months of discussion was useless.

German - Deutsch

Stellt sich die Frage " Wie viele dieser Künstler haben Vorschläge für einen besseren Namen gemacht? ". Ich sehe das der treat seit 5 Monaten hier läuft, wie viele Künstler haben sich hier beteiligt? Das Problem, welches diese ganze Diskussion hat ist, werden die Künstler mit dem neuen Namen für Cuntboy und dickgirl zufrieden sein? Wenn nicht, war die Monatelange Diskussion nutzlos.

Well, at least what I have seen, most artists simply just file a takedown or try to vandalize tags as they do not know how the site works. And I have seen art on other sites where artists are being super aggressive for those tags being suggested for their works, meaning there's at least two posts I have not uploaded here simply because I do not want to anger the artist just because of this sites rules and tags in use here.
(altough in other case, artist still tagged their character with vagentleman and boypussy, but still..)

I do agree that it would be much more beneficial to conversation if those artists actually engaged into this conversation, but even if they do not, their actions still make it really clear that they do not want at least the current tags to exsist and connected to their art.

I think the reason why this conversation has dragged along so long is that there have been so many being too attached to the current porn'sh terms without knowing how the site functions or that the term gay is now male/male already.

Mario69 said:
I think that abbreviating things makes it too reliant on memory, would male_body_intersex be too long? Other than that, tagging based on body type seems like only objective approach and leaving genitals out of tag makes sense as intersex already defaults the genitals.

Unless herm is unlinked from intersex, tagging it simply on body type wouldn't be specific enough. Including genitals in tag somehow was to try and avoid people mistakingly adding it to herms.

And besides what Wodahseht said, the length is indeed also a problem. Just a cosmetic problem, though: it'd make the tag group appear clunky. male_body_intersex/female_body_intersex, smaller_male_body_intersex, female_body_intersex_penetrating, etc.

Which is why I'd personally prefer single words. Still like andro/gynomorph, but since those were voted out, vaguy' or 'vagentleman' wouldn't be too bad. Certainly an improvement over the current term. Heck, maybe it wouldn't even be necessary to change the tags that much. Something like vagboy would sound less offensive than cuntboy. ...well, it sounds less offensive to me, at least. Others might disagree.

Genjar said:
And besides what Wodahseht said, the length is indeed also a problem. Just a cosmetic problem, though: it'd make the tag group appear clunky. male_body_intersex/female_body_intersex, smaller_male_body_intersex, female_body_intersex_penetrating, etc.

Which is why I'd personally prefer single words. Still like andro/gynomorph, but since those were voted out, vaguy' or 'vagentleman' wouldn't be too bad. Certainly an improvement over the current term. Heck, maybe it wouldn't even be necessary to change the tags that much. Something like vagboy would sound less offensive than cuntboy. ...well, it sounds less offensive to me, at least. Others might disagree. [/quote] Vagboy and pengirl doesn't sound too bad, reminds me of the adventures of Sharkboy and Lavagirl though.

Is calling a character with breasts and a penis a dickgirl REALLY that hurtful?

FurryMcFuzzball said:
Is calling a character with breasts and a penis a dickgirl REALLY that hurtful?

Depends. What do you consider as "pain" or "hurt"? Is your definition different from another's? Furthermore, have you read through at least some of this massive thread to get the gist of why we want it changed?

Siral_Exan said:
Depends. What do you consider as "pain" or "hurt"? Is your definition different from another's? Furthermore, have you read through at least some of this massive thread to get the gist of why we want it changed?

The general argument is that since it is vulgar and it is tangentially used to describe attributes that a minority possess, it is a slur. However, as this is a site that largely has pornographic content and 99.9% of the posts these tags would describe would be explicit, vulgarity is not at all negative and is simply the optimum descriptor.

Most people come to this site with their pants down, search for porn they want to jerk to, and leave. While here I reply to a morality thread ...

A porn site needs to cater to its users. What is the fastest and easiest way to find porn? That is the golden question. Fuck everything else. FFS.

Are you loosing your daily traffic by using those terms? I bet not.

27 pages is a lot to wade through, so it's no wonder that some users skip reading the whole thread.

But once again, we're way past the 'why are they offensive' part of the discussion and have moved on to trying to find a better alternative. Please try to stay on topic. This matter would've been sorted out pages ago if it weren't for the constant derailments.

The discussion has moved past all that yeah. Please try to stick to body focused suggestions because the constant suggestins of awful things like penisgirl which literally is a half assed attempt to change nothing. I would rather keep the shitty tags we have than change it to something even worse.

Seriously please take this with a modicum of seriousness.

GDelscribe said:
The discussion has moved past all that yeah. Please try to stick to body focused suggestions because the constant suggestins of awful things like penisgirl which literally is a half assed attempt to change nothing. I would rather keep the shitty tags we have than change it to something even worse.

Seriously please take this with a modicum of seriousness.

I thought the whole point was to get rid of the vulgar language, I fail to see how penisgirl and vagboy could be any worse than the current tags.

I am taking this seriously, I was considering the suggestion made by another user. If anything, I was pointing out how the suggested tags sound a bit silly.

Oi vey, why is this still alive?

Why can't we use tags like 'male_intersex' and 'female_intersex' instead of trying to make things complicated with complicated sounding tags?

Male_intersex can be for cuntboys, while female_intersex can be for dickgirls. Plus you can just aliase it to base intersex tag, and it won't clash with any 'intersex/*insert other gender here*' tags, since intersex is in the tag itself. You don't have to change anything really.

I'm very much against the suggestion of 'masculine_intersex' and 'feminine_intersex' tags myself. Especially the latter.
What about the guys in the girly+cuntboy searches? They are feminine, and would probably be aliased with the tag because of that, they count as feminine intersexed characters, thus possibly starting another tagging war regarding whether the feminine variant of the tag should belong to girls only or some bullshit.

Guys can look feminine in appearance (Especially considering not all femboy characters are drawn with masculine-like bodies, many artists draw guys with some pretty girly hips and everything), and girls, while I wouldn't exactly say they'd be fully masculine, not all females are girly.

Both the Feminine and Masculine terms are a little too broad for tagging. Guys can be feminine ya know, Idk about girls being 'masculine' but I know some aren't girly girls.

Male_intersex and female_intersex are straight forward.
Cuntboys can be male_intersex, even the girly ones, and dickgirls are female_intersex. It doesn't clash with the 'intersex/X gender' tags, and it isn't too broad.
The only think separating them would be the character's chest. It got a manly chest yet got a vag? Male_intersex. They got breasts and a dick? Female_intersex.

There, that's it, less vulgar tags for those with mismatched anatomy, and your feels won't be hurt anymore. Honestly I find this a little ridiculous. I'm pretty sure tags weren't supposed to be offensive to trans people anyways. Cuntboys and Dickgirls aren't even transgender 99% of the time, most of the time they are MADE like that from the getgo with no explanation whatsoever.
They literally exist nothing more than to cover a fetish. The terms weren't even made to offend anyone, and you're LETTING them offend you when I'm pretty sure they weren't meant to be slurs in the first place. And imo, anyone who uses them in rl to other people are just stupid, because dickgirls don't exist in rl, cuntboys don't exist in rl, the idiots out there using those terms in RL should know this.

Jayfiregrowlithe said:
Oi vey, why is this still alive?

Why can't we use tags like 'male_intersex' and 'female_intersex' instead of trying to make things complicated with complicated sounding tags?

Male_intersex can be for cuntboys, while female_intersex can be for dickgirls. Plus you can just aliase it to base intersex tag, and it won't clash with any 'intersex/*insert other gender here*' tags, since intersex is in the tag itself. You don't have to change anything really.

I'm very much against the suggestion of 'masculine_intersex' and 'feminine_intersex' tags myself. Especially the latter.
What about the guys in the girly+cuntboy searches? They are feminine, and would probably be aliased with the tag because of that, they count as feminine intersexed characters, thus possibly starting another tagging war regarding whether the feminine variant of the tag should belong to girls only or some bullshit.

Guys can look feminine in appearance (Especially considering not all femboy characters are drawn with masculine-like bodies, many artists draw guys with some pretty girly hips and everything), and girls, while I wouldn't exactly say they'd be fully masculine, not all females are girly.

Both the Feminine and Masculine terms are a little too broad for tagging. Guys can be feminine ya know, Idk about girls being 'masculine' but I know some aren't girly girls.

Male_intersex and female_intersex are straight forward.
Cuntboys can be male_intersex, even the girly ones, and dickgirls are female_intersex. It doesn't clash with the 'intersex/X gender' tags, and it isn't too broad.
The only think separating them would be the character's chest. It got a manly chest yet got a vag? Male_intersex. They got breasts and a dick? Female_intersex.

There, that's it, less vulgar tags for those with mismatched anatomy, and your feels won't be hurt anymore. Honestly I find this a little ridiculous. I'm pretty sure tags weren't supposed to be offensive to trans people anyways. Cuntboys and Dickgirls aren't even transgender 99% of the time, most of the time they are MADE like that from the getgo with no explanation whatsoever.
They literally exist nothing more than to cover a fetish. The terms weren't even made to offend anyone, and you're LETTING them offend you when I'm pretty sure they weren't meant to be slurs in the first place. And imo, anyone who uses them in rl to other people are just stupid, because dickgirls don't exist in rl, cuntboys don't exist in rl, the idiots out there using those terms in RL should know this.

we have gone through this like fifty times: it doesnt work because intersex is blanket tag for herms, maleherms, dickgirls and cuntboys. male intersex would apply to maleherms and cuntboys, and female intersex would apply to feminine herms and dickgirls.

Thats a contrivance. Herms have been brought up multiple times to be de implicated from them as well.

Also, it really doesnt need to be an issue at all theres no extra confusion introduced than there already is.

I realize that there has not been a post on this thread for several days, I should have posted sooner but I actually didn't discover it until yesterday and have been mulling over a response. This is my first foray into this forum so I'm not sure how long threads usually remain quiet, so I hope I am not past the normal time for replying.

I have read through every page of this thread. That was quite a journey!

I am here as an artist who wishes that the tags for cboy and dgirl were changed, as I do not want them on or describing my art. I am also here as someone who enjoys other people's art, and who has seen other artists also get angry and upset at these tags (specifically cboy) being tagged on their art.

My argument for this is to define what a slur is and why it is something to be avoided. A slur is a word that is used (whether a person is aware of this usage or not) to deliberately insult and marginalize someone.

I do know that "cboy" has been used this way. Specifically, to insult and degrade people who do not fit stereotypical body expectations. This word and those like it are used to target a specific group of people and degrade them. This group of people also has to deal with actual, real life violence against them because of their bodies. People are literally injured and even killed because of this issue. This language is used as a tool against them, deliberately to hurt them and grind them down.

This is what a slur is and why it should be avoided.

I believe as a whole we should move away from words used intentionally to harm and marginalize others who experience prejudice, discrimination, and violence based on these things every day in the real world.

There were many suggestions and I really liked some of them! Andromorph/gynomorph in particular were my favorites. They feel much more neutral than the originals and, to me, more streamlined than other suggestions. I do understand there are downsides, though.

I wasn't really impressed with "vagentlemen" and "phallady". They seem really clunky, even compared to the multi-word suggestions. I think it's the way the words are combined, it just doesn't feel easy or intuitive to type out (though I recognize I'm biased towards the more medical sounding terms like andro/gynomorph since I'm used to them and they come really easy).

Several people brought up great points about the trans tags. I don't think they should be used without knowing the character's history and the artist's intentions (I don't know how this belief fits in TWYS, as it may not be allowed even if those things are known, but I am agreeing that it shouldn't be used as a replacement for the terms in question).

I came here specifically as an artist who has had these words applied to my work. I don't want to be associated with slurs and I don't want my art being labeled as such. However, this goes beyond artists and their work. This goes towards abandoning harmful language in exchange for descriptive terms that do not carry violent, insulting histories.

Apologies if some of these phrases do not read easily. It's almost 5AM and instead of sleeping I am here.

Just so you know, even if this change (which I still think is pointless) were to happen, people are still going to use the old terms to find your art (via aliases) and still refer to it by the old terms. There is nothing you can do to stop that.

BlueDingo said:
Just so you know, even if this change (which I still think is pointless) were to happen, people are still going to use the old terms to find your art (via aliases) and still refer to it by the old terms. There is nothing you can do to stop that.

I can't change what words people use to refer to my art, or change how the coders switch up tags. So those things don't really matter to me to be honest.

What I can do is get involved in the discussion to replace the tags that directly show up on my art, and to give other artists and creators the choice to not be directly associated with them.

wolftacos said:
I can't change what words people use to refer to my art, or change how the coders switch up tags. So those things don't really matter to me to be honest.

What I can do is get involved in the discussion to replace the tags that directly show up on my art, and to give other artists and creators the choice to not be directly associated with them.

You do realise that this change as you called it will affect every artist whose artwork is attributed with these terms whether they want it or not, right? What if the majority of those artists don't have a problem with the old terms, prefer the old terms over the new ones or even find the idea of not having the old ones displayed more offensive? Are you willing to put your needs and your feelings above theirs?

My argument for this is to define what a slur is and why it is something to be avoided. A slur is a word that is used (whether a person is aware of this usage or not) to deliberately insult and marginalize someone.

I do know that "cboy" has been used this way. Specifically, to insult and degrade people who do not fit stereotypical body expectations. This word and those like it are used to target a specific group of people and degrade them.

The word coward is used to marginalise those with little bravery. Weakling insults those who lack strength. Evil is used to marginalise those who are considered morally corrupt. Are these words or words like these slurs? No. They're words used to describe a particular thing yet they are all used to insult and degrade people, as per your definition of a slur. Furthermore, words that are not generally considered insults are used as slurs all the time. Cane toad is used to insult people who live in Queensland, Australia. Sauerkraut is used to insult people who live in Germany. Is anyone going to ban those words on the grounds that some people are offended by those terms or that people use them to offend? No, because the words have neutral definitions and most people who use those words have the neutral definition in mind. Dickgirl and cuntboy are no different. Sure, some people find them offensive and some use it to offend but both words have neutral definitions and when people use these words, they are more likely doing so because of what they mean and have no intent to offend. Assuming offensive intent when none is present says more about your state of mind than theirs.

Also, how can someone use a word to deliberately insult someone without at least partially knowing of its offensive usage?

This group of people also has to deal with actual, real life violence against them because of their bodies.

Name a group of people who haven't. Every group of people either is or has been hurt or killed because of who or what they are. Yes, even white people. Several times.

I believe as a whole we should move away from words used intentionally to harm and marginalize others who experience prejudice, discrimination, and violence based on these things every day in the real world.

Replacing any neutral term that is considered offensive by some with a synonym doesn't really change anything. What guarantee do you have that the new term won't be used in the same way as the old term? And what will you do if it is, call for it to be changed again?

Political correctness is like a merry-go-round. You ride it for a mile and end up right back where you started.

I believe as a whole we should move away from words used intentionally to harm and marginalize others who experience prejudice, discrimination, and violence based on these things every day in the real world.

By that logic, we should stop saying "white men" because certain groups of people use that term to marginalize them now. Not to mention how many laws are heavily biased against them and protective services for them are almost nonexistent. There's a very good reason why men commit suicide a lot more than women do and it's not toxic masculinity.

Its called being nice to people for a change and having some decent respect. IF youd read the thread at all you wouldnt be back here again wasting our time with this "anti pc" bullshit rhetoric so you can just stop right there.

And yes people will still use the old tags. THats what aliasing is for.

And no. THe people majority using the tags are rarely the trans or intersex artists themselves. Its people who have specifically fetishized this body type and continue to act ignorantly towards their nature that keep using them.

So no. CBoy was literally started as an insult. THis is not up for debate weve gone nearly 30 pages of this shit. THe terms are vulgar. THey are an issue. They have pushed people away and continue to do so. DRop the bullshit and the "everyones a victim" as well. THis is a marginalized group of people who are constantly literally being harmed or even killed for this in real life. Dehumanizing terms like these only help perpetuate the mentality and atmosphere that that is ok.

You clearly lack fundamental understanding of the issues involved here. THe fact youre bringing up toxic masculinity without clearly understanding what that means is just more pseudointellectualism to make your argument seem stronger.

Think about it less like "well these places have these words that mean nothing to us so its ok for me to use those terms" and more that, this is a global community. Welcome to the internet where you get to meet people from everywhere and guess what some people tend to not like it very much when you literally call them a slur word and use it to define their very being.

I said it at the beginning of tje post.
Imagine the tag for black skin was "negroid" and this thread was brought up to change that tag.

It would still be getting half the same backlash this one is right now because for that to be a colloquial tag it has to have existed and have been used for a long time.

And so the appeal to tradition comes in. "THats what weve always used so its ok to use that because it doesnt bother us."

"ITs how it is" is not an excuse. Its not a legitimate reason to keep using terms that are literally insults to describe actual people. BEcause there are actual people with bodies like this.

Get off your high horse and think about it for a second.

Ps: toxic masculinity is the forced repression of men by women and other men who have themselves been trained and brought up to believe that all men must be stoic and unfeeling. Toxic masculinity is the shit that leads to literally all of those things youre talking about. A system that doesnt take care of men becausw "youre a guy youre supposed to be stronger than this."

Know what you're discussing before you use it as a core argument.

BlueDingo said:
Political correctness is like a merry-go-round. You ride it for a mile and end up right back where you started.

I've heard this argument before but I never really understood it.

Let me grant you that it is true., for the sake of a demonstration Any word we pick will be fine for a while but may eventually end up being considered negatively at some point in the future.

So?

Why does that mean it's pointless? Explain to me how "this is not an absolutely permanent solution to the problem at hand" is an argument against choosing better words in the here and now.

And then once you've done that, stop washing yourself. Because you're just going to get dirty again anyway, right? What's the point of bathing if it's not a permanent solution to the problem of being dirty?

Oh? If you don't clean your body, you'll end up disgusting other people? So it's a task that needs to be undertaken every once in a while, even if it's not a permanent solution?

Well. That's your answer, isn't it?

That isn't to say that I grant your premise - there are terms that have been around for a while that are not considered slurs. Just that even if your premise is granted, it doesn't matter.

BlueDingo said:
You do realise that this change as you called it will affect every artist whose artwork is attributed with these terms whether they want it or not, right? What if the majority of those artists don't have a problem with the old terms, prefer the old terms over the new ones or even find the idea of not having the old ones displayed more offensive? Are you willing to put your needs and your feelings above theirs?

It doesn't matter if they're not bothered by these tags personally. These tags are slurs and should be replaced with better alternatives that do not use language that has a history of being intentionally used to demean and marginalize people.

It's mostly the people who are not targeted by slurs who aren't bothered by them. This absolutely does not make it OK to continue using them.

wolftacos said:
It doesn't matter if they're not bothered by these tags personally.

i'm pretty sure that right there has been one of the issues that gets brought up over and over in this thread as well as being one reason the thread won't die. for good

These tags are slurs and should be replaced with better alternatives that do not use language that has a history of being intentionally used to demean and marginalize people.

and later on, when the new words star being used as slurs and insults, we'll be right back here on another thread like this one if this one doesn't simply get necroed...again.

@clawdragons: ^ that is what bluedingo meant when he said "Political correctness is like a merry-go-round. You ride it for a mile and end up right back where you started." even if the words used as tags get changed we'll eventually be right back where we started because eventually someone is going to get offended by the new words and want them changed as well.

so long as people keep enjoying the victim life this situation is only going to repeat every so often.

It's mostly the people who are not targeted by slurs who aren't bothered by them.

i'm sick of repeating myself. let yourself be offended by mere words if you want to. i really don't give a F anymore.

i really don't understand why so many people like being victims in order to get things they don't like changed. and it's not just this thread. people everywhere seem to LOVE being victims if it means getting things they don't like changed to what they do like...for the time being.

treos said:

textbox

i'm pretty sure that right there has been one of the issues that gets brought up over and over in this thread as well as being one reason the thread won't die. for good

and later on, when the new words star being used as slurs and insults, we'll be right back here on another thread like this one if this one doesn't simply get necroed...again.

@clawdragons: ^ that is what bluedingo meant when he said "Political correctness is like a merry-go-round. You ride it for a mile and end up right back where you started." even if the words used as tags get changed we'll eventually be right back where we started because eventually someone is going to get offended by the new words and want them changed as well.

so long as people keep enjoying the victim life this situation is only going to repeat every so often.

i'm sick of repeating myself. let yourself be offended by mere words if you want to. i really don't give a F anymore.

i really don't understand why so many people like being victims in order to get things they don't like changed. and it's not just this thread. people everywhere seem to LOVE being victims if it means getting things they don't like changed to what they do like...for the time being.

You threw the word "victim" around a lot, Treos. Why not get a headcount of how many "victims" there are supporting this, 'cause I will assure you that I did not suffer any trauma befitting such words, nor does my reasoning for supporting the change show sympathy for "them"; it benefits me and "them", and I'm willing to take that than take the option that just benefits me...

Or, in shorthand, speak for yourself...

treos said:
i really don't understand why so many people like being victims

These words are used to demean and marginalize a group of people because of their bodies. This group of people is also targeted by hate crimes, violence, and murder because of their bodies.

That's not "playing" to me, but whatevs.

treos said:

for someone that doesnt give a fuck, you are showing a rather lot of interest in whining as if the change would hurt your accessibility on this site, might i repeat my self again that this will not effect you or anyone elses searches at all and make one thing less that artists or character owners have to take issue of concerning their art being posted on e621...

Same old slippery rope strawman argument you keep pushing. No one is playing victim here treos, its established fact among millions of people in sociaty that these are vulgar terms made to demean a demographic, they were never made for anything else and using vulgar terms against another person may well cost you your job if found out. vulgar terms and simple insults are not the same thing.

Might also seem you havnt actually read claws full comment. By your whole strawman argument it would be pointless for you to even be alive right now since you will die anyways so why hold on to life when the situation will change later anyways.

treos said:
@clawdragons: ^ that is what bluedingo meant when he said "Political correctness is like a merry-go-round. You ride it for a mile and end up right back where you started." even if the words used as tags get changed we'll eventually be right back where we started because eventually someone is going to get offended by the new words and want them changed as well.

so long as people keep enjoying the victim life this situation is only going to repeat every so often.

I know. I granted him that point in order to make my point.

My point was "even if I grant that it's a merry-go-round, why does that matter?". How is it different from any number of other things we nonetheless recognize as important to maintain?

I clean my house even though I know it's going to get dirty again, putting me right back where I started, but in the meantime I can enjoy a house that's not dirty. And when it does get dirty again I don't have a problem with cleaning once more.

How is this so different?

Clawdragons said:
I know. I granted him that point in order to make my point.

My point was "even if I grant that it's a merry-go-round, why does that matter?". How is it different from any number of other things we nonetheless recognize as important to maintain?

I clean my house even though I know it's going to get dirty again, putting me right back where I started, but in the meantime I can enjoy a house that's not dirty. And when it does get dirty again I don't have a problem with cleaning once more.

How is this so different?

For that comparison to work, people eventually taking offense to a term that is currently not offensive would have to be an inevitability. By implying it is, you are also implying they are too weak to resist a word's power and are willing to give that word power by taking offense to it, even if it isn't offensive.

Take it from someone who was bullied non-stop though school. Running from the problem only allows the problem to give chase, facing the problem helps to eliminate it. Teach them how to face the problem instead of letting them run away from it. I faced it and became a much stronger person as a result of that. No words hurt me anymore.

Self-empowerment is the answer. Strength of character is something that should be encouraged, not avoided.

At this point we have moved past "should we change this?" to "what should we change this to?". Move on.

Mutisija said:
male intersex would apply to maleherms and cuntboys, and female intersex would apply to feminine herms and dickgirls.

After what I have read here, the admins say that the focus is on sex, not the upper body! I do not know what's on a vagina, male. Therefore, male_intersex would be applicable to maleherm, herm and dickgirl.

German
Nachdem was ich hier gelesen habe sagen die Admins, dass der Fokus auf den Geschlecht ist, nicht dem Oberkörper!!! Ich wüsste nicht was an einer Vagina, Männlich ist. Daher wäre male_intersex auf Maleherm, herm und dickgirl anwendbar.

wolftacos said:
It doesn't matter if they're not bothered by these tags personally. These tags are slurs and should be replaced with better alternatives that do not use language that has a history of being intentionally used to demean and marginalize people.

It's mostly the people who are not targeted by slurs who aren't bothered by them. This absolutely does not make it OK to continue using them.

I can understand you, but the questions are: where is the border? What are the next words? What if the new and neutral words, other artists did not like? Do you understand? Many artists have problems with this and that, but look in the forum, hardly one makes the effort to contribute here. Since you contribute, here my public thanks.

I myself also have so my problems with these two words, but just because they are translating sexistically. Cuntboy as a word, without paying attention to the importance, I like optically. But unlike another said, words are the one and actions are the other. Just because a word comes from times when it was mean, it depends ultimately on the behavior of all people, as affected feel. A word can originally be considered negative, but if the society is kind to the opposite, the affected basically does not matter, because they have no harm.

In Germany, we have the term zwitter for Herm. This is neither sexist nor degrading, as far as I know, nevertheless, those affected view it as discriminating and want to be called hermaphrodite. The irony of the matter is that "zwitter" is only the German word for hermaphrodite.

The problem with both of them is, they are simple and say clearly what it is. Cuntboy = Male with Female Sex, Dickgirl = Female with Male Sex. We need terms which are similarly clear and easy to translate for non-English-speaking users. Unfortunately for me still not much useful examples.

In short, I am, like you, for a change. I am against it when it is replaced with nonsense like: phallalady, vagentelman, feminine_intersex, and so on.

BlueDingo said:
For that comparison to work, people eventually taking offense to a term that is currently not offensive would have to be an inevitability. By implying it is, you are also implying they are too weak to resist a word's power and are willing to give that word power by taking offense to it, even if it isn't offensive.

Take it from someone who was bullied non-stop though school. Running from the problem only allows the problem to give chase, facing the problem helps to eliminate it. Teach them how to face the problem instead of letting them run away from it. I faced it and became a much stronger person as a result of that. No words hurt me anymore.

Self-empowerment is the answer. Strength of character is something that should be encouraged, not avoided.

You said it. Unfortunately, however, our societies are such that they harass minorities or the like. Sometimes you have to admit that this can also provoke something. It is easy to change words on a website, but it is more important and better for all of us to behave as socially, that such terms become meaningless.

Ratte said:
At this point we have moved past "should we change this?" to "what should we change this to?". Move on.

Good point, I'll stop bringing up the "should" part in future posts.

PlüschTiger said:
The problem with both of them is, they are simple and say clearly what it is. Cuntboy = Male with Female Sex, Dickgirl = Female with Male Sex. We need terms which are similarly clear and easy to translate for non-English-speaking users. Unfortunately for me still not much useful examples.

In short, I am, like you, for a change. I am against it when it is replaced with nonsense like: phallalady, vagentelman, feminine_intersex, and so on.

I agree any replacements need to be similarly clear. I really liked andromorph and gynomorph, but like I said in my original post I am partial to these because I'm used to hearing those root words.

While "female_with_penis" and "male_with_vagina" are wordy, they also get the meaning across pretty clear to me as well. Even clearer than andro/gynomorph.

Honestly i still like andro and gyno a lot and a large part of the trans community was fine with them. THe only argument against them was that some people "might" get confused

Some people WERE confused. I can count myself as one who specifically was in favor of them then went 'ok no what the fuck' when I went to describe how I would use them unambiguously -- andromorph covers both maleherm and cuntboy, gynomorph covers both herm and dickgirl AFAICS.

I'm not, at this point, convinced that you can bring yourself to stop misrepresenting your opposition. But I'll reiterate that trying to pursue a just cause through unjust means is simply shooting yourself in the foot.

savageorange said:
andromorph covers both maleherm and cuntboy, gynomorph covers both herm and dickgirl AFAICS.

On what basis?
In biology, andromorph have male appearance but female genitalia, and vice versa for gynomorphs. That's different from herms, and the only modern use of the words.

Whew lad, what a journey it was going through this thread.

Onto the main point of the thread at this point though, unfortunately, there aren't a lot of good, straightforward alternatives to the current tags of cuntboy or shemale

Admittedly, Andromorph and Gynomorph are the closest to this as we currently have, or at least that I'm aware of. However, the majority of users will not know what these tags mean, and there will be a lot of incorrect tagging as a result (Even though through proper aliasing, implications and user tag-corrections, this will not be an issue.).

Accessibility and ease of searching should still be the top priority in a content aggregator like e621.

Unfortunately, this entire situation just gives me flashbacks to all of the outrage that was on SoFurry, and even they couldn't come up with acceptable, one-word alternatives.

GDelscribe said:
Stereotypical tumblr post with lots of literally's and a healthy dose of irony

I do find it rather amusing that you're telling people to get off their high horse while you're riding yours though.

Espeonthing said:
current tags of cuntboy or shemale

...tho shemale is aliased away and it has been that way forever. take a look at the tag wiki

Espeonthing said:
Admittedly, Andromorph and Gynomorph are the closest to this as we currently have, or at least that I'm aware of. However, the majority of users will not know what these tags mean, and there will be a lot of incorrect tagging as a result (Even though through proper aliasing, implications and user tag-corrections, this will not be an issue.).

The most agreed upon tags seem to be mf_intersex/fm_intersex (forum #212094) and fbmg_intersex/mbfg_intersex (forum #212283).

It seems as though andromorph/gynomorph creates problems with the herm and maleherm tags.

Mutisija said:
...tho shemale is aliased away and it has been that way forever. take a look at the tag wiki

...Well, shit, that just shows what a wonder aliasing is.

JAKXXX3 said:
The most agreed upon tags seem to be mf_intersex/fm_intersex (forum #212094) and fbmg_intersex/mbfg_intersex (forum #212283).

It seems as though andromorph/gynomorph creates problems with the herm and maleherm tags.

I am not a fan of those, to be honest, because they aren't clear and concise, and would go against the purpose of tagging in the first place.
(fbmg_intersex/mbfg_intersex would be awful to tag and maintain as well, imagine the typos.)

JAKXXX3 said:
It seems as though andromorph/gynomorph creates problems with the herm and maleherm tags.

Also, if you would look at the previous page, it would have been explained why these two terms wouldn't cause problems with those two tags.

Genjar said:
On what basis?
In biology, andromorph have male appearance but female genitalia, and vice versa for gynomorphs. That's different from herms, and the only modern use of the words.

JAKXXX3 said:
The most agreed upon tags seem to be mf_intersex/fm_intersex (forum #212094) and fbmg_intersex/mbfg_intersex (forum #212283).

It seems as though andromorph/gynomorph creates problems with the herm and maleherm tags.

They dont really cause problems with herm or maleherm as much as the intersex tags do, unless there's something I missed (please correct me if Im wrong)

Also @espeonthing I dont appreciate the flamebaiting. Seriously.

GDelscribe said:
Also @espeonthing I dont appreciate the flamebaiting. Seriously.

I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your post, in a very cuntish manner, yes. I apologize for such.
No need for the forceful tone, however, we're all peers.

Not to offend, but I think this whole "issue" would come to a conclusion if GDelscribe could just take a seat on the sidelines and leave it to others.

Ko-san said:
Not to offend, but I think this whole "issue" would come to a conclusion if GDelscribe could just take a seat on the sidelines and leave it to others.

a conclusion that would mean forgotten i would assume.

Funny that is actually what Gdelscribe has been doing till a week ago, youl notice that it is always the people complaining and making excuses against this change that have absolutely no meaningful basis to them that are keep reviving this particular thread seemingly ignoring also that it was already decided there will be change.
It does amaze me how much push back this issue is keep getting considering that it pretty much a non-issue(by far the most harmless unobstructive alias compared to anything else that was aliased or proposed to be aliased this year) to everyone but those who just love calling intersex people child cunts and dicks...

Ruku said:

a conclusion that would mean forgotten i would assume.

Funny that is actually what Gdelscribe has been doing till a week ago, youl notice that it is always the people complaining and making excuses against this change that have absolutely no meaningful basis to them that are keep reviving this particular thread seemingly ignoring also that it was already decided there will be change.
It does amaze me how much push back this issue is keep getting considering that it pretty much a non-issue(by far the most harmless unobstructive alias compared to anything else that was aliased or proposed to be aliased this year) to everyone but those who just love calling intersex people child cunts and dicks...

No,I'm more referring to the instances where someone comes up with a suggestion that other like before GDelscribe cuts them off by either saying it's still a slur or they prefer something else. I personally think this whole thing is stupid, and that it's stupid that a concession has been made that the tags "must change", but that the "issue" still hasn't come to a conclusion some months later. And you can't even blame "push-back" as those user's opinions are thrown out due to the aforementioned concession. If anything those users are the ones keeping this thread alive as the people who say the tags must change apparently get bored with it a move on until someone comes along with an opinion they disagree with. Just pick something already or let it die.

Im not going to dignify that outside of this . THe only words ive shot down are intentionally lazy variations of what we already have. LIke penisgirl or phallady. YOu might as well just use shemale cause you obviously dont care if thats your suggetion and hell yeah im gonna try and shoot things that are the same or worse than what we have now.

There are tons of other good suggestiojs that have been made and im all for standing by them.

If you actually cared about the topic instead of trying to smear me and cause drama as usual you would know that.
I know you dont care Ko-san. Youve said as much earlier.

Stop trying to incite drama. Were actually trying to come up with something here thats better than what we have and I can tell you going from one belittling joke rag to another is not "better" its even more insulting.

Its telling us that the only way that change will be accepted is if we get to keep being as insulting as we feel like.

Yeah no.

Phallady penisgirl are not an option. They never were.

We have three candidates right now that are really utilitarian and good for tagging. WEre trying to work on that with some modicum of civility and consistently bringing up smear tactics or etcetera to derail the discussion isnot helping anyone.

Anyway.

Right now the tags are andromorph gynomorph, masculine_intersex and feminine_intersex or masc_with_vagina/pussy or whatever and fem with penis.

Theyre reasonable. OBjective. ANd body focused which is how we tag gender here.

GDelscribe said:
Phallady

best made-up word ever

GDelscribe said:
andromorph gynomorph

Quick search through Furaffinity, Inkbunny, Weasyl, Sofurry and Furrynetwork shows that nobody uses them.

I'm not reading that because I'm not going to go in circles with you over this.

"Once you become your own obstacle you become an obstacle to others trying to help you"