Could someone give a summary of the alternative name proposals that we're considering now? 33 pages is a lot to search through.

forum #199781
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bDz8wFCSSMAqw0qD9mlJui8l_34rSSjEiuqMyR9GrgM/edit?usp=sharing
forum #140749

fourroll said:
...

The problem is that these terms are highly technical with little use outside of scientific literature, and even then, the definition can vary between fields of study. I would like to add, from my personal experience as a university student, that it is very common for scientific articles to restate the meaning of certain terms important to the article, in doing so, the authors redefine the words to suit the highly specific purpose of the article. If you really think that it would help, I could find more examples of gynomorph and andromorph in scientific literature, it would be easier for me to acquire these texts since my student account allows access to most online repositories of academic journals.

No matter what new tags we come up with, there will ALWAYS be problems with any of them, one way or another, none of them will be perfect, so i suggest we choose the BEST one, and i think gynomorph/andromorph are the best ones.

If we're gonna choose any version of gynomorph/andromorph, then i suggest we pick the shortest and simplest one: gynomorph/andromorph.

Getting awfully quiet in this thread. What's going on?

Serperior09876 said:
Getting awfully quiet in this thread. What's going on?

We're waiting to see if there are any more arguments for or against any of the suggested tags.

Serperior09876 said:
Getting awfully quiet in this thread. What's going on?

Well, there are two ways to explain it:

And

Honestly, I find it good that we're quiet, it's one less topic to read amongst the sea of eye-catchers. Every thread wants to demand attention, and this one is just being quiet.

Siral_Exan said:
the "screaming men"

The men...

Any particular reason why you specified "men" instead of "humans" or "people"?

BlueDingo said:
Any particular reason why you specified "men" instead of "humans" or "people"?

"Grumpy old men"

Also phonetically pleasing.

Siral_Exan said:
Well, there are two ways to explain it:

the "screaming men"

We're waiting for someone to start screaming at "this" (replace with "tag", "topic", "user(s)", etc.) again. Then people'll start screaming at their loudest for a day, then they'll start to lower their tone over a week, and which then whimpers and dies out. The men shut up and quiet is heard, until one of them screams again. This goes on ad infinitum, until one of three things occur: there's nothing left to scream about; there is no one left to scream; or there is no reason left to scream.

And

the "explanation"

We are waiting until someone voices their approval or disapproval on this topic, a tag name, or a person whom did... something, context sensitive. Once one person starts up, everyone begins on the topic, and it is renewed. After a day or two, the topic starts to simmer down, and that trend continues until there is no reason to continue. We, then, stay quiet until it starts again. Once there is: no tag that would solve the problem; no user who wants to solve the problem; or no problem unresolved (I.E. the solution), this continues.

Honestly, I find it good that we're quiet, it's one less topic to read amongst the sea of eye-catchers. Every thread wants to demand attention, and this one is just being quiet.

I think we can get this issue solved a lot quicker if we don't just talk for a few days, then stop talking a few weeks, than then talk again...ETC, but i understand your point. We need more viewpoints on these tags. I'm just worried if we stop posting this thread will be lost in the threads a few pages back.

Also, be careful Siral Exan, their could be MRAs watching.

It does sometimes help to let tempers cool, but the sort of double edged sword is that with enough time, everybody sort of forgets all of the points that've already come up, and you wind up with the next bout of posts just being a rehashing of the older ones. We're probably not likely to be lucky enough to have anyone disinterested enough in the topic(s) to be willing to honestly distill and lay out a summary of everything up to date who's simultaneously interested enough to put in the effort to actually do it. But that probably would be the most productive thing. The majority of the actual useful points mostly get lost in a roiling sea of anger. If we could on these longer more contentious threads, and anyone wants to take the time, it would be helpful to just refresh every now and then with a to-date synopsis of the most basic points.

BlueDingo said:
Any particular reason why you specified "men" instead of "humans" or "people"?

Because it's "socially acceptable" to assume that if anyone is opposed to a change in any way, it's the men. If anyone is supportive of something that is deemed offensive by the "social majority", it's going to be the men. Heaven forbid "the men" be progressive, open minded, rational....

Serperior09876 said:
I think we can get this issue solved a lot quicker if we don't just talk for a few days, then stop talking a few weeks, than then talk again...ETC, but i understand your point. We need more viewpoints on these tags. I'm just worried if we stop posting this thread will be lost in the threads a few pages back.

Also, be careful Siral Exan, their could be MRAs watching.

Also, pardon my disassociation with social terminology...but what in the world is an MRA? Your wording makes it sound a bit like a condescending remark towards anyone disagreeing with/criticising Siral's comment. >_>

Anywho, more on topic. I feel a bit indifferent on gynomorph and andromorph, but I would think it looses too much intuition outside of academic settings. The average user likely wouldn't know they even relate to genitals/gender, I imagine. I myself am only able to inference based on "gynecologist" and "androgens", but as GreenReaper said about "androgynous" and "gynecologist"....

notnobody said:
It does sometimes help to let tempers cool, but the sort of double edged sword is that with enough time, everybody sort of forgets all of the points that've already come up, and you wind up with the next bout of posts just being a rehashing of the older ones. We're probably not likely to be lucky enough to have anyone disinterested enough in the topic(s) to be willing to honestly distill and lay out a summary of everything up to date who's simultaneously interested enough to put in the effort to actually do it. But that probably would be the most productive thing. The majority of the actual useful points mostly get lost in a roiling sea of anger. If we could on these longer more contentious threads, and anyone wants to take the time, it would be helpful to just refresh every now and then with a to-date synopsis of the most basic points.

Indeed, as I've said before I agree on an alternative being used if it's found suitable, but with how long this has dragged on and myself not being particularly "emotional" about all of it I've dropped in and out and forgotten what I've even voiced my input on before.

Guys, can we not right now? Can we just not? This isn't the place. It's not going to end well. It never ends well.

Clawdragons said:
Guys, can we not right now? Can we just not? This isn't the place. It's not going to end well. It never ends well.

Sorry.

404_ArtNotFound said:
Because it's "socially acceptable" to assume that if anyone is opposed to a change in any way, it's the men. If anyone is supportive of something that is deemed offensive by the "social majority", it's going to be the men. Heaven forbid "the men" be progressive, open minded, rational....

Also, pardon my disassociation with social terminology...but what in the world is an MRA? Your wording makes it sound a bit like a condescending remark towards anyone disagreeing with/criticising Siral's comment. >_>

Anywho, more on topic. I feel a bit indifferent on gynomorph and andromorph, but I would think it looses too much intuition outside of academic settings. The average user likely wouldn't know they even relate to genitals/gender, I imagine. I myself am only able to inference based on "gynecologist" and "androgens", but as GreenReaper said about "androgynous" and "gynecologist"....

Indeed, as I've said before I agree on an alternative being used if it's found suitable, but with how long this has dragged on and myself not being particularly "emotional" about all of it I've dropped in and out and forgotten what I've even voiced my input on before.

"MRA" stands for "Mens Right's Activists." Sorry if it sounded condescending, it was just a genuine warning to Sirel that he may get a rise out of MRAs if he says stuff like, "screaming men." And nobody is saying ALL men are like that. Definitely not.

Now, back on topic.

Just re-found an interesting forum topic from about 2 years ago as of posting:

forum #128973 - tagging gender through TWYS - primary and secondary sexual traits (May 2014)

Some points in there about 'cuntboys' that are still relevant now

titanmelon said:
Just re-found an interesting forum topic from about 2 years ago as of posting:

forum #128973 - tagging gender through TWYS - primary and secondary sexual traits (May 2014)

Some points in there about 'cuntboys' that are still relevant now

It goes back to the earlier issue of characters like Mikhaila who are androgynous.

I mean, thats part of the reason why I like/support the andromorph gynomorph terms so much

GDelscribe said:
It goes back to the earlier issue of characters like Mikhaila who are androgynous.

I mean, thats part of the reason why I like/support the andromorph gynomorph terms so much

I do not know how often I should point out, which on the part of the admins was meant that the focus on the gender kills. Furthermore, the new names must also be understandable for all, that is to say also translatable. If you understand Andro and Gyno okay, but not everyone does.

Morph has nothing to do with intersex. Morph has to do with transforming. Please stop building any abstract combinations that degenerate into absurdities. Gyno, Andrmorph you can take with gender fluid characters like aven-fawn, not in a different gender, which is outside of man and woman. Some would consider the designation Morph in sex as an offense, as if one were a misbehavior. This is as if you were an insult against another swap. Has any of you ever thought about it?

https://e621.net/post/index?tags=morph

First of all morph is literally the word for form. Im sorry your first language isnt english but even you can look that up on google in your native language and learn that.

And your message makes no sense. If im to follow that somehow Im offending people? Like. Im sorry. I know you dont speak English.

But you make no sense can you please clarify your meaning

PlüschTiger said:
I do not know how often I should point out, which on the part of the admins was meant that the focus on the gender kills. Furthermore, the new names must also be understandable for all, that is to say also translatable. If you understand Andro and Gyno okay, but not everyone does.

Morph has nothing to do with intersex. Morph has to do with transforming. Please stop building any abstract combinations that degenerate into absurdities. Gyno, Andrmorph you can take with gender fluid characters like aven-fawn, not in a different gender, which is outside of man and woman. Some would consider the designation Morph in sex as an offense, as if one were a misbehavior. This is as if you were an insult against another swap. Has any of you ever thought about it?

https://e621.net/post/index?tags=morph

German - Deutsch

Ich weiß nicht wie oft ich darauf hinweisen soll, das von Seiten der admins gemeint wurde das der Fokus auf dem Geschlecht liegt. Des weiteren, müssen die neuen Namen auch für alle verständlich sein, das heißt auch übersetzbar. Wenn du Andro- und Gyno- verstehst okay, doch das tut nicht jeder.

Zudem hat Morph nichts mit intersex zu tun. Morph hat mit verwandeln zu tun. Hört bitte auf, irgendwelche abstrakten Kombinationen zu erfinden, welche in Absurditäten ausarten. Gyno-, Andrmorph kannst du bei gender fluide Charaktere wie aven-fawn nehmen, nicht bei einem anderen Geschlecht, welches außerhalb von Mann und Frau ist. Manch einer würde die Bezeichnung Morph im Geschlecht als Beleidigung ansehen, als wäre man eine Missgeburt. Das ist als würdest du eine Beleidigung gegen eine andere Tauschen. Hat einer von euch daran schon mal gedacht?

morph means form/shape. andromorph means male form/shape and gynomorph means female form/shape. "morphing" means forming or shaping. you need to understand that morph as substantive and morph as verb are two different things. we are not using the verb. your argument is like saying that calling something "apple shaped" is wrong because shaping is used as verb to describe changing something's shape

Mutisija said:
morph means form/shape. andromorph means male form/shape and gynomorph means female form/shape. "morphing" means forming or shaping. you need to understand that morph as substantive and morph as verb are two different things. we are not using the verb. your argument is like saying that calling something "apple shaped" is wrong because shaping is used as verb to describe changing something's shape

This is nice and good, but that does not change anything because firstly, Google can not even shape and shape apart, let alone "andromorph". And then we come back to what is meant? Gyno (breasts or vagina?), Andro (flat chest or penis?). The words we take must clearly say what is meant. Not just hints!

I do not know if you or others do not understand it, or can not. Many users have to translate a lot of things and there are no words that can not even translate google. Do you think it is coincidence that many servers are somewhere, instead of in Germany or the countries where the users want to see such and other pictures? Users have to be able to see English-speaking pages around the world because other laws are in place in Europe. For the reason, Loli has now been banned on sofurry, even though the server is in the US. The author of the page is, I believe, from Austria.

I also said the intersexual might feel attacked by Morph. We have it here in Germany with the word (Zwitter). (Zwitter) is the German word for hermaphrodite. Germans (Zwitter) prefer the term hermaphrodite, although (Zwitter) is the same, only the German word. Even if it does not make any sense, people feel affected by us, by using the word. The stupid thing is that people often do not care what a word means, it is enough if it sounds bad.

I've already said it makes it easy. Exchange the offensive words, against nicer ones. Keep the components of words (genital and gender) in, only changes the words for it.

GDelscribe said:
First of all morph is literally the word for form. Im sorry your first language isnt english but even you can look that up on google in your native language and learn that.

And your message makes no sense. If im to follow that somehow Im offending people? Like. Im sorry. I know you dont speak English.

But you make no sense can you please clarify your meaning

Google: English - German

Form = Form
Shape = Form
Gyno = Gyno
Andro = Andro

That is easy with Google, unfortunately, google was not wise enough to make the explanations in my language. These come only in the opposite direction (English to German) and then in English.

The Word -morph could be interpreted as an insult to intersexuals, as now Cuntboy and Dickgirl. With us in Germany, the hermaphrodites feel themselves even attacked because of the German word for hermaphrodite. Zwitter is the German word for hermaphrodite. The word component morph could be interpreted as freak.

As you have noticed, I do not speak English, so the new words should also be translatable. That's when Cuntboy and dickgirl the case and everyone knows after translation, what is meant.

PlüschTiger said:
This is nice and good, but that does not change anything because firstly, Google can not even shape and shape apart, let alone "andromorph". And then we come back to what is meant? Gyno (breasts or vagina?), Andro (flat chest or penis?). The words we take must clearly say what is meant. Not just hints!

I do not know if you or others do not understand it, or can not. Many users have to translate a lot of things and there are no words that can not even translate google. Do you think it is coincidence that many servers are somewhere, instead of in Germany or the countries where the users want to see such and other pictures? Users have to be able to see English-speaking pages around the world because other laws are in place in Europe. For the reason, Loli has now been banned on sofurry, even though the server is in the US. The author of the page is, I believe, from Austria.

I also said the intersexual might feel attacked by Morph. We have it here in Germany with the word (Zwitter). (Zwitter) is the German word for hermaphrodite. Germans (Zwitter) prefer the term hermaphrodite, although (Zwitter) is the same, only the German word. Even if it does not make any sense, people feel affected by us, by using the word. The stupid thing is that people often do not care what a word means, it is enough if it sounds bad.

I've already said it makes it easy. Exchange the offensive words, against nicer ones. Keep the components of words (genital and gender) in, only changes the words for it.

German - Deutsch

Das ist schön und gut, doch ändert das nichts denn erstens kann Google nicht mal Form und Shape auseinander halten, geschweige denn "andromorph". Zudem kommen wir dann wieder zu dem, was ist gemeint? Gyno (Brüste oder Vagina?), Andro (Flache Brust oder Penis?). Die Worte die wir nehmen müssen eindeutig sagen, was gemeint ist. Nicht nur Andeutungen!

Ich weiß nicht ob du oder andere es nicht verstehen wollen, oder nicht können. Viele User müssen vieles erst übersetzen und da helfen keine Wörter welche nicht mal google übersetzen kann. Glaubst du es ist Zufall das viele Server irgendwo stehen, statt in Deutschland oder den Ländern wo die User solche und andere Bilder sehen wollen? User müssen auf Englisch sprachige Seiten um das überhaupt sehen zu können, weil in Europa andere Gesetze herrschen. Aus dem Grund ist auch auf sofurry jetzt Loli verbannt worden, obwohl der Server in den USA ist. Der Macher der Seite ist, glaube ich, aus Österreich.

Ich habe auch gesagt das intersexuelle sich durch Morph angegriffen fühlen könnten. Wir haben es hier in Deutschland mit dem Wort (Zwitter). (Zwitter) ist das Deutsche Wort für Hermaphrodit. Deutsche (Zwitter) bevorzugen die Bezeichnung Hermaphrodit, obwohl (Zwitter) das selbe ist, nur das Deutsche Wort. Auch wenn es kein Sinn macht, fühlen sich die Leute bei uns, bei Verwendung des Wortes, angegriffen. Das dumme an der Sache ist das es Menschen oft nicht interessiert was ein Wort bedeutet, es reicht wenn es schlecht klingt.

Ich habe schon mal gesagt, macht es einfach. Tauscht die Anstößigen Worte, gegen nettere. Behaltet die Bestandteile der Worte (Genital und Geschlecht) bei, ändert nur die Worte dafür.

we have tag wikis for reason. they can be used to clarify othrwise unclear terms. also at this point your only arguments seem to be is that the terms dont function with google translator. like it doesnt function with finnish either because 50% of anything from
this site cannot be properly translated to finnish with google translator. but it doesnt really matter. what matters is how it functions in english because this site is in english. its not meant to cater needs of non english speakers. we cannot start building everything around how well it translates to X language with google translator. if we did, we would need to change knotting because it doesnt have proper equilevant in finnish and can cause msileading results for people who google translate shit from english to finnish!!

What about "Androgyny" for trans? - Or the Japanese word Toransu?

FurryLover001 said:
What about "Androgyny" for trans? - Or the Japanese word Toransu?

I thought Angrogyny just referred to one's appearance at a glance. I've been called androgynous at times without the person joking, and I'm not trans.

kamimatsu said:
I thought Angrogyny just referred to one's appearance at a glance. I've been called androgynous at times without the person joking, and I'm not trans.

Wikipedia wrote:
Androgyny is the combination of masculine and feminine characteristics. Gender ambiguity may be found in fashion, gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual lifestyle.

I think that pretty good. :)

Soruce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny

FurryLover001 said:
What about "Androgyny" for trans? - Or the Japanese word Toransu?

Androgyny is aliased to ambiguous_gender on e621. We tagged based on visual information, so an androgynous appearance without any obvious sexual features means that a subject's gender is difficult to determine, so we categorise it as 'ambiguous'.

Also, from what I can find, 'toransu' is just the japanese translation of 'trans', it wouldn't make sense to use it if 'trans' is already discounted.

Mutisija said:
we have tag wikis for reason. they can be used to clarify othrwise unclear terms. also at this point your only arguments seem to be is that the terms dont function with google translator. like it doesnt function with finnish either because 50% of anything from
this site cannot be properly translated to finnish with google translator. but it doesnt really matter. what matters is how it functions in english because this site is in english. its not meant to cater needs of non english speakers. we cannot start building everything around how well it translates to X language with google translator. if we did, we would need to change knotting because it doesnt have proper equilevant in finnish and can cause msileading results for people who google translate shit from english to finnish!!

The wiki of e621 is only as good as the content and also the was already criticized. In addition, the wiki should not be constantly changed, as with the x-ray change. The change and adaptation of the Wiki have been completely absurd. X-ray was completely eliminated from e621. In addition, there are for many still no entries and many entries run into the empty.

Your argument with knotting is not appropriate. Unlike there, it is about a (new) creation of a word, or the use of a strange one. The meaning of the word may not even look online, on Google or other sources. Even the e621 wiki is not important since self-contained entries are often not used. Ultimately, foreign users, with little English knowledge, do not use the Wiki because they can not read it.

Translating the page is something that is reasonable, at least in the languages ​​for which there are admins. At e621: Spanish, German (NotMeNotYou), maybe Mexican. You can be happy that there are Germans, for whose pictures you can masturbate here. I could take your language opinion racist, but I will not. Actually, I could, since here on e621 apparently a few users have something against Germans or foreigners.

Soffury is an Austrian (German-speaking) and has English as a basic language. However, some of the page functions can also be set in German. Maybe in a few other languages. Unfortunately, the FAQ is also English. Then I ask you: If Europeans can do that, why should not English or Americans be able to do it?

Back to the topic. I believe that the new words should be translatable. This also has advantages for English-speaking users, since they recognize without any problems what it is.

PlüschTiger said:
The wiki of e621 is only as good as the content and also the was already criticized. In addition, the wiki should not be constantly changed, as with the x-ray change. The change and adaptation of the Wiki have been completely absurd. X-ray was completely eliminated from e621. In addition, there are for many still no entries and many entries run into the empty.

Your argument with knotting is not appropriate. Unlike there, it is about a (new) creation of a word, or the use of a strange one. The meaning of the word may not even look online, on Google or other sources. Even the e621 wiki is not important since self-contained entries are often not used. Ultimately, foreign users, with little English knowledge, do not use the Wiki because they can not read it.

Translating the page is something that is reasonable, at least in the languages ​​for which there are admins. At e621: Spanish, German (NotMeNotYou), maybe Mexican. You can be happy that there are Germans, for whose pictures you can masturbate here. I could take your language opinion racist, but I will not. Actually, I could, since here on e621 apparently a few users have something against Germans or foreigners.

Soffury is an Austrian (German-speaking) and has English as a basic language. However, some of the page functions can also be set in German. Maybe in a few other languages. Unfortunately, the FAQ is also English. Then I ask you: If Europeans can do that, why should not English or Americans be able to do it?

Back to the topic. I believe that the new words should be translatable. This also has advantages for English-speaking users, since they recognize without any problems what it is.

German - Deutsch

Die Wiki von e621 ist nur so gut wie der Inhalt und auch der wurde schon bemängelt. Zudem sollte die Wiki auch nicht ständig geändert werden, wie bei der x-ray Änderung. Die Änderung und die Anpassung der Wiki sind völlig absurd umgesetzt worden. x-ray wurde aus e621 völlig eliminiert. Außerdem gibt es für vieles noch gar keine Einträge und etliche Einträge laufen ins leere.

Dein Argument mit knotting ist nicht passend. Anders als dort, geht es hier um eine (Neue) Kreation eines Wortes, oder das benutzen eines fremden. Die Bedeutung des Wortes kann vielleicht nicht mal online, in Google oder anderen Quellen suchen. Selbst die e621 Wiki ist da nebensächlich, da selbst vorhandenen Einträge oft nicht genutzt werden. Letztlich nutzt Ausländischen Usern, mit kaum Englisch Kenntnissen, die Wiki auch nicht, da sie diese nicht lesen können.

Das Übersetzen der Seite ist etwas was vernünftig wäre, zumindest in die Sprachen, wofür es Admins gibt. Bei e621: Spanisch, Deutsch (NotMeNotYou), vielleicht Mexikanisch. Du kannst froh sein das es Deutsche gibt, zu dessen Bildern du dir hier Masturbieren kannst. Ich könnte deine Sprachen Meinung rassistisch auffassen, werde ich aber nicht. Eigentlich könnte ich es, da hier auf e621 scheinbar ein paar User etwas gegen Deutsche oder Ausländer haben.

Soffury ist Österreichisch (Deutsch-Sprachig) und hat als Grundsprache Englisch. Allerdings ist ein Teil der Seitenfunktionen auch in Deutscher Sprache einstellbar. Vielleicht auch in ein paar anderen Sprachen. Leider ist die FAQ auch Englisch. Da frage ich dich: Wenn Europäer das können, warum sollten Engländer oder Amerikaner das nicht auch können?

Zurück zum Thema. Ich bin weiter der Meinung, das die neuen Worte übersetzbar sein sollten. Das hat auch für Englisch sprachige User Vorteile, da sie ohne Probleme erkennen worum es sich handelt.

- just because many wiki pages suck or are empty doesnt mean that the wiki page for andromorph and gynomorph will suck too or be empty. its very simple to just write "character with male body and vagina" and "character with female body and penis". its very simple and easy to translate. if you add few visual examples, there is absolutely nothing confusing about it for anyone no matter what language they are speaking.

-gynomorph and andromorph are not new terms. we are not creating anything new here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gynomorph
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/andromorph

-just because other sites do have other language options do not mean that e621 must have

One of these days I'm going to log on here and the well known tags that've been used forever are going to be gone, replaced by blandardized tags that not even Google will bring up anything of with the exception of this site.

Yup. This is reality. Hard to believe.

AnotherDay said:
One of these days I'm going to log on here and the well known tags that've been used forever are going to be gone, replaced by blandardized tags that not even Google will bring up anything of with the exception of this site.

Yup. This is reality. Hard to believe.

And searching the old tags will still work, because that's how aliases work.

Lance_Armstrong said:
And searching the old tags will still work, because that's how aliases work.

And tagging the old tags will still work, because that's also how aliases work.

AnotherDay said:
One of these days I'm going to log on here and the well known tags that've been used forever are going to be gone, replaced by blandardized tags that not even Google will bring up anything of with the exception of this site.

Yup. This is reality. Hard to believe.

And so the language goes up in scathefire. But only cloakatively. Perhaps I can convince you to ejurate your currently held viewpoint.

Obascerate for a moment and listen - what I have to say is no fallaciloquence. The changing of words does not viliorate our language, nor is it a teterrimous mancation, but rather, an evolution.

You may find that during your life, some words die, and others prosper. You have two options, then: You can remain an inveteratist, sink into depression and console yourself with stagma, or you can drop your lugent attitude and adapt.

Clawdragons said:
a bunch of gibberish to make a point

The thing about totally new words like those, meant to give hand-wavey non-meanings, is that confusion isn't an issue. That's way different from those gynomorph/andromorph suggestions, because they're supposed to have concrete meanings, and they're easily interpreted as each other. Neither one says which part of the character is morphic of the prefix. Gynomorph just comes off as female-ish, whether that means body except for genitals or genitals only. We'd literally be be less confusing if we used those words from your post instead. If the quality of the terms is irrelevant and we're one hundred percent depending on the wiki content to make up for it, we'd be better off just using k'shpoodle and fsh'piddle or some other meaningless shotgun blast of letters. The vague illusion of having some sex related meaning in those terms is damaging if anything.

notnobody said:
The thing about totally new words like those

Actually they are old words, generally from around the 1800s, though some from earlier. Which ought to change what you thought the point I was making was.

My point, to clarify, is that it simply doesn't make sense to complain that at some unspecified point in the future we will use different words than we do today, because that's the way that language has always and will always work.

Some words fall out of usage for various reasons. New words come into usage by various means. Language evolves.

Clawdragons said:
Actually they are old words, generally from around the 1800s, though some from earlier. Which ought to change what you thought the point I was making was.

My point, to clarify, is that it simply doesn't make sense to complain that at some unspecified point in the future we will use different words than we do today, because that's the way that language has always and will always work.

Some words fall out of usage for various reasons. New words come into usage by various means. Language evolves.

There's a difference between a word falling out of use and a word being forced out of use. Actively preventing a word form being used for any reason is not evolving language, it's policing it.

By the way, it's "obacerate".

BlueDingo said:
There's a difference between a word falling out of use and a word being forced out of use. Actively preventing a word form being used for any reason is not evolving language, it's policing it.

There is no difference. The mechanism by which a word falls out of use is irrelevant. It is still the evolution of language.

In the same way, regarding biology, it doesn't matter if it is sexual selection or influence from predation which causes a trait to evolve in some species, that trait still exists in the end and it is still evolution.

The mechanism differs, the end result is the same.

Actually bluedingo Clawdragons is right. Force people to stop using a word and they will find a new word to replace it.

Mutisija said:
- just because many wiki pages suck or are empty doesnt mean that the wiki page for andromorph and gynomorph will suck too or be empty.

You have referred to the wiki and the X-ray is my opinion of garbage and thus I am not alone there. X-ray has been replaced with (translucent_body - whatever) something is logically completely absurd, because the Wiki for Translucent body shows what a transparent body is. If I look at this, then it is to be expected that the wiki for the two words as equally bad.

Mutisija said:
its very simple and easy to translate. if you add few visual examples, there is absolutely nothing confusing about it for anyone no matter what language they are speaking.

-gynomorph and andromorph are not new terms. we are not creating anything new here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gynomorph
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/andromorph

http://www.bing.com/search?q=andromorph&src=IE10TR&pc=MALNJS&lf=1&qpvt=andromorph

47 hits (in my language) and the majority of it is not to use, or a part does not exist. Even your great links are about 23 words (andromorph) that do not say much. What are you gynomorphic? Cuntboy or Dickgirl? Since Dickgirls have a female figure, one would have to give it the word, but since E621 and in the search of the words gender had priority, one should give it Cuntboy. So you would make the wikis on the internet actually useless, because e621 then creates its own universe. The suggestion may sound good, but you can not take a word and then turn as you need it.

Of curiosity. If that with the wiki and the simple explanation is so simple, why the discussion over months and 34 pages? In that case, the admins and we could make it easy and can take the ix = cuntboy, iy equal Dickgirl. It is short, as it is explained in the wiki knows everyone what it means and the wiki is yes translatable. Since x is the female chromosome, one can also argue that it also represents sex, with y you already know.

Andromorph and gynomorph can be used as alternative variants for masculine and feminine, not for intersex gender.

Andro- and gyno- you can use as a component with penis, vagina, then you get more like Cuntboy and Dickgirl. This is however also can not be translated, even if google says the Androvagina is the language malagasi is. By the way, one of the translations for Pussy is -fotze- and that is an insult in Germany.

Example: Androvagina, Andropussy, Andro_vagina, Andro_pussy, gynopenis, ...... Andro and Gyno- give the figure and the sex the genital.

Clawdragons said:
Some words fall out of usage for various reasons. New words come into usage by various means. Language evolves.

That's right, but today I see it a bit more critical. I have nothing against English, but it can not be that by inserting foreign words into one's own language, slowly killing one's own language. I myself notice it again and again that it is sometimes impossible for me to find a German word for a thing, because the used ones are English-German. You would surely be strange when 10% of the words you use are Russian.

BlueDingo said:
There's a difference between a word falling out of use and a word being forced out of use. Actively preventing a word form being used for any reason is not evolving language, it's policing it.

In Egypt, people and pharaohs were removed from all records to destroy them. It did not matter if they were from papyrus, stone, wood or others. Even statues and portraits were destroyed, in order to wipe out everything that reminds them. That would be the most extreme variant of what you say. Censorship.

Clawdragons said:
There is no difference. The mechanism by which a word falls out of use is irrelevant. It is still the evolution of language.

In the same way, regarding biology, it doesn't matter if it is sexual selection or influence from predation which causes a trait to evolve in some species, that trait still exists in the end and it is still evolution.

The mechanism differs, the end result is the same.

It's actually closer to the difference between natural selction and eugenics.

On a site that tags everything in the English(generally american standard) language and aliases everything Chinese, Cyrillic, Japanese and what not to English equivalents, i dont see why you all are derailing this thread over issues of foreign language. And please you all knock it off stop acting like we are killing languages here, this bullshit is starting to get ridiculous. Your german searches are irrelevant plueshtiger because this website does not run under the german language.

Both Gynomorph and andromorph only concern body form/shape that is the opposite of the present genitalia, genitalia are irrelevant to these terms beyond one condition, that is if the body matches the genitalia or not. They may be applied when both body and genitalia match but thats not done in practice because it would just be redundant. (by the same token of not specifying when both psychological gender and physical sex match)

Gynomorph will always be for dickgirl because its always a pure female based body with male genitalia while andromorph will always be a cuntboy because it will always be a pure male based body with female

these terms go beyond what is just masculine and feminine.

And Plueshtiger, this thread is 34 pages long because over half of it is wasted on the same baseless excuses again and again against this keep being repeated because people are too lazy to read at all or willfully choose to ignore what is said and the facts having to be kept thrown against them. Time wasted that could go to actual discussion.

And if wikis work or not is not subject of this thread, please stay on topic.

Clawdragons said:
Actually they are old words, generally from around the 1800s, though some from earlier. Which ought to change what you thought the point I was making was.

It does just a little, but it's also a few degrees off from what I was saying back. Words that've been dead that long serve the same purpose as gibberish. Do you remember that one scene from Futurama with the robot mafia, and the goon says something like "what if the union should remain intragnizent?" (he meant intransigent, but good enough) and the boss says back "From the context it is clear what you mean.." Gibberish does the same thing. It lets you insert any word you already have for the essentially missing one. But when you use a word with identifiable Latin roots that someone can pick apart and figure out a meaning for, you're bound to get wrong guesses.

My guess would be that with those terms, we'd have three groups of people:
1.) total newbies who'd be utterly confused by the terms and never tag them because they wouldn't get it
2.) old heads like probably most of us on the board, most of whom would probably just keep using the old words out of habit
3.) people in the middle who're bold enough to tag but fuck it up constantly because they can never remember "wait does gynomorph mean he has a vagina or that she's sexually male but otherwise a woman..."

So I think the solution is, you either leave the "industry standard" terms, as it were, that we have now, or you come up with something super clear and impossible to mistake. Screw the kitschiness of using something vaguely familiar that sounds a little bit sciency. And the only thing I've seen so far in this thread that does that at all is the coded intersex varieties that specify all the parts.

notnobody said:
It does just a little, but it's also a few degrees off from what I was saying back. Words that've been dead that long serve the same purpose as gibberish. Do you remember that one scene from Futurama with the robot mafia, and the goon says something like "what if the union should remain intragnizent?" (he meant intransigent, but good enough) and the boss says back "From the context it is clear what you mean.." Gibberish does the same thing. It lets you insert any word you already have for the essentially missing one. But when you use a word with identifiable Latin roots that someone can pick apart and figure out a meaning for, you're bound to get wrong guesses.

My guess would be that with those terms, we'd have three groups of people:
1.) total newbies who'd be utterly confused by the terms and never tag them because they wouldn't get it
2.) old heads like probably most of us on the board, most of whom would probably just keep using the old words out of habit
3.) people in the middle who're bold enough to tag but fuck it up constantly because they can never remember "wait does gynomorph mean he has a vagina or that she's sexually male but otherwise a woman..."

So I think the solution is, you either leave the "industry standard" terms, as it were, that we have now, or you come up with something super clear and impossible to mistake. Screw the kitschiness of using something vaguely familiar that sounds a little bit sciency. And the only thing I've seen so far in this thread that does that at all is the coded intersex varieties that specify all the parts.

You underestimate peoples' abilities to learn.

notnobody said:
3.) people in the middle who're bold enough to tag but fuck it up constantly because they can never remember "wait does gynomorph mean he has a vagina or that she's sexually male but otherwise a woman..."

Not hard to remember, especially once you see them in use for a bit. And even beyond that, all it takes is a simple memory aid like: G-ynomorph = Dick-Girl, and andromorph get the "well, it wasn't the G-for-girl one, so this must be cuntboy.

Why wouldn't it be G-for-guy? If dickgirl goes away, there's no reason that's on the tip of anyone's tongue in relation. You're rationalizing it like someone who's been reading this thread for a while. We're talking about replacing terms that both tell you all of the relevant information in one word with terms that at their absolute best tell you half of that. Dickgirl means it's a girl and she has a dick. Gynomorph means... something about it seems female. But it doesn't say what. And that's assuming you're even familiar with the roots or have read the wiki. Which I put far beyond the average casual user. I'm not overestimating people's ability to learn. I'm correctly estimating their willingness to bother. And I don't think it matters anyway. It's better not to test users' puzzle solving abilities when you have the alternative of being clear.

notnobody said:
Why wouldn't it be G-for-guy? If dickgirl goes away, there's no reason that's on the tip of anyone's tongue in relation. You're rationalizing it like someone who's been reading this thread for a while. We're talking about replacing terms that both tell you all of the relevant information in one word with terms that at their absolute best tell you half of that. Dickgirl means it's a girl and she has a dick. Gynomorph means... something about it seems female. But it doesn't say what. And that's assuming you're even familiar with the roots or have read the wiki. Which I put far beyond the average casual user. I'm not overestimating people's ability to learn. I'm correctly estimating their willingness to bother. And I don't think it matters anyway. It's better not to test users' puzzle solving abilities when you have the alternative of being clear.

we have literally spent pages upon pages going through different alternatives and so far andromorph/gynomorph are best.

Wodahseht said:
Not hard to remember, especially once you see them in use for a bit. And even beyond that, all it takes is a simple memory aid like: G-ynomorph = Dick-Girl, and andromorph get the "well, it wasn't the G-for-girl one, so this must be cuntboy.

Andromorph, Andrew. Boy's name.
Gynomorph, Ginny. Girl's name.
-omorph, the visual form. As in, body shape. It's not Andronads and Gynonads, after all.

Mutisija said:
so far andromorph/gynomorph are best.

I still think the coded intersex varieties were the closest to a workable solution. Those two are nearly the worst we've had come up.

notnobody said:
I still think the coded intersex varieties were the closest to a workable solution. Those two are nearly the worst we've had come up.

A few people saying so doesn't make it true. Most people commenting here are saying they're the best.

Yeah but they're saying they're the best for bad reasons. "ooh that sounds good I like it" doesn't make it good.

Edit: I should've done a numeric tally as I went, but scanning back through to the 20s pages, I saw fairly equal like and dislike numbers for the pair, but noticed that half of both of those were the same people previously on the other side. One switched to liking because "oh it means the same as mabod/febod. Then okay," and most gave no reason, where the group who switched off of it all gave reasons of having come to see the problems they brought.

Edit: Screw it I had a minute... Bit shaky of a method, but I did my best to quickly tally it up. I just searched "androm" from page 1 back to try and find posts talking about it, only counted clear fors and againsts, excluded non-siding arguments against arguments, ignored repeat users unless it was a clear change, and tried to boil down the primary points to a few words as well as I could.

13 for and 21 against is the count here. Didn't count wolftacos for for, since he landed on against after, or thirtyeight or chaser for against for the opposite reason.

notnobody said:
"over simplification and putting words in peoples mouth..."

If your going make a list like that, please do it right.

my reason for supporting the 2 is because the have a background of usage irl much like they are being proposed for here, that cant be said for most of the other suggestions and as such have a definition that can be easlily reference from places other then e621. I support it also because its pretty much the only suggestion so far that wont cause issues with */* tags. And is easily clear once you get acquainted to it.

PS:
-too vague
-confussing
-hard for new users
-ambiguous

these excuses carry no weight at all as they are not problems of the tag it self but a lack of personal acquaintance that would apply to any and every tag at some point until it has existed for a while enough that it starts picking up or built up with enough posts that it is easliy found in searches(not a problem as old tags would be aliased to the new).

-cant translate

As i said before, this is a English website, other languages are irrelevant.

-will hurt tagging
-will harm usability

Thats what aliases are for, also becoming acquainted

-it mean boy and girl

Id suggest looking up a dictionary, i did note their definition on the page 34.

Furrin_Gok said:
Andromorph, Andrew. Boy's name.

Andrea. Not boy's name.

BlueDingo said:
Andrea. Not boy's name.

you dont really know how memory rules work, do you?

BlueDingo said:
Andrea. Not boy's name.

Youre intentionally playing devils advocate why? It doesnt assist in actual discussion at all. It just serves to waste time and annoy people.

GDelscribe said:
Youre intentionally playing devils advocate why? It doesnt assist in actual discussion at all. It just serves to waste time and annoy people.

Here you go

kamimatsu said:
Here you go

Except no? This isnt a case of echo chamber.

Playing devils advocate is a non contributory argumentative tactic designed to derail topics under the false pretense that the discussion is inherently flawed.

It places no argument of its own to state what is inherently wrong with the discussion. Playing Devils advocate literally has no purpose outside of regressionary tactics designed to dissuade discussion on a pertinent topic and your statement is much the same.

If you dont have any actual proof of an issue then attacking the topic itself with an open ended "but what about this" or "you already know why its bad tell me though" are also common diversionary tactics that have been employed time and time again.

None of which have to do with the echo chamber phenomenon.

Like has been said many times before. If you have something to contribute to the discussion for or against then by all means. But intentionally feigning ignorance or etc is not debate. Its elementary schoolyard bull and it just wastes everyones time.

Ruku said:
If your going make a list like that, please do it right.

FWIW I would say I was fairly accurately represented there.

-too vague
-confussing
-hard for new users
-ambiguous

these excuses carry no weight at all as they are not problems of the tag it self but a lack of personal acquaintance that would apply to any and every tag at some point until it has existed for a while enough that it starts picking up or built up with enough posts that it is easliy found in searches(not a problem as old tags would be aliased to the new).

Usage counts for something, but it isn't a cure-all. We overwhelmingly use very literal tags, which does, IMO, make things more accessible, especially for ESL people.

Vagueness is a problem. I would even rank it near the top, in a list of 'things people do with language that cause real problems'. What is not well determined is exactly how vague gyno/andromorph will turn out to be in practice.

-will hurt tagging
-will harm usability

Since my opinion of the gynomorph/andromorph terms oscillates between 'fine' and 'confusion', I'm inclined to say that we don't know whether it will hurt tagging or usability until we try it out.

notnobody said:
Why wouldn't it be G-for-guy?

I gave an example, not the memory aid everyone would use. Entire point was that it's not hard to come up with a personal way to remember which goes with which if you actually care at all to try.

Even if you use the same or roughly the same name over and over.

Andy is male for andromorph. Angie female for gynomorph.

I mean tou can make up anything and it will work. The names are just suggestions and trying to find holes in a suggested memory tool is intentionally diversionary.

GDelscribe said:
Even if you use the same or roughly the same name over and over.

Andy is male for andromorph. Angie female for gynomorph.

I mean tou can make up anything and it will work. The names are just suggestions and trying to find holes in a suggested memory tool is intentionally diversionary.

Trying to find holes is called Debugging. The only thing worse than knowing your suggestion has too many holes is NOT knowing your suggestion has too many holes. You can't fix what you don't know exists.

Ruku said:
Your german searches are irrelevant plueshtiger because this website does not run under the german language.

First, you know how to cite, so use the function even if I should notice from your answer. Besides, I do not even know if you are exactly what. No one said anything about killing languages.

Ruku, it's about understanding the meaning of the words. Whether the word is in English, German, or Japanese, I really do not care, it should be translatable!! In addition, I have already said that it can be perceived by other people as offensive, why is this fact ignored? I have at least 2 times brought an example (-Zwitter-) from my country, where even a normal word is seen as offensive. That you the concern of user with another language is no preference, is selfish. If the servers in Germany could be, then we Germans could also say, learn German and keep their mouths shut. If you argue egoistically, it does not throw a good light on you.

Ruku said:
Both Gynomorph and andromorph only concern body form/shape that is the opposite of the present genitalia, genitalia are irrelevant to these terms beyond one condition,

This is not irrelevant. Even me who has to translate everything, have noticed that an admin said that the focus should be on the sex leagues (penis, vagina). This note of the admins is permanently ignored. Words are always being created that ignore gender. The note came before 15 or 20 pages.

Ruku said:
And Plueshtiger, this thread is 34 pages long because over half of it is wasted on the same baseless excuses again and again against this keep being repeated because people are too lazy to read at all or willfully choose to ignore what is said and the facts having to be kept thrown against them. Time wasted that could go to actual discussion.

And if wikis work or not is not subject of this thread, please stay on topic.

You say it and with your last sentence you prove this very well. You should see for yourself how it came to the Wiki discussion and that it belongs to the topic. Mutisija has referred to the Wiki and I have expressed myself. If it would be as easy as Mutisija says, then the admins could have taken 2 words and the wiki to it and finished. The whole discussion about 35 pages would be unnecessary. Discuss the question before you exhort others, or ask.

As you hopefully noticed, I have at least thought and offered alternatives to -morph, although I do not like Andro because of the non-translatability. I am willing to make concessions other than others here. Something else. I have nothing against Andro and Gyno, as they sound good, but in the combination with Morph I do not like them, and they do not meet the admin guidelines.

Other alternatives: Gynomale, Androfemale, Androgirl, Gynoboy
However, these alternatives do not convince me. However, the boy and girl variant have a good sound.

Mutisija said:
we have literally spent pages upon pages going through different alternatives and so far andromorph/gynomorph are best.

What about Gyno Male, Gyno Boy, Andro Female, Andro Girl, Gynomale, Gynoboy, Androfemale, Androgirl?

This is a far better alternative to Morph for me, because they combine both body shape and gender. Morph is a bad choice. Apart from that, I have not seen a list of all the suggestions that were made.

PlüschTiger, the lead admin is German afaik and fwiw even they'll probably respond to you with its an english site. Not to mention you're committing the "if it was only" fallacy. Thats a false dilemma, its irrelevant.

Furthermore you clearly have failed to understand the entire discussion that the thread has gone through and I implore you to go re-read it before saying were all wrong.

Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with the word Morph. It means the same as form, we could also use Androform(ic) and Gynoform(ic) Please understand that there is no functional difference between them. Lastly there is no point when the admins said that the new tags must be genital focused, and in fact if anything the discussion in the thread points to the exact opposite of that concept.

GDelscribe said:
PlüschTiger, the lead admin is German afaik and fwiw even they'll probably respond to you with its an english site. Not to mention you're committing the "if it was only" fallacy. Thats a false dilemma, its irrelevant.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, and I'm still leaning for Gynomorph and Andromorph, I would just like to point out that False Dilemma is when someone falsely assumes that there are only two possibilities, and that because one is not true, the other must be, ignoring any other possibilities that, if noticed, would show that both could be false. An example is "you're either with the war or you're with the terrorists", or "you're either lying or you're crazy". Another is "You just insulted me! Or are you calling me a liar!"

You know how to cite, so use the function too, so I can see your answer, is that difficult for you and the others?

You know I have to translate everything I have to translate and use words which are not even in the dictionary, which is really very fair. I take 1-2 hours to translate what I write of google and change it again and again to make it understandable, since Google and you do not understand our colloquial language.

GDelscribe said:
Furthermore you clearly have failed to understand the entire discussion that the thread has gone through and I implore you to go re-read it before saying were all wrong.

The beginning of the discussion was offensive tags, which offend (Dickgirl and Cuntboy). Should I be wrong you can be so nice to enlighten me. Strangely, my reference to the possible offensive effect of the two words is being ignored right now. Why?

You do from me demand that I read 35 pages. I who needs to translate everything? So I have to look at how many here, the only users who have really seriously tried to constructively co-operate, have been ignored. What should the proposal? Was the racist, or trump method?

In addition, I have never claimed that all wrong, I have only pointed to facts and arguments. One fact is that the two words are too general in meaning as one can take them for something as special as a gender.

GDelscribe said:
Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with the word Morph. It means the same as form, we could also use Androform(ic) and Gynoform(ic) Please understand that there is no functional difference between them.

I have already said how it is with us with a normal word for hermaphrodite. Even if you do not want to hear it, the rest of mankind does not speak English and does not know the translation of the words. Have you ever asked a draftsman or people? The rest of mankind only reads Morph = freak, monster, miscarriage.

What if I feel attacked? Do you want to make fun of me just because PlüschTiger has small breasts? I am male, not intersex, but one of the 50% men with more breast than normal. (Dickgirl ?, Gyno ?, Andro? Freak?) PlushTiger has little Gynomorph tits? Do you think about online times, who sits on the other side and argues? I've already noticed that you like to infer with Admins.

Do this however cease to want to force your favorites by force! 20 are against it, 13 for it. I'm not the only one who says that that word combination makes no sense. My alternatives are not even addressed or considered. Alternatives to which I would be willing to agree, even if they do not quite please me. There is no list of proposals that have been made.

To make you clear with whom you are talking about, something from my everyday life. While you are thinking about what you masturbate, I write online with 4-5 other people here in Germany and 2-3 of them are suicidal. 1 woman, she was: almost killed, almost raped, premature birth, miscarriage, 2 times her child was abducted and it is not yet there again, the list I could go on for a long time and this is only 1 case.

Do not pretend that it is all about just trying to find a good word as a substitute. There are a few who are just trying to make their imagination, no matter what others want or think. Before you ever reproach me or the same, just tell me a few words about my suggestions.

GDelscribe said:
Lastly there is no point when the admins said that the new tags must be genital focused, and in fact if anything the discussion in the thread points to the exact opposite of that concept.

Did you see a statement from the admins, against this statement? I do not, so it can not be quite so wrong. If I am so wrong, an admin already said something, because one or two have, in the past, directly after me gave comments (when I gave these hints before). This I formulate it differently, the sex should be recognizable in the name. Apart from this, I have already weeks ago the admins here openly asked to name rules to which we can all orient ourselves. As far as I know, to date, none have been published.

PlüschTiger said:
Did you see a statement from the admins, against this statement? I do not, so it can not be quite so wrong. If I am so wrong, an admin already said something, because one or two have, in the past, directly after me gave comments (when I gave these hints before). This I formulate it differently, the sex should be recognizable in the name. Apart from this, I have already weeks ago the admins here openly asked to name rules to which we can all orient ourselves. As far as I know, to date, none have been published.

In my experience, unless pointing out personal opinion, admins don't give direct guidelines out without a consensus at their level that something needs to be handled a particular way. This thread has (mostly) been self-moderating fairly well so it's probable they've chosen to let it develop without interference. It's also possible that there isn't a consensus at their level yet.

That said, there's nothing wrong with taking either approach: genital-focus or body-focus. However, a number of people (presumably with personal experience or direct secondhand knowledge) have stated that describing non-binary people using their genitals is something they find offensive. (That was a big part of argument to change away from dickgirl and cuntboy.) So most have been trying to figure out terms that don't directly refer to that as primary descriptor.

PlüschTiger said:
You know how to cite, so use the function too, so I can see your answer, is that difficult for you and the others?

Scrolling down isn't that difficult either.

PlüschTiger said:
You know I have to translate everything I have to translate and use words which are not even in the dictionary, which is really very fair. I take 1-2 hours to translate what I write of google and change it again and again to make it understandable, since Google and you do not understand our colloquial language.

We all understand this fact. It changes nothing. The site is an English site, and you agreed to this when you registered.

PlüschTiger said:
The beginning of the discussion was offensive tags, which offend (Dickgirl and Cuntboy). Should I be wrong you can be so nice to enlighten me. Strangely, my reference to the possible offensive effect of the two words is being ignored right now. Why?

Because it's an English-speaking site. Whether something is offensive in German is irrelevant.

PlüschTiger said:
You do from me demand that I read 35 pages. I who needs to translate everything? So I have to look at how many here, the only users who have really seriously tried to constructively co-operate, have been ignored. What should the proposal? Was the racist, or trump method?

It's not racist. You can't expect us to cater to every language, especially when you already agreed to join an English-speaking site. This isn't a country. It's a website. It's someone's property. Technically speaking, your access to the site, as well as everyone else's access, including mine, is a privilege, not a right.

PlüschTiger said:
In addition, I have never claimed that all wrong, I have only pointed to facts and arguments. One fact is that the two words are too general in meaning as one can take them for something as special as a gender.

They already have objective definitions. There is no ambiguity.

PlüschTiger said:
I have already said how it is with us with a normal word for hermaphrodite. Even if you do not want to hear it, the rest of mankind does not speak English and does not know the translation of the words. Have you ever asked a draftsman or people? The rest of mankind only reads Morph = freak, monster, miscarriage.

And "fanny" is a swear word in the UK meaning "vagina". Should we change fanny_pack too? Pussy is also a swear word. Should we change that? While we're at it, I hate scat_porn. Should we remove that just because it offends me? Hahaha, NO!

PlüschTiger said:
What if I feel attacked? Do you want to make fun of me just because PlüschTiger has small breasts? I am male, not intersex, but one of the 50% men with more breast than normal. (Dickgirl ?, Gyno ?, Andro? Freak?) PlushTiger has little Gynomorph tits? Do you think about online times, who sits on the other side and argues? I've already noticed that you like to infer with Admins.

That would make you male. If someone mistagged it, you could change it to male. Nice try, but I'm a male with the skeletal structure of a female and mannerisms stereotypically found in women, and yet I'm still male, not an emaciated dickgirl.

PlüschTiger said:
Do this however cease to want to force your favorites by force! 20 are against it, 13 for it. I'm not the only one who says that that word combination makes no sense. My alternatives are not even addressed or considered. Alternatives to which I would be willing to agree, even if they do not quite please me. There is no list of proposals that have been made.

Your Appeal to Popularity won't work here. Popularity does not imply reason.

PlüschTiger said:
To make you clear with whom you are talking about, something from my everyday life. While you are thinking about what you masturbate, I write online with 4-5 other people here in Germany and 2-3 of them are suicidal. 1 woman, she was: almost killed, almost raped, premature birth, miscarriage, 2 times her child was abducted and it is not yet there again, the list I could go on for a long time and this is only 1 case.

I don't masturbate, and the idea of me doing so nauseates me. Not all of us are here for porn.

Cool story bro. I have a family actively trying to drive me to suicide to avoid getting blood on their hands, I actually WAS a victim of Corrective Rape, my cousin almost died because her blood type caused her to be born too early and she weighed 1 pound, my mother has had a miscarriage and wishes it could have been me, and I'm stuck in a house I can't leave because my father is my boss and I can't drive, meaning I can't go anywhere nobody knows me and therefore won't turn me down for a job just because I'm Autistic. And guess what? None of that means a damn thing, because the site doesn't have to change itself just because something happens to trigger me, and it doesn't have to change for you either.

PlüschTiger said:
Do not pretend that it is all about just trying to find a good word as a substitute. There are a few who are just trying to make their imagination, no matter what others want or think. Before you ever reproach me or the same, just tell me a few words about my suggestions.

I think your suggestions are even more vague, since they leave it ambiguous whether it's a woman with a dick or a man with a vagina. This causes people to have to use three different tags to search, half of the maximum amount possible.

PlüschTiger said:
Did you see a statement from the admins, against this statement? I do not, so it can not be quite so wrong. If I am so wrong, an admin already said something, because one or two have, in the past, directly after me gave comments (when I gave these hints before). This I formulate it differently, the sex should be recognizable in the name. Apart from this, I have already weeks ago the admins here openly asked to name rules to which we can all orient ourselves. As far as I know, to date, none have been published.

And now we've added Appeal to Ignorance to the list. Just because the admins haven't been known to specifically challenge you, that doesn't mean they're automatically for you either. If they answer, then whatever they decide goes, but until then, you play by the same rules we do.

We haven't made an inch of progress past the original problem here.

The goal of this exercise is to find suitable replacements for tags that specify gender and genitals in one tag. The goal is to remove both of those elements from the tags while still providing all of the relevant information. We've been spinning on terms to try and do that, and everyone sees the same issue, which is that they're missing information. People against them see that as a problem. People for them see it as a problem that's solvable or irrelevant. But everyone knows its a problem.

The reason this is so intractable is that we're fighting to keep the meaning of the thing we want to remove. Basically we're asking the question "how can we say both dick and girl in a tag without saying dickgirl?" I haven't been convinced yet that we can. Because even if we choose esoteric synonyms, eventually everyone gets used to them, the meanings take root, and someone gets annoyed by the now clear meanings. Seems like the problem really has less to do with anyone's gripe with the words, and more to do with a gripe over what it is people want to see. You search for a dickgirl because you want a girl with a dick. That's really easy to figure out. It's not demeaning; It's direct. And in every language, we always try to be less direct to be less polite. "I was (past) just (minimize) wondering if maybe (uncertainty) I could possibly (uncertainty) have some of those chips? (non-aggressive questioning inflection)..." But when you're busy looking for porn you don't want to have to type personwithtraditionallyfemininebodyshapecoupledwithgenitalsthatindicatehigheruterinetestosteroneexposure. And if people here totally reliably read, understood, and followed wiki articles, we'd never have a mistag, rather than having whole projects aimed at fixing thousands of them. If we want to solve the problem, we have to focus on being clear.

Keep it on topic.

When everything is problematic, the best solution is likely the least problematic one.

^ I thought the rule of compromise would say that the best solution is the one that makes everyone equally unhappy?

I was originally against the idea of these tags being replaced, but after seeing the amount of hatred by artists was going into them, I adjusted my attitude. Just like notnobody had said, we need to create a tag for dickgirl and cuntboy that is both accurate and non-offensive.

I support the idea of aliasing dickgirl to "gynomorph" and "penis", and aliasing cuntboy to "andromorph" and "vagina".

Gynomorph -> "Female Body"
Andromorph -> "Male Body"

Faux-Pa said:
I support the idea of aliasing dickgirl to "gynomorph" and "penis", and aliasing cuntboy to "andromorph" and "vagina".

Can't have the penis/vagina implications because it's possible to see though clothing the signs of what's there without it being clear enough to be tagged directly (cameltoe for instance).