Siral_Exan said:
We are trying to fix one set, the intersex tags. The stigma doesn't need to be on the site if it can be changed! (heavy emphasis there), and just because it does exist and works doesn't mean it should stay. Plenty of negative tags have been aliased away, we intend to make cuntboy and dickgirl follow suit.

Coward shouldn't exist as a tag either, as one person may see the fight-or-flight response, and another may see actual cowardice.

The stigma placed on any word only persists because people let it persist. As long as it still bothers them, it will never go away. The sooner people ignore the stigma and parse a word or phrase based on its definition alone, the sooner issues like this stop happening.

As terms, there is nothing functionally wrong with dickgirl and cuntboy. They describe a specific thing well enough and they are relatively well-known. Before this thread, I have never once heard of anyone having any issue with these terms.

Capitulating to the weakness of a vocal minority is not the answer. The world is cruel, life isn't fair. They need to harden up and endure it. Like I said in forum #211684, if offensiveness is their only argument, they don't have an argument.

Well, we're willing to make an argument. So what's yours?

BlueDingo said:
As terms, there is nothing functionally wrong with dickgirl and cuntboy. They describe a specific thing well enough and they are relatively well-known.

That's my argument. Do you have an argument that isn't feelings based?

We are arguing that we can make a positive tag name to replace the current ones. The primary reason is there will be no negative effect (presumably), and the secondary is it can stop future arguments over gender naming and maybe even stop current ones. If you want proof that there is arguments on this topic that effects users and etc., here is the biggest one by a landslide. The tertiary is it can, very thinly, benefit the site's visage under the argument that we changed for what may be positive reasons, whereas other sites do not or have changed for negative reasons.

That is my three, you can ask the rest for more, and there is more, which I do not have right to say because I don't assume.

Ah yes, Mikhaila. That's an issue of "girly cuntboy vs. flat_chested female", not whether or not cuntboy is an appropriate term to use for male-looking characters with female genitalia. I thought we were discussing the latter.

BlueDingo said:
Ah yes, Mikhaila. That's an issue of "feminine cuntboy vs. flat-chested female", not whether or not cuntboy is an appropriate term to use for male-looking characters with female genitalia. I thought we were discussing the latter.

Argue that against TWYS. This argument is not that... Like I said, we're trying to make a positive tag name. Did you not read that?

I read it. However, no word you replace cuntboy and dickgirl with would be positive. They would be neutral. A compliment is positive, a general term for something is neutral and can be considered positive or negative depending on how it's used.

BlueDingo said:
That's my argument. Do you have an argument that isn't feelings based?

Blue that is not a valid argument because we are not changing the functionality and other reasons have been stated before other then just that its "well known" vulgar use of the term. But you choose to ignore to continue opposing for the sake of opposing.

BlueDingo said:
I read it. However, no word you replace cuntboy and dickgirl with would be positive. They would be neutral. A compliment is positive, a general term for something is neutral and can be considered positive or negative depending on how it's used.

Neutral is a positive when compared to a negative. A flip of a coin is better than a 100% chance negative, metaphorically speaking.

Also, IYO it is neutral, IMO it is positive. Should we be glass half full, or glass half empty?

BlueDingo said:
Do you have an argument that isn't feelings based?

Why do you require one?
This has been said many times already, but... if a tag can be improved, there's absolutely no reason not to do so. Even if it only bothers a small percentage of the userbase.

'course, so far I haven't seen any suggestions that'd be an improvement over what we're using. So there's that. I'm not sure if a better alternative even exists. If there is one, we probably would've found it by now. So it seems like we've stuck using the current terms.

Ruku said:
Blue that is not a valid argument because we are not changing the functionality and other reasons have been stated before other then just that its "well known" vulgar use of the term. But you choose to ignore to continue opposing for the sake of opposing.

My stance is clear: If it ain't broken, don't fix it. GDelscribe is trying to fix something that isn't broken and creating a lot of disruption in doing so.

EDIT: Slightly off-topic: If male and/or female became slurs or considered too offensive, would you advocate for those to be changed as well? Some people do in fact find them offensive, just so you know.

Siral_Exan said:
Neutral is a positive when compared to a negative. A flip of a coin is better than a 100% chance negative, metaphorically speaking.

More positive doesn't necessarily mean positive, and those terms by definition are not negative. Attaching a negative stigma to a neutral term or repeatedly using a neutral term in a negative way doesn't suddenly make that term negative.

Ironically, the few who would want this term removed because of the power they believe it has over them are the ones giving the word that very power they despise. Like I said before, stigmas only persist because people let them. If they have an issue with a term that most people don't, that's their problem and they need to change, not us.

well, let's loop that back to you: the change happens, and the people who it negatively effects have to accept it because it is their problem, and they need to change, not us. Just because someone doesn't want to change doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, and it is stigma regardless because people are always offended. An absolute that can be reduced if changed positively.

Siral_Exan said:
well, let's loop that back to you: the change happens, and the people who it negatively effects have to accept it because it is their problem, and they need to change, not us. Just because someone doesn't want to change doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, and it is stigma regardless because people are always offended. An absolute that can be reduced if changed...

Except stigmas and perceived offensiveness are not absolutes. Before WW2, jap wasn't a slur and nobody had a problem with it because it was simply an abbreviation for japanese people. After WW2, it was considered a slur because of the way it was used in Pro-War advertisements, meaning it gained a stigma. The racial slur honky was once offensive to its target demographic, white people. It eventually lost all of its power after white people stopped giving a shit about it and now hardly anyone is offended by it, meaning it lost its stigma. The complaining few can remove the stigmas on dickgirl and cuntboy just like white people did with honky, thereby rendering those words powerless. The question is, do they want to do that, or continue complaining?

BlueDingo said:
My stance is clear: If it ain't broken, don't fix it. GDelscribe is trying to fix something that isn't broken and creating a lot of disruption in doing so.

THat honestly is a flawed method, we would still be in the stone age if humanity really followed that method of operation. Also what disruption do you speak of, this is just a name change not a functional change, name changes that again as stated before have been done before a dozen times on large tags without suffering any negative impact. so again what do you have going for you other then tradition?

Also it rather funny that you are keep passing us off as a minority when the stance on these terms are in common agreement as being vulgar in the general public, you are talking tens of millions of people irl and online that do agree that their use is almost always vulgar.

Blue if you cannot give any factual reason as to how this name change could negatively effect the site and its search mechanism then you really dont have any basis in talking on this thread other just spaming and derailing the topic.

Also i can only say for certainty on my own opinion but im pretty sure most in support are basing their opinion for this also on the actual greater usage of these terms outside of e621 rather then just simple stigma.

You know what, yea: prove how we can be wrong, with facts and/or evidence.

BlueDingo said:
Except stigmas and perceived offensiveness are not absolutes. Before WW2, jap wasn't a slur and nobody had a problem with it because it was simply an abbreviation for japanese people. After WW2, it was considered a slur because of the way it was used in Pro-War advertisements, meaning it gained a stigma. The racial slur honky was once offensive to its target demographic, white people. It eventually lost all of its power after white people stopped giving a shit about it and now hardly anyone is offended by it, meaning it lost its stigma. The complaining few can remove the stigmas on dickgirl and cuntboy just like white people did with honky, thereby rendering those words powerless. The question is, do they want to do that, or continue complaining?

No, they want to continue complaining, because the people who complain that 'cuntboy' and 'dickgirl' tags could be improved (read; offensive) are what could be termed as 'Tag Justice Warriors', and live their lives on the premise that every tag is offensive, and every tag must be pointed out as such.

Next, we'll be seeing these same people making threads about how the male and female tags should be changed to cis, and cuntboy/dickgirl/herm/maleherm should be changed to non-binary. Then we'll see threads about how male/male, female/female, intersex/intersex, herm/herm, whatever/whatever is inherently flawed and a form of gender-slurs, and should be aliased to 'x identity' to suit their will, because as we all know, the vocal 5% always out weight the silent 95%.

Also, pointing to a definition of 'slur' and then saying to put tag after it, is NOT explaining what exactly a 'slur tag' is.

The very name of this thread is 'slur tags', but involves people talking about how cuntboy, and dickgirl, should be changed to something that sounds like it was created by a liberal arts student that just completed a gender studies class. What exact part of 'cuntboy' and 'dickgirl' is considered a slur, when most LGBTQSABCDEFG people don't consider it a slur, even MtFs and FtMs, like Buck Angel, use the terms to describe themselves [see: American Cuntboy].

I'm going to need to see some evidence other than 'this term makes me feel bad, even though it doesn't apply to me, but if I don't like it, then I'm sure people whom it could be applied to, won't like it, and even if they do like it, I still don't like it, so it should be changed'.

To qoute a shade-of-blue feral deer; "Citation needed".

Marflebark said:
Next, we'll be seeing these same people making threads about how the male and female tags should be changed to cis, and cuntboy/dickgirl/herm/maleherm should be changed to non-binary. Then we'll see threads about how male/male, female/female, intersex/intersex, herm/herm, whatever/whatever is inherently flawed and a form of gender-slurs, and should be aliased to 'x identity' to suit their will, because as we all know, the vocal 5% always out weight the silent 95%.

that's a scary thought. yet...i wouldn't say such a negative progression of things over time is entirely out of the question. well, unless such a negative progression is halted before it can't be stopped.

"'Tag Justice Warriors'"

ugh, please no.

treos said:
that's a scary thought. yet...i wouldn't say such a negative progression of things over time is entirely out of the question. well, unless such a negative progression is halted before it can't be stopped.

That's called the Slippery Slope argument. Come on, I know you know better than to use that. Treos, I think you're a good guy, don't make me say things like this.

It's funny how most of the people criticizing this as overblown are using straw-manning, overblown arguments themselves (I mean.. "live their lives on the premise that every tag is offensive"... did you even think about that sentence?).

I guess GDelscribe set the precedent for that in this thread, though. If you start stretching the truth to serve your agenda and making unsupported non-trivial assertions, it's hardly surprising if your opponents respond in kind and you end up with exactly this kind of trainwreck.

savageorange said:
It's funny how most of the people criticizing this as overblown are using straw-manning, overblown arguments themselves (I mean.. "live their lives on the premise that every tag is offensive"... did you even think about that sentence?).

I guess GDelscribe set the precedent for that in this thread, though. If you start stretching the truth to serve your agenda and making unsupported non-trivial assertions, it's hardly surprising if your opponents respond in kind and you end up with exactly this kind of trainwreck.

Even as someone supportive of transsexuality, I'm pretty disappointed myself in all this. It does feel like it's less about actually trying to improve anything or take consideration for others, and more like "You do what I say you do, because I feel you should" or attention.

Clawdragons said:
That's called the Slippery Slope argument. Come on, I know you know better than to use that. Treos, I think you're a good guy, don't make me say things like this.

Slippery slopes have happened in history, numerous times, hence the origin of the concept. To assume that such a slippery slope will happen is a logical fallacy, but to insist that because it's a slippery slope that it cannot happen is also a logical fallacy. The phrases "downward spiral" and "things snowballed from there" come to mind. That said I would like to hope such doesn't happen.

savageorange said:
It's funny how most of the people criticizing this as overblown are using straw-manning, overblown arguments themselves (I mean.. "live their lives on the premise that every tag is offensive"... did you even think about that sentence?).

I guess GDelscribe set the precedent for that in this thread, though. If you start stretching the truth to serve your agenda and making unsupported non-trivial assertions, it's hardly surprising if your opponents respond in kind and you end up with exactly this kind of trainwreck.

I dunno really how you got that impression when I was only responding to literally 8 users whos only argument at the time were basically "you're being too pc this isnt a slur sit down and shut up."

I also dont appreciate the insinuation.

404_ArtNotFound said:
Even as someone supportive of transsexuality, I'm pretty disappointed myself in all this. It does feel like it's less about actually trying to improve anything or take consideration for others, and more like "You do what I say you do, because I feel you should" or attention.

As a nonbinary individual who's girlfriend is trans I'd say I have a very large stake in the reasoning behind doing this. This has nothing to do with "you do what I say."

This is literally those words make myself, her, and countless other trans individuals very uncomfortable. And again I have to bring up https://e621.net/user/show/184594

https://e621.net/post_tag_history?user_id=184594

This is an artist who wanted their art and characters not to be tagged with cuntboy. Because its derogatory and disgusting. They remove the tag and get banned for it because they're breaking site rules. It all stemmed simply from them not wanting to be referred to as a cuntboy.

The fact that people are continuing to defend it for any reason this many pages in is absolutely ridiculous to me, so I apologize if I come off as disgenuine.

GDelscribe said:
The fact that people are continuing to defend it for any reason this many pages in is absolutely ridiculous to me, so I apologize if I come off as disgenuine.

I think this may be due to you being perceived as having a holier-than-thou/self-righteousness attitude. When you bring up the morality of the issue, you can come off as morally superior, which would imply that those that disagree with you are inferior. Morality isn't the main issue here, the proposal of new tags is. You want to makes some changes for reasons you think are good. That is commendable, but it can be annoying when you keep mentioning those reasons. I acknowledge that making people feel better is a positive effect, but its not really something that concerns me. What I care about is the efficiency and quality of this site, so I would like to ask that we stay focused on the task.

I still believe male_with_pussy and female_with_penis are the best candidates. They are extremely simple and with little ambiguity, I doubt that many people would require further explanation besides the distinction with herm.
My second best picks would be intersex_male and intersex_female. They are fairly simple and informative, yet they could be misunderstood.
I should also mention that vagentleman and phallady are growing on me. While the puns can be irksome, their meaning can be easily understood with minimal effort.

JAKXXX3 said:
I think this may be due to you being perceived as having a holier-than-thou/self-righteousness attitude. When you bring up the morality of the issue, you can come off as morally superior, which would imply that those that disagree with you are inferior. Morality isn't the main issue here, the proposal of new tags is. You want to makes some changes for reasons you think are good. That is commendable, but it can be annoying when you keep mentioning those reasons. I acknowledge that making people feel better is a positive effect, but its not really something that concerns me. What I care about is the efficiency and quality of this site, so I would like to ask that we stay focused on the task.

I still believe male_with_pussy and female_with_penis are the best candidates. They are extremely simple and with little ambiguity, I doubt that many people would require further explanation besides the distinction with herm.
My second best picks would be intersex_male and intersex_female. They are fairly simple and informative, yet they could be misunderstood.
I should also mention that vagentleman and phallady are growing on me. While the puns can be irksome, their meaning can be easily understood with minimal effort.

I still say that including "Male" or "Female" on the tags is a bad idea, hence the suggestions before of masculine_with_pussy or feminine_with_penis tags.

Marflebark said:
No, they want to continue complaining, because the people who complain that 'cuntboy' and 'dickgirl' tags could be improved (read; offensive) are what could be termed as 'Tag Justice Warriors', and live their lives on the premise that every tag is offensive, and every tag must be pointed out as such.

It's not a SJW issue, it's more of a, rather not offend character owners. Essentially, cuntboy and dickgirl can sound like one is calling the character a cunt or a dick. I'm not sure if you have a fursona but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want your character being tagged something like "this_guy_is_a_cunt" or "wow_this_guy_is_a_dick"(I'm not calling you this I am just using this as an example).
I mean we can always change the male and female tags to dickman and cuntgirl. Or we can tag donkey characters as "ass".

There is ABSOLUTELY no intent to bring SJW into e621, if that were the case 50% of the stuff on e621 would end up deleted. cis will never be a tag either, because first of all cis is a dumb thing invented by SJWs, and because it'd apply to 90% of all images.

Trust me, I am one of the most anti-SJW people you can meet, but I don't think we should be calling characters cunts or dicks. :v

Chaser said:
CIS will never be a tag either, because first of all CIS is a dumb thing invented by SJWs,

It's not an acronym.

Chaser said:

There is ABSOLUTELY no intent to bring SJW into e621, if that were the case 50% of the stuff on e621 would end up deleted.

This in a shellnut, theres absolutely no intention to do any of that. I'm just trying to push for something a little more respectful.

_{Also yeah like Forbiddenfruit said, Cis actually isnt an acronym, it was made by a german proffessor discussing medical terminology regarding trans individiduals. All it means is "the same as it was made with" or "on this side of" so basically it means the exact opposite of trans.}

ForbiddenFruit said:
It's not an acronym.

GDelscribe said:
This in a shellnut, theres absolutely no intention to do any of that. I'm just trying to push for something a little more respectful.

_{Also yeah like Forbiddenfruit said, Cis actually isnt an acronym, it was made by a german proffessor discussing medical terminology regarding trans individiduals. All it means is "the same as it was made with" or "on this side of" so basically it means the exact opposite of trans.}

Then that makes it even dumber. Why have something that looks like a acronym and it not be a acronym. :v
Either way, fixed.

Furrin_Gok said:
I still say that including "Male" or "Female" on the tags is a bad idea, hence the suggestions before of masculine_with_pussy or feminine_with_penis tags.

Those tags don't sit well with me since 'masculine' and 'feminine' are fairly general descriptors of something's relation to gender. I would think that they would most often be used to describe appearance, but it is also applied to things like 'masculine' behaviour or 'feminine' clothing. 'Male' and 'female' would be much more precise, in this context it would specifically refer to the visual secondary sexual characteristics used to define cboys and dgirls.

I could accept 'masculine_with_pussy' or 'feminine_with_penis', though the wiki entry would likely require a disclaimer specifying that the tags only refer to the visual physical characteristics or something similar. Though I imagine the current tags already have such disclaimers.

Chaser said:
Then that makes it even dumber. Why have something that looks like a acronym and it not be a acronym. :v
Either way, fixed.

But it doesn't look like an acronym. It isn't capitalised. There is no 'CIS', only 'cis'. 'Cis' in context is just short for 'cisgender' and it comes from the same 'rules' as cis-trans isomerism in chemistry and cisalpine in geography. The only people who think it's capitalised are uninformed. Regardless, I know I'm getting off topic, I just raise an eyebrow whenever I come across someone who thinks it's an acronym for 'Comfortable In Skin', and that it's a 'made-up term' (unlike all those other words we just pick off the naturally occurring Word Tree like 'elbow') when, well, they've clearly picked up misinformation.

ForbiddenFruit said:
But it doesn't look like an acronym. It isn't capitalised. There is no 'CIS', only 'cis'. 'Cis' in context is just short for 'cisgender' and it comes from the same 'rules' as cis-trans isomerism in chemistry and cisalpine in geography. The only people who think it's capitalised are uninformed. Regardless, I know I'm getting off topic, I just raise an eyebrow whenever I come across someone who thinks it's an acronym for 'Comfortable In Skin', and that it's a 'made-up term' (unlike all those other words we just pick off the naturally occurring Word Tree like 'elbow') when, well, they've clearly picked up misinformation.

ELBOW: Elongated Limb Bending Of Whim.
Well, that last bit was a bit of a stretch but I think my point is made: Anything can be made into an acronym, but doesn't mean it's meant to be one.

I'm done sitting around waiting for this to resolve itself.

I'd personally like for users to stop getting baited into fruitless dramas and receiving unnecessary records. We've already lost one artist's works because they couldn't stand the term cuntboy (the artist was also temporarily banned - score +1 for e621 publicity). Yes, their behavior was rude - they should have just submitted a takedown request and moved on without vandalizing tags.

But the point still stands, we now have a documented case of e621 failing to serve its purpose as an art archive because of this issue. If it had been an artist upset with our TWYS policy, fine - we would have told them to shove it, like we did to Purplekecleon. But this was somebody who would have had no problem with the site otherwise, had it not been for our terminology.

and dickgirl are slang terms. For our purposes, they are extremely useful, descriptive tags. From the outside looking in, however, they seem unnecessary and rude. To put it into perspective, imagine we decided that we would now tag all races by their respective racial slurs. For users who take offense to cuntboy/dickgirl, THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

To anyone who has one or more of the following opinions:

• Artists/character owners should ignore it/deal with it.
• So-and-so user sounds self-righteous, so we shouldn't listen to them.
• We shouldn't cave in to SJW demands - what's to stop them from changing another tag?

Get out.

Quit wasting our time. I don't care how long you've been hanging around your friends across the pond or how much the internet has desensitized you. Almost everywhere in the real world - surprise - if you call your mother a cunt, she probably won't like it.

And no, e621 isn't going to start caving in to SJW demands over any other tag. We're not stupid. As far as I know, cuntboy and dickgirl are the only major descriptor tags we use slang for (other than pussy, but that's another story).

The tags are going to change, now it's just a matter of determining what new, equally descriptive tags we should use. THIS is where our efforts should be focused on. We are PAST the point of discussing whether or not they are offensive. They are. We don't need an admin ruling to determine this.

tl;dr get busy deciding what we're aliasing these to.

Knotty_Curls said:
We've already lost one artist's works because they couldn't stand the term cuntboy.

Cuntboy

and dickgirl are slang terms. For our purposes, they are extremely useful, descriptive tags. From the outside looking in, however, they seem unnecessary and rude.

Quit wasting our time. I don't care how long you've been hanging around your friends across the pond or how much the internet has desensitized you. Almost everywhere in the real world - surprise - if you call your mother a cunt, she probably won't like it.

And no, e621 isn't going to start caving in to SJW demands over any other tag.

We are PAST the point of discussing whether or not they are offensive. They are.

So you lost one artist, one who very few, if any, have ever heard of, because he/she is too immature to deal with the real world, and made an issue out of nothing.

Yes, cuntboy and dickgirl are rude, FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN. Is this site meant for those FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN? For anyone who has ever spent more than five minutes looking at internet porn, they know that cuntboy and dickgirl are simply for convenience, and are not to be taken as a personal insult. Are you seriously telling me there exist people who think the terms cuntboy and dickgirl were created out of spite???

You've ALREADY caved-in to SJW demands by even taking this BULLSHIT seriously! Mark my words, in the very near-future, you'll be having the SAME EXACT DRAMA over "male," "female," "herm," "penis," "vagina," etc, etc, etc, all because some spoiled college kid thinks their safe space is the entire universe.

This is all just SUCH a fucking turn-off. SJWs in the furry fandom, who would have thought? At least I still have the BDSM community, until the SJWs decide that offends them too...

PS: Ban me, ignore me, whatever. I won't be back. I'm going to Rule34.xxx and not coming back...

No, we lost one artist because they wanted to enact some misguided tirade against the use of the tag instead of being helpful and actually contributing to this discussion. They were told about both this thread and the takedown system before they got suspended. A takedown wasn't submitted until after harassment via pm (towards me, as it always is) and after both a formal warning and several disregards in the comments.

Just because someone leaves doesn't mean the site is not better off.

ForbiddenFruit said:
It's not an acronym.

Actually, 'CIS' is an acronym for the 'Commonwealth of Independant States', a group of nations aligned to the Russian sphere of influence, and mostly are ex-Soviet states.

Now I can say 'that Poly Sci class six years ago actually paid off!'.

starscream59 said:
"a whole lot of crap and slippery rope fearmongering."

The real world you speak of starscream does not tolerate these terms. It would rather seem that your the one who cant actually deal with the consensus in the real world and among most staff here that the terms are in fact commonly vulgar.

As for the outside looking in, that is kinda shoot after as the site does have its image(post) archive setup for being accessible without having to login.

Chaser said:
first of all cis is a dumb thing invented by SJWs, and because it'd apply to 90% of all images.

"Cis" would violate TWYS for the same reason that "trans" would. We don't know a character's history. We can only say what they are now, not what they were born as.

So really it wouldn't apply to just about any image.

As for "cis" being dumb, well... A couple people have mentioned some stuff about it, so I'll not retread ground, but it mainly just exists as a language convenience. It's useful to have antonyms for words.

Honestly I don't see the problem with that. Fundamentally it's not different from having words for both "warm" and "cold". Sure, we could get by with using "not warm", if we had to, but why though? You lose precision, and depending on how a sentence is structured, you can lose clarity too.

Clawdragons said:
That's called the Slippery Slope argument. Come on, I know you know better than to use that. Treos, I think you're a good guy, don't make me say things like this.

well, it IS a fairly accurate description of the situation thus far.

"Come on, I know you know better than to use that. Treos, I think you're a good guy, don't make me say things like this."

this entire thread, right from the start, makes me mentally say this every time it gets revived. -_-

Clawdragons said:
What I used was a tactic called reductio ad absurdum. The gist of it is that if an absurd, clearly false result can be obtained from accepting a premise as true, that premise can't be true.

Read what I had written, then you know that it is not done with the comment.

Clawdragons said:
In this case, Delian's assertion that the significant element, which makes a tag good or bad, is information content. I tried to demonstrate that that was clearly not true.

You and he both seem to be focusing quite a bit on the length, and, yes, that is an element for why the tag is bad, but it is not the only element.

A tag needs several elements to be good:

• A tag needs to have either searching value or blacklisting value.
• A tag ought not be overly specific.
• A tag ought not be too subjective.
• A tag is better when it is easily comprehensible.
• A tag ought not to be derogatory or trollish.
• A tag should generally not be unnecessarily long.
• A tag should not be redundant.
• tags ought not cause too much work for users.

When looking at a tag, these are all factors to take into consideration. There might be some other factors as well.

If we look at the tag I proposed, we can see exactly how it fails. It is ridiculously long, but also, it is so specific that it will not be useful to anyone for searching or blacklisting. You could, theoretically, replace the tag with something smaller, but which means the same. Say, an acronym: ffswompwvpbap. The tag is reasonable in length now, but is incomprehensible, and still overly specific.

Your answer to mine irritates me a little. You acknowledge us and at the same time, you act as if we were wrong. And no I go not only after the length of the tag. I would have no problem with the "tag" female_anthro_pikachu or female_renamon, which would simplify a lot when searching.

You write yourself the "tag" also must be easy to understand, but that also means that you have to pack information in the "tag", which are easy to understand and many users know. Not only because of the point is your defense against Delian not understandable. The only thing I can say is the Delians focus, more on a deference to your list of factors. Even if you do not believe it, I find your factors which you call quite reasonable. You know as well as I that you can seldom meet all the factors in a "tag", as there are always factors which prevent that.

Clawdragons said:
Anyway! My point is this: This is how I think tags are judged, in reality. There are a number of factors, and a tag may be fine in some areas but problematic in others. Is masculine_intersex a better tag than pussy_male? Well, that's something we can try to examine, but NOT if we have completely different ideas about what makes a tag good. Delian was focusing exclusively on a factor that I do not think is relevant, so before we could even discuss which tag possibilities are better than others, we had to at least try to come to an agreement on what criteria to use.

Just as a hint: This is page 24 and you know how the others are sure this is the wrong forum place, right? At least after what I could translate. Do not you think it's about 20 pages a little late to talk about rules and factors? You are right, they are helpful and not false.

By the way, there is a saying from the computer area: "Change nothing that works". So why is the discussion about "cuntboy" and "dickgirl" at all? The only thing that disturbs me is that they are translated into the translator pornographically, so they are age-specific. The word "cuntboy" (independent of the true meaning) I like the look well, I know this is unimportant, I just wanted to mention. :-)

I disagree with you, although that is not true, because you yourself have it in your factors. One of the most important factors for me is that a "tag" must also be understood by many, also by people who are not English, as the main language. If you now take the feminine_intersex as "tag", then you also in English-speaking people only ?????, also re-writes your factors, 1. he is too general, 2. he is misunderstood, 3. he used to Gender segregation, a subjective optical character trait, and so on. I have often been unable to translate the problem of Google and co words because they do not exist in the database.

I make two suggestions:

1. Leave the tags as they are

2. simply replace the existing words with slightly less obscene and less age-specific data. (Dick to penis, girl to female)

Example: penisfemale pussymale
The meaning should be identical, but less obscene and age-related. Everyone who knew the other terms will understand.

3. Since you absolutely want to change something, you could perhaps make it like this:

Dickgirl = top_female-bottom_male (tfbm, tofeboma)
Cuntboy = top_male-bottom_female (tmbf, tomabofe)
Herm = top_female-bottom_herm (tfbh, tofebohe)
Maleherm = top_male-bottom_herm (tmbh, tomabohe)
Futa = top_female-bottom _ ?????? (Tfbf, tofebofu)

Yeah right. 3 is not really serious, but maybe someone likes it.

Knotty_Curls said:
The tags are going to change, now it's just a matter of determining what new, equally descriptive tags we should use.

I did not realize an admin ruling had been made on this.

Here I was under the impression it's still at the level of "if a better set of tags can be agreed on."

Wodahseht said:
I did not realize an admin ruling had been made on this.

https://e621.net/forum/show/197482

Wodahseht said:
Here I was under the impression it's still at the level of "if a better set of tags can be agreed on."

Isn't that technically the same Knotty said? Once we have a better set of tags we will change, that does imply it will be postponed until we have something better.
If that time is "never" it'd be quite sad but technically still true to the statement.

Marflebark said:
Actually, 'CIS' is an acronym for the 'Commonwealth of Independant States', a group of nations aligned to the Russian sphere of influence, and mostly are ex-Soviet states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Knotty_Curls said:
The tags are going to change, now it's just a matter of determining what new, equally descriptive tags we should use. THIS is where our efforts should be focused on. We are PAST the point of discussing whether or not they are offensive. They are. We don't need an admin ruling to determine this.

Are these your words, or those of the admins? You can not say it will be changed if there is no permission from the site operator.

starscream59 said:
You've ALREADY caved-in to SJW demands by even taking this BULLSHIT seriously! Mark my words, in the very near-future, you'll be having the SAME EXACT DRAMA over "male," "female," "herm," "penis," "vagina," etc, etc, etc, all because some spoiled college kid thinks their safe space is the entire universe.

This is a scenario which is quite possible. Every time, every trend brings its own embarrassment with and some has something against it. You only need to turn directional feminism, then you already suspect what awaits us. In the US you even want to sit with sprained legs, to ban a man in the train. In Germany, there was also an intensification of the laws, but (supposedly) almost meaningless, since the laws are so extensible that they are practically useless and do not change anything.

NotMeNotYou said:
https://e621.net/forum/show/197482

Isn't that technically the same Knotty said? Once we have a better set of tags we will change, that does imply it will be postponed until we have something better.
If that time is "never" it'd be quite sad but technically still true to the statement.

But can we have some input on that? It's been 24 pages and many months. There is another thread suggesting a change, only for it to be met with 'too early for this' and 'jumping the gun' (with no offense to Ratte or Claw intended - I'm just trying to highlight the fact that when a push is made, it's just rebuffed) - and with most of the people there opposing the change opposing any change, no less.

I do respect that it needs some consideration to maybe not tangle too much with herm (or that it entails un-knotting the overlap) and that does take time, but it feels like wandering blindfolded right now.

I'd prefer any new tag we use be as technical and non-slang as possible. It must also highlight body type and the fact that the character has the opposite genitalia.

That being said, the suggestions on forum #211402 (masculine/feminine_intersex) seem like they would work, provided we make the following changes:

• Ungroup herm tags from intersex, possibly create a new umbrella term nonbinary_gender.
• On the upload page, provide a list of all applicable gender tags to be added at the click of a button (a la FurAffinity, except multiple gender tags may be used), along with simple guidelines relating to TWYS and links to their respective Wiki pages.

I want to repeat that I'm tired of seeing users get records over this. I'm tired of seeing these arguments go nowhere.

As I said previously, nothing will change under the hood. You can still tag/search using cuntboy/dickgirl, or possibly new abbreviations. Nobody is forcing anybody to type out the new tags every time.

Knotty_Curls said:
I'd prefer any new tag we use be as technical and non-slang as possible. It must also highlight body type and the fact that the character has the opposite genitalia.

That being said, the suggestions on forum #211402 (masculine/feminine_intersex) seem like they would work, provided we make the following changes:

• Ungroup herm tags from intersex, possibly create a new umbrella term nonbinary_gender.
• On the upload page, provide a list of all applicable gender tags to be added at the click of a button (a la FurAffinity, except multiple gender tags may be used), along with simple guidelines relating to TWYS and links to their respective Wiki pages.

the problem with none-binary_sex is that it does cover pretty much everything that isnt binary(male/female) even genderless/neutrois. dualsex/dualgender would be more specific as having both and match with intersex in titleform for those between the binaries rather then having both.

And a drop down menu as FA has would be problematic for posts that depict multiple characters. unless theres already a solution to this.

PS: If a admin hasnt done this already, i would suggest adding a notice to the original thread post that concensus has already been reached that the tags will be changed in the forseeable future and is no longer under discussion and that the topic is now just pending on the proper naming and hierarchy structure considerations. Otherwise we will have these anti_change_warriors keep poping up taughting the same message that was already striked down pages ago

Knotty_Curls said:
I want to repeat that I'm tired of seeing users get records over this. I'm tired of seeing these arguments go nowhere.

As I said previously, nothing will change under the hood. You can still tag/search using cuntboy/dickgirl, or possibly new abbreviations. Nobody is forcing anybody to type out the new tags every time.

I do have to give my two cents on the pile.

Tags are simply technical tool to search and blacklist content on the site, it makes absolutely zero sense to get even small portion of users mad because of this, especially when there is a way to change it to something much more objective based and still use old slang words for search and blacklist purposes. And I have personally seen couple cases already where artists are taking down art from the site, breaking sites rules to get tags away and personally avoiding uploading art when artist clearly states they do not want their art to be used with those tags.

If someone is againts something like this, they can also just alias black_body -> n-word.

I do hope that this does get resolved quickly though.

Heh, this is still going on...

NotMeNotYou said:
Isn't that technically the same Knotty said? Once we have a better set of tags we will change, that does imply it will be postponed until we have something better.
If that time is "never" it'd be quite sad but technically still true to the statement.

True enough, but I meant in the site's standard "if a better option becomes available and won't cause significant issues then we'll do that" versus "we're changing it, pick something."

NotMeNotYou said:
https://e621.net/forum/show/197482

Missed that. But when skimming through 24 pages I guess it's easy to miss one post. Doesn't help that there is still very vocal discussion going on over whether they should be changed or left alone.

With a decision that they need to be changed, perhaps it's time for a new topic like "Official: cuntboy/dickgirl alternative tags discussion" with an up-front statement to that effect where focus can be shifted specifically to coming up with and weighing possibilities. With a new topic specific to that purpose and locking this one it should be easier to enforce staying on that topic instead of random jumps back to "I don't think we should."

JAKXXX3 said:
I still believe male_with_pussy and female_with_penis are the best candidates. They are extremely simple and with little ambiguity, I doubt that many people would require further explanation besides the distinction with herm.

Those are not feasible.
I'm convinced that the character owners would dislike those even more than the current tags. Intersex is defined as being outside the binary female/male, and calling them female_with_penis and male_with_pussy would feel like we're trying to pigeonhole them into the binary.

Not to mention that the posts would get mistagged as female and male.

Knotty_Curls said:
I'm done sitting around waiting for this to resolve itself.

I'd personally like for users to stop getting baited into fruitless dramas and receiving unnecessary records. We've already lost one artist's works because they couldn't stand the term cuntboy (the artist was also temporarily banned - score +1 for e621 publicity). Yes, their behavior was rude - they should have just submitted a takedown request and moved on without vandalizing tags.

But the point still stands, we now have a documented case of e621 failing to serve its purpose as an art archive because of this issue. If it had been an artist upset with our TWYS policy, fine - we would have told them to shove it, like we did to Purplekecleon. But this was somebody who would have had no problem with the site otherwise, had it not been for our terminology.

Cuntboy

and dickgirl are slang terms. For our purposes, they are extremely useful, descriptive tags. From the outside looking in, however, they seem unnecessary and rude. To put it into perspective, imagine we decided that we would now tag all races by their respective racial slurs. For users who take offense to cuntboy/dickgirl, THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

To anyone who has one or more of the following opinions:

• Artists/character owners should ignore it/deal with it.
• So-and-so user sounds self-righteous, so we shouldn't listen to them.
• We shouldn't cave in to SJW demands - what's to stop them from changing another tag?

Get out.

Quit wasting our time. I don't care how long you've been hanging around your friends across the pond or how much the internet has desensitized you. Almost everywhere in the real world - surprise - if you call your mother a cunt, she probably won't like it.

And no, e621 isn't going to start caving in to SJW demands over any other tag. We're not stupid. As far as I know, cuntboy and dickgirl are the only major descriptor tags we use slang for (other than pussy, but that's another story).

The tags are going to change, now it's just a matter of determining what new, equally descriptive tags we should use. THIS is where our efforts should be focused on. We are PAST the point of discussing whether or not they are offensive. They are. We don't need an admin ruling to determine this.

tl;dr get busy deciding what we're aliasing these to.

Fun misconception, the "hierarchy of vulgarity". Now, the fact that I have no respect for my own mother due to personal reasons, a person would be equally offended if you called their mother a "cunt" or, say, an "asswipe". There's no "X word is worse", what matters is recepient and intent. Even before the internet existed "to desensitize us" there were plenty of people who wouldn't give a damn what you called them, and there would be people who would get offended by being called anything that's not "Sir" or "Ma'am". And directing just about any insult towards one's family is almost always going to cause severe offense, unless they have little empathy for their family for any reason.

Ko-san said:
Heh, this is still going on...

Indeed. It feels a bit surreal to me, watching people get mad because "X tag is offensive to me!", and perhaps with good reason, while watching other people get mad with "It'll break our site!" and perhaps with less sensible reasons.....and here I'm just sitting kind of off to the side, trying to give feedback but ultimately not too concerned with what the tag is so long as it works. I can get why people are upset about what. But I keep shaking my head and wondering why they let themselves get upset so readily.

Wodahseht said:
With a decision that they need to be changed, perhaps it's time for a new topic like "Official: cuntboy/dickgirl alternative tags discussion" with an up-front statement to that effect where focus can be shifted specifically to coming up with and weighing possibilities. With a new topic specific to that purpose and locking this one it should be easier to enforce staying on that topic instead of random jumps back to "I don't think we should."

I'm in favor of this for clarity's sake. I never noticed NMNY's post on the matter earlier, myself.

Lol the person is started this must be so triggered~.

HypnoBitch said:
Lol the person is started this must be so triggered~.

If you have nothing worthwhile to add, don't post.

Genjar said:
Those are not feasible.
I'm convinced that the character owners would dislike those even more than the current tags. Intersex is defined as being outside the binary female/male, and calling them female_with_penis and male_with_pussy would feel like we're trying to pigeonhole them into the binary.

Not to mention that the posts would get mistagged as female and male.

Cboys and dgirls are defined by how they visually resemble a typical male/female, yet they feature genitalia of the opposite sex. The 'male_with_pussy' and 'female_with_penis' tags highlight a visual similarity to a specific sex and then specify the distinction from them. Essentially, a dgirl would be considered a female, if it weren't for the fact that they had a penis. These tags communicate the most basic understanding of what they represent.

I highly doubt that changing the tag names will lead to a higher rate of mistags, especially if efficient aliases are implemented like 'fwp'/'mwp'. If it really is such a problem, I would consider 'masculine_with_pussy' and 'feminine_with_penis' as acceptable, though I still have some issues with that (forum #211827).

Also, what do you mean by pigeonhole? As I said before, cboys and dgirls are defined by their similarities and differences to males and females. To describe them without referring to those two sexes would be needlessly difficult. I'm not insinuating anything about the gender of characters, this is just for the purpose of categorisation on the basis of visual sexual characteristics.

JAKXXX3 said:
I highly doubt that changing the tag names will lead to a higher rate of mistags, especially if efficient aliases are implemented like 'fwp'/'mwp'. If it really is such a problem, I would consider 'masculine_with_pussy' and 'feminine_with_penis' as acceptable, though I still have some issues with that (forum #211827).

But you can not always change Wiki definitions. A wiki should have the same meaning from the beginning to the end, and not on the day of creating the color mean red and years later pine tree. This applies to existing and newly created tags. This is something which bothers me in the discusion, whether x-ray or other "tags" it is always lively at the "tags" changed and their wiki. But often enough, even the wikis remain unchanged after the change of "tags", which always causes problems. Partially also because they do not say anything (for example, incest), even the treat where it comes, only for that (?). The treat does not give any reliable answers to be judged, like many.

Basically it is no longer about cuntboy or dickgirl, the problem here is that everyone wants to get through his concept of the "tag". The contribution the admins here and in some other treats show, is for me also disappointing. I have seen here in the Treeat just 2 users who take the whole seemingly serious and try to see the whole neutral and summarize. Especially the always get some unnecessary comments, to the head.

JAKXXX3 said:
I still believe male_with_pussy and female_with_penis are the best candidates. They are extremely simple and with little ambiguity,

I agree with you.

Genjar said:
Those are not feasible.
I'm convinced that the character owners would dislike those even more than the current tags. Intersex is defined as being outside the binary female/male, and calling them female_with_penis and male_with_pussy would feel like we're trying to pigeonhole them into the binary.

Not to mention that the posts would get mistagged as female and male.

If you already come with Artist then we can end the discussion and name finding. Then, in future, all existing "tags" on e621, can be dictated by the artists, who do not even have an account here and prescribe how many "tags" e621 may use. Or we delete the TWYS rule. This can happen to you at all "tags". Not just that. Someone might come up with the idea, something wrong with him, to your or my username.

But must confess that I see it for e621 as an honor that there are artists who publish here directly their works. Therefore, I think that in the case of the TWYS rule, one might know what is the character (name, gender, species, ...) as the artist himself. The TWYS rule also exists, Because you often have no accurate information. I think, e621 gives away a lot of potential, by insisting on the TWYS rule, in artists. You could also create a new account type, the artist account. This prevents the other user from changing the "tags" of the artist.

The incorrect setting of "tags" already happens today, see "nude" and "mostly_nude". Most "nude" are, according to the definition of the admins "mostly_nude".

Man. I didn't even realize that those terms could be considered offensive. Never once thought that they could be used in a derogatory sense.

Overcharge5150 said:
Man. I didn't even realize that those terms could be considered offensive. Never once thought that they could be used in a derogatory sense.

was first used on alt.fan.furry back in early 90s, to troll artists who drew intersex characters. It was always meant to be derogatory.

JAKXXX3 said:
I should also mention that vagentleman and phallady are growing on me. While the puns can be irksome, their meaning can be easily understood with minimal effort.

Yeah, those are starting to seem slightly better. But only because all of the alternatives are worse.

Though I'd prefer something that'd be easier to type and pronounce. ...I don't suppose that vaguy (vagina + guy) would be an option?

Vaguy, Vagentleman, all work as the new alias for cuntboy, for me. Actually, anything that isn't fucking 'non-binary' or 'masculine_intersex' is perfect. If I can't call myself a cuntboy, then I'll take any word that doesn't sound like an SJW created it.

Vaguy and vagentleman are awful puns and tbh are just about as bad as what we have already, that and there's no good equivilent female version, that's a definite no from me. Not to mention we've shot those down in the thread many times now earlier in.
Also what actual issue do you have with non_binary (not that that is a tag I I know that was a stab) and masculine_intersex?

GDelscribe said:
Vaguy and vagentleman are awful puns and tbh are just about as bad as what we have already, that and there's no good equivilent female version, that's a definite no from me. Not to mention we've shot those down in the thread many times now earlier in.

I might be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that you're one of the few who's had a problem with those tags.

Clawdragons said:
I might be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that you're one of the few who's had a problem with those tags.

Yeah you're right, I do personally. They seem really unprofessional and in a lot of ways would be a step sideways, like the existing problem will still be there.

GDelscribe said:
Yeah you're right, I do personally. They seem really unprofessional and in a lot of ways would be a step sideways, like the existing problem will still be there.

"Unprofessional" sounds like a step up from "Insulting" to me.

Furrin_Gok said:
"Unprofessional" sounds like a step up from "Insulting" to me.

Thats true, and maybe so but, if we go from this to something else that's equally slang and silly inevitably theres' gonna be others who are gonna have just as much problem with those tags. I already do and honestly debating on those new tags on why they're bad for another 20 pages is something Im sure nobody wants. The reason why I've outright ignored them multiple times is they sound, if I may be frank, stupid. And if you go and google those words, IE: vagentleman there are already people using them, and already a lot of artists who have voiced concerns on not wanting them to become commonplace like the current slurs were stuck with right now have.

GDelscribe said:
And if you go and google those words, IE: vagentleman there are already people using them, and already a lot of artists who have voiced concerns on not wanting them to become commonplace like the current slurs were stuck with right now have.

A bit of a pro-tip. Don't use Google for things like this.

Google is designed to create an echo chamber. It is designed to give you the sorts of results that it things you want, rather than an accurate representation of the results overall.

If an anti-vaxxer used Google to search for information regarding whether vaccines cause autism, they would be given a bunch of such information right away, whereas someone who supports vaccines would be given the opposite information.

If you want to use a search engine to answer a question like this, use one that does not give personalized results.

Clawdragons said:
I might be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that you're one of the few who's had a problem with those tags.

that would be because it still similarly objectifies people that do identify as some form of intersex which is part of the background behind the existence and sole vulgar usage of words like cunt or dick and their intersex equivalents cuntboy and dickgirl which for the most part can anly be found on strictly pornographic sites and some bdsm roleplay and relationships were one of the perticipents again are objectified towards the other because the terms can exist no where else for the simply reason of being something sociaty does not tolerate.
Also adding that it will be unclear among most people what vagentilmen are, while we actually have neutral terms suggested that are actually used formally in the real world and describe exactly these forms of intersex.

So why use something on the table that is still unwelcome and ambiguous to most people when we have something on the same table that is neutral and specific, used formally in the real world, easy to understand and get used to? And again on top of that doesnt tamper with searches in anyway negatively and doesnt lead to more mistags?

If you can't see the problem with "cuntboy" and "dickgirl" then you are the problem.

They should be abolished at the first opportunity as a basic show of decency to humanity and the English language.

Ruku said:
Stuff

Don't get me wrong, vagentleman and phallady aren't my first choice. I still prefer masculine_intersex and feminine_intersex. I'm just saying that it seems a bit disingenuous to me to act as though those terms were widely panned when you were the one doing most of the disagreement over them.

GDelscribe said:
Vaguy and vagentleman are awful puns and tbh are just about as bad as what we have already, that and there's no good equivilent female version, that's a definite no from me. Not to mention we've shot those down in the thread many times now earlier in.
Also what actual issue do you have with non_binary (not that that is a tag I I know that was a stab) and masculine_intersex?

I've known a few FtM folks semi-personally who actually found "vagentlemen" to be funny or cute, IE they didn't mind it and one at least highly preferred it over "cuntboy" after venting frustration that someone in person had asked them "So you're a real live cuntboy?"

GDelscribe said:
Thats true, and maybe so but, if we go from this to something else that's equally slang and silly inevitably theres' gonna be others who are gonna have just as much problem with those tags. I already do and honestly debating on those new tags on why they're bad for another 20 pages is something Im sure nobody wants. The reason why I've outright ignored them multiple times is they sound, if I may be frank, stupid. And if you go and google those words, IE: vagentleman there are already people using them, and already a lot of artists who have voiced concerns on not wanting them to become commonplace like the current slurs were stuck with right now have.

By this logic though, there's always going to be someone offended by whatever tag we settle on. It's that kind of thing that's lead me to feel there should be a new rule of the internet in the vein of R34, "everything will offend someone somewhere, no exceptions". Opposing a change with the arguement of "Someone will be offended!" means nothing will get done.

Clawdragons said:
A bit of a pro-tip. Don't use Google for things like this.

Google is designed to create an echo chamber. It is designed to give you the sorts of results that it things you want, rather than an accurate representation of the results overall.

If an anti-vaxxer used Google to search for information regarding whether vaccines cause autism, they would be given a bunch of such information right away, whereas someone who supports vaccines would be given the opposite information.

If you want to use a search engine to answer a question like this, use one that does not give personalized results.

This is correct.

Ruku said:
that would be because it still similarly objectifies people that do identify as some form of intersex which is part of the background behind the existence and sole vulgar usage of words like cunt or dick and their intersex equivalents cuntboy and dickgirl which for the most part can anly be found on strictly pornographic sites and some bdsm roleplay and relationships were one of the perticipents again are objectified towards the other because the terms can exist no where else for the simply reason of being something sociaty does not tolerate.
Also adding that it will be unclear among most people what vagentilmen are, while we actually have neutral terms suggested that are actually used formally in the real world and describe exactly these forms of intersex.

So why use something on the table that is still unwelcome and ambiguous to most people when we have something on the same table that is neutral and specific, used formally in the real world, easy to understand and get used to? And again on top of that doesnt tamper with searches in anyway negatively and doesnt lead to more mistags?

You'll have to excuse me if I'm missing something here, but how does "Vagentleman" or "Phallady" objectify people? It doesn't make them less human any more than "Male" or "Female" does? Or is there some definition of objectification that's cropped up that I'm not aware of?

404_ArtNotFound said:

You'll have to excuse me if I'm missing something here, but how does "Vagentleman" or "Phallady" objectify people? It doesn't make them less human any more than "Male" or "Female" does? Or is there some definition of objectification that's cropped up that I'm not aware of?

It focuses on the genitals rather than the person. Which makes tagging porn more straightforward but is generally seen as distasteful outside of that.

parasprite said:
It focuses on the genitals rather than the person. Which makes tagging porn more straightforward but is generally seen as distasteful outside of that.

I doubt it would be realistically possible to define cboys and dgirls in a straightforward manner without reference to genitalia.

JAKXXX3 said:
I doubt it would be realistically possible to define cboys and dgirls in a straightforward manner without reference to genitalia.

The intersex_masculine/feminine refers to them as body types and specified that they are intersex. But that is still open for debate.

parasprite said:
It focuses on the genitals rather than the person. Which makes tagging porn more straightforward but is generally seen as distasteful outside of that.

Alright, fair enough, I did miss that implication. That is true, though often enough porn/erotic art in itself is objectifying in much the same way.

Thank you for clearing that up for me, Parasprite.

parasprite said:
It focuses on the genitals rather than the person. Which makes tagging porn more straightforward but is generally seen as distasteful outside of that.

My suggestion to you admins, so that the discussion runs in a graded manner and does not always rotate in circles, give the user's framework conditions. What to consider when choosing the name, what has more weight? Is it gender as mentioned in the quote, or other factors. On the way we come to suggestions, which go beyond the few well-known. Then you can discuss them.

JAKXXX3 said:
I doubt it would be realistically possible to define cboys and dgirls in a straightforward manner without reference to genitalia.

Therein lies the rub. :/

parasprite said:
Therein lies the rub. :/

That is why the current tags that are being suggested have been. They focus on the body first and theyre pretty trans friendly so theyre not likely to cause too much issue in the future.

SINCE we already tag based on body type. NOT genitals (as demonstrated MANY times with tagging wars over characters like mikhaila) it's the best logical step.

Being offended by a fanciful term on a furry porn website.

Looks like E621 is starting to head in the way of F-list, and Secondlife, on the bullet train to SJW-ville.