Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
And I assume that change was made because someone at some point must have said "just because two characters in a picture who are male are screwing doesn't mean they are "gay" one or both of them could be bisexual, and we don't want to be perpetuating "bi-erasure," right?

Wrong.

The topic still exists here somewhere. You could easily have looked up the answer rather than assuming you already knew. And then you wouldn't have been wrong. Also if you had read this thread, someone explained that somewhere in here as well (me maybe?), so that would have worked as well.

Maybe I'm weird, but I like to avoid being wrong, where possible, so I try not to assume things, especially when I have no evidence at all for them.

Anyway, here are the results of the poll thus far. I was going to hold out for more votes, but it seems like there's a fairly strong trend already.

http://i.imgur.com/WFbMt2L.png

Clawdragons said:
Wrong.

The topic still exists here somewhere. You could easily have looked up the answer rather than assuming you already knew. And then you wouldn't have been wrong. Also if you had read this thread, someone explained that somewhere in here as well (me maybe?), so that would have worked as well.

Maybe I'm weird, but I like to avoid being wrong, where possible, so I try not to assume things, especially when I have no evidence at all for them.

Anyway, here are the results of the poll thus far. I was going to hold out for more votes, but it seems like there's a fairly strong trend already.

http://i.imgur.com/WFbMt2L.png

Now you get into the territory of 'data validity.'
Who voted, in what environment, under what expectations?

Actinium-89 said:
Now you get into the territory of 'data validity.'
Who voted, in what environment, under what expectations?

Yeah, I'm a stats major, so I'm fairly familiar with that sort of stuff.

Anonymous voting, on a forum devoted to LGBT issues. I tried to be neutral in my question and introduction, so given the anonymous nature of the poll I don't see any "expectations" that would complicate the issue.

That said, I'm not looking at getting this published. I'm simply trying to present something of a more objective view of the issue than "well I talked to some people and I got a general impression", and "my personal feelings are this and that", which is thus far what we've had in the topic.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:

could you please just stop talking

you don't need to have an opinion on everything

Clawdragons said:
a forum devoted to LGBT issues

Clawdragons said:
more objective view of the issue

I'll bet it was safe for work too. This is fairly indicative of the crux of the issue: this is not a place for LGBT issues. It is a place for the categorization and organization of images involving anthropomorphic animals, primarily of a pornographic nature.

@All; @GDelscribe; @Chaser; @Clawdragons:

GDelscribe said:
I personally think we should take a poll officially then.
From here on in let's vote.

If you don't have a vote to contribute either way thats ok, just lets please stop trying to derail the thread with nonsense about censorship or whether something is offensive or not. That discussion is over. And censorship was never an issue to begin with.
[..]

Chaser said:
This appears to be a big decision and no one in this thread can agree.
I vote we do a site wide vote over the announcement system to get many people to vote. Any admins wish to chime in on this?

Sounds good to me!

1. There's a possible risk of skewed results if the voting period is too short though,

Maybe something like a ~6-12 month voting span with multiple stickies and announcements so everyone knows what's going on?

--
Before we do that though, after rereading the forum (again),

2. There seems to still be some confusion regarding the systems proposed,

I think it would be a wise idea to ensure that at the very least, the people who are actively contributing in some constructive way to this discussion are all on the same page regarding the pros and cons (and/or other considerations) with each of the systems proposed

@GDelscribe made a very nice summary of the systems here + a poll count:

https://e621.net/forum/show/199781

---
I think they missed the updated version of the combinative tagging proposal though, which addresses all the cons (yes, really) of the individual systems, i.e

-
(Perhaps @Clawdragons could help confirm any of the above?)

If there's enough interest, I could make a dedicated topic for discussing the pros/cons of all the systems proposed so far (https://e621.net/forum/show/199781 , https://e621.net/forum/show/197264 etc.);

What do you all think?

-
In any case, the OP of forum #140749 should be updated by the end of the week to account for all the proposed tags/systems anyway,
so whomever's interested in a summary of all the proposals + links to other immediately relevant material for further context could check that out in the meantime

Beanjam said:
[..]
this is not a place for LGBT issues. It is a place for the categorization and organization of images involving anthropomorphic animals, primarily of a pornographic nature.

Why not both? :p

38 000+ 'intersex' posts seem to hint that such areas of discussion are not as a minor part of the site as some may think (see earlier posts in here as to why content and creators are interrelated)

I had actually missed that yeay! My bad Ill see if i can add it when I get home.

I'd be interested in the sitewide poll idea and We already basically have a bunch of options already set up gathered from this thread and previous discussions on the topic so!

It could prove useful. That said if you wait too long on it it could end up defeating the purpose anyway.

3 to 6 months is definitely fair. Im not sure about a year. But I agree with you on all other points.

And by all means feel free to make a new topic. Especially if you think it would help organize the situation more. Ill also update my own op here to include a copy of thw poll for easy viewing access.

Ive been wanting to post all the art ai have of my trans+intersex characters but I refuse to until I know for certain they wont be tagged with DGirl or CBoy.

I also cant upload art from at least 5 artists who have basically told me until the situation is changed their art isnt going up here.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
And I assume that change was made because someone at some point must have said "just because two characters in a picture who are male are screwing doesn't mean they are "gay" one or both of them could be bisexual, and we don't want to be perpetuating "bi-erasure," right? I think there is also more nuance to this issue and slapping "trans" onto all characters who appear male but possess female genitals (or who appear female but possess male genitals) would be unnecessarily sticking all those characters under an umbrella that the characters' owners / creators may not necessarily want. Intersexed characters would also have gotten stuffed under that "trans" umbrella, and then what would we have, intersexed erasure?

Seriously stop posting. If you can't keep anything relevant, don't talk. It's that simple.

What follows here is a long rant about various subjects recently brought up, sorry in advance if I made you suffer reading through it. I was going to bring up other things, I'm pretty good at ranting, but enough is enough...

\[\[#system1]] | \[\[#system2]] | \[\[#system3]] | ...
 
\[quote]
h2.[#system1][u]System 1[/u]
 
Short introduction
 
\[table][thead][tr][th]Current      [/th][th] New [/th][th] Notes
[/th][/tr][/thead][tbody][tr][td][[male]]     [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][[female]]   [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][[intersex]] [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][[dickgirl]] [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][[herm]]     [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][[maleherm]] [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td]femaleherm*  [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][[cuntboy]]  [/td][td] ... [/td][td] ...
[/td][/tr][tr][td]\[/td][/tr][/tbody][/table]
\* femaleherm does not exist in the current system but included for more detailed systems.
 
Maybe additional explanations if new system is not directly comparable to old system.
 
h3. Pros
 
* Pro1
* Pro2
* Pro3
 
h3. Cons
 
* Con1
* Con2
* Con3
 
h3. More information
 
\[section]
...
\[/section]
\[/quote]
 
h2.[#system2][u]System 2[/u]
...

To be honest chessax to answer your question if its porn yeah people are going to use it for that purpose. Thats kind of the point. But calling my characters by slur names isnt something I'm comfortable woth. And Im never going to be comfortable with it.

In a lot of ways those characters are an extension of myself and how I express myself as an individual.

Having them suddenly marked with dickgirl or cuntboy, something thats completely atrocious, used as an insult or complete objectification for years would be outright disheartening and frankly makes me not want to have my art here at all.

It comes down to either having the ability to respect trans artists/copyright owners wishes to not have those tags used which is not fair to e621 and breaks the tagging system. Using tags is important for subscriptions and blacklists to work so its not immediately reasonable. Or the alternative is hoping to change what we have now to something that is fundamentally unharmful.

Body first. Junk second. No ties to the current porn industry (in specific, Im not gonna get into why the paid adult video industry is bad right now but man its a huge contribution to the problem.)

Cuntboy and Dickgirl are no different from tranny heshe or shehe or trap.

So for myself and my girlfriend having our trans characters called these things is extremely hurtful.

I dont care of people jerk it to them. If im getting/making porn of them frankly its probably for that reason to begin with. Theres nothing wrong with sex or being sexual.

What IS a problem is demeaning people for no reason. And thats what these tags do.

GDelscribe said:
What IS a problem is demeaning people for no reason. And thats what these tags do.

i didn't want to respond to this but FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS MERCIFUL! words are NOT inherently offensive! stopping CHOOSING to be offended by mere WORDS and for crying out loud, ENOUGH with the bitching and whining about it!

it is how you choose to use the words that makes them offensive and even then it is a CHOICE on your part as to whether or not you choose to LET them bother you.

wtf is with the absolute stupidity of this entire Fing topic?!

whine whine WHINE! oh boohoo, someone is using a tag that serves as an adequate VISUAL description of the FICTIONAL character in question. fiction, as in NOT real. as in, having absolutely NO effect on anything irl unless you choose to LET it affect you.

how the hell can ANYONE be so freaking sensitive? i can't even begin to comprehend how some people can be so hypersensitive to WORDS and WORDS alone. nor do i want to as it's stupid, plain and simple.

fuck this thread, give me a record if you want. I. DO. NOT. CARE! what I want is the ability to selectively block forum threads from now on the same way i can blacklist tags, pics, and usernames.

the fuck is wrong with this fubar world we live in? the rampant stupidity EVERYWHERE online OR irl makes me wish i could just glass this whole rock VERY slowly.

treos said:
i didn't want to respond to this but FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS MERCIFUL! words are NOT inherently offensive! stopping CHOOSING to be offended by mere WORDS and for crying out loud, ENOUGH with the bitching and whining about it!

it is how you choose to use the words that makes them offensive and even then it is a CHOICE on your part as to whether or not you choose to LET them bother you.

wtf is with the absolute stupidity of this entire Fing topic?!

whine whine WHINE! oh boohoo, someone is using a tag that serves as an adequate VISUAL description of the FICTIONAL character in question. fiction, as in NOT real. as in, having absolutely NO effect on anything irl unless you choose to LET it affect you.

how the hell can ANYONE be so freaking sensitive? i can't even begin to comprehend how some people can be so hypersensitive to WORDS and WORDS alone. nor do i want to as it's stupid, plain and simple.

fuck this thread, give me a record if you want. I. DO. NOT. CARE! what I want is the ability to selectively block forum threads from now on the same way i can blacklist tags, pics, and usernames.

the fuck is wrong with this fubar world we live in? the rampant stupidity EVERYWHERE online OR irl makes me wish i could just glass this whole rock VERY slowly.

You seem very offended by GDelscribe's words right now.

What you are proposing, for the record, is basically stoicism. There are things outside of your control, but your own reaction is within your control, so you should choose not to be bothered by those things.

The difference between you and stoics, however, seems to be that while a stoic would apply that standard to themselves, and say "the continuation of this topic is outside of my control, apparently, so I choose not to get annoyed by it", you seem to only apply that standard to others, saying "you all should choose not to get offended, and I'll get offended if you don't".

I am amazed by how sensitive you are, honestly, that a topic about "hey can we come up with a better set of terms for this" has brought you to the point where you're fantasizing about destroying all life on the planet.

Treos, we generally get along, and I hope we can continue to do so in the future, but right now, all I can say is, learn to practice what you preach. If you don't want others getting offended easily, set an example and stop getting offended so easily.

treos said:
i didn't want to respond to this but FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS MERCIFUL! words are NOT inherently offensive! stopping CHOOSING to be offended by mere WORDS and for crying out loud, ENOUGH with the bitching and whining about it!

it is how you choose to use the words that makes them offensive and even then it is a CHOICE on your part as to whether or not you choose to LET them bother you.

wtf is with the absolute stupidity of this entire Fing topic?!

whine whine WHINE! oh boohoo, someone is using a tag that serves as an adequate VISUAL description of the FICTIONAL character in question. fiction, as in NOT real. as in, having absolutely NO effect on anything irl unless you choose to LET it affect you.

how the hell can ANYONE be so freaking sensitive? i can't even begin to comprehend how some people can be so hypersensitive to WORDS and WORDS alone. nor do i want to as it's stupid, plain and simple.

fuck this thread, give me a record if you want. I. DO. NOT. CARE! what I want is the ability to selectively block forum threads from now on the same way i can blacklist tags, pics, and usernames.

the fuck is wrong with this fubar world we live in? the rampant stupidity EVERYWHERE online OR irl makes me wish i could just glass this whole rock VERY slowly.

To be honest, I don't find words offensive, in closed groups with my friends we don't care what words we use. Hell, it'd probably make you uncomfortable the way we act when we goof off.
But in open online spaces, I try not to offend people. I feel that using the word cuntboy, or tagging it, is referring to the person and/or character as a "cunt". I don't like that feeling.

Actually Treos. If you blacklist me as a user and set the option to blackhole my posts you wont see anything I post or have to say.

Thats an option for you as a user. Blacklists exist for the comfort of everyone to prevent people from being offended, shocked by what they dont like, or avoiding users that bother them.

E621 is a place that has consistently put the user first in that respect so when it comes to asking for words that are functionally hurtful to be changed its really no different in the end fromthe purpose of the blacklist. I have no problem with the art these are applied to. I make and commission it myself. So I cant blacklist it. Im not gonna make the slur go away with that tool. So its up to us to propose something better and the admins to decide what the best alternative to fix the issue is.

Ive done absolutely nothing to cause any direct insult or offense to you directly. I have no wish to cause a fight with you or cause you yourself to be uncomfortable.

Please stop acting like Im attacking you directly by simply wanting to nothave alurs applied to my characters and art.

Treos, this thread was probably bait from the start. The OP created this thread not to get other people's opinions, but to reinforce and prop up their own. Notice how just about every point from the opposition is ignored or vilified. Notice also the use of reverse psychology / using what you just said against you... Oh, you think people are getting too offended? Uh, well what about you, Treos? Y R U SEW UHFINDID??? Hurr durr!

I do have a fun idea though... so there's this music term called "ritardando." It means the tempo of the song gradually slows down like a turntable losing power. The metronome / click track slows down.

Well I've decided that this music term sounds much-much too close to the word "retard" and so I'm just gunna go on every Pro Tools video on YouTube where the video maker explains how to achieve this trick and accuse them of being "ableist" by using / saying this word...

Ritardando. In the music context it has absolutely nothing to do with the "differently abled" but I'm going to bitch and complain and act like an SJW until the music world abandons this term in favor of something "less offensive." Like maybe "tempo slowy" ...

I'll also go after the textile industry for using the phrase "fire retardant" as that is also potentially offensive...

I will make a mountain from a molehill, for no other reason than "I can" and "it sounds offensive."

Chaser said:
To be honest, I don't find words offensive, in closed groups with my friends we don't care what words we use. Hell, it'd probably make you uncomfortable the way we act when we goof off.
But in open online spaces, I try not to offend people. I feel that using the word cuntboy, or tagging it, is referring to the person and/or character as a "cunt". I don't like that feeling.

See, I don't feel that way, but at the same time, there are terms that I do read in the bits and pieces (No, I cannot name them off the top of my head), so I can at least understand why people get offended and acknowledge that a change would be helpful. However, this way of thinking is what lead to my sides of the arguments, why I've spoken against other terms, and how I point out the changes in some that lose their hostility.

I still think that despite the silliness of Phallady, it and the I-don't-see-it-as-clunky-at-all "Vagentleman" tags would be the best bet, but I'll settle for the gender-frame_with_genitals tags like masculine_with_pussy.

Furrin_Gok said:
See, I don't feel that way, but at the same time, there are terms that I do read in the bits and pieces (No, I cannot name them off the top of my head), so I can at least understand why people get offended and acknowledge that a change would be helpful. However, this way of thinking is what lead to my sides of the arguments, why I've spoken against other terms, and how I point out the changes in some that lose their hostility.

I still think that despite the silliness of Phallady, it and the I-don't-see-it-as-clunky-at-all "Vagentleman" tags would be the best bet, but I'll settle for the gender-frame_with_genitals tags like masculine_with_pussy.

Actually I like masculine_with_pussy and feminine_with_penis better than most of the other body + genitals tags so far. male_with_pussy would seem to get mistagged as male, intersex_pussy would get tagged for herms, but masculine and feminine avoid those issues (though there might still be some problems with, say, girly, that is way more minor).

"genderframe_with_genitaltype" makes the most sense and would be the easiest for people to understand, well, the ones who wouldn't have familiarity with obscure terms like "andromorph" and "gynomorph" or "altersex."

But of course, that isn't "unique" enough to be appealing... not snow-flakey enough. We need nice ambiguous hard to interpret terms for maximum individuality. Anyone who thinks otherwise is probably a dirty conformist shitlord.

Clawdragons said:
Actually I like masculine_with_pussy and feminine_with_penis better than most of the other body + genitals tags so far. male_with_pussy would seem to get mistagged as male, intersex_pussy would get tagged for herms, but masculine and feminine avoid those issues (though there might still be some problems with, say, girly, that is way more minor).

Definitely agree with that actually, its even more straightforward and accurate than male or etc.

Only con I can see is the interaction with the femboy tag but otherwise seems like it would be a good call.
Ill get to updating the posts soon.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
"genderframe_with_genitaltype" makes the most sense and would be the easiest for people to understand, well, the ones who wouldn't have faniliarity with obscure terms like "andromorph" and "gynomorph" or "altersex."

Its definitely up there in usability and gets the point across easy. I dont see many who would have issues with those tags really.

Clawdragons said:
Actually I like masculine_with_pussy and feminine_with_penis better than most of the other body + genitals tags so far.

Those are pretty good. Bit on the long side, but I don't see any way to trim them down to just one underscore.

Genjar said:
Those are pretty good. Bit on the long side, but I don't see any way to trim them down to just one underscore.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with those sorts of tags - especially when you get into tags like cuntboy/dickgirl which would then be stupidly long.

I feel like a shortcut would perhaps resolve the issue though.

GDelscribe said:
Definitely agree with that actually, its even more straightforward and accurate than male or etc.

Only con I can see is the interaction with the femboy tag but otherwise seems like it would be a good call.
Ill get to updating the posts soon.Its definitely up there in usability and gets the point across easy. I dont see many who would have issues with those tags really.

Femboy or Girly are still considered "masculine" if only through the presence of a dick or dick bulge. After all, they aren't being tagged as Dickgirl, so it's obviously accepted that there's enough masculinity in them to still qualify as male.

post #906038 post #847531
post #906010 post #873806
These are all recognized as being masculine enough for the cuntboy tag, but also girly, and are covered by girly cuntboy.

Furrin_Gok said:
Femboy or Girly are still considered "masculine" if only through the presence of a dick or dick bulge. After all, they aren't being tagged as Dickgirl, so it's obviously accepted that there's enough masculinity in them to still qualify as male.

post #906038 post #847531
post #906010 post #873806
These are all recognized as being masculine enough for the cuntboy tag, but also girly, and are covered by girly cuntboy.

Honestly I think that last one should get the flat chested tag rather than cuntboy. The Star Fox image is an edge case, but the blue one I think is mistagged. Girly face, fairly wide hips, female genitalia...

Oh haaaaaaaaaaaaai, Genjar. ^_^

SirBrownBear said:
Honestly, this. If we're trying to go full PC with tags/terms on a FURRY PORN IMAGE BOARD, this is pretty much the best option.

Genjar said:
And then those will get constantly mistagged as male and female.
"What do you mean, male doesn't apply? There's already a tag added that has 'male' in it."

The altersex_penis/altersex_vagina suggestion is starting to sound better to me. It is a made-up term, but maybe that's what we need. Something with no real-life connotations.

https://e621.net/forum/show/195804?page=12
https://e621.net/forum/show/195804?page=13

I know I shouldn't persnicket, and minds can change, but... yeah.

And yes, I know I was not the first to suggest "gender body type + genital type" as a tag idea... (it certainly stays true to the "tag what you see" philosophy of e621, and is a lot less easy to misinterpret than "altersex." (what is that anyway? where does it come from? curious.)

I take it that it was because Furrin repeated the suggestion that sparked the sudden change of mind.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Oh haaaaaaaaaaaaai, Genjar. ^_^

https://e621.net/forum/show/195804?page=12
https://e621.net/forum/show/195804?page=13

I know I shouldn't persnicket, and minds can change, but... yeah.

And yes, I know I was not the first to suggest "gender body type + genital type" as a tag idea... (it certainly stays true to the "tag what you see" philosophy of e621, and is a lot less easy to misinterpret than "altersex." (what is that anyway? where does it come from? curious.)

I take it that it was because Furrin repeated the suggestion that sparked the sudden change of mind.

Actually, I changed it from male/female to masculine/feminine. Suggests the body type, not the actual gender.

Of course, "male" and "female" are too lable-ey, I get it. Don't wanna assume gender by visual appearance cuz that's a shitlordy thing to do.

Anyway, what do we call this.

https://e621.net/post/show/931078/after_sex-age_difference-anthro-anus-backsack-ball

I see balls and no boobs, but damn, that face, long hair and the hairbow. Trans? Genderfluid? "chick-kin?"

We should just scrap "male" and "female" as tags altogether, since the words could upset someone. I mean Tails and Klonoa maybe don't appreciate being gendered against their wishes.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Of course, "male" and "female" are too lable-ey, I get it. Don't wanna assume gender by visual appearance cuz that's a shitlordy thing to do.

Anyway, what do we call this.

post #931078
I see balls and no boobs, but damn, that face, long hair and the hairbow. Trans? Genderfluid? "chick-kin?"

We should just scrap "male" and "female" as tags altogether, since the words could upset someone. I mean Tails and Klonoa maybe don't appreciate being gendered against their wishes.

Genderfluid maybe, but who cares, as stated before we don't tag gender.

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:
Oh haaaaaaaaaaaaai, Genjar. ^_^

https://e621.net/forum/show/195804?page=12
https://e621.net/forum/show/195804?page=13

I know I shouldn't persnicket, and minds can change, but... yeah.

And yes, I know I was not the first to suggest "gender body type + genital type" as a tag idea... (it certainly stays true to the "tag what you see" philosophy of e621, and is a lot less easy to misinterpret than "altersex." (what is that anyway? where does it come from? curious.)

I take it that it was because Furrin repeated the suggestion that sparked the sudden change of mind.

Altersex is a term created by fandom artist "SpottyJaguar" a nonbinary dude who doesn't want their characters tagged with slurs either.

The explanation is on page 2.

Clawdragons said:
Honestly I think that last one should get the flat chested tag rather than cuntboy. The Star Fox image is an edge case, but the blue one I think is mistagged. Girly face, fairly wide hips, female genitalia...

I agree on that, and the current tags aren't perfect in their application because its still kind of a subjective thing.

Clawdragons said:
Yeah, that's the biggest problem with those sorts of tags - especially when you get into tags like cuntboy/dickgirl which would then be stupidly long.

I feel like a shortcut would perhaps resolve the issue though.

In the end its the main reason why I vied for andromorph and gynomorph for so long, I still like them and the altersex choices because theyre short simple and to the point.

Plz 2 be splainin' why "male" and "female" exist as tags, then.

Srsly, why not just get rid of male and female altogether, since gendering characters against their will is wrawng.

https://s31.postimg.org/bfl24j849/we_dont_tag_gender_lol.png

Oh look at that, 300 hits for "male." But it's totally not used as a tag, right. Oh sorry, my bad, those male-appearing characters might actually be "female-spirited...

GDelscribe said:
who cares, as stated before we don't tag gender.

The explanation is on page 2.

Sorry, maybe I didn't want to read all of the pages of this thread, much like other people just coming in to the discussion.

So long story short, this Spotty guy made up the term altersex. You said gynomoprh and andromorph are established and have historical use, but at the same time, they are ambiguous and don't aptly describe (at least to the uninformed) the body type of the character, at least I don't think. You did say that "masculine_with_vagina" and "feminine_with_penis" is okay, but like someone else also stated, fem-boys would possibly also get classed under that umbrella.

Why not just do away with "male" and "female" as tags / words in the english language altogether. They're just societal constructs, right? And people will take offense to their use as descriptors and we don't want people taking offense.

Doing away with "male" and "female" avoids the possibility of "fem-boys" being improperly tagged. Fight the cis-stem, yee haw. Down with the gender-archy.

GDelscribe said:
In the end its the main reason why I vied for andromorph and gynomorph for so long, I still like them and the altersex choices because theyre short simple and to the point.

I agree that their simplicity is a nice selling point, and honestly I think people would get used to them pretty quickly (considering it's still possible to tag with the existing tags until you do), but they are still a bit controversial. Nonetheless, that's one of the reasons that I specified that I like them better than other body + genital combination tags, rather than just saying I like them better than all the options.

MDF , at this point I suspect you're -actively trying- to get banned.

GDelscribe said:

I still like them and the altersex choices because theyre short simple and to the point.

I don't think that's accurate. Multiple people have expressed confusion over both *morph and altersex*. I myself initially agreed with *morph, then I actually tried to use it....... yeah. Short, yes. Not simple or to the point.

[build]_with_[genitalia] is the only suggestion that confusion has -not- been expressed about, and AFAICS the only one that is not clearly worse than what we currently have.

(I don't count titanmelon's because it's a significantly bigger change and I'm not sure anyone fully understands what effects it would have)

Mana_Dragon_Flammie said:

Stop.

Talking.

savageorange said:
MD, at this point I suspect you're -actively trying- to get banned.

Honestly, bruh. This whole topic was designed to get people neg'd / banned. Especially when discourse and humor are equated with genuine contempt. I don't ~hate~ anyone in this thread.... also, hope I didn't upset you by using "bruh" as a term of affection / endearment.

Clawdragons said:
I agree that their simplicity is a nice selling point, and honestly I think people would get used to them pretty quickly (considering it's still possible to tag with the existing tags until you do), but they are still a bit controversial. Nonetheless, that's one of the reasons that I specified that I like them better than other body + genital combination tags, rather than just saying I like them better than all the options.

More or less yeah, I understand a few people don't have an easy time with them, so Its going to take some time to get used to for everyone involved if they do end up getting picked in the end. That said, having to learn something new isn't too big an issue.

savageorange said:
MDF , at this point I suspect you're -actively trying- to get banned.

I don't think that's accurate. Multiple people have expressed confusion over both *morph and altersex*. I myself initially agreed with *morph, then I actually tried to use it....... yeah. Short, yes. Not simple or to the point.

[build]_with_[genitalia] is the only suggestion that confusion has -not- been expressed about, and AFAICS the only one that is not clearly worse than what we currently have.

(I don't count titanmelon's because it's a significantly bigger change and I'm not sure anyone fully understands what effects it would have)

My boyfriend expressed that he has issues with the morph tags as well because when he thinks on it he has a hard time grasping whether the andro refers to the parts or the body. He was able to figure it out a bit easier after I explained that it's body first junk second, but it is a problem that I myself didn't percieve because to me it was something not even to question or think about, it just was what it was.

Im curious what part of it in your case makes it not simple, just so I can work on an idea to maybe improve the explanation or alter the words in some way to make them more straightforward.

I also agree with you and the others on the case of the *body_with_*genitals tags idea, very handy and I can't see any real objection to them.

Also @Mana_Dragon_Flammie, listen, I said we don't tag Gender, Male and Female are a Sex, Andromorph and Gynomorph/Altersex etc are SEX tags, as they tag physical characteristics of character morphology.

This topic was made to change a real issue, not cause people to have problems. Right now you're the only one doing that.

Right, right, right.... "sex is between your legs, gender is between your ears" myyyyyyy baaaaaddd.

Does this topic really warrant such long posts this late into the discussion, god damn. Make a choice already.

GDelscribe said:
My boyfriend expressed that he has issues with the morph tags as well because when he thinks on it he has a hard time grasping whether the andro refers to the parts or the body.

This is it exactly for me. Sure, your 'body first parts second' explanation helps (I hope.. that would lead me to think that andromorph == masculine_with_vagina). But tags really need to be totally self explanatory to a relative layman, if at all possible. That was the idea behind my 'even when drunk or half asleep' comment. The bigger our post database grows, the more important this will become.

>this thread
post #932420

savageorange said:
This is it exactly for me. Sure, your 'body first parts second' explanation helps (I hope.. that would lead me to think that andromorph == masculine_with_vagina). But tags really need to be totally self explanatory to a relative layman, if at all possible. That was the idea behind my 'even when drunk or half asleep' comment. The bigger our post database grows, the more important this will become.

Yeah you got it right, thats how it works.

I figured that it was self explanatory and thats my bad for assuming, I never considered.

And yeah, the more new tags/words become relevant and used the more get added to the database and conciseness and understandability is pretty important.

I can't really think of anything more immediate than the words themselves so that'll be something I'll work on.

Flammie, I largely agree with you and I think you should quit this thread. At this point you are just scoring points for the opposing team. Words aren't worth being banned over.

Keep on topic or be used to make an example.

I am very, very tired of having to keep coming in here.

Thirtyeight said:
Flammie, I largely agree with you and I think you should quit this thread. At this point you are just scoring points for the opposing team. Words aren't worth being banned over.

Looks like you were a bit too late.

"If you blacklist me as a user and set the option to blackhole my posts you wont see anything I post or have to say."

"avoiding users that bother them."

...blacklist updated...something i should've done upon the initial creation of this thread...

"Treos, this thread was probably bait from the start."

...napalm would have been less flammable and more stable...

the fact that this thread was a raging inferno just begging to be fed was blatantly obvious from the beginning. too many things happening in the world currently make such a topic a ticking time bomb that manna and i fell prey to from the start. -_- actually, i saw that easily and yet i still went after it...why?

well, lesson learnt. at least here on this site i'll now stay away from anything that seems remotely pc.

yes, this thread reeks of the pc way of thinking and goals. no, i don't care in the slightest about that neg nor will i be returning to this thread. do what you want from here on. i...don't feel too welcome here after this mess (and what a mess it is). i'll stick to pics and tagging from now on and little else.

*sigh* i'm going back to youtube and reddit for now. wasted enough time here.

after all of this, this place feels distinctly less friendly and open now.

The internet is currently largely focused on what feels right instead of what is right, but it won't always be this way. All things in time.

Peekaboo said:
I'd wager 99% of furry characters were equipped with the right junk when they were born, instead of changing genders through surgical and nonsurgical means, as people do in the real world. So calling them transsexual wouldn't be right either.

THIS!

Also, "cuntboy" and "dickgirl" are used by the character owners themselves(and are likely the terms people fap to).

Furrin_Gok said:
Femboy or Girly are still considered "masculine" if only through the presence of a dick or dick bulge. After all, they aren't being tagged as Dickgirl, so it's obviously accepted that there's enough masculinity in them to still qualify as male.

post #906038 post #847531
post #906010 post #873806
These are all recognized as being masculine enough for the cuntboy tag, but also girly, and are covered by girly cuntboy.

On a related note, I would argue that the tiger_stripes tag should only be used on non-tigers or it will be redundant and require extra search terms, for the same reason "girly" (which aliases to femboy) is not used on f/h/d. There are numerous similar tag cases.

To me, the issue is that e621 is a site where the community gets to upload and describe art. Not the people featured in the art, nor the artists. Maybe it's their characters, or their art; but if their objections are a blocker, it might be better to just not show their art here than to comply with their demands.

Not a fan of that idea? Several alternatives come to mind:

• having users be able to set versions of tags which they see instead of the common standard (which might be extended to replacement in comments)
• preferred tags being shown by default on work which they upload or are featured in, subject to an override from the viewer (less idea in my view, possibly more complicated, but it's an option)

Why is this better? Because it resolves the situation without giving too much personal control over third-party communications on work by/for them - let alone a general class of characters. In this way, the power and rights are equal: nobody is forced to describe or see themselves as something "bad"; but nor do they have power over what others see, nor can they overrule existing descriptions given by others, except for them (or possibly, their characters).

After all, those other people may use and prefer the terms in question; perhaps, as DSR highlights, because they are seen as vulgar, as they wish their characters to be treated in a denigrating fashion. In my experience this is true of many such characters.

Adaptable display options would fit naturally with e621's existing tag flexibility features. Of course, if the terms some prefer become popular, they might well become standard; but it will be a natural progression, representing a change in common usage.

tl;dr: This is a personal preference issue crying out for a technical solution.

GreenReaper said:
To me, the issue is that e621 is a site where the community gets to upload and describe art. Not the people featured in the art, nor the artists. Maybe it's their characters, or their art; but if their objections are a blocker, it might be better to just not show their art here than to comply with their demands.

The problem is we want their art here. Just look around, people whine every time an artist requests art removal.

If the response is dont post your art here then thats basically the problem to begin with.

Were asking to be treated with respect. Thats all.

User preferred tags is nice and all but would probably be hell to implement. And frankly if you want to do that youd defeat the purpose of the alias system outright and thered be no discussion at all.

Some people like being insulted and put down. Yeah great that their fetish nice for them. The majority of us don't.

This isnt inkbunny or furaffinity with a personal tagging system thats shoddy at best based entirely on what only the uploader affords to put.

Its a community website to serve as an art archive with community tagging systems.

If those slurs are a part of your community at the basic level then theres a problem. No offense.

The words are vulgar. Theyre insulting and there are a lot of artists who really dont want their characters tagged that. And wont allow their stuff to be uploaded etc etc anywhere if there is a chance of that sort of thing.

People have blocked people on inkbunny for using the suggested tags system to add slur tags to peoples characters. People have been blocked or bad blood and arguments have started for less.

There are users on here and other places who have gone looking for any excuse to demean and attack trans artists etc for their characters. Theres an entire section of artwork on here under the dgirl tag with people leaving awful comments like "Kill it with fire" and "The person who made this is sick" etc.

People irl who are trans etc have had these tags thrown at them with death threats and other insults in tow.

Theyre demeaning. Its demoralising to see your characters called the same thing that people use to insult you personally. So no this extends far beyond "personal preference."

One final thing. Id love a personal tagging system but it wouldnt work. What if that user always tags with their personal tags. Would the system be able to handle parsing every individual personal word and mask it personally for users at the same time without causing issues?

I think GreenReaper's post is a red herring. Is there anything stopping aliases dickgirl->feminine_with_penis and cuntboy->masculine_with_pussy from being formally proposed at this point? Are there any substantive objection to these[1], or any tag cleanups that need to be done before aliases are proposed?

[1] only objection I've seen so far is about length of name in tag list, and AFAICS that can be fixed with further aliasing if it turns out to be a real problem.

savageorange said:
I think GreenReaper's post is a red herring. Is there anything stopping aliases dickgirl->feminine_with_penis and cuntboy->masculine_with_pussy from being formally proposed at this point? Are there any substantive objection to these[1], or any tag cleanups that need to be done before aliases are proposed?

[1] only objection I've seen so far is about length of name in tag list, and AFAICS that can be fixed with further aliasing if it turns out to be a real problem.

Yes. Feminine with penis can be mistaken for girly, when read. It even states it in the wiki page: "...and sometimes body type (sans breasts of course)." flat_chested does exist as a tag, for women, and men can be mistakenly tagged with it as well.

As for masculine with pussy, that can be mistaken for females who have muscular bodies, but that's a weaker statement. Kinda hard to not notice breasts, but it can happen if it's overt muscles and less-detailed around the breasts (or, specifically, something that'd be more ambiguous_gender than female)

An ultimate statement is: for feminine with penis, it needs to show breasts. Not all females show breasts, and not all males have masculine bodies. For masculine with pussy, muscles are associated with masculinity, but muscles can be on females (without making them masculine). In order to tell the difference, you'd need to see breasts.

Siral_Exan said:
Yes. Feminine with penis can be mistaken for girly, when read. It even states it in the wiki page: "...and sometimes body type (sans breasts of course)." flat_chested does exist as a tag, for women, and men can be mistakenly tagged with it as well.

As for masculine with pussy, that can be mistaken for females who have muscular bodies, but that's a weaker statement. Kinda hard to not notice breasts, but it can happen if it's overt muscles and less-detailed around the breasts (or, specifically, something that'd be more ambiguous_gender than female)

An ultimate statement is: for feminine with penis, it needs to show breasts. Not all females show breasts, and not all males have masculine bodies. For masculine with pussy, muscles are associated with masculinity, but muscles can be on females (without making them masculine). In order to tell the difference, you'd need to see breasts.

To be fair thats an argument you could apply to the existing tags as it is as demonstrated earlier in the thread by mdf when it was brought up to begin with.

savageorange said:
[1] only objection I've seen so far is about length of name in tag list, and AFAICS that can be fixed with further aliasing if it turns out to be a real problem.

...oh, right.
That reminded me why I've been pushing for single-word tags such as andromorph/gynomorph.

Feminine_with_penis and masculine_with_pussy have one big problem. Our current standard of tagging sex/sex. As in cuntboy/male, etc.

So how is that going to work? feminine_with_penis/masculine_with_pussy would definitely be a clunky tag. Same goes for feminine_with_penis_on_feral, etc.

GDelscribe said:
One final thing. Id love a personal tagging system but it wouldnt work. What if that user always tags with their personal tags. Would the system be able to handle parsing every individual personal word and mask it personally for users at the same time without causing issues?

If the "Personal Tag System" only lets you swap among a list of aliased tags, then yes, it would. For example, "Gay" is aliased to "Male/Male," so you could swap Male/Male back to Gay, but not to lesbians, as that isn't aliased to that tag. It's a limiter on how much fun you can have with it, but it'll protect tags.

Siral_Exan said:
Yes. Feminine with penis can be mistaken for girly, when read. It even states it in the wiki page: "...and sometimes body type (sans breasts of course)." flat_chested does exist as a tag, for women, and men can be mistakenly tagged with it as well.

As for masculine with pussy, that can be mistaken for females who have muscular bodies, but that's a weaker statement. Kinda hard to not notice breasts, but it can happen if it's overt muscles and less-detailed around the breasts (or, specifically, something that'd be more ambiguous_gender than female)

An ultimate statement is: for feminine with penis, it needs to show breasts. Not all females show breasts, and not all males have masculine bodies. For masculine with pussy, muscles are associated with masculinity, but muscles can be on females (without making them masculine). In order to tell the difference, you'd need to see breasts.

Not quite how it works right now, but I suppose that could be chalked up to mistags anyways. If they aren't mistags now, then it'll be an acceptable complication if we change to that.

savageorange said:
only objection I've seen so far is about length of name in tag list, and AFAICS that can be fixed with further aliasing if it turns out to be a real problem.

and m/pussy would work as shorthand, I think.

savageorange said:
I think GreenReaper's post is a red herring.

Less of a red herring and more of him trying to repeat the route of Treos and MDF. Green, please take a look back a page, those two got into serious trouble for those sorts of arguments.

Genjar said:
...oh, right.
That reminded me why I've been pushing for single-word tags such as andromorph/gynomorph.

Feminine_with_penis and masculine_with_pussy have one big problem. Our current standard of tagging sex/sex. As in cuntboy/male, etc.

So how is that going to work? feminine_with_penis/masculine_with_pussy would definitely be a clunky tag. Same goes for feminine_with_penis_on_feral, etc.

I had primarily the same motivation for altersex/altermale/Alterfemale and Andromorph and Gynomorph cause theyre largely single words whos main objection has been the mild possible confusion they could arouse. And while I do understand that issue (as its been explained to me why exactly theyre confusing now, instead of everyone just saying theyre confusing) I still believe it wouldnt be hard to learn them over time. Especially given that people can still tag with the old tags all they want if they get confused in the interim of learning.

And as Furrin just suggested, m/pussy and f/penis does work as shorthand. Which is nice.

*Edit

I'm gonna make a google forms survey and post the survey here and a couple other relevant places to get the most votes possible from as many people as we can.

Ill also include a field to note what site they came from to be able to localize results to specific places if its decided were only counting in house votes.

Furrin_Gok said:
If the "Personal Tag System" only lets you swap among a list of aliased tags, then yes, it would. For example, "Gay" is aliased to "Male/Male," so you could swap Male/Male back to Gay, but not to lesbians, as that isn't aliased to that tag. It's a limiter on how much fun you can have with it, but it'll protect tags.

Aww . (is there anything on e621 that might reasonably be described as 'strong nuclear horse' ? ;)

But seriously -- in UI design terms, options are generally bad, and options that change individual user experiences in non-obvious ways are worse. That's why I said red herring -- the hypothetical most ideal implementation of it would still be making things worse.

f/penis

and m/pussy would work as shorthand, I think.

Okay, why are code areas huge (font size, compared to normal text)? Weird.

I don't think we should use /, since it's already used for couplings, and using it for both could be weird: "f/penis/m/pussy"

Furrin_Gok said:
If the "Personal Tag System" only lets you swap among a list of aliased tags, then yes, it would. For example, "Gay" is aliased to "Male/Male," so you could swap Male/Male back to Gay, but not to lesbians, as that isn't aliased to that tag. It's a limiter on how much fun you can have with it, but it'll protect tags.

If you are using Firefox, you can do this yourself with an add-on called FoxReplace.

BlueDingo said:
If you are using Firefox, you can do this yourself with an add-on called FoxReplace.

Is that an option for chrome? Just out of curiosity.

GDelscribe said:
Is that an option for chrome? Just out of curiosity.

Of course: Word Replacer II

Ratte said:
Of course: Word Replacer II

Thank you!

savageorange said:
Okay, why are code areas huge (font size, compared to normal text)? Weird.

I'm not seeing that. Might just be you.

I don't think we should use /, since it's already used for couplings, and using it for both could be weird: "f/penis/m/pussy"

Well, it looks fine to me, but we could change it to something else, like f!penis/m!pussy, or come up with alternate shorthands.

Survey Form

GDelscribe said:
Survey Form

That survey is not endorsed by us, and as long as we don't get to see the entire raw data it will go completely ignored by us admins.

It's too easy to skew the results one way or another, especially since you don't need a new log in, just write in yet another random username.

Edit: Read through the survey, it's actually well thought out, just open for abuse thanks to not requiring any form of authorization, and google survey doesn't record IPs so you can't even filter out basic duplicates.

*sigh* "Apply blacklisted users to forum posts, comments, Dmails, and blips"

apparently this doesn't work as intended. -_-

edit: oh and should you check my blacklist, admin or whoever, the reason gdelscribe's username isn't there is for the above reason after i tested that.

treos said:
*sigh* "Apply blacklisted users to forum posts, comments, Dmails, and blips"

apparently this doesn't work as intended. -_-

You have to use "user:username" if I recall correctly.

treos said:
*sigh* "Apply blacklisted users to forum posts, comments, Dmails, and blips"

apparently this doesn't work as intended. -_-

edit: oh and should you check my blacklist, admin or whoever, the reason gdelscribe's username isn't there is for the above reason after i tested that.

user:name

I put it into your blacklist with the correct syntax now, just make sure you have the posts/comments/whatever checkbox ticked so that it works.

Ratte said:
user:name

I put it into your blacklist with the correct syntax now, just make sure you have the posts/comments/whatever checkbox ticked so that it works.

Actually, Ratte, I've been having an identical problem: my blacklisted posts are still showing up in avatars, despite despite having that checked in the box. I'll take this to bug report, though.

Siral_Exan said:
Actually, Ratte, I've been having an identical problem: my blacklisted posts are still showing up in avatars, despite despite having that checked in the box. I'll take this to bug report, though.

Because you are not using the right syntax. The syntax is user:username. You're using id:xxxxxx which doesn't do anything.

Ratte said:
Because you are not using the right syntax. The syntax is user:username. You're using id:xxxxxx which doesn't do anything.

I respecify "identical". It is just IDs for me, I don't blacklist tags; just artists, characters, and specific posts.

Furrin_Gok said:
Green, please take a look back a page, those two got into serious trouble for those sorts of arguments.

Nah, they got dinged for being uncivil about it. There's nothing wrong with discussing the basic issue - that an existing community preference for a term is to be overridden for the sake of getting more art onto e621, and making some people happier about the site.

To date, the debate has been whether this is a trade-off that the e621 community wishes to make. My proposal was for a "third way" which would respect the preferences of all users and artists/character-owners - rather than having one override the other - and so provide higher overall satisfaction.

GDelscribe said:
User preferred tags is nice and all but would probably be hell to implement. And frankly if you want to do that youd defeat the purpose of the alias system outright and thered be no discussion at all.

That depends on what you think the purpose of the alias system is. :-)

I doubt the intention was to impose a non-popular term; rather, the reverse: to use the most common term, in order to improve search/avoid duplicates. This seems like an attempt to subvert that for the sake of social engineering - aliasing terms which are common, but disliked by some.

I don't see that as an appropriate use of this feature. To me, it points to a need for users to be able to opt-in to a preferred version of a tag, and/or for specific posts to display a preferred tag, subject to a user's overriding preference - while still being able to search for both.

Another way of looking at this: it allow some tags to be "shadowed" - they're still there, but only aliases are shown to specific users, or on specific posts. As this is counter to common usage, and a form of censorship, such changes should be user/post-specific, rather than site-wide.

GDelscribe said:
Id love a personal tagging system but it wouldnt work. What if that user always tags with their personal tags. Would the system be able to handle parsing every individual personal word and mask it personally for users at the same time without causing issues?

Depends what you mean by 'issues'. From a technical perspective, the query to display personal tags might be relatively simple - "compare these tags to the aliased/user-preferred display tags for this user/post" and "add the linked tags to searches for other tags" (which may already be done depending on how e6's back-end works). It could be done, and with proper indexing, it should be fast.

That doesn't mean it'd be trivial to create such a system. As before, there's a trade-off; a technical solution may satisfy more people than the proposed aliasing, and could be useful in other situations, but comes with costs in developer time.

Ratte said:
You're using id:xxxxxx which doesn't do anything.

Er, it's completely valid syntax. No clue why it isn't working for Siral Exan for avatars though, I just temporarily blacklisted "id:861532" (and showed avatars) and their avatar got blacklisted.

animperfectpatsy said:
Er, it's completely valid syntax. No clue why it isn't working for Siral Exan for avatars though, I just temporarily blacklisted "id:861532" (and showed avatars) and their avatar got blacklisted.

It's temporary. It reverted after a period of time. I already made a post about this, with details, in the bug report thread, so if you have something to say, please say it there so we don't clog up this thread.

animperfectpatsy said:
Er, it's completely valid syntax. No clue why it isn't working for Siral Exan for avatars though, I just temporarily blacklisted "id:861532" (and showed avatars) and their avatar got blacklisted.

I had misread thinking that Siral was trying to ignore a user, not just a singular post.

Anyway, yeah, the topic thing.