Topic: [APPROVED] The Great Cub Apocalypse

Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions

The bulk update request #5960 is active.

remove alias colt (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias puppies (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias hatchling (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias littlefur (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kemoshota (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias cub/cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias cubs (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias filly (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias pups (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias duckling (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kittens (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias puppy (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kitten (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias fawn (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kidfur (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias foal (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication cub (0) -> young (257091)
remove implication pregnant_cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication pregnant_cub (0) -> pregnant (37233)
remove implication adult_on_cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication muscular_cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication cub_domination (0) -> young_domination (0)
remove alias cubdom (0) -> cub_domination (0)
remove alias cub_dom (0) -> cub_domination (0)

Reason:

Followup

alias colt -> young
alias puppies -> young
alias hatchling -> young
alias littlefur -> young
alias kemoshota -> young_male
alias cub/cub -> young_on_young
alias cubs -> young
alias filly -> young
alias pups -> young
alias duckling -> young
alias kittens -> young
alias puppy -> young
alias kitten -> young
alias fawn -> young
alias kidfur -> young
alias foal -> young
alias cub -> young

Followup (Current Implications)

alias pregnant_cub -> underage_pregnancy
imply underage_pregnancy -> pregnant
imply underage_pregnancy -> young
alias pregnant_young -> underage_pregnancy
alias adult_on_cub -> adult_on_young
imply adult_on_young -> young
alias muscular_cub -> muscular_young
imply muscular_young -> young
imply muscular_young -> muscular
alias cub_domination -> dominant_young
alias cubdom -> dominant_young
alias cub_dom -> dominant_young
alias young_domination -> dominant_young
imply dominant_young -> young
imply dominant_young -> dominant

AIBUR to reject

This has been a long time coming. The usages of cub can vary wildly from person to person, despite what the wiki or anyone says. Even amongst staff, there have been inconsistent applications of the tag, and tag locks. No one can agree on how it should be used, and even mentioning the tag with some can cause heated arguments. Thus follows this proposal, completely getting rid of the tag. As it stands, its a weird combination of young + anthro + feral, and some want it to be an even more specific as pre-teen + anthro + feral. I see no reason for this arbitrary combination tag for either definition. A system of young_<bodytype> could do the job better, and less controversially. For the other definition some have, one of baby, toddler, or child should be used in conjunction with young_<bodytype>.

Ensue 100 page discussion

EDIT: The bulk update request #5960 (forum #383140) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

The bulk update request #5961 is active.

remove alias young_human (9026) -> young (257091)

Reason: With the aliasing of cub, body types can be used to fill the gap. young_human was aliased with no discussion in 2013.
https://e621.net/tag_aliases/3938

Followup

imply young_anthro -> young
imply young_anthro -> anthro
imply young_feral -> young
imply young_feral -> feral
imply young_taur -> young
imply young_taur -> taur
imply young_human -> young
imply young_human -> human
imply young_humanoid -> young
imply young_humanoid -> humanoid

EDIT: The bulk update request #5961 (forum #383143) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated

Very much +1, this is long overdue. Being here well over 10 years I've seen a lot of disagreements and conflicting advice from admins, "cub is only for characters 12 and under", "cub is only for explicit images", and etc.

pleaseletmein said:
we have gendered tags for body shapes (muscular female, fat male, athletic gynomorph, etc.), I feel like young kinda falls into this category as well.

1000% agree, but I'd rather not derail this particular discussion too much, cub just needs to be put out of its misery already.

loli and shota also have a long history of misuse and I'd love to see them get nuked in favour of young_male and young_female - this way would also be intersex-inclusive. Tags like young_intersex, young_gynomorph, etc. already exist but their usage is minimal and they're yet to be canonised with implications. Other things that already exist with implications seem very arbitrary in comparison to young (bottomless_female, male_prey, slightly_chubby_female, submissive_male)

I'd say "somebody should make a BUR for this" but I'm sure there's a few that exist already.

alias muscular_cub -> muscular
alias muscular_young -> muscular

I think I'd prefer both of these aliased to young if they're being aliased away, it would be best to alias to the most objectionable and even potentially illegal in some jurisdictions tag just in case the cub/young tag wasn't additionally included upon upload.

Watsit

Privileged

One thing that will need to be looked at before the followup BUR can go through, is to deal with the posts that have +young -cub locked. After the cub->young alias, the posts would end up with +young -young locked, which I doubt would work well.

watsit said:
One thing that will need to be looked at before the followup BUR can go through, is to deal with the posts that have +young -cub locked. After the cub->young alias, the posts would end up with +young -young locked, which I doubt would work well.

Would be interesting to see how it plays out though

While we’re at it, I personally think we should change "young" to "underage".

I have cub, loli and shota blacklisted instead of young because I see posts where characters who are adults but aren’t old, around 20 years of age, tagged as "young".

Maybe we should do a cleanup of young -cub -loli -shota?

dimoretpinel said:
While we’re at it, I personally think we should change "young" to "underage".

I have cub, loli and shota blacklisted instead of young because I see posts where characters who are adults but aren’t old, around 20 years of age, tagged as "young".

Maybe we should do a cleanup of young -cub -loli -shota?

I think doing that would just cause the tag to have the exact same issues we are trying to avoid by getting rid of cub in the first place.
You could also blacklist ~baby ~toddler ~child ~teenager but I am not sure if those tags are currently used enough to have the desired effect.

dimoretpinel said:
While we’re at it, I personally think we should change "young" to "underage".

I have cub, loli and shota blacklisted instead of young because I see posts where characters who are adults but aren’t old, around 20 years of age, tagged as "young".

Maybe we should do a cleanup of young -cub -loli -shota?

Changing that is really out of the scope of this, and trying to patch that in here would make this take literally years, assuming it won't already

dimoretpinel said:
For example, post #4481167 and post #4453712
post #4481167 post #4453712
Tagged young, but I don’t see how it fits the post?

I think lalafell just inherently look like children, and the second image could be considered an edge case, but in those cases people generally err on the side of caution and add the tag.
It's not really about whether or not a character is a child, but whether someone could reasonably assume the character is not an adult just from the way they look.

alias muscular_young -> young

Is there some reason why we're not allowed to have this tag?

faucet said:
loli and shota also have a long history of misuse and I'd love to see them get nuked in favour of young_male and young_female - this way would also be intersex-inclusive. Tags like young_intersex, young_gynomorph, etc. already exist but their usage is minimal and they're yet to be canonised with implications. Other things that already exist with implications seem very arbitrary in comparison to young (bottomless_female, male_prey, slightly_chubby_female, submissive_male)

I'd say "somebody should make a BUR for this" but I'm sure there's a few that exist already.

topic #31357

Wait, do we have tags to differenciate when a character looks young, to when a character is canonically young? Do we have a young lore tag?

themasterpotato said:
I think doing that would just cause the tag to have the exact same issues we are trying to avoid by getting rid of cub in the first place.

I don’t think so.

It is unclear if cub means "looks childlike" (is prepubescent) or if it means "looks under 18" (same usage as young).

And it seems to me, despite your explanation of the "edge case", that people misinterpret young as "looks young in general" rather than "looks under 18". I think the misunderstanding is exacerbated by the amount of other tags there is to designate children and characters under 18 (baby toddler child cub loli shota teenager).

This website is hosted in the US, therefore "underage" would refer to "underage in the United States specifically", aka "looks under 18".

It is a lot more clear and straight-forward to me.

However, it seems we’re not going to be dealing with young mistags in this thread.

wat8548 said:
Is there some reason why we're not allowed to have this tag?

We don't need to expand to every single X_Y tag out there

Updated

dimoretpinel said:
because I see posts where characters who are adults but aren’t old, around 20 years of age, tagged as "young".

Those are mistagged then, please remove the tag if they genuinely do look like adults. The young tag is for underage

Renaming it could be a good idea, would be less ambiguous, but I agree with Donovan that now just isn't the time

wat8548 said:
It stands out because that's the only one in the list you've aliased away completely. Considering the large number of popular muscular* tags as well as the high proportion of irrelevant results in the search muscular young, I see no reason why that should be made an exception.

I aliased it because the only version we had, muscular_cub, is also getting aliased,
muscular young was never used. It doesn't have implications, and muscular_cub didn't even imply muscular. When asked internally if we could come up with a better name than muscular_young (since that doesn't really grammar well), this was brought up:

Okay, hot take. Do we need that tag at all
It also implies the existence of things like overweight young and I’m not sure we want to go down that road either

Allowing something like this allows for just about any arbitrary adjective to be stuck in front, and validated because "muscular_young exists, why can't this?". It's the only one aliased away completely because it didn't really fit.

Also, two individuals populating a tag doesn't really make it valid and worth keeping.

Updated

dimoretpinel said:
This website is hosted in the US, therefore "underage" would refer to "underage in the United States specifically", aka "looks under 18".

It is a lot more clear and straight-forward to me.

I'm just saying that "underage" is a lot more loaded term than "young", and I can see it causing more drama because of that.

If I understand things correctly... in the current way, cub means "young and furry", while young alone means "young, furry or not"; And should this BUR go through, the possible way of separating these types would be by searching either young -<species> or young -not_furry?

I guess it feels more organized, but I'm not sure about how reliable it is, I feel that more often than not, tagging cub is easier to be remembered than tagging species.

donovan_dmc said:
I aliased it because the only version we had, muscular_cub, is also getting aliased,

Yes, but why can't it be aliased to muscular_young (or equivalent)?

donovan_dmc said:
Allowing something like this allows for just about any arbitrary adjective to be stuck in front, and validated because "muscular_young exists, why can't this?". It's the only one aliased away completely because it didn't really fit.

Slippery slope aside, muscular_young is an inherently interesting tagging concept because it is not expected or common for young characters to be muscular. This is particularly relevant to the common scenario of a muscular adult fucking a non-muscular young character, which there will no longer be any easy way to filter out.

You might as well say pregnant_loli should be aliased to young.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with an overweight_young tag.

so, since this seems like this is going to go through, can we please be given some deadline on when we'd need to have performed the full cub -> young_<form> cleanup before the alias is made permanent?

it'd be unfortunate if we dumped cub into the sea of young before we all got a chance to use it for all the tagging potential it's worth.

m3g4p0n1 said:
If I understand things correctly... in the current way, cub means "young and furry", while young alone means "young, furry or not"; And should this BUR go through, the possible way of separating these types would be by searching either young -<species> or young -not_furry?

I guess it feels more organized, but I'm not sure about how reliable it is, I feel that more often than not, tagging cub is easier to be remembered than tagging species.

It would be searched with ~young_anthro ~young_feral
Edit: ~young_anthro ~young_feral ~young_taur I suppose

Updated

sipothac said:
so, since this seems like this is going to go through, can we please be given some deadline on when we'd need to have performed the full cub -> young_<form> cleanup before the alias is made permanent?

it'd be unfortunate if we dumped cub into the sea of young before we all got a chance to use it for all the tagging potential it's worth.

I'm not sure it's worth anything. Who knows how many young anthro/feral/taur images have already been tagged "young" and nothing else, especially those subject to the divergent whims of the admins. And since every cub image needs manual attention anyway to distinguish between the three (at least) forms, and we can't even use the young_human tag until the second BUR has been approved, it seems that it might be less work overall to wait until after the alias.

wat8548 said:
Yes, but why can't it be aliased to muscular_young (or equivalent)?
Slippery slope aside, muscular_young is an inherently interesting tagging concept because it is not expected or common for young characters to be muscular. This is particularly relevant to the common scenario of a muscular adult fucking a non-muscular young character, which there will no longer be any easy way to filter out.

You might as well say pregnant_loli should be aliased to young.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with an overweight_young tag.

Personally, I'd be fine with a muscular_young / muscular_youth tag for the reasons you described, and any other variations

Since multiple people seem to want the muscular young tag, I'll remove the alias

I feel like there's gonna be a massive uproar from the normies when they found out the cub tag got aliased, somehow.

what's the consensus of young_gender tags? i.e: young_male young_female young_intersex hell even young_null if that could happen.

I can see it fixing the problem for a time... until artists complain about their art being tagged young and getting trouble with Patreon or w/e lol, it will just move goal posts about complaining somewhat.

wat8548 said:
I'm not sure it's worth anything. Who knows how many young anthro/feral/taur images have already been tagged "young" and nothing else

I mean, this is inevitably going to be constantly true, there are always going to be posts that are undertagged or improperly tagged

wat8548 said:
especially those subject to the divergent whims of the admins.

the tag locks, at least, are always going to be readily visible, so that's not much of a big deal. the sudden redefinition as of a few months ago will probably mean that there are some posts that lack the tag that would have had it previously, but that's probably going to be true for recent posts-- assuming someone didn't go out of their way to propagate that change back to older posts.

wat8548 said:
since every cub image needs manual attention anyway to distinguish between the three (at least) forms, and we can't even use the young_human tag until the second BUR has been approved, it seems that it might be less work overall to wait until after the alias.

I think it'd probably be best to have young_anthro (currently 45 posts) and young_feral (entirely empty) at least decently well populated prior to nuking cub in order to minimize the impact the transition is going to have on normal users. having a tag you use get killed because its use case is invalid and having the valid alternatives under/un-populated would be a very frustrating experience.

also, in my experience it's much easier to do stuff in smaller bits, and when the parameters you're looking for are fewer. cub is about 40% smaller than the full young tag, which is a fairly significantly smaller amount of posts, and having to only focus on adding young_anthro and young_feral makes the job a lot quicker.

wat8548 said:
we can't even use the young_human tag until the second BUR has been approved

you can always add posts to sets and deal with adding the actual tags after the BUR.

notknow said:
I can see it fixing the problem for a time... until artists complain about their art being tagged young and getting trouble with Patreon or w/e lol, it will just move goal posts about complaining somewhat.

The point of the alias isn't to make artists happy. It's getting rid of a weird combination tag that doesn't need to exist.

notknow said:
I can see it fixing the problem for a time... until artists complain about their art being tagged young and getting trouble with Patreon or w/e lol, it will just move goal posts about complaining somewhat.

To be fair the cub tag has the same issues, and I'd argue it's worse since it automatically makes most think of cub porn.

sipothac said:
I think it'd probably be best to have young_anthro (currently 45 posts) and young_feral (entirely empty) at least decently well populated prior to nuking cub in order to minimize the impact the transition is going to have on normal users. having a tag you use get killed because its use case is invalid and having the valid alternatives under/un-populated would be a very frustrating experience.

also, in my experience it's much easier to do stuff in smaller bits, and when the parameters you're looking for are fewer. cub is about 40% smaller than the full young tag, which is a fairly significantly smaller amount of posts, and having to only focus on adding young_anthro and young_feral makes the job a lot quicker.

What if cub gets mass updated to young_anthro, and then we fix the mistags?

m3g4p0n1 said:
What if cub gets mass updated to young_anthro, and then we fix the mistags?

I feel very unsure about that.
Lots of people don’t like feral porn because it’s too close to bestiality for them, just like lots of people don’t like cub porn either.
There will definitely be lots of complaints if an anthro search gives back feral results.

I’m currently going through cub feral to replace the cub tag by the new young feral tag. It currently has 8 posts in it now.
However, I won’t be able to do much more today. But I’d rather do this than a risky mass update.

dimoretpinel said:
While we’re at it, I personally think we should change "young" to "underage".

I have cub, loli and shota blacklisted instead of young because I see posts where characters who are adults but aren’t old, around 20 years of age, tagged as "young".

Maybe we should do a cleanup of young -cub -loli -shota?

Loli and Shota are their own cans of worm, only NSFW art of underage characters can be tagged these. There are a vast number of posts you ain't blacklisting by blacklisting loli and shota.

donovan_dmc said:

notknow said:
I can see it fixing the problem for a time... until artists complain about their art being tagged young and getting trouble with Patreon or w/e lol, it will just move goal posts about complaining somewhat.

The point of the alias isn't to make artists happy. It's getting rid of a weird combination tag that doesn't need to exist.

Additionally, cub has already implied young for many years now, so there's literally no difference when it comes to that point.

dimoretpinel said:
I’m currently going through cub feral to replace the cub tag by the new young feral tag. It currently has 8 posts in it now.
However, I won’t be able to do much more today. But I’d rather do this than a risky mass update.

you probably shouldn't be replacing the tag; for now cub is still a valid tag that users potentially have blacklisted.

TL;DR Populate the new tags before aliasing cub. Just need young_feral done. See my plan. This is doable with enough help.

This is a vote to make search worse now with a proposal that improves search whenever the young_A and young_B tags reach parity with cub. My gatekeep is... 1000 post edits with any of +young_anthro, +young_feral, -cub (remove mistags) per voter and before the BURs go through. A lot of voters have over 10K tag edits, so they know what this entails. Prove your dedication and investment to this issue. Talk is cheap. Just start tagging. Usually, aliases and implications don't make search worse, but not this time. This will make search worse before the replacement tags get implemented.

Ideally:

cub feral -young_feral -young_anthro = 0
cub -feral -anthro = 0
cub feral -> -cub
update cub -> young_anthro
alias cub -> young

If enough people actually care about making this change, then this plan is perfectly achievable. I bumped up young_feral +100 from the oldest cub feral posts to judge the work and sanity check myself. The main challenges were pokemon (anthro vs feral), semi-anthros, tiny posts, and really bad anatomy. The old posts have bad feral vs anthro tagging. Young mistags weren't much of an issue, which I echo below. I did rating:e to potentially spare cub blacklisters the anguish of tagging those.

I put that first--the important part--because this thread demonstrably doesn't care about what I'm about to say lol... In fact, I'll just section it off.

As for the BUR reasons... I don't think these issues exist in the wild, not at a scale that justifies these changes. Cub is not mistagged much, which is what matters. Taggers don't really demonstrate confusion about the cub age range, but they are confused about when a character is teenager (=young=cub), which is not a cub issue. Only going to mention cub vs lore age (the tag's main issue) to dismiss it--that is an issue with enforcing young tagging, which is not a cub-specific issue. Taking a quick gander at cub -feral -anthro, most are anthro or feral with a few obvious humanoids and many more that are arguably humanoid (no snout, weak nose) but most taggers will default them to anthro. And that's all the cub tag is. Cub actually is decently tagged, and when compared to other high-use tags, cub is actually tagged much better than most. The supposed confusion about what cub is does not demonstrably exist for the average cub tagger.

The other issue is... I've toned this down... unfortunate. A bad look. "We didn't read our own wiki," in a nutshell, "and now that we have, we don't know what's correct." Yes, cub is an old furry-ism, a made-up idea (based on reality) that we gave a workable definition and enforced as such. Cub isn't special. We have a lot of large, made-up tags that we use for things with shaky or no real world equivalency, like anthros, humanoids, and oftentimes ferals, which have worse tagging than cub. These tags are always dangerous because we can never fall back onto reality to show us what's right if their meaning comes into dispute. Ergo, resolving these disputes is the same as saying "because I said so." When dealing with made-up tags, no one is ever truly "correct." You decide a few things, try to make the tag sensible, maintain that vision, and maybe refine it later.

How I see this thread's sentiment is exhaustion with the cub tag, which I would accept as a better reason than those given. Just say it, "We don't want to deal with this tag anymore, and we found a way out." Hell, "this tag was standardized 13 years ago and we no longer want to support it" is also fine. No more explanation needed. I'd even say, "works better as autocomplete young_* tags" is a good reason. I do not think this change solves any pressing issues. This should only shift cub's stigma to young, but idk maybe cub is more of a slur to furries than young ever will be. young_anthro and young_feral will implicate anthro and feral which cub cannot, so that's a small win but doesn't justify wiping out a 140K use tag with decent tagging.

I'm actually in favor of clearer tag names and less required reading in wikis since people don't read wikis in 2023. I don't oppose this change. I do oppose the reasons given. I do not think the voters care much about the specific reasons either. It's not a big deal.

Updated

wat8548 said:
Yes, but why can't it be aliased to muscular_young (or equivalent)?
Slippery slope aside, muscular_young is an inherently interesting tagging concept because it is not expected or common for young characters to be muscular. This is particularly relevant to the common scenario of a muscular adult fucking a non-muscular young character, which there will no longer be any easy way to filter out.

You might as well say pregnant_loli should be aliased to young.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with an overweight_young tag.

I was the one who originally suggested getting rid of it, and mostly because the tag name doesn’t make sense and the tag itself is not in very good shape. I’m not against having it, but that does mean we’ll need to look into establishing similar body type tags for them such as overweight and obese as well.

I don’t have a problem with removing the alias from this BUR since it’s otherwise just going to get in the way, and it’s not the point. If anyone wants to have a tag such as muscular_young (or preferably a tag with better grammar), then clean up the current results and make a BUR to establish them as new tags, along with overweight and whatever else would fit there. Or at least just make the BUR. That way we can get a vote from the community to establish their perceived usefulness.

abadbird said:

I'm actually in favor of clearer tag names and less required reading in wikis since people don't read wikis in 2023. I don't oppose this change. I do oppose the reasons given. I do not think the voters care much about the specific reasons either. It's not a big deal.

There are certainly a lot of reasons for this, many of which have not been mentioned here. This idea was discussed internally before this thread was created, and several other points came up there too, but it’s probably not worth reiterating everything here. My biggest issue personally is that cub is seen by furries as more of a slur, as you pointed out, while young is not. There’s a lot of drama around the word “cub” and it none of that is worth the tag. That, and lumping young ferals together with young anthros never made any sense from a searching perspective in the first place, so… we’re keeping a nonsensical tag burdened with unnecessary amounts of drama simply because it’s always been there.

I do agree with you that we should populate the other tags before nuking cub, though. This probably won’t be approved too quickly, so we have time.

Watsit

Privileged

dimoretpinel said:
Will there be a tag for young semi-anthros specifically?

Probably not, semi-anthro is supplemental to characters already tagged feral or anthro, and shouldn't be included in all the tag combos as if it was another form.

The bulk update request #5970 is active.

create implication young_anthro (142551) -> young (257091)
create implication young_anthro (142551) -> anthro (3065369)
create implication young_feral (22338) -> young (257091)
create implication young_feral (22338) -> feral (582402)
create implication young_taur (167) -> young (257091)
create implication young_taur (167) -> taur (17104)
create implication young_human (9026) -> young (257091)
create implication young_human (9026) -> human (365573)
create implication young_humanoid (11849) -> young (257091)
create implication young_humanoid (11849) -> humanoid (437429)

Reason: Followup for https://e621.net/forum_topics/41659?page=1#forum_post_383143

EDIT: The bulk update request #5970 (forum #383372) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

donovan_dmc said:
The bulk update request #5960 is active.

remove alias colt (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias puppies (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias hatchling (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias littlefur (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kemoshota (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias cub/cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias cubs (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias filly (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias pups (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias duckling (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kittens (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias puppy (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kitten (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias fawn (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias kidfur (0) -> cub (0)
remove alias foal (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication cub (0) -> young (257091)
remove implication pregnant_cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication pregnant_cub (0) -> pregnant (37233)
remove implication adult_on_cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication muscular_cub (0) -> cub (0)
remove implication cub_domination (0) -> young_domination (0)
remove alias cubdom (0) -> cub_domination (0)
remove alias cub_dom (0) -> cub_domination (0)

Reason:

Followup

alias colt -> young
alias puppies -> young
alias hatchling -> young
alias littlefur -> young
alias kemoshota -> young_male
alias cub/cub -> young_on_young
alias cubs -> young
alias filly -> young
alias pups -> young
alias duckling -> young
alias kittens -> young
alias puppy -> young
alias kitten -> young
alias fawn -> young
alias kidfur -> young
alias foal -> young
alias cub -> young

Followup (Current Implications)

alias pregnant_cub -> underage_pregnancy
imply underage_pregnancy -> pregnant
imply underage_pregnancy -> young
alias pregnant_young -> underage_pregnancy
alias adult_on_cub -> adult_on_young
imply adult_on_young -> young
alias muscular_cub -> muscular_young
imply muscular_young -> young
imply muscular_young -> muscular
alias cub_domination -> young_domination
alias cubdom -> young_domination
alias cub_dom -> young_domination
imply young_domination -> young

AIBUR to reject

This has been a long time coming. The usages of cub can vary wildly from person to person, despite what the wiki or anyone says. Even amongst staff, there have been inconsistent applications of the tag, and tag locks. No one can agree on how it should be used, and even mentioning the tag with some can cause heated arguments. Thus follows this proposal, completely getting rid of the tag. As it stands, its a weird combination of young + anthro + feral, and some want it to be an even more specific as pre-teen + anthro + feral. I see no reason for this arbitrary combination tag for either definition. A system of young_<bodytype> could do the job better, and less controversially. For the other definition some have, one of baby, toddler, or child should be used in conjunction with young_<bodytype>.

Ensue 100 page discussion

About time.. I recommended this like one morbillion years ago. So happy to see that we're making progress on this.

alias cub_domination -> young_domination
alias cubdom -> young_domination
alias cub_dom -> young_domination
imply young_domination -> young

We should alias all of these to dominant_young to match all the other domination aliases. Possibly audit them as well to make sure none of the mistags that prompted the creation of those aliases have happened here, but it's not like we don't have our hands full already.

EDIT: https://e621.net/forum_topics/36680?page=1#forum_post_353935 Although the proposed part 2 seems incomplete - younger_dom_older_sub and its antonym still have no implications.

Updated

strikerman said:
Personally, I'd be fine with a muscular_young / muscular_youth tag for the reasons you described, and any other variations

I kinda like using "youth" as the noun form of "young" for <adjective>_<noun> tag forms, it sounds much better than using *_young. although, I think for some people "a youth" might only be used for adolescents, rather than minors in general, so that _might_ be a problem.

sipothac said:
I kinda like using "youth" as the noun form of "young" for <adjective>_<noun> tag forms, it sounds much better than using *_young. although, I think for some people "a youth" might only be used for adolescents, rather than minors in general, so that _might_ be a problem.

The dictionary definition of “youth” does specifically mention it as a synonym for adolescent, so this may be an issue. The word can also refer to any young person, but that seems to be a more general secondary definition.
Only problem is that I can’t think of any term that works better for our purposes.

benjiboyo said:
Btw...we're still not touching shota and loli just yet i assume?

with some cleanup of intersex characters I think those could be aliased to young male and young female pretty easily.

they're in a similar situation to cub where they're a weird combination tag of age (young, sometimes excluding teenagers), form (human, humanoid, sometimes anthro, sometimes taur, never feral), gender (definitely male and female, sometimes intersex), and level of sexualization.

Updated

Fantastic to see this getting done.

"Cub" was a wildly misused and often useless tag.

A quick comparative "riolu cub" and "riolu -cub" search shows just how arbitrary and meaningless a tag it had become.

donovan_dmc said:
I've created a tagme project for this

https://tagme.dev/projects/cub_body_types

I've made a couple of clones of this project, with all forms excluded except for anthro and feral respectively:

https://tagme.dev/projects/cub_body_types_a
https://tagme.dev/projects/cub_body_types_f

This reduces the number of questions that need to be answered per post to one. The original project is still needed for more complex cases, but hopefully this'll help break up the work.

EDIT: Aaand I hit edit limit. That's going to be quite the impediment to getting this done fast.

Updated

alphamule said:
Only downvoted because gonna be such a pain...

bad alpha, that's not a good reason to downvote

we thrive off of being a pain

The bulk update request #5980 is active.

create alias colt (0) -> young (257091)
create alias puppies (0) -> young (257091)
create alias hatchling (0) -> young (257091)
create alias littlefur (0) -> young (257091)
create alias kemoshota (0) -> young_male (40690)
create alias cub/cub (0) -> young_on_young (9230)
create alias cubs (0) -> young (257091)
create alias filly (0) -> young (257091)
create alias pups (0) -> young (257091)
create alias duckling (0) -> young (257091)
create alias kittens (0) -> young (257091)
create alias puppy (0) -> young (257091)
create alias kitten (0) -> young (257091)
create alias fawn (0) -> young (257091)
create alias kidfur (0) -> young (257091)
create alias foal (0) -> young (257091)

Reason: Followup https://e621.net/forum_topics/41659?page=1#forum_post_383140

EDIT: The bulk update request #5980 (forum #383496) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

The bulk update request #5981 is active.

create alias pregnant_cub (0) -> underage_pregnancy (1018)
create implication underage_pregnancy (1018) -> pregnant (37233)
create implication underage_pregnancy (1018) -> young (257091)
create alias pregnant_young (0) -> underage_pregnancy (1018)
create alias adult_on_cub (0) -> adult_on_young (10550)
create implication adult_on_young (10550) -> young (257091)
create alias muscular_cub (0) -> muscular_young (1176)
create implication muscular_young (1176) -> young (257091)
create implication muscular_young (1176) -> muscular (414779)
create alias cub_domination (0) -> dominant_young (2346)
create alias cubdom (0) -> dominant_young (2346)
create alias cub_dom (0) -> dominant_young (2346)
create alias young_domination (0) -> dominant_young (2346)
create implication dominant_young (2346) -> young (257091)
create implication dominant_young (2346) -> dominant (139396)

Reason: Followup https://e621.net/forum_topics/41659?page=1#forum_post_383140

EDIT: The bulk update request #5981 (forum #383498) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

alphamule

Privileged

topic #41653 For reference, related recent discussion.

Yeah, I can help but it's going to be slow going. I'll have to reread these 2 topics to get onboard, for one. Like, feral cub -> young_feral going to be/not be used, etc.

Updated

alphamule said:
post #41653 For reference, related recent discussion.

Yeah, I can help but it's going to be slow going. I'll have to reread these 2 topics to get onboard, for one. Like, feral cub -> young_feral going to be/not be used, etc.

post # doesn't link to a forum topic
you're looking for topic #

alphamule

Privileged

sipothac said:
man, there is like, _a lot_ of stuff that's tagged feral in here that probably shouldn't be.

I looked at first page of results (250) and only saw post #4395058 so far that MIGHT not be feral (because of the hands but Char* family is bipedal so...). I didn't go through the other 52 pages. Yeah, cub should probably have always been only for ferals, and some other tag for anthros, etc. Oh well. We'll figure it out, eventually. Wish we had started on this 10+ years ago, haha.

50-52: I don't think any of them fail to include at least one feral character. Got examples?

Updated

alphamule said:
I looked at first page of results (250) and only saw post #4395058 so far that MIGHT not be feral (because of the hands but Char* family is bipedal so...). I didn't go through the other 52 pages. Yeah, cub should probably have always been only for ferals, and some other tag for anthros, etc. Oh well. We'll figure it out, eventually. Wish we had started on this 10+ years ago, haha.

50-52: I don't think any of them fail to include at least one feral character. Got examples?

I was going through the posts in order:random and getting at least one in the first twelve posts every refresh, might have just been luck of the draw, I'm not finding that many now.

here's a few that I've found just now or have been edited recently.
post #4208700 post #1979886 post #1705369 post #883353 post #2335815 post #2687487 post #2200450 post #3494240 post #825954

So, it's effectively dead right? I start using young_form instead of cub?

Oh also, earlopian might wanna remove cub from the cententious content example.