Topic: [FAILED] BUR: Rubber vs Latex, A Tight and Sticky Situation

Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions

The bulk update request #5782 is active.

create alias rubber (11) -> latex (48686)

Reason: Public opinion across several forum topics has shown that the community wants to resolve the rubber vs latex tagging issue. Opinions have shifted significantly over time, with varying stances on how best to settle it. Distinctions have been drawn between industrial vs fetish wear, liquid-like latex vs solid rubber and technical definitions of latex vs rubber. For far too long we have been prisoners in some tight nebulously defined latex-rubber-polymer bodysuit of ambiguous material with no escape in sight. I brought this subject to the attention of Rainbow_Dash, and was advised to open a BUR to restart this discussion.

I have done my best to create a list of various forum topics and BURs on this subject. I have summarized the general consensus of the discussion / the outcome of the discussions, but obviously I can't summarize all the details here.

See sources below:

  • (1) https://e621.net/forum_topics/31033 - alias latex_clothing -> rubber_clothing [Rejected, concerns about latex being a kind of rubber but not rubber itself]
  • (2) https://e621.net/forum_topics/31106 - Discussion of latex and rubber differences, remove alias latex -> rubber [Accepted, lots of discussion on TWYS and the distinction between fetish wear vs industrial wear]
  • (3) https://e621.net/forum_topics/36113 - alias latex_clothing -> polymer_clothing [The idea was specific subtypes could be tagged from polymer_clothing, rejected so discussion take place]
  • (4) https://e621.net/forum_topics/36227 - Discussion of latex_clothing -> polymer_clothing [Public opinion shifts towards Latex becoming the main tag]
  • (5) https://e621.net/forum_topics/37375 - BUR to alias latex_clothing tags and a BUR to alias rubber_clothing to latex_clothing [Public opinion shifts towards Latex becoming the main tag]

Generally we have a few lingering issues to address.

1. Is it realistic to ask users to distinguish between latex / rubber material? If not, then should we alias all rubber tags to latex?

2. How do we tag posts where the latex clothing is 'liquid'?

3. How do we tag posts where the latex clothing is for some specific situation (medical latex gloves or industrial rubber boots / hazmat suits)?

It is my opinion that the popular usage of the term 'latex' to refer to solid rubber clothing and other polymer type clothing should win out. Under the TWYS policy it is not realistic to expect users to differentiate between distinct types of polymer clothing. All these different types of polymer have a lot of visual similarity and across many fetish communities the terms are used interchangeably. The term latex is so closely tied to latex clothing that the Wikipedia page states 'The word latex is also used to refer to natural latex rubber, particularly non-vulcanized rubber. Such is the case in products like latex gloves, latex condoms and latex clothing.', now obviously Wikipedia is not a definitive source but it is a representation of what term people tend to use. There is even a page for Latex Clothing. It would be cleaner to have a single family of latex clothing tags, then add tags such as 'glistening_clothing' or 'liquid_latex' to individual posts to help distinguish situations where the material has different characteristics. For industrial or medical type clothing which happens to be made of latex, it may make more sense to use or create tags like 'medical' / 'medical_clothing' or similar to distinguish those posts from more fetish clothing type posts. Even if rubber is the preferred name for this group of tags, then the alias should just be flipped around.

This issue has been ongoing for years now and I think we really ought to wriggle our way out of this uncomfortably tight and sticky discussion.

Depending on how this develops, additional BURs can be created to encompass more tags with this topic serving as the "Forum Topic" for them.

EDIT: The bulk update request #5782 (forum #380636) has failed: Error: Alias would modify other aliases or implications through transitive relationships. (create alias rubber -> latex)

EDIT: The bulk update request #5782 (forum #380636) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

Cloudpie

Privileged

+1 for rubber_* aliasing to latex_*

2. How do we tag posts where the latex clothing is 'liquid'?

I agree with the liquid_latex tag being used for this

Updated

Well damn!

As the initiator of the Latex ≠ Rubber debates (topic #31106 and topic #36227 ), I can’t help but feel a bit guilty about this “Tight and Sticky Situation”.

~~~~~~

Regarding the ‘lingering issues’:

1. In hindsight, it isn’t. They all appear the same (as I’ve mentioned in some of the previous topics).

2. We just use the liquid_latex tag.

3. This is definitely something worth to discuss with more people. Nevertheless, it shouldn’t affect the rubber -> latex alias. As you suggested, we could use the industrial_* or medical_* prefixes for such occasions.

~~~~~~

Fingers crossed that the rubber -> latex aliases will be resolved soon.

I’m happy this wasn’t so contentious. Why don’t we try digging up the pending BURs and linking them here? If we gather them together it might be easier for site staff to handle them. Especially since this is a more current forum topic, so it’s more likely to get noticed.

EDIT: It will also help us keep track of everything and discuss the specifics in one place.

Updated

So what IS the difference, tag-wise, between the latex "bdsm fetish wear" and "ordinary" latex bodysuits?

donteven said:
So what IS the difference, tag-wise, between the latex "bdsm fetish wear" and "ordinary" latex bodysuits?

The ordinary objects need own tags to distinguish them from the fetish wear ones. In the past, concerns were brought up that for example if someone looks for rain boots they would need to search through a lot of bdsm latex boots to find them, because both types consist out of latex/are visually identical to latex and thus get tagged as such. But we have the tag "rain_boots", so in case someone wants a picture with them and not the fetish wear ones they can search that.

Another example that was brought up in the latex vs. rubber discussion are medical gloves. Currently aliased to latex gloves, what they shouldn't. Not because they might be out of a different material like nitrile (as someone, who works with them I can tell you latex and nitrile can't be perfectly be told apart unless you touch them yourself), but because medical gloves have a distinct appearance that is different from other latex gloves. We should change that to medical_gloves implying latex_gloves.

Non-fetish wear latex bodysuits I can think of would be hazmat suits and wetsuits, both have their own tags.

The bulk update request #5790 is active.

remove alias medical_glove (0) -> latex_gloves (5677)
remove alias medical_gloves (338) -> latex_gloves (5677)
remove implication latex_boots (1047) -> rubber_boots (98)
remove alias wellington_boots (0) -> rubber_boots (98)

Reason: Now that the 'alias rubber to latex' issue is settled, I suggest working on tags for distinct types of non-fetish latex clothing. So stuff like... medical_gloves, as well as cleaning up backwards implications like latex_boots -> rubber_boots.

post #3919661 post #3759622 post #2308548

I agree with @DemonTheDarkHound, I think medical_gloves should be a separate tag due to their distinct appearance and to separate medical-themed posts from pure latex posts.

wellington_boots are a kind of water-proof boots, it might make sense to use this tag for non-fetish latex boots. But this does refer to a specific style of boot so maybe 'Rain_boots' would make a good main tag and then different styles of non-fetish latex footwear could be added later. Or a new tag could be made like 'water_proof_boots'. Any ideas?

post #4390368 post #4091038

Rain_boots isn't very common (<50 posts currently) but I still think it would be better to have a tag for latex boots that aren't purely 'fetish-wear'. As @DemonTheDarkHound said Hazmat / Wetsuits already have their own tags.

Lastly there are pending BURs https://e621.net/forum_topics/37375 to give the latex_clothing tag group some implications and aliases which would be helpful.

EDIT: The bulk update request #5790 (forum #380746) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

Now that we've got some movement into the latex topic I want to bring up a point I didn't see being discussed so far: Rubber suits. While lacking a proper definition this tag is currently being applied to over 9000 posts and is basically used whenever a posts involves a piece of latex/rubber clothing that covers more area than a leotard (also a lot of mistagging for when just rubber clothing is visible, but nothing that resembles any kind of suit)
That led me a while ago to the thought: Is there any difference between rubber_suit/latex_suit and latex_skinsuit? To me it doesn't look like there is any.
Wouldn't it make sense to alias rubber_suit and latex_suit to latex_skinsuit? Skinsuit also has a simple, but proper definition and this might reduce the mistagging.

demonthedarkhound said:
Now that we've got some movement into the latex topic I want to bring up a point I didn't see being discussed so far: Rubber suits. While lacking a proper definition this tag is currently being applied to over 9000 posts and is basically used whenever a posts involves a piece of latex/rubber clothing that covers more area than a leotard (also a lot of mistagging for when just rubber clothing is visible, but nothing that resembles any kind of suit)
That led me a while ago to the thought: Is there any difference between rubber_suit/latex_suit and latex_skinsuit? To me it doesn't look like there is any.
Wouldn't it make sense to alias rubber_suit and latex_suit to latex_skinsuit? Skinsuit also has a simple, but proper definition and this might reduce the mistagging.

I looked over posts tagged with rubber_suit and I agree with your assessment. If we look at posts currently tagged with rubber_suit or latex_skinsuit or latex_bodysuit, there isn't a clear way to tell them apart.

The wiki page for rubber_suit is very lacking, it has no description and no image examples. Also the tag is currently aliased to rubbersuit and latex_suit. I think it makes sense to alias rubber_suit AND latex_skinsuit to latex_bodysuit. The reason I think both should be aliased is because bodysuit already implicates skinsuit and skinsuit doesn't describe a unique type of clothing (just the characteristic of being skin-tight through elastic tension).

Also I went and made/updated wiki pages for medical_gloves and liquid_latex. Can someone else look over those entries to make sure I didn't miss anything?

EDIT: I want to make sure the wiki page for medical_gloves is solid before I start any tag projects for applying that tag and removing latex_gloves

Updated

demonthedarkhound said:
We should change that to medical_gloves implying latex_gloves.

Just to clarify this point, I don’t think that non-fetishwear rubber products like medical gloves should imply latex. I think latex needs to be reserved exclusively for fetishwear, because we don’t have another separate tag for that and people searching for the fetishwear kind do not want medical gloves in their search results.

diligentdragon said:
I looked over posts tagged with rubber_suit and I agree with your assessment. If we look at posts currently tagged with rubber_suit or latex_skinsuit or latex_bodysuit, there isn't a clear way to tell them apart.

The wiki page for rubber_suit is very lacking, it has no description and no image examples. Also the tag is currently aliased to rubbersuit and latex_suit. I think it makes sense to alias rubber_suit AND latex_skinsuit to latex_bodysuit. The reason I think both should be aliased is because bodysuit already implicates skinsuit and skinsuit doesn't describe a unique type of clothing (just the characteristic of being skin-tight through elastic tension).

Also I went and made/updated wiki pages for medical_gloves and liquid_latex. Can someone else look over those entries to make sure I didn't miss anything?

EDIT: I want to make sure the wiki page for medical_gloves is solid before I start any tag projects for applying that tag and removing latex_gloves

There is a small difference between bodysuits and skinsuits: Bodysuits don't cover the head while skinsuits can do that. All bodysuits are skinsuits (hence the implication), but not all skinsuits are bodysuits (some types of gimp suits that cover everything for example). That why I suggested the alias to skinsuit and not bodysuit.

scaliespe said:
Just to clarify this point, I don’t think that non-fetishwear rubber products like medical gloves should imply latex. I think latex needs to be reserved exclusively for fetishwear, because we don’t have another separate tag for that and people searching for the fetishwear kind do not want medical gloves in their search results.

While I agree that this sounds good to have at least some seperation for medical gloves from the fetishwear... what prevents people from tagging them as latex_gloves anyway? Especially those outside the latex discussions might see medical gloves and tag them as latex following TWYS, because these gloves have it in their nature to be made out of some latex/rubber-like material (or just look like latex). Would someone even get the idea to tag them as medical_gloves if they were made from something else than latex/rubber?

Watsit

Privileged

scaliespe said:
Just to clarify this point, I don’t think that non-fetishwear rubber products like medical gloves should imply latex. I think latex needs to be reserved exclusively for fetishwear, because we don’t have another separate tag for that and people searching for the fetishwear kind do not want medical gloves in their search results.

It's better to avoid making kink-specific tags out of general terms. People aren't going to read the wiki for simple things like latex or rubber; they'll see latex or rubber in an image and tag it, without considering whether it is or can be fetish or non-fetish material in other images. There are other non-fetishistic rubber gloves besides medical gloves as well, like dishwashing gloves. There's also rubber boots and rubber pants that are worn when walking or wading in water. Whether or not a piece of rubber/latex clothing is fetishwear isn't always clear cut and can depend on the context of the image, as you can sometimes find articles of rubber or latex clothing in public fashion.

That's how we end up with issues like dock or cat or dog, where a general term in the public lexicon is made into a tag with a more specific meaning, but people keep tagging it for its other general meanings as well because it's the obvious term for the thing in question.

Thank you for pointing that out DemonTheDarkHound, so alias rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit? Then some manual tagging to add latex_bodysuit where applicable?

As for the kink-specific tags, Watsit, do you think there is a better way to reliably tag fetishwear latex apart from non-fetish latex items? Its not completely out of the norm to have distinct tags which depend on the context of other things present in an image, like how wetsuit is usually only tagged if the context of the image is seaside or ocean related. I definitely agree that having these specific tags isn't intuitive, but users often fail to tag everything relevant to an image regardless. It might be better for these tags to exist so users could potentially tag them. If they don't exist then other users may struggle to avoid or search for latex non-fetishwear. I guess tags like 'skimpy' or the '*_cutout' tags might help, but those are often missed as well. There are also tags like medical which aren't defined, but there are tags like egyptian_clothing or even ninja which are often applied to any character wearing a 'themed' outfit.

I think our 2 questions right now are (1) Should latex non-fetishwear specific tags exist? (2) If yes, should they imply their best matching latex_*? If no, then should users be expected to tag character(s)' overall 'theme'?

I don't have a well constructed answer right now, I'm going to think it over, I'll post back once something clicks.

I don't think creating kink-specific tags for fetishwear will really work. The non-fetish ones do mostly have tags that distinguishes them from fetishwear: medical gloves, rain boots, hazmat suit, etc. (Maybe work_gloves for industrial rubber gloves? Seems the closest we have.) Besides the effort necessary to sort all latex gloves to either fetish or utility products, it can also very well be not clear which one they belong to. Someone might deem a pair of latex gloves not fetish-y enough to tag them as such and they could look to different from the utilitywear as well. This would likely just lead to more discussions. Also, with whatever name we come up for fetish-associated clothing, the tags would likely be counterintuitive and thus people wouldn't like to use them.

Focusing on latex gloves: A dominatrix could put on a pair of latex gloves and everyone would tag them as fetishwear, because of the setting. But if the same character would change their clothing to normal streetwear, but leave the gloves on, things would get tricky. While they're clearly not medical gloves, they don't necessarily have to look like bdsmwear.
Also, nothing prevents medical gloves from being used in a fetish setting (Pervy nurse or doctor). In this environment, the gloves are both utility and fetishwear in a sense.

On the side of bdsmwear for example we have bondage gloves, which are tied to their appearance, not their material. Fetishwear doesn't need to be made out of latex. Leather is a well known alternative and I have also seen things like gimp masks out of metal.

I want point out that so far we discussed fetish and utility wear like they are the only two uses for latex. Fashion is also an option and even harder to tell apart.

The best way I can think of: We make sure to tag utility latex products properly. Telling apart bdsmwear from clothing that just might happen to be latex is too difficult and in many cases dependant on the context/setting of the image.
Non-fetishwear pieces of latex, which also have a distinct design to reliably tell them apart should get own tags, if they don't already have them (Looks quite good on that end).
Staying on the latex_gloves example: For those that don't want to see things like medical_gloves while searching for latex_gloves we could opt for putting a list of non-fetish latex gloves under the definition of latex_gloves. This way they can take them out while browsing or straight up blacklist them if they really hate these things.

I have given this topic some more thought, I wanted to use DemonTheDarkHound's response to clarify and structure my approach.

demonthedarkhound said:
I don't think creating kink-specific tags for fetishwear will really work. The non-fetish ones do mostly have tags that distinguishes them from fetishwear: medical gloves, rain boots, hazmat suit, etc. (Maybe work_gloves for industrial rubber gloves? Seems the closest we have.) Besides the effort necessary to sort all latex gloves to either fetish or utility products, it can also very well be not clear which one they belong to. Someone might deem a pair of latex gloves not fetish-y enough to tag them as such and they could look to different from the utilitywear as well. This would likely just lead to more discussions. Also, with whatever name we come up for fetish-associated clothing, the tags would likely be counterintuitive and thus people wouldn't like to use them.

Focusing on latex gloves: A dominatrix could put on a pair of latex gloves and everyone would tag them as fetishwear, because of the setting. But if the same character would change their clothing to normal streetwear, but leave the gloves on, things would get tricky. While they're clearly not medical gloves, they don't necessarily have to look like bdsmwear.
Also, nothing prevents medical gloves from being used in a fetish setting (Pervy nurse or doctor). In this environment, the gloves are both utility and fetishwear in a sense.

On the side of bdsmwear for example we have bondage gloves, which are tied to their appearance, not their material. Fetishwear doesn't need to be made out of latex. Leather is a well known alternative and I have also seen things like gimp masks out of metal.

I want point out that so far we discussed fetish and utility wear like they are the only two uses for latex. Fashion is also an option and even harder to tell apart.

I understood our conversations regarding "fetishwear" as referencing innately erotic latex clothing, which has no obvious practical purpose and no obvious utility. I don't think whether its fashion or actually part of an erotic context would matter.

I thought non-fetishwear simply meant latex clothing that has some apparent practical purpose, some obvious function which would distinguish them. I don't mean that non-fetishwear can never appear in a rating:q or rating:e post nor do I mean that non-fetishwear is inherently rating:s only.

Also I definitely agree that making super specific kink/fetish tags would be unproductive and unhelpful.

demonthedarkhound said:
The best way I can think of: We make sure to tag utility latex products properly. Telling apart bdsmwear from clothing that just might happen to be latex is too difficult and in many cases dependant on the context/setting of the image.
Non-fetishwear pieces of latex, which also have a distinct design to reliably tell them apart should get own tags, if they don't already have them (Looks quite good on that end).
Staying on the latex_gloves example: For those that don't want to see things like medical_gloves while searching for latex_gloves we could opt for putting a list of non-fetish latex gloves under the definition of latex_gloves. This way they can take them out while browsing or straight up blacklist them if they really hate these things.

Overall I honestly think we have come to the same general framework. I think it makes sense to include tags for latex_clothing with "function" or some "obvious purpose" on the 'Not to be confused with' section of their closest matching latex_* tag. Like putting medical_gloves and work_gloves under latex_gloves.

I think the layout would be...
-----------------------------------

Latex_gloves

example images (EXCLUDE any with utility gloves)

description (include language identifying latex_gloves as appearing as a fashion item or as part of a fetish outfit)

Not to be confused with...
List all utility tags (medical_gloves, work_gloves etc. AND include language identifying these as clothing items with ones with a clear function AND that these can appear alongside or with fetish clothing)

-----------------------------------

Now obviously this solution is not ideal but this situation isn't ideal either. In an ideal world everyone tagging posts would read the wiki page for each tag at least once before they apply or remove it (and everyone would agree on what they see in an image). Users will obviously miss some of these utility clothing tags, but if they don't exist at all then there is no method of searching/excluding them. Individual users who disagree on what tags apply or not, will have to hash it out like normal (DMs or through site-staff if that fails). I also don't think these utility clothing tags should imply latex because they may not appear identifiable as latex in all posts and the implication might discourage users from using them (instead just tagging latex_gloves).

I'm going to let this linger for a bit to see if anyone has a different approach or any suggestions. If nothing comes up, I'm going to start making wiki pages for these utility clothing tags (I would appreciate suggestions on which tags to update).

Lastly if none of the pending Latex clothing BURs get updated in the coming week I will probably make my own BUR to post here to give the latex_clothing tags implications/alias similar to existing clothing tag groups.

DiligentDragon's ideas look like the best we have so far, so no objections from my end.

I still have some smaller suggestions for latex-related tags, but before bringing in new stuff I want to give people time to comment on the already existing points in this thread.

The bulk update request #5824 has been rejected.

create implication latex_lingerie (114) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_legwear (7487) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_armwear (2691) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_handwear (5730) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_topwear (821) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_bottomwear (355) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_underwear (638) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_footwear (1145) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_legwear (7487) -> legwear (269453)
create implication latex_armwear (2691) -> armwear (73184)
create implication latex_handwear (5730) -> handwear (175699)
create implication latex_topwear (821) -> topwear (460779)
create implication latex_bottomwear (355) -> bottomwear (348832)
create implication latex_footwear (1145) -> footwear (230504)
create implication latex_underwear (638) -> underwear (343965)

Reason: So far no objections or other input, I'm going to start submitting some BURs to finish this cleanup. This BUR has two big parts to it, the first was to create implication logic similar to existing clothing drops. I also want to spotlight this forum topic: https://e621.net/forum_topics/37375, which was also created to handle this issue. I tried to combine these BURs, but there is a 25 entry limit, so this is going out in multiple parts (obviously not all at once, I'm waiting for input). I did what I could to organize the BURs by their general purpose.

Clothing tags tend to follow the convention of the specific article of clothing implying its next most general tag, then that more general tag implicates clothing, see the example below:

gloves -> handwear -> clothing

When a specific 'type' of clothing is tagged, that type of clothing usually implicates its more generic counterpart, see example below:

frilly_bra -> frilly_underwear, bra -> frilly_clothing, underwear (respectively)

When a type of clothing has some universal characteristic like its material or design, it usually implicates a very generic tag representing that characteristic, see example:

frilly_clothing -> frilly, clothing

This BUR is intended to apply the same conventions to the latex clothing tags, my goal is to create implication logic like in this example:

latex_thigh_highs -> latex_legwear -> latex_clothing, legwear -> latex, clothing (respectively)

This BUR is meant to establish the most basic part of this logic, where latex_*(location-wear) implies its non-latex generic counterpart (and latex_clothing as the universal characteristic - the material)

EDIT: The bulk update request #5824 (forum #381187) has been rejected by @slyroon.

Updated by auto moderator

Some latex-related things I wanted to talk about, but aren’t big enough for an own thread (Turned out to be longer than I first expected):
1. latex_bridal_gauntlets
Should this tag be a thing? It fills in the gap with bridal gauntlets not being gloves, which leads to bridal gauntlets made from latex only being tagged as bridal_gauntlets and latex_armwear. Considering that I learned the definition of bridal gauntlets just a couple of months ago I was too insecure to just create that on my own without asking first.

2. Removing the implication from encasement to bound.
While encasement doesn’t necessarily need to involve latex, a lot of them DO feature liquid latex and while yes, the encasement can bind the victim, there are also instances where the victim can keep moving unhindered after being encased.
Best example are the boogies:
post #4258859 post #4355569
None of the latex_clothing tags fit, the latex wraps around people and they are unable to take it off willingly. latex_skin doesn’t fit either, because the latex doesn’t replace the skin. The latex stays on top of skin/fur and when the mass gets removed/falls off the body below is left unharmed/untransformed. So, only encasement matches.

3. color_rubber_suit
There are a few color_rubber_suit tags floating around (mainly black_rubber_suit). Rubber_suit is going to be aliased to latex_skinsuit, but I doubt we should alias these to color_latex_skinsuit tags. In short: I think they are unnecessary and just tag bloat. The color_* should be put on the type of clothing (black_skinsuit, blue_skinsuit…) and not the material.
Instead of aliasing the color_rubber_suit tags away, I would volunteer to remove them manually if people agree with me.

4. living_latex/latex_creature
While searching the forum for latex-related stuff, I also came upon a few BURs that involved aliasing living_latex to latex_creature or liquid_latex (the latter doesn’t make sense, so I wanna talk about the first one).
living_latex should remain its own thing. I like to imagine the difference between latex_creature and living_latex like the difference between tentacle_creature and tentacles. The _creature tag requires a body to be visible, while tentacles only need to show the extremities. Living latex can show movement on its own without having a real body. Maybe a puddle of liquid latex moves on its own, a larger ball of latex encasing a victim or straight up a tentacle out of liquid latex being featured. The last part in particular reminded me of the tentacle_creature/tentacles difference, so we can apply this logic here as well.

5. goo_suit
Only mentioning this because I recently came upon it and we talked about*_suit related tags.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but… does this tag even make sense?
Looking through the tag (https://e621.net/posts?tags=goo_suit) it seems to be rather new and a mix of different subjects. I can see encasement, latex_skin, latex_transformation and also just straight up latex_bodysuit. The latter doesn’t even always involve goo.
I would like to hear what other people think about that.

1. It follows existing tag naming conventions, its probably going to be very low use, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be a valid tag.

2. Encasement is currently defined as applied to restrictive coating of some material, so it makes sense that it would bind them inherently. From what we can see in these images, it just looks like they are made of living_latex or latex_skin. If a transformation is depicted then the transformation tags should work. I think the best tag is dronification or drone which is a... "rising fetish" in some circles, where people wear anonymizing suits that cover the whole body. The existing wiki page for these tags does mention a character being trapped in a latex_suit or goo.

3. Latex can be colors other than black, why not alias them to latex and then do implications like these ones you submitted for *color_thigh_boots (https://e621.net/forum_topics/39313)?

4. This is very insightful and I agree, though I think latex_creature should imply living_latex (like how robot -> machine).

5. Not gonna lie, this goo_suit situation looks messy (pun). It was discussed (in this topic and previous ones) that liquid_latex could cover many of these situations, I think specific posts can be distinguished by adding tags like latex_clothing, goo_transformation, encasement or dronification. But this has me thinking, there could be fluid clothes without those clothes being made of liquid latex or maybe this particular situation of a character having liquid-y clothes is more common then we thought. Maybe there should be a highly general tag specifically for clothing made out of goo, slime or other liquid-like materials? Such a tag would cover situations where clothing is clearly made of a fluid but there isn't any depiction of transformation, encasement etc. I picked two posts which roughly demonstrate my thoughts.

Examples

post #4387744
- Goo_transformation
- [Add] liquid_latex (?) - the goo is black and glistening

post #4266115
- [Add] liquid_latex - clothing resembles latex
- [Remove] Goo_transformation (?) - not clear if goo is overtaking the character
- [Add] 'fluid_clothing' (?) - if the goo isn't part of a transformation, would it then just be fluid_clothing?

So liquid_latex or slime would cover a lot of these posts, with those additional tags of course. But some are too ambiguous and might need a more generic 'fluid_clothing' tag. I really wish we had more people in this topic right now, this is getting more complicated and a larger consensus would make me feel better proceeding with wiki edits / BURs.

To 2. With focus on the latex itself being some restrictive/hindering coating I can actually agree on keeping the implication.

Would you also tag this species as latex_creature if they visibly incorporate pieces of metal/machinery? (As the creator of the boogie_(species) tag I would really like to hear how others would tag that.)
post #3578469
I’m just now realizing that a lot of the boogies would actually fit latex_creature.

To 3. I’m referring here ONLY to combination tags consisting of color + material + type of clothing, because if we were to keep the color_rubber_suit tags, we would need to apply similar tags to ALL other latex clothes as well. latex_thigh_boots would get a tag for every color, latex_elbow_gloves would get one for every color and so on. These would also need implications and being tagged in the first way.
If you wanted to tag a blue pair of latex thigh boots you would already use blue_thigh_boots, latex_thigh_boots and blue_latex. I doubt adding blue_latex_thigh_boots to the bunch would add enough to the post to justify the effort necessary to properly implement such tags.
Even as someone who is into latex stuff, I can’t see myself searching for something like yellow_latex_elbow_gloves. I would rather search latex_elbow_gloves +yellow_elbow_gloves. With something like my example we would get into the area of too long tags (not against the rules, but certainly unfavorable) and being too specific to be really useful.

To 4. Yes, agreed.

To 5. I think the problem we encounter with clothing made out of goo is that as soon as they can be identified as clothing/fully formed some clothing they stop looking like goo. More like dripping latex. Also, thanks to the shine the goo carries, people are more likely to tag the formed clothing as latex, liquid_latex or both.
Furthermore, goo isn’t the best tag anyway. It got invalidated for being too ambiguous.
I have looked into the goo_suit tag a bit deeper and it seems that it only appears so often, because one user (https://e621.net/users/379862) recently applied it to a lot of pictures. Reinforces my feeling that the entire tag is straight up wrong/doesn't follow site rules and shouldn't exist.

2. I would probably tag that particular image with 'cyborg' or 'robot' since I can't 100% say it looks like its made from latex. But quite a few boogies do look like latex creatures.

3. Now I understand what you meant, yes it makes more sense to just tag the color + the type as two separate things.

5. I would message the user directly and ask for their personal reasoning. If they don't respond then / their response was unclear then I would DM a site-staff member to ask for input on the tag. I agree the tag is being applied too inconsistently.

(Also I'm planning on submitting the second BUR for latex_clothing group in this topic relatively soon, since no one has objected to anything from the first one).

The bulk update request #5835 is active.

create implication latex_thigh_highs (1958) -> latex_legwear (7487)
create implication latex_leggings (109) -> latex_legwear (7487)
create implication latex_stockings (4619) -> latex_legwear (7487)
create implication latex_gloves (5677) -> latex_handwear (5730)
create implication latex_bodysuit (515) -> latex_skinsuit (10005)
create implication latex_bodysuit (515) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_shirt (109) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_elbow_gloves (1120) -> latex_gloves (5677)
create implication latex_elbow_gloves (1120) -> latex_armwear (2691)
create implication latex_arm_warmers (59) -> latex_armwear (2691)
create implication latex_arm_warmers (59) -> arm_warmers (10859)
create implication latex_pants (106) -> latex_bottomwear (355)
create implication latex_boots (1047) -> latex_footwear (1145)
create implication latex_thigh_boots (321) -> latex_boots (1047)
create implication latex_thigh_boots (321) -> thigh_boots (8388)
create implication latex_knee_boots (5) -> latex_boots (1047)
create implication latex_socks (57) -> latex_footwear (1145)
create implication latex_corset (112) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_corset (112) -> latex_lingerie (114)
create implication latex_bra (176) -> latex_underwear (638)
create implication latex_panties (305) -> latex_underwear (638)
create implication latex_thong (69) -> latex_underwear (638)

Reason: This BUR is meant to ensure some of the more active latex_clothing tags implicate their location 'category' as well as ensuring specific clothing items imply their generic (latex) counterpart. For instance...

(1) Imply latex_*location_category: latex_elbow_gloves -> latex_armwear
(2) Imply specific clothing item to more generic variant: latex_elbow_gloves -> latex_gloves

EDIT: The bulk update request #5835 (forum #381298) has failed: Error: latex_crop_top already implies latex_topwear through another implication (create implication latex_crop_top -> latex_topwear)

EDIT: The bulk update request #5835 (forum #381298) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

The bulk update request #5836 is active.

create implication latex_bodysuit (515) -> bodysuit (13173)
create implication latex_shirt (109) -> shirt (280327)
create implication latex_crop_top (71) -> crop_top (22896)
create implication latex_tank_top (11) -> tank_top (43700)
create implication latex_pantes (0) -> pants (149150)
create implication latex_leotard (237) -> leotard (12469)
create implication latex_bra (176) -> bra (60506)
create implication latex_panties (305) -> panties (142792)
create implication latex_thong (69) -> thong (31525)
create implication latex_dress (178) -> dress (73957)
create implication latex_mask (238) -> mask (41198)
create implication latex_hood (137) -> hood (11146)
create implication latex_dress (178) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_mask (238) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_hood (137) -> latex_clothing (20322)

Reason: This BUR is to make it so the most generic latex_clothing tag will imply their non-latex counterpart. Also certain latex_clothing tags should imply the latex_clothing tag, like latex_dress which doesn't fall under topwear / bottomwear so it just slots into the generic "clothing" category.

EDIT: The bulk update request #5836 (forum #381299) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

Several latex-related topics got delayed to “when the latex/rubber discussion is solved”. That is now. I looked through them if they still have relevance or can be rejected.

https://e621.net/forum_topics/40184 Became irrelevant. DiligentDragon, you can reject that yourself. It’s your post.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/39153 While latex_transformation should imply latex and transformation, I don’t agree with the other half. latex_goo is better suited to be aliased to liquid_latex.
Also, living_latex shouldn’t become a species tag. As little as a puddle of liquid latex moving on its own can be tagged as living_latex. I like to bring my tentacle/tentacle_creature example from above back up. A tentacle (general tag) can be visible without the body of the tentacle_creature (species tag) in sight. If the tentacle happens to be out of latex, it is living_latex, but not latex_creature.
DiligentDragon suggested that latex_creature should imply living_latex the same way robot implies machine. I agree with that.
The forum post in question also raises the question if latex_transformation is too broad or too specific and I think I can answer that as well. With currently almost 800 times being used it isn’t too specific. It also isn’t too broad, especially if you compare it to its alternative goo_transformation (goo got invalidated for being too ambiguous and latex is more specific in that regard).
Yes, latex_transformation doesn’t specify if the transformation happens through liquid_latex or solid latex, like strands of latex mummifying a character, but I don’t think it should. Just for the reason that splitting this into subtypes would result in too specific tags/too cumbersome use.

https://e621.net/forum_topics/38486 latex_transformation is one of… several transformations being discussed, but otherwise it has nothing to do with us.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/37891 Implication latex_stockings -> stockings is correct, just needs approval.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/36132 Just mentions living_latex and latex_creature. I already explained what relation I think these tags should have. The other tags discussed here don't concern us.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/26844 Alias living_rubber -> living_latex is correct and were one less alias we would need to request.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/23351 living_latex doesn’t need to be liquid_latex, liquid_latex isn’t always living_latex. Request is also rather old, rejecting it will prevent it from blocking future requests.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/20827 Implication living_latex -> latex is correct. Nuff said.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/35983 Alias latex_creature -> goo_creature, no. Again too ambiguous goo and the latex doesn’t always have to be liquid/goo. Living clothing out of latex is also a kind of latex creature.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/34885 Aliases all kinds of latex stuff to their rubber counterparts. The opposite was already approved. Can be rejected.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/33496 24 implications. 22 of them are already done through other BURs. From the remaining 2, latex_hood -> latex_headwear doesn’t make sense. Headwear is only that being worn ON the head, that excludes masks and hoods. latex_skin -> latex is the only one of the bunch that we actually need and I think that would be better in another BUR.
https://e621.net/forum_topics/31897 Concerns different colored rubber suits. We already agreed above that rubber_suit should be aliased to latex_skinsuit. Also, I made a detailed explanation why we don’t need color + material + type of clothing tags. This one can be rejected.

https://e621.net/forum_topics/21805 Latex is in there… Somewhere. Due to how MASSIVE this one is and because I have actually trouble understanding what exactly is going on here, I have no idea what to do with it. Its creator is already blocked and as far as I can tell, a lot of these implications already have been done. So, reject, I guess?
https://e621.net/forum_topics/20472 The topic has already been rejected, but it drew my attention to the tag vinyl. I changed the posts, which were tagged as vinyl, but meant vinyl_record (I hope I got all) and also some mistags. All what is left now (~340) fits to latex. Either, we alias or mass update them to latex.

To the topic goo_suit: I contacted the user, who made all the tags and they won’t tag it even more, but it didn’t sound like they intend to remove them either.

demonthedarkhound said:
https://e621.net/forum_topics/20472 The topic has already been rejected, but it drew my attention to the tag vinyl. I changed the posts, which were tagged as vinyl, but meant vinyl_record (I hope I got all) and also some mistags. All what is left now (~340) fits to latex. Either, we alias or mass update them to latex.

To the topic goo_suit: I contacted the user, who made all the tags and they won’t tag it even more, but it didn’t sound like they intend to remove them either.

Vinyl (clothing) should be aliased to latex since you can't tell the difference.

Its going to take me a while to read through all of these forum topics in detail, but so far I agree with what you wrote. It might be a good idea to contact an admin directly regarding these older BURs.

Okay... I'm going to go in order, linking the topic referenced in the number of each item in the below list:

(1). I rejected it. That mistaken request is what sent me down this rabbit hole.
(2). I think latex_transformation -> transformation, alias latex_goo -> liquid_latex, in terms of specifying the "type" of latex_transformation a user can tag liquid_latex or latex_skin / not tag liquid_latex to differentiate posts.
(3). We don't need to worry about that.
(4). This could be rolled into a larger BUR and put on this topic.
(5). This could be rolled into a larger BUR and put on this topic.
(6). This could be rolled into a larger BUR and put on this topic.
(7). Agree, probably should be rejected.
(8). This could be rolled into a larger BUR and put on this topic.
(9). Agree, probably should be rejected.
(10). Agree, probably should be rejected.
(11). Probably should be approved, it could be rolled into a BUR on this topic for ease of approval.
(12). Agree, probably should be rejected.
(13). This BUR is an example of why the 25 entry limit exists, I can't parse this.
(14). I'm relatively confident you got most of the vinyl_record posts, an alias to latex would probably be approved.

In cases where a user has used a poor tag, I think the remedy is an alias to the best associated tag and then manual tagging for specifics.

I'm continuing my own work on a few wiki pages related to this issue, once they are complete I will link them here. Once I'm confident the wiki pages are properly done I will start a few tagging projects of my own related to latex_gloves and latex_boots. Also I'll probably post a few BURs here to finish the latex_clothing group and I'll probably roll in some of those smaller BURs / alias / impl. requests I listed above.

I think an alias was forgotten because latex_suit is still aliased to rubber_suit
rubber_clothing, rubber_transformation, rubber_bodysuit, rubber_hood, rubber_shorts, rubber_body and maybe rubber_drone all need aliases to their latex counterparts.

bdanimare said:
I think an alias was forgotten because latex_suit is still aliased to rubber_suit
rubber_clothing, rubber_transformation, rubber_bodysuit, rubber_hood, rubber_shorts, rubber_body and maybe rubber_drone all need aliases to their latex counterparts.

The old aliases haven’t been approved, I’m probably going to submit a larger / refined alias BUR in this topic later tonight.

EDIT: Can’t tonight, rough day. Hopefully tomorrow.

Updated

diligentdragon said:
The old aliases haven’t been approved, I’m probably going to submit a larger / refined alias BUR in this topic later tonight.

Ah cool

The bulk update request #5873 is active.

remove alias latex_suit (25) -> rubber_suit (5)
create alias rubber_skirt (2) -> latex_skirt (101)
create alias rubber_shorts (3) -> latex_shorts (57)
create alias rubber_knee_highs (2) -> latex_knee_highs (3)
create alias rubber_skin (0) -> latex_skin (470)
create alias rubber_transformation (6) -> latex_transformation (948)
create alias latex_goo (3) -> liquid_latex (1457)
create implication latex_transformation (948) -> latex (48686)
create implication latex_transformation (948) -> transformation (68923)
create implication latex_creature (963) -> living_latex (2078)
create implication latex_skin (470) -> latex (48686)

Reason: The purpose of this BUR is to handle the remaining aliases and implications required for the latex / rubber cleanup which were identified in earlier discussions. This BUR includes suggestions by other users from older BURs (see above list).

Still missing:

alias rubber_suit -> latex_suitCould not be added to BUR due to existing alias latex_suit -> rubber_suit

Correction: alias should have been rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit

EDIT: The bulk update request #5873 (forum #381885) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated

watsit said:
It's better to avoid making kink-specific tags out of general terms. People aren't going to read the wiki for simple things like latex or rubber; they'll see latex or rubber in an image and tag it, without considering whether it is or can be fetish or non-fetish material in other images. There are other non-fetishistic rubber gloves besides medical gloves as well, like dishwashing gloves. There's also rubber boots and rubber pants that are worn when walking or wading in water. Whether or not a piece of rubber/latex clothing is fetishwear isn't always clear cut and can depend on the context of the image, as you can sometimes find articles of rubber or latex clothing in public fashion.

That's how we end up with issues like dock or cat or dog, where a general term in the public lexicon is made into a tag with a more specific meaning, but people keep tagging it for its other general meanings as well because it's the obvious term for the thing in question.

demonthedarkhound said:
While I agree that this sounds good to have at least some seperation for medical gloves from the fetishwear... what prevents people from tagging them as latex_gloves anyway? Especially those outside the latex discussions might see medical gloves and tag them as latex following TWYS, because these gloves have it in their nature to be made out of some latex/rubber-like material (or just look like latex). Would someone even get the idea to tag them as medical_gloves if they were made from something else than latex/rubber?

Like most things... occasional cleanup. I do think the term "latex" is most often associated with fetishwear specifically. That's largely why the tag was changed from rubber to latex in the first place, no? And if we don't separate them, how else are you supposed to search only for the fetishwear kind of latex clothing? By searching with -medical_gloves -dishwashing_gloves -rain_boots -hazmat_suit etc. etc. etc.? Depending on how many of those tags for non-fetishwear rubber clothing articles there are, this could be technically impossible, or at the very least impractical and highly inconvenient. Most people searching for latex clothing on this site are going to be looking specifically for the fetishwear, simple as that. They need to have a way to be able to do that easily. Do you have any better solution? Lumping them all together under latex is frankly a terrible solution.

scaliespe said:
Like most things... occasional cleanup. I do think the term "latex" is most often associated with fetishwear specifically. That's largely why the tag was changed from rubber to latex in the first place, no? And if we don't separate them, how else are you supposed to search only for the fetishwear kind of latex clothing? By searching with -medical_gloves -dishwashing_gloves -rain_boots -hazmat_suit etc. etc. etc.? Depending on how many of those tags for non-fetishwear rubber clothing articles there are, this could be technically impossible, or at the very least impractical and highly inconvenient. Most people searching for latex clothing on this site are going to be looking specifically for the fetishwear, simple as that. They need to have a way to be able to do that easily. Do you have any better solution? Lumping them all together under latex is frankly a terrible solution.

That's what I was heavily arguing on because when you google latex you basically only get fetish results but if you google rubber you get...rubber things.

demonthedarkhound said:
Catsuit is an invalid tag, so... no.

Catsuit? The thing that has an entire wiki page on it? I can understand if it was bodysuit instead of skinsuit but invalid? Is this going to be another rubber vs latex debate except it's skinsuit and catsuit? lol. I might have to make a thread.

scaliespe said:
Like most things... occasional cleanup. I do think the term "latex" is most often associated with fetishwear specifically. That's largely why the tag was changed from rubber to latex in the first place, no? And if we don't separate them, how else are you supposed to search only for the fetishwear kind of latex clothing? By searching with -medical_gloves -dishwashing_gloves -rain_boots -hazmat_suit etc. etc. etc.? Depending on how many of those tags for non-fetishwear rubber clothing articles there are, this could be technically impossible, or at the very least impractical and highly inconvenient. Most people searching for latex clothing on this site are going to be looking specifically for the fetishwear, simple as that. They need to have a way to be able to do that easily. Do you have any better solution? Lumping them all together under latex is frankly a terrible solution.

So... just tagging the utility stuff as their respective term and removing the latex-tags if no fetishwear is visible? I can live with that. I gave up my support for the medical_gloves -> latex_gloves implication anyway.

If anything gets edited out of the bur, it's because it was causing it to fail because it had other transitives that need to be addressed separate

rainbow_dash said:
If anything gets edited out of the bur, it's because it was causing it to fail because it had other transitives that need to be addressed separate

Which alias / implications still need to be implemented? Should I try to track down the pending transitives?

Also yes DemonTheDarkHound it was supposed to be alias rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit, my bad.

I also want to restate my agreement with scaliespe, utility clothing tags should not imply latex_*

diligentdragon said:
Which alias / implications still need to be implemented? Should I try to track down the pending transitives?

Also yes DemonTheDarkHound it was supposed to be alias rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit, my bad.

I also want to restate my agreement with scaliespe, utility clothing tags should not imply latex_*

I still think it should be latex_catsuit to be honest.

bdanimare said:
I still think it should be latex_catsuit to be honest.

Catsuit is an invalid tag. catsuit was aliased to catsuit_(disambiguation) because on e621 the term can be ambiguous. For example does 'catsuit' mean a suit which makes a character appear feline? Or does it refer to a skin-tight garment? This old forum topic covers this (https://e621.net/forum_topics/11759). The alias was approved by user 59725, which (based on their records / edits - I wasn't here at that time) was a very involved admin. skinsuit and bodysuit are our existing tags for these kinds of outfits, making a new tag specifically for latex skinsuits / bodysuits would be confusing. Does that clarify why we aren't using latex_catsuit or catsuit as tags?

diligentdragon said:
Catsuit is an invalid tag. catsuit was aliased to catsuit_(disambiguation) because on e621 the term can be ambiguous. For example does 'catsuit' mean a suit which makes a character appear feline? Or does it refer to a skin-tight garment? This old forum topic covers this (https://e621.net/forum_topics/11759). The alias was approved by user 59725, which (based on their records / edits - I wasn't here at that time) was a very involved admin. skinsuit and bodysuit are our existing tags for these kinds of outfits, making a new tag specifically for latex skinsuits / bodysuits would be confusing. Does that clarify why we aren't using latex_catsuit or catsuit as tags?

It's not ambiguous at all. If you google it, you aren't met with anything other than actual catsuits. What you're saying would be tagged as "cat_suit" as two seperate words. Skinsuit is specifically a biking thing and body suit is something that looks more like a one-piece swimsuit. That was also a full 7 years ago with very little discussion. The problem was that catsuit was *aliased* to "cat_costume" which caused a lot of problems and like Beanjam said, catsuit is a more common name for a suit that covers your body. Both catsuit and bodysuit are both in the dictionary so there's absolutely no ambuguity as to what it is.

I know skinsuit and bodysuit are the existing tags. The problem is that they're wrong like the whole rubber/latex debate. Latex was by and large the most common term for such a material in a kink setting

There is no new tag, it's just the proper term for the full-body suit.

The current e621 wikis for bodysuit and skinsuit are also wrong which is contributing to the problem.

bdanimare said:
It's not ambiguous at all. If you google it, you aren't met with anything other than actual catsuits. What you're saying would be tagged as "cat_suit" as two seperate words. Skinsuit is specifically a biking thing and body suit is something that looks more like a one-piece swimsuit. That was also a full 7 years ago with very little discussion. The problem was that catsuit was *aliased* to "cat_costume" which caused a lot of problems and like Beanjam said, catsuit is a more common name for a suit that covers your body. Both catsuit and bodysuit are both in the dictionary so there's absolutely no ambuguity as to what it is.

I know skinsuit and bodysuit are the existing tags. The problem is that they're wrong like the whole rubber/latex debate. Latex was by and large the most common term for such a material in a kink setting

There is no new tag, it's just the proper term for the full-body suit.

The current e621 wikis for bodysuit and skinsuit are also wrong which is contributing to the problem.

Are you really suggesting to use catsuit for what we currently call skinsuit and cat_suit instead of cat_costume?
… This might be the worst idea I’ve heard in terms of tagging so far. That TOTALLY won’t cause a ton mistagging as a result of typos/misinterpretation.

Okay, let’s start from the beginning: Yes, we would like to use the term catsuit, but due to consisting of “cat” and “suit” multiple problems arise. Tags ending on *_suit are in certain cases very prone to mistagging. Rubber_suit got used in the past multiple times when people just wanted to refer to rubber_clothing, one of the reasons we are now getting rid of it. At least in these cases the taggers were aware enough to use it for clothes that cover large amounts of the wearer’s body (bodysuits and skinsuits). Goo_suit is another eyesore, I elaborated above why.
The cat in combination with suit or any other word for clothing will always make people think about suits that let the wearer look like a cat. Hence the invalidation.

So, catsuit is out. What are we gonna do? We set e621’s definition for BODYsuit for clothes that cover a large area of the BODY and the slightly more ambiguous SKINsuit as an umbrella term for SKIN tight clothes.
If you want to AGAIN bring up that the real world definitions are different from e6’s, guess what? These definitions weren’t made with e621's rules, tagging system and practicality for the user in mind.
Just look up the tags for monster or alien. Surprise! They have definitions unique to e6 to make them usable. Is that so difficult to understand?

Another point I want to bring up: What the hell makes you think Google is a valid source?! The object we talk about is clothing, a product people can buy. Companies pay for their products to appear higher on the list of results. That alone makes it a horrible source. I remember that citing Wikipedia as a source was already frowned upon by my teachers, if I only used Google (without the actual page Google offers me while searching) they would have let me fail just for that.

Further…

The problem is that they're wrong like the whole rubber/latex debate.

Did you really call a debate that went on for years and required the input of MANY users wrong? And not even make a meaningful or any explanation why you think that is? With actual arguments that aren't "Because Google said so"?
Do you have any idea how massively disrespectful that is towards the people, who worked on finding a reasonable and practical solution for this problem?!

The tags aren’t factually wrong like you claim, you just don’t agree with them. BIG difference. And frankly... that is YOUR problem, not ours.
Also, your repeated comparisons make it more look like you want to exaggerate the importance of the bodysuit discussion. I'm the not the only one, who pointed out your comparisons to the latex/rubber discussion don't make much sense.

Latex was by and large the most common term for such a material in a kink setting

This is the point where you completely lost me. Is the word latex ever commonly used outside the kink setting?
Yes, it f#cking is! In a laboratory environment you use utility wear things like medical gloves and depending on the lab boots out of latex and they are also called latex gloves/latex boots. I should know, I work with medical gloves on a daily basis!
We only agreed in this thread to not use latex for utility wear just because this way they won’t get mixed up in a sea of bdsm-y stuff. It’s a decision for practical reasons. (Read scaliespe’s comments above if you want an elaboration)

Also, the term catsuit isn’t as widespread as you claim it is. (And no, I don’t freaking care what Google says to that matter) In the Bodysuit thread (https://e621.net/forum_topics/41403) I literally said “I can't even agree to catsuit being the most common term part, I know the word from costumes and only heard it in that context. Nothing fetish related.” Did you at this point not consider that your arguments aren’t as solid as you tried to present them?
DiligentDragon’s arguments in the same thread are also worth noting.

The bulk update request #5885 is active.

create implication latex_headwear (137) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_headwear (137) -> headwear (191094)
create implication living_latex (2078) -> latex (48686)
create implication latex_skin (470) -> latex_body (757)
create alias rubber_body (2) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> skinsuit (24346)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> latex_clothing (20322)
remove alias rubber_clothes (0) -> rubber_clothing (10522)
remove alias rubbersuit (0) -> rubber_suit (5)

Reason: We should really get back to our main focus...

Somehow I overlooked latex_headwear, probably because it isn't being used. Can't hurt to close that hole though.

Vinyl and silicone are polymer type materials which appear similar to latex. These clothing tags aren't in use but I tossed them in just to be sure. Removed for being too broad

Living_latex / latex_skinsuit associated alias / implications are hold overs which couldn't be applied earlier. As well as the rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing alias.

rubber_body and latex_body are redundant with each other and latex_skin should imply latex_body. This leaves open the possibility of there being tags like latex_feathers or latex_scales (there is a latex_fur but its not widespread). Can't hurt to leave that possibility open for the future though. I went through latex_body and rubber_body posts to do some manual edits for weird edge cases, not much to report.

Hopefully these go through, not sure how to handle these transitive conflicts. Added unalias steps for these two tags
alias rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur
alias rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur

EDIT: The bulk update request #5885 (forum #382075) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

diligentdragon said:
The bulk update request #5885 is active.

create implication latex_headwear (137) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_headwear (137) -> headwear (191094)
create implication living_latex (2078) -> latex (48686)
create implication latex_skin (470) -> latex_body (757)
create alias rubber_body (2) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> skinsuit (24346)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> latex_clothing (20322)
remove alias rubber_clothes (0) -> rubber_clothing (10522)
remove alias rubbersuit (0) -> rubber_suit (5)

Reason: We should really get back to our main focus...

Somehow I overlooked latex_headwear, probably because it isn't being used. Can't hurt to close that hole though.

Vinyl and silicone are polymer type materials which appear similar to latex. These clothing tags aren't in use but I tossed them in just to be sure.

Living_latex / latex_skinsuit associated alias / implications are hold overs which couldn't be applied earlier. As well as the rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing alias.

rubber_body and latex_body are redundant with each other and latex_skin should imply latex_body. This leaves open the possibility of there being tags like latex_feathers or latex_scales (there is a latex_fur but its not widespread). Can't hurt to leave that possibility open for the future though. I went through latex_body and rubber_body posts to do some manual edits for weird edge cases, not much to report.

Hopefully these go through, not sure how to handle these transitive conflicts.
alias rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur
alias rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur

The transitive conflicts are coming from rubber_clothing and rubber_suit having other tags being aliased to them (rubber_clothes and rubbersuit respectively). These need to be unaliased first and afterwards the tags can be aliased to their latex counterparts. If I remember correctly the unalias and subsequent aliases need to be done separately. First a BUR requesting the unalias and after approval another BUR with the new aliases. Doing both in the same BUR doesn't work.

diligentdragon said:
The bulk update request #5885 is active.

create implication latex_headwear (137) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_headwear (137) -> headwear (191094)
create implication living_latex (2078) -> latex (48686)
create implication latex_skin (470) -> latex_body (757)
create alias rubber_body (2) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> skinsuit (24346)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> latex_clothing (20322)
remove alias rubber_clothes (0) -> rubber_clothing (10522)
remove alias rubbersuit (0) -> rubber_suit (5)

Reason: We should really get back to our main focus...

Somehow I overlooked latex_headwear, probably because it isn't being used. Can't hurt to close that hole though.

Vinyl and silicone are polymer type materials which appear similar to latex. These clothing tags aren't in use but I tossed them in just to be sure.

Living_latex / latex_skinsuit associated alias / implications are hold overs which couldn't be applied earlier. As well as the rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing alias.

rubber_body and latex_body are redundant with each other and latex_skin should imply latex_body. This leaves open the possibility of there being tags like latex_feathers or latex_scales (there is a latex_fur but its not widespread). Can't hurt to leave that possibility open for the future though. I went through latex_body and rubber_body posts to do some manual edits for weird edge cases, not much to report.

Hopefully these go through, not sure how to handle these transitive conflicts.
alias rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur
alias rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur

Some of these are too large and aliasing them entirely probably isn't a good idea. Like all of rubber into latex. I think.

diligentdragon said:
The bulk update request #5885 is active.

create implication latex_headwear (137) -> latex_clothing (20322)
create implication latex_headwear (137) -> headwear (191094)
create implication living_latex (2078) -> latex (48686)
create implication latex_skin (470) -> latex_body (757)
create alias rubber_body (2) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> skinsuit (24346)
create implication latex_skinsuit (10005) -> latex_clothing (20322)
remove alias rubber_clothes (0) -> rubber_clothing (10522)
remove alias rubbersuit (0) -> rubber_suit (5)

Reason: We should really get back to our main focus...

Somehow I overlooked latex_headwear, probably because it isn't being used. Can't hurt to close that hole though.

Vinyl and silicone are polymer type materials which appear similar to latex. These clothing tags aren't in use but I tossed them in just to be sure. Removed for being too broad

Living_latex / latex_skinsuit associated alias / implications are hold overs which couldn't be applied earlier. As well as the rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing alias.

rubber_body and latex_body are redundant with each other and latex_skin should imply latex_body. This leaves open the possibility of there being tags like latex_feathers or latex_scales (there is a latex_fur but its not widespread). Can't hurt to leave that possibility open for the future though. I went through latex_body and rubber_body posts to do some manual edits for weird edge cases, not much to report.

Hopefully these go through, not sure how to handle these transitive conflicts. Added unalias steps for these two tags
alias rubber_clothing -> latex_clothing # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur
alias rubber_suit -> latex_skinsuit # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur

The BUR has been updated to limit its scope to in-use tags (or closely related tags) only and it now includes unalias requests for rubber_clothing / rubber_suit to remove the transitive conflicts.

demonthedarkhound said:
Are you really suggesting to use catsuit for what we currently call skinsuit and cat_suit instead of cat_costume?
… This might be the worst idea I’ve heard in terms of tagging so far. That TOTALLY won’t cause a ton mistagging as a result of typos/misinterpretation.

Okay, let’s start from the beginning: Yes, we would like to use the term catsuit, but due to consisting of “cat” and “suit” multiple problems arise. Tags ending on *_suit are in certain cases very prone to mistagging. Rubber_suit got used in the past multiple times when people just wanted to refer to rubber_clothing, one of the reasons we are now getting rid of it. At least in these cases the taggers were aware enough to use it for clothes that cover large amounts of the wearer’s body (bodysuits and skinsuits). Goo_suit is another eyesore, I elaborated above why.
The cat in combination with suit or any other word for clothing will always make people think about suits that let the wearer look like a cat. Hence the invalidation.

So, catsuit is out. What are we gonna do? We set e621’s definition for BODYsuit for clothes that cover a large area of the BODY and the slightly more ambiguous SKINsuit as an umbrella term for SKIN tight clothes.
If you want to AGAIN bring up that the real world definitions are different from e6’s, guess what? These definitions weren’t made with e621's rules, tagging system and practicality for the user in mind.
Just look up the tags for monster or alien. Surprise! They have definitions unique to e6 to make them usable. Is that so difficult to understand?

Another point I want to bring up: What the hell makes you think Google is a valid source?! The object we talk about is clothing, a product people can buy. Companies pay for their products to appear higher on the list of results. That alone makes it a horrible source. I remember that citing Wikipedia as a source was already frowned upon by my teachers, if I only used Google (without the actual page Google offers me while searching) they would have let me fail just for that.

Further…
Did you really call a debate that went on for years and required the input of MANY users wrong? And not even make a meaningful or any explanation why you think that is? With actual arguments that aren't "Because Google said so"?
Do you have any idea how massively disrespectful that is towards the people, who worked on finding a reasonable and practical solution for this problem?!

The tags aren’t factually wrong like you claim, you just don’t agree with them. BIG difference. And frankly... that is YOUR problem, not ours.
Also, your repeated comparisons make it more look like you want to exaggerate the importance of the bodysuit discussion. I'm the not the only one, who pointed out your comparisons to the latex/rubber discussion don't make much sense.

This is the point where you completely lost me. Is the word latex ever commonly used outside the kink setting?
Yes, it f#cking is! In a laboratory environment you use utility wear things like medical gloves and depending on the lab boots out of latex and they are also called latex gloves/latex boots. I should know, I work with medical gloves on a daily basis!
We only agreed in this thread to not use latex for utility wear just because this way they won’t get mixed up in a sea of bdsm-y stuff. It’s a decision for practical reasons. (Read scaliespe’s comments above if you want an elaboration)

Also, the term catsuit isn’t as widespread as you claim it is. (And no, I don’t freaking care what Google says to that matter) In the Bodysuit thread (https://e621.net/forum_topics/41403) I literally said “I can't even agree to catsuit being the most common term part, I know the word from costumes and only heard it in that context. Nothing fetish related.” Did you at this point not consider that your arguments aren’t as solid as you tried to present them?
DiligentDragon’s arguments in the same thread are also worth noting.

Yes catsuit instead of skinsuit since that's the correct term and no, cat_costume stays. That would be absolutely ridiculous.

Ok well that's fair, bodysuit would make more sense though shouldn't skinsuit be aliased to tight_clothing then?

That's the thing, when you google something all the links and images are all of actual catuits. Kind of like how if you google latex you get all the kink stuff related to latex. Teachers also told me the same thing too so trust me, you're not talking to a voice. I think the reason they said it was because they wanted an actual source and not an amalgamation.

"They're wrong" as in rubber was the incorrect tag to use for the material. If you look, I was and still am very much for the rubber -> latex alias.

While latex is common outside of a kink setting, this is specifically a nsfw side and the posts you see of kink latex will vastly outnumber medical glove-type latex. I've thought about that already.

Skinsuit is a very generic tag, it is meant to be associated with a tag like bodysuit for a skinsuit that covers most of the body, or unitard for torso + legs skinsuit, or zentai for full-body skinsuits. Skinsuit also is for clothing which is specifically held to the skin by elastic tension (being tight) but other clothing could be tight for different reasons without being a skinsuit. Like a character growing or the clothes being undersized, there are specific tags for that as well.

For the purpose of keeping this topic relatively clean for future use as a reference on wiki pages may we keep discussions of skinsuit / bodysuits / catsuits to this topic -> https://e621.net/forum_topics/41403?

demonthedarkhound said:
Are you really suggesting to use catsuit for what we currently call skinsuit and cat_suit instead of cat_costume?
… This might be the worst idea I’ve heard in terms of tagging so far. That TOTALLY won’t cause a ton mistagging as a result of typos/misinterpretation.

Okay, let’s start from the beginning: Yes, we would like to use the term catsuit, but due to consisting of “cat” and “suit” multiple problems arise. Tags ending on *_suit are in certain cases very prone to mistagging. Rubber_suit got used in the past multiple times when people just wanted to refer to rubber_clothing, one of the reasons we are now getting rid of it. At least in these cases the taggers were aware enough to use it for clothes that cover large amounts of the wearer’s body (bodysuits and skinsuits). Goo_suit is another eyesore, I elaborated above why.
The cat in combination with suit or any other word for clothing will always make people think about suits that let the wearer look like a cat. Hence the invalidation.

So, catsuit is out. What are we gonna do? We set e621’s definition for BODYsuit for clothes that cover a large area of the BODY and the slightly more ambiguous SKINsuit as an umbrella term for SKIN tight clothes.
If you want to AGAIN bring up that the real world definitions are different from e6’s, guess what? These definitions weren’t made with e621's rules, tagging system and practicality for the user in mind.
Just look up the tags for monster or alien. Surprise! They have definitions unique to e6 to make them usable. Is that so difficult to understand?

Another point I want to bring up: What the hell makes you think Google is a valid source?! The object we talk about is clothing, a product people can buy. Companies pay for their products to appear higher on the list of results. That alone makes it a horrible source. I remember that citing Wikipedia as a source was already frowned upon by my teachers, if I only used Google (without the actual page Google offers me while searching) they would have let me fail just for that.

Further…
Did you really call a debate that went on for years and required the input of MANY users wrong? And not even make a meaningful or any explanation why you think that is? With actual arguments that aren't "Because Google said so"?
Do you have any idea how massively disrespectful that is towards the people, who worked on finding a reasonable and practical solution for this problem?!

The tags aren’t factually wrong like you claim, you just don’t agree with them. BIG difference. And frankly... that is YOUR problem, not ours.
Also, your repeated comparisons make it more look like you want to exaggerate the importance of the bodysuit discussion. I'm the not the only one, who pointed out your comparisons to the latex/rubber discussion don't make much sense.

This is the point where you completely lost me. Is the word latex ever commonly used outside the kink setting?
Yes, it f#cking is! In a laboratory environment you use utility wear things like medical gloves and depending on the lab boots out of latex and they are also called latex gloves/latex boots. I should know, I work with medical gloves on a daily basis!
We only agreed in this thread to not use latex for utility wear just because this way they won’t get mixed up in a sea of bdsm-y stuff. It’s a decision for practical reasons. (Read scaliespe’s comments above if you want an elaboration)

Also, the term catsuit isn’t as widespread as you claim it is. (And no, I don’t freaking care what Google says to that matter) In the Bodysuit thread (https://e621.net/forum_topics/41403) I literally said “I can't even agree to catsuit being the most common term part, I know the word from costumes and only heard it in that context. Nothing fetish related.” Did you at this point not consider that your arguments aren’t as solid as you tried to present them?
DiligentDragon’s arguments in the same thread are also worth noting.

Let's tone it down a bit. No need to get hostile over this.

The bulk update request #5889 is active.

create implication latex_shorts (57) -> shorts (93219)
create implication latex_shorts (57) -> latex_bottomwear (355)
create implication latex_skirt (101) -> skirt (70516)
create implication latex_skirt (101) -> latex_bottomwear (355)
create implication latex_boots (1047) -> boots (65042)
remove implication rubber_boots (98) -> boots (65042)
create alias latex_sleeves (3) -> latex_detached_sleeves (23)
create alias rubber_creature (10) -> latex_creature (963)
create implication latex_detached_sleeves (23) -> detached_sleeves (2358)
create implication latex_detached_sleeves (23) -> latex_armwear (2691)
remove implication rubber_clothing (10522) -> clothing (1826884)
remove implication rubber_suit (5) -> rubber_clothing (10522)

Reason: These a few final pesky alias and implications that were missed.

Clothing implication logic is meant to follow the same conventions as explained in previous BURs within this topic. There was a latex_sleeves tag which I manually edited so it reflects detached_sleeves (its closest convention).

Finally the infamous rubber_clothing and rubber_suit should finally be BUR-able. Nope I was wrong, apparently the implications also need to be striped off. A command to remove aliases/implications from a tag would probably be helpful in cases like this.

Hopefully this will be enough BURs. (edit: there will be at least one more to alias rubber_clothing / rubber_suit)

12/13/2023 - Updated to include rubber_boots / latex_boots fixes.
12/14/2023 - Updated to include alias rubber_creature -> latex_creature
12/15/2023 - Changed rubber_boots line to remove implication so it can be aliased in the next BUR.

I have some wiki page edits and tag projects to start after the latex_clothing group is more or less complete.

EDIT: The bulk update request #5889 (forum #382097) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

diligentdragon said:

12/13/2023 - Updated to include rubber_boots / latex_boots fixes.

Also blocked by transitive relationships, but I think I know why. Pending alias and implication requests can interfer with new requests . I narrowed it down to one BUR that might cause that: https://e621.net/forum_topics/34885 (Maybe someone from the staff can help here? I just searched for latex in the forum, so there might be other pending requests blocking us that I missed)

I also located suspects for creating the rubber_suit transitive relationships: https://e621.net/forum_topics/31897 and three pending forum entries I wasn't allowed to enter (Forum 21139, 21107 and 21099) Searching the implications for rubber_suit led me to these three. I have no idea why I couldn't access them or why they are still pending.

Didn't find anything to rubber_clothing. Might really be the implication from rubber_suit to it combined with the fact that both of them are quite big (Or another reason we haven't found, yet)

I updated the BUR to remove the implications for rubber_boots. I also wanted to list the wiki pages I have updated since starting this topic, see below.

latex
liquid_latex
latex_skin
latex_gloves
latex_boots
medical_gloves
work_gloves
rain_boots

I would like for someone to look over my changes and double check that its consistent with the overall community discussions. Also I do want to restate that the use of these utility clothing tags like medical / work gloves isn't ideal but we never came up with anything better, so I did the best I could to make the wiki pages communicate that these tags should only be used when the clothing has some obvious utility within the context of the image. I am almost certain that TWYS can include contextual clues so everything should be within policy.

Also I launched an unlisted TagMe! project to retag latex_gloves to medical_gloves / work_gloves. So far my changes have gone okay, there are obviously some grey area images but not an overwhelming number. If anyone involved in this discussion wants to join the project, DM me and I can send a link.

I should warn everyone though, since the tag string includes 'medical' related tags there are some 'gore' and 'surgery' posts in there. But ya know... https://e621.net/posts/511799

Updated

So, the two BURs that I brought up that might have caused the transitive relationships are gone (Thanks Rainbow_Dash) and rubber_clothing, rubber_boots and rubber_suit have no implications anymore. I really hope that now everything works.
If rubber_suit still doesn't want to be aliased away it might really be these three mysterious forum entries I mentioned (Forum 21139, 21107 and 21099).

Also, Merry Christmas everyone!

The bulk update request #5971 is active.

create alias rubber_suit (5) -> latex_skinsuit (10005)
create alias living_rubber (3) -> living_latex (2078)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> bridal_gauntlets (5320)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> latex_armwear (2691)
change category rubber_fetish (0) -> invalid
create alias rubbercat (5) -> latex_creature (963)
create alias rubber_cum (1) -> latex_cum (36)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> jockstrap (16249)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> latex_underwear (638)
create alias latex_shrug (5) -> latex_shrug_(clothing) (121)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> shrug_(clothing) (367)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_fur (10) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_harness (31) -> harness (23299)
create implication latex_straitjacket (35) -> straitjacket (2406)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> liquid_latex (1457)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> unusual_cum (6684)
create implication latex_bikini (42) -> bikini (72162)
create implication latex_diaper (14) -> diaper (21041)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> bandeau (2443)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> apron (15994)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> latex_clothing (20322)

Reason: Thank you Rainbow_Dash. Also Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Okay, once these aliases are taken care of the latex clothing tag group should be complete.

The real work can then start...

Updating all the wiki pages for tags associated with this project including the underused latex clothing tags.
Looking through latex clothing posts to apply more specific tags and remove inaccurate tags.
Double checking the old forum topics to make sure we didn't overlook anything important.

No particular order to these, I plan on starting with the wiki updates.

EDIT: rubber_suit still has the "# duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur". I'm going to start checking those topics DemonTheDarkHound listed.
-> Getting "Access Denied" for those forum topics.
-> Found several pending implications using the search function, https://e621.net/tag_implications?search[name_matches]=rubber_suit. These appear to be linked to the forum topics you listed DemonTheDarkHound.

EDIT - 12/29/2023: After contacting the request owner to reject the implication requests, the transitive relationship issue is now resolved.
EDIT - 12/31/2023: Added request for rubber_fetish to become an invalid tag. REASON: The concept of a rubber fetish is a subjective idea and like other subjective tags it should be invalid. If the tag remains in place with the current name it will probably be mistagged in the future.
EDIT - 1/1/2024 - Happy New Year, also added alias for rubbercat, the tag is not useful on its own because the species it is describing lacks an aesthetic/design different from 'feline latex_creature'
EDIT - 1/1/2024 - After looking through latex tags (thank you DemonTheDarkHound), I have added even more latex tags to this BUR. Its reached the 25 entry limit but there are still more latex tags... >_<
EDIT - 2/5/2024 - BUR fixed after feedback in DMs, awaiting final approval or further feedback.
EDIT - 2/23/2024 - After discussion with site staff, rubber_boots has been set aside as a non-fetish tag which will not be aliased.

EDIT: The bulk update request #5971 (forum #383378) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Updated by auto moderator

diligentdragon said:
The bulk update request #5971 is active.

create alias rubber_suit (5) -> latex_skinsuit (10005)
create alias living_rubber (3) -> living_latex (2078)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> bridal_gauntlets (5320)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> latex_armwear (2691)
change category rubber_fetish (0) -> invalid
create alias rubbercat (5) -> latex_creature (963)
create alias rubber_cum (1) -> latex_cum (36)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> jockstrap (16249)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> latex_underwear (638)
create alias latex_shrug (5) -> latex_shrug_(clothing) (121)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> shrug_(clothing) (367)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_fur (10) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_harness (31) -> harness (23299)
create implication latex_straitjacket (35) -> straitjacket (2406)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> liquid_latex (1457)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> unusual_cum (6684)
create implication latex_bikini (42) -> bikini (72162)
create implication latex_diaper (14) -> diaper (21041)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> bandeau (2443)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> apron (15994)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> latex_clothing (20322)

Reason: Thank you Rainbow_Dash. Also Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Okay, once these aliases are taken care of the latex clothing tag group should be complete.

The real work can then start...

Updating all the wiki pages for tags associated with this project including the underused latex clothing tags.
Looking through latex clothing posts to apply more specific tags and remove inaccurate tags.
Double checking the old forum topics to make sure we didn't overlook anything important.

No particular order to these, I plan on starting with the wiki updates.

EDIT: rubber_suit still has the "# duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur". I'm going to start checking those topics DemonTheDarkHound listed.
-> Getting "Access Denied" for those forum topics.
-> Found several pending implications using the search function, https://e621.net/tag_implications?search[name_matches]=rubber_suit. These appear to be linked to the forum topics you listed DemonTheDarkHound.

Yep, these are the implications I meant. I think at this point we need to contact either a staff member or the creator of these implications (checked, all three are done by the same still active user) to reject them.

I'm currently working on skimming through rubber* tags we might have missed and the more obscure stuff. (If it contains the word rubber, I'll take a look at it.) Already threw out stuff like "rubbery", "rubber_latex" or "rubber_drone", but it takes longer than I first expected and barely even got to check the latex* stuff. I have prepared a list with ideas on what to do with the rest/open questions to them, but it isn’t fully done, yet. (Give me a day or two)

I’ll take a look at the forum topics I brought up in the past and check if even more become irrelevant due to DiligentDragon’s excellent work.

Another thing I’m on is a list of artists, who draw a lot of latex, but for whatever case aren’t tagged properly (Started this one actually months ago). But this is for the time when we are done with all the aliases and implications. (Current working title: Call to the Latex Tag Crusade)

A little feedback to the descriptions you wrote for wiki pages DiligentDragon: They are very good in my opinion. I wanted to bring up a latex* tag in the past due to an unclear/missing description, but I checked it again before writing my comment and you already had taken care of it.

diligentdragon said:
The bulk update request #5971 is active.

create alias rubber_suit (5) -> latex_skinsuit (10005)
create alias living_rubber (3) -> living_latex (2078)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> bridal_gauntlets (5320)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> latex_armwear (2691)
change category rubber_fetish (0) -> invalid
create alias rubbercat (5) -> latex_creature (963)
create alias rubber_cum (1) -> latex_cum (36)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> jockstrap (16249)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> latex_underwear (638)
create alias latex_shrug (5) -> latex_shrug_(clothing) (121)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> shrug_(clothing) (367)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_fur (10) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_harness (31) -> harness (23299)
create implication latex_straitjacket (35) -> straitjacket (2406)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> liquid_latex (1457)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> unusual_cum (6684)
create implication latex_bikini (42) -> bikini (72162)
create implication latex_diaper (14) -> diaper (21041)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> bandeau (2443)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> apron (15994)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> latex_clothing (20322)

EDIT - 12/29/2023: After contacting the request owner to reject the implication requests, the transitive relationship issue is now resolved.

The issue is solved, but DemonTheDarkHound plans to add some additional tags to this BUR. You can post them here and I can edit them in.

I went through the tag lists with rubber stuff to see if there are any tags we might have missed. Cleaned up a bit (Typos, general nonsense and character names that were forgotten in the general section) and added a few descriptions. Excluding the artist and character names here is what is left:

1. rubber_armor Refers to a certain armor, which simply has the name “Rubber Armor” from Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom. Could potentially lead to mistagging when latex clothing in the style of armor is being depicted. Opinions?

2. rubbery_man Name of a species from the game Fallen London. Stays.

3. rubber_cum Alias to latex_cum and implication to unusual_cum. It has only been used 6 times so far, but is valid.

4. rubber_pride_colors Actually exist and are not made up like I initially thought. I learned something new from the e6 tag section. Stays.

5. rubber_duck, rubber_duck_on_head, rubber_chicken and rubber_band Don’t concern us.

6. rubberhose_animation and rubberhose Both refer to the animation style of old cartoons. One can stay, but we won’t need two of them. I’m not sure which one would be better. Is rubberhose clear enough that people understand what is meant? rubberhose_animation is a bit clearer, but the _animation part might lead to people only tagging animated posts with it. Is it even worth tagging? (I know, has nothing to do with latex. Still wanted to bring it up.)

7. rubber_cement I actually don’t know what to make out of this one. It refers to a labeled product in the pictures. Doubt it’s enough to have its own tag, but at the same time I’m too insecure to just remove the tag. A quick search identifies rubber cement as a certain type of glue. (I think I’m pondering way too much about a tag that was used only three times)

8. rubber_rocket Someone got the idea to combine Team Rocket with a latex/rubber kink. Unlikely to ever be really big, can stay.

9. rubber_bodysuit, rubber_hood and living_rubber Still need their aliases to the corresponding latex_* tags. living_rubber is the subject of one of the BURs listed below (One of the to be approved ones).

10. rubbercat A bit of a weird one. While I’m sure we can alias that away to latex_creature (165 are a bit too much to edit by hand) a lot of them were added by one of our janitors what makes me question if they know know something I don’t… or if I put way too much thought into that one.

11. rubber_fetish and all the color_rubber_suit tags rubber_fetish is simply unnecessary and we already agreed to get rid off the *rubber_suit tags. These belong to the tags I wanted to remove manually, but it just took so long that I didn’t manage to take care of them all. Still working on these.

As promised I looked through the old BURs I brought up in the past.
Here are the BURs that should be rejected so that they don’t block any future work (The suggested implications/aliases in these were either already done in our latex BUR here or were shot down by us):
https://e621.net/forum_topics/39153 , https://e621.net/forum_topics/23351 , https://e621.net/forum_topics/20827 , https://e621.net/forum_topics/35983 and https://e621.net/forum_topics/33496

BURs that should be approved:
https://e621.net/forum_topics/26844 , https://e621.net/forum_topics/37891 and https://e621.net/forum_topics/41384
The last is a new one that was created recently. It simply contains the necessary implications for latex_bridal_gaunlets.

Something else I want to bring up:
We have agreed on not tagging non-fetish stuff as latex. What if the latex-like object gets used in a fetish scenario? Or if it’s not 100% clear if it’s fetishwear or not?
I had to think about the first question while removing the tag “rubbery”. It was present on several posts featuring life jackets and some of them went into the direction of inflation kink. Would it be in such a case okay to tag the life jacket as latex_clothing?
Another example would be hazmat suits being used in a kinky way.

To the second question. I think if it’s not fully clear if it’s fetishwear or not we should tag it as latex. Going by TWYS it could be fetish stuff (If you wondered that while tagging there is a reason to think that). In such cases it also might affect the rating with fetishwear being a potential reason to rate something questionable instead of safe.

Going number by number.
1. I should probably make a latex_armor wiki page though. I honestly think these 'distinct outfits / armor set' tags should be discussed in a different topic. IMO they should be aliased to new names which denote the franchise they come from. Like... rubber_armor_(zelda) or gerudo_outfit_(zelda). If these tags denote these very specific outfits they should be treated as more specific tags to avoid mistagging.
2. Agreed (assuming species is always distinct in appearance)
3. Agreed, it could imply liquid_latex too.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed.
6. I suggest aliasing to rubberhose, the closest precedent for this kind of thing might be kemono which is for "anime-style" anthro content. As long as the tag name is distinct, it should be fine.
7. Honestly, we should probably ignore this one. Whether it stays or goes won't effect the cleanup.
8. Interesting, again we should probably ignore it.
9. I can through all of this into the BUR, including the one from another BUR just for the convenience of site staff. Assuming no one has any objections to that.
10. Species tags are supposed to be visually distinct enough (in some regard) to be taggable. I can't pinpoint the distinct aesthetic, characteristic or other attribute that makes this species distinct. It might be worth contacting the member of site staff to ask about it but I don't see a strong reason to keep it.
11. Good work, DM me the tag strings and instructions if you want assistance.

Regarding the fetishwear stuff. The fetishwear / utility wear distinction is more about making it possible to search for these specific items without seeing a bunch of generic latex, and to make it so generic fetishwear latex doesn't appear alongside these specific items. If the situation is fetish related then the rating and other associated tags like inflation should be enough to allow for searching these posts.

If its not obvious if the piece of clothing is fetish related or not, then I would suggest using the fetish tag just as a default.

For example: post #4074096

Despite these gloves appearing in a medical themed image, they are not distinct enough in design to make them medical_gloves. The characters aren't engaged in any action or placed in any context to indicate the gloves serve a practical purpose. Basically they don't appear visually distinct from other posts tagged with fetishwear latex_gloves and nothing medical/scientific is being done with them, so they don't get the medical_gloves tag.

Basically I'm saying that just because latex clothing appears in a fetish image, it isn't automatically "fetishwear" because that wouldn't be helpful for searching. The reason for tags like hazmat_suit, medical_gloves and life_jacket not implying latex_clothing is not because they never appear in fetish images. It's because their design is just distinct enough to make them worth keeping apart from the generic latex stuff.

EDIT - 1/7/2024: I have given this more thought and wanted to add a little addendum. Its definitely a highly subjective tag, thankfully it should be easy to revert these changes if people want to do so (re-alias). I could also see having medical_gloves imply latex_gloves, it would be worse for searching but likely better for tagging consistency. The implication solution would more smoothly handle edge cases like the example above.

Updated

A little update for those wondering what is taking so long:
With our decision to use latex only for the fetishwear rubber_boots had to be taken out of the BUR for the moment, because there are/were also non-fetish related boots like rain_boots tagged as such. I took care of retagging these boots, which was easier than expected, due to either a clearly shown bdsm theme of the picture or the lack of boots altogether (Still working on removing the latter).
A little problem we came upon was that not all non-fetish rubber_boots fit to rain_boots, so we (DiligentDragon and I) had to create the tag waterproof_boots and we would like to hear the opinion of other people about it. Do you think we should:
1. Keep the tags as they are now.
2. Alias them together, because you think we need only one tag of this kind.
3. Make rain_boots imply the more generic waterproof_boots. All rain_boots are waterproof_boots, but not all waterproof_boots are rain_boots/fit to their overall aesthetic.For now I will keep working at the rubber_boots tag and also take a look at latex_boots for potential non-fetish boots.

Plan changed after discussion with staff: rubber_boots stay and are used for non-fetish boots.

Updated

diligentdragon said:
The bulk update request #5971 is active.

create alias rubber_suit (5) -> latex_skinsuit (10005)
create alias living_rubber (3) -> living_latex (2078)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> bridal_gauntlets (5320)
create implication latex_bridal_gauntlets (36) -> latex_armwear (2691)
change category rubber_fetish (0) -> invalid
create alias rubbercat (5) -> latex_creature (963)
create alias rubber_cum (1) -> latex_cum (36)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> jockstrap (16249)
create implication latex_jockstrap (15) -> latex_underwear (638)
create alias latex_shrug (5) -> latex_shrug_(clothing) (121)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> shrug_(clothing) (367)
create implication latex_shrug_(clothing) (121) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_fur (10) -> latex_body (757)
create implication latex_harness (31) -> harness (23299)
create implication latex_straitjacket (35) -> straitjacket (2406)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> liquid_latex (1457)
create implication latex_cum (36) -> unusual_cum (6684)
create implication latex_bikini (42) -> bikini (72162)
create implication latex_diaper (14) -> diaper (21041)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> bandeau (2443)
create implication latex_bandeau (17) -> latex_topwear (821)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> apron (15994)
create implication latex_apron (2) -> latex_clothing (20322)

Reason: Thank you Rainbow_Dash. Also Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Okay, once these aliases are taken care of the latex clothing tag group should be complete.

The real work can then start...

Updating all the wiki pages for tags associated with this project including the underused latex clothing tags.
Looking through latex clothing posts to apply more specific tags and remove inaccurate tags.
Double checking the old forum topics to make sure we didn't overlook anything important.

No particular order to these, I plan on starting with the wiki updates.

EDIT: rubber_suit still has the "# duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through bur". I'm going to start checking those topics DemonTheDarkHound listed.
-> Getting "Access Denied" for those forum topics.
-> Found several pending implications using the search function, https://e621.net/tag_implications?search[name_matches]=rubber_suit. These appear to be linked to the forum topics you listed DemonTheDarkHound.

EDIT - 12/29/2023: After contacting the request owner to reject the implication requests, the transitive relationship issue is now resolved.
EDIT - 12/31/2023: Added request for rubber_fetish to become an invalid tag. REASON: The concept of a rubber fetish is a subjective idea and like other subjective tags it should be invalid. If the tag remains in place with the current name it will probably be mistagged in the future.
EDIT - 1/1/2024 - Happy New Year, also added alias for rubbercat, the tag is not useful on its own because the species it is describing lacks an aesthetic/design different from 'feline latex_creature'
EDIT - 1/1/2024 - After looking through latex tags (thank you DemonTheDarkHound), I have added even more latex tags to this BUR. Its reached the 25 entry limit but there are still more latex tags... >_<
EDIT - 2/5/2024 - BUR fixed after feedback in DMs, awaiting final approval or further feedback.
EDIT - 2/23/2024 - After discussion with site staff, rubber_boots has been set aside as a non-fetish tag which will not be aliased.

This should be ready.

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