Ahri_The_Pure_Slut said:
My vote stands. The tags should stay how they are now. Seems like people are just looking for something do be offended about, honestly. We've had these tags since I started using the site, almost 6 years ago. This is literally a non issue. I really hope the staff doesn't plan on bending over and obeying you, just because they're afraid to offend you. Seen it happen many times, and the offensive card is getting VERY worn out by this point.

It's a long thread, so maybe you missed it, but the staff already agreed that the existing tags are offensive. That is a non-arguable fact.

Furrin_Gok said:
It's a long thread, so maybe you missed it, but the staff already agreed that the existing tags are offensive. That is a non-arguable fact.

What a shame. Pathetic, really.

"it's such a shame i can't just call people whatever i want without any form of reprisal anymore, woe is me, pity my vanishing privilege"

mhmm

null0010 said:
"it's such a shame i can't just call people whatever i want without any form of reprisal anymore, woe is me, pity my vanishing privilege"

mhmm

More like it's a shame that people let words rule over them so firmly that they prioritize censorship over much more serious issues.

Ko-san said:
More like it's a shame that people let words rule over them so firmly that they prioritize censorship over much more serious issues.

Not to mention they're taking tags on a furry site for the purpose of finding porn personally. I mean cripes... I don't burn down buildings whenever someone refers to a dark skinned character as "delicious brown", because it's a frigging porn term... who cares.

null0010 said:
"it's such a shame i can't just call people whatever i want without any form of reprisal anymore, woe is me, pity my vanishing privilege"

mhmm

"My vanishing privilege"
Haha, you're just a treat~ Didn't mean to trigger you.

Also, "call people whatever i want without any form of reprisal"
They're tags... For artwork of fictional characters/species... On the internet...

I think you need to reassess the scale of this issue, friend.

Ahri_The_Pure_Slut said:
Didn't mean to trigger you.

i'm going to tell my mom

if the issue doesn't affect you then why do you hold such strong opinions over the tags potentially being changed? the old tags would be aliased to the new tags so your search terms would not be altered. does your ability to call people whatever you want to really trump the right of others to feel like they aren't subhuman?

null0010 said:
if the issue doesn't affect you then why do you hold such strong opinions over the tags potentially being changed? the old tags would be aliased to the new tags so your search terms would not be altered. does your ability to call people whatever you want to really trump the right of others to feel like they aren't subhuman?

Because for one, I have freedom of speech. Two, I'm not saying these terms, nor are they being used to describe other people. Reminder that tags are merely used for search purposes. Third, the concept of "this tag triggers a few select people and I, so we need to inconvenience the majority cause we're special" is so very petty. No interest in conforming for you, but that's not up to me.

Quit with the slappyfight and get back on topic. Tired of having to keep coming in here to say this.

Ahri_The_Pure_Slut said:
Because for one, I have freedom of speech. Two, I'm not saying these terms, nor are they being used to describe other people. Reminder that tags are merely used for search purposes. Third, the concept of "this tag triggers a few select people and I, so we need to inconvenience the majority cause we're special" is so very petty. No interest in conforming for you, but that's not up to me.

But it wouldn't inconvenience you. It'd be done via aliasing. At this point you're just doing this to be inflammatory.

I'm willing to say this thread is derailed again... Is everyone trying to solve the slur as a tag; or abuse the slur both by saying it's bad and (you/it) should feel bad, or that it should be harmless and nobody should be effected by it?

For solving the tag: the tag needs to be short, precise, and intuitive. Any example that changes the tag to a vague/ambiguous name damages the tagging system, and thus needs to be avoided. That is why Cuntboy/Dickgirl work so well, there is no easy way to misinterpret it. Instead, we can fall back to some good ones that I've seen: intersex_male, intersex_female, Herm, and Maleherm. We already use intersex as a tag, so the above follows intersex rather nicely. It makes it intuitive.

Alternatively: male_(sex), female_(sex), male_(intersex), female_(intersex), herm_(male), and herm_(female), and make the current male/female tags disambiguations. That follows suit with people whom I've seen, that tag intersex but not the appropriate subtag. It'd be really hard to execute, but it ranks each tag similarly. It'd be easier to use and differ.

For each, a problem is using them in strings with tags, like Cuntboy_dominating. Tagging needs to be with short words / strings of words, so I also thought of inter-man, inter-woman, (the next two need not apply, just potential ideas to follow suit) inter-Herm, and inter-Maleherm. This makes it easier to type, but it's drawback is that you need to know what inter could mean here. Another positive is, with my first suggested change these could replace the immediate string that'd be thought of (intersex_male/male would be inter-male/male).

Finally, for the third party, there needs to be usability and intuition behind the tags. While they look intuitive, a person may not immediately think to tag them; the more complex they are, the less likely a person is willing to tag them. However, I think this could be worked on by making a wiki page, specifically for tagging genders, sexual dimorphism, sexual singularity (all of the species look alike, no difference without altering the species), etc. It won't help immediate taggers, but people who spend time trying to tag, or upload, can use that wiki page to study, or fall back to it should arguing occur.

If you guys are willing to continue and say this whole slur name argument, then know that any word can become a slur after context applies. A rather cruel example is "Special", a once harmless word that applied to unique traits/qualities, now applies both positively and negatively to people who have disorders and disabilities, mostly because of the specific class Special Ed, which organizes them "rather nicely", for teachers and bullies alike. Even the proposed tag names can become slurs, so don't expect for this to just solve all problems. These are just tags that effect E621.net; solving the actual slur problem requires this argument to be in real life.

I bid you all Adieu.
*post written edit* this is before Ratte stepped in. I spend a while typing this...

I dunno if I read them in this thread or elsewhere but I like the terms "altermale" and "alterfemale." trans* implies some form of dysphoria or reassignment which is not always the case with furry characters.

Furrin_Gok said:
It's a long thread, so maybe you missed it, but the staff already agreed that the existing tags are offensive. That is a non-arguable fact.

I said here that they are vulgar, not that they are offensive. Please don't misquote me so grossly.

null0010 said:
I dunno if I read them in this thread or elsewhere but I like the terms "altermale" and "alterfemale." trans* implies some form of dysphoria or reassignment which is not always the case with furry characters.

Yeah those were here earlier, and are around the same bracket as the intersex_* ones.

Theres a full list on page 12 with everything so far.

NotMeNotYou said:
I said here that they are vulgar, not that they are offensive. Please don't misquote me so grossly.

Whoops, sirry! Really should have just went and quoted directly.

Anyways, we aren't "getting rid of" the tag, it can still be used for searching. That's the beauty of aliases, while it looks different, you can still use the old form for the same effect!

I'm sorry for being crass in my earlier posts. It's just that I've seen this argument many times, and my stance is solidified. Just wanted to apologize for my rudeness. I hope for a swift, and easy resolution. I'll leave you all to it.

NotMeNotYou said:
I said here that they are vulgar, not that they are offensive. Please don't misquote me so grossly.

You know I'll be honest. When I first read that comment I thought you were saying that they are offensive, not just vulgar. I know I am derailing here again but my view here I don't want to the tags changed on basis of "Its offensive" since they are just words and they only have as much power as you give them. Its the same with any "Slur" really. There is only as much power as you give it. Sure context of the word can make it much worse but still, its in the peoples power to make the terms non offensive.

But I do agree that maybe something a little less "potty mouthy" is in order.

But on that note if its not changed then those who say not to change because they are "Just words" will just be mostly snotty little shits.

Same if its changed. The "Its offensive" crowd will also be mostly snotty little shits.

The only ones who won't be snotty little shits, will be you, probably most of the admins and mods, a few other people, and myself.

Either way there will be no gracious winners/losers here.

Anyway back on topic. My vote still stands, Intersex_* sounds best.

United_Gamers said:
You know I'll be honest. When I first read that comment I thought you were saying that they are offensive, not just vulgar. I know I am derailing here again but my view here I don't want to the tags changed on basis of "Its offensive" since they are just words and they only have as much power as you give them. Its the same with any "Slur" really. There is only as much power as you give it. Sure context of the word can make it much worse but still, its in the peoples power to make the terms non offensive.

But I do agree that maybe something a little less "potty mouthy" is in order.

But on that note if its not changed then those who say not to change because they are "Just words" will just be mostly snotty little shits.

Same if its changed. The "Its offensive" crowd will also be mostly snotty little shits.

The only ones who won't be snotty little shits, will be you, probably most of the admins and mods, a few other people, and myself.

Either way there will be no gracious winners/losers here.

Anyway back on topic. My vote still stands, Intersex_* sounds best.

If you can't post without flinging insults, don't post.

The next time I have to come in here this thread will be locked. I'm really tired of this.

Ratte said:
If you can't post without flinging insults, don't post.

The next time I have to come in here this thread will be locked. I'm really tired of this.

I'm sorry. I'm just tired of topics like this one getting blown so far out of proportion to the point of being "How the **** did we get here!? ... However that no excuse for throwing an insult(Which I thought at the time was not one, necessarily) and being rude. So again I'm sorry for that, that was out of line.

Either way I'm probably done with this thread now. My opinion is out there, and my vote for whatever new tags are out there too. I have no more reason to stay in this tread other then to say sorry to you and anyone I may have insulted unnecessarily.

And sorry if by making this comment I make you lock out the thread but I felt the apology was necessary.

Tumblr hijinks, nothing to see here, just move along.

No disrespect intended ratte but locking the thread doesnt make the problem go away and were still looking for a concensus on whats best.

That said. To everyone else. The admins have said it already if you dont have anything to contribute just stop posting here please.

If youre not interested in the discussion. Great. Go to another thread where things cant affect you.

Either way at this point Im on the fence because intersex has 4 votes. Altersex has 2 votes. Type_w_junk has 6 votes.

Since the intersex altersex tags are literally the same tag with a different codifier I think they can safely be grouped together and the admins can choose which one is better which leaves us with only two obvious choices based on this website.

Somewhat surprisingly the results of the other poll gave us a lot of wierd results.

Things like oson and Oshe got a surprisingly high rating I guess due to being fun to say or something who knows.

But anyway. Should we just lock this thread and move on with the formal proposal via an alias suggestion thread.

Just trying to think where do we go from here as the best course of action.

GDelscribe said:
No disrespect intended ratte but locking the thread doesnt make the problem go away and were still looking for a concensus on whats best.

It makes it so I no longer need to babysit this thread. That is all I care about.

Your poll will have no tangible influence on our decision regarding the change, if it is even to take place. Don't put more into said poll than basic intrigue.

Is this serious? This is more of a retarded decision than when we changed gay to male/male.

The_Diggler said:
Hm. I wonder if this forum is worth the cancer I'll get from reading it....nope.

I lol'd

Cosby's_Pudding_Pop said:
Is this serious? This is more of a retarded decision than when we changed gay to male/male.

you did that on purpose to get this locked, did you?

Mutisija said:
you did that on purpose to get this locked, did you?

Hence my point. Locking it wont solve the problem. It doesnt make it go away and it doesnt change the issue that people like this are intentionally doing this to waste our time and the admins time.

Cosby's_Pudding_Pop said:
Is this serious? This is more of a retarded decision than when we changed gay to male/male.

Anyway Intentional trolling aside. There was a reason for that and If youd read the thread youd know that gay was changed to male/male because people were tagging gay as sexuality in solo images or images where one of the characters was gay even if it wasnt sexual in nature.

Male/male was introduced to cover an issue that was apparent with this.

And @ratte if you dont want to babysit the thread anymore thats not a reason to lock it. Just let another admin deal with it but the fact that youve said "im gonna lock it if you guys keep trolling" has only served to bring these people out of the woodworks in an attempt to stop any discussion.

Thats censorship outright because the more we talk about this the angrier they get because its "pc" etc etc.

@NotMeNotYou basically told me To take my issue to the forums when I brought it up over two months ago. So I have and theres been a lot of intelligent discussion made in between the swaths of trolls and people here intentionally to derail.

So because some people are here JUST to cause trouble thats an excuse to not allow the people actually actively involved in discussion a platform to make their case? Isnt that what the point of the forum is?

If people are being disruptive intentionally they should be getting warnings etc. Not rewarded with our side unilaterally being shut down for no reason.

Either way Im probably going to talk it over with @TitanMelon at this point and see if we can both work on setting up a proposal in formal.

Cosby's_Pudding_Pop said:
Is this serious? This is more of a retarded decision than when we changed gay to male/male.

They... They changed gay... To male/male...? Are you fucking kidding me? Hahahaha, hoooly shit, fuck this Earth.

Ahri_The_Pure_Slut said:
They... They changed gay... To male/male...? Are you fucking kidding me? Hahahaha, hoooly shit, fuck this Earth.

That was just so people would stop tagging guys masturbating as "gay".

Deh-tiger said:
That was just so people would stop tagging guys masturbating as "gay".

And to people being tagged gay despite being safe and solo, prevent the tag when being raped by a women, etc. basically anything that involved sexuality, which is TWYK.

Ahri_The_Pure_Slut said:
They... They changed gay... To male/male...? Are you fucking kidding me? Hahahaha, hoooly shit, fuck this Earth.

it has been like that over year

Ahri_The_Pure_Slut said:
They... They changed gay... To male/male...? Are you fucking kidding me? Hahahaha, hoooly shit, fuck this Earth.

Yet searching gay still gives us the same results.

Really guys, you're acting as if you're being forced to type all of that

Knotty_Curls said:
Yet searching gay still gives us the same results.

Really guys, you're acting as if you're being forced to type all of that

Basically to those who are still confused,

You'll still be able to search the tags that currently are used. The fact you weren't even aware of the gay > Male/Male change is proof of how low impact what were asking for is.

All we want is some basic respect.

GDelscribe said:
And @ratte if you dont want to babysit the thread anymore thats not a reason to lock it. Just let another admin deal with it but the fact that youve said "im gonna lock it if you guys keep trolling" has only served to bring these people out of the woodworks in an attempt to stop any discussion.

I very highly advise you don't tell me what to do.

I disagree with the change of the tags. Because:
a) this is the first time in like 6 years that I'm hearing about andromorph/gynomorph, oshe/oshon, andropars/androcunnus gynopars/gynophallus - wayy too confusing
b) transboy/intersex_male transgirl/intersex_female - less confusing that above but still confusing
c) "gender"_bodied_"reproductive organ" - why not "looks_like_a_female_with_penis_and_vagina" or "looks_like_a_male_with_vagina"
d) altersex is literally the same exact thing as intersex

And lastly, because you said this:

GDelscribe said:
Ive been wanting to post all the art ai have of my trans+intersex characters but I refuse to until I know for certain they wont be tagged with DGirl or CBoy.

I also cant upload art from at least 5 artists who have basically told me until the situation is changed their art isnt going up here.

Just by clicking at the source links that are at your current profile picture @GDelscribe, I have found both of your Furaffinity and Inkbunny accounts. Considering that your character name can be shorted to GDelscribe and that post #924374 (your avatar) was uploaded on all three sites on the same day (June 21), I'm fairly confident that these are your profiles.

So, lets look at them.

There are ~136 submissions that are either picture or flash, on both of your profiles. There is a lot of things. M solo, F solo, M/M, F/F, even CBT. However, one kind of pictures are missing. Pictures with intersexed characters in them. You yourself said that you can't wait to post them. This topic was created Jun 3, your profile picture was posted on Jun 21. In fact, you have uploaded another two pictures that day. So, it looks like you don't have issues with posting pictures. And if you don't have issues, then the question is where are they? [the pictures you can't wait to upload them].

So, you want to upload your art that has intersexed characters in them. That's fine. But why do you want to upload them here, when you do have issue with the tagging system used here instead of uploading them to your FA/IB, where is no official tagging system? No one is forcing you to upload them here. You have the freedom of choise. People that don't like the tagging system here don't use this site. They use other sites such as Furaffinity/Weasy/Sofurry/Inkbunny/FurryNetwork where they can tag their art anyway they want. Look at takedown #4506. They used to upload their art here but soon after they found how tagging system works here, they said: "nope, not using this site anymore". Or even if someone don't like 621 for other reasons, they use it just to look if there is art of theirs that was probably posted without their permission (or they straight up don't want them to be here) and to fill the takedown request. People that don't like cub porn don't visit Inkbunny.

I don't see reason why 621 should change that tags just because you don't like them. In fact, not even uploading them to FA/IB and then saying "can't wait to upload them here" when you don't seem to have problem with uploading other pictures there seems to be a little sketchy to me. But, if you really really want to upload your art then do it. My suggestion is: art containing intersexed characters would only go to FA/IB, everything else could go here. On FA/IB, write into description:"Please, do not repost to E621 or anywhere else without my permission". If someone reupload it here and use that "slurs", file takedown request. And that way you don't have to worry being called "slurs". Problem solved.

Another thing is, even if 621 change the Cboy/Dgirl, what about the other group of people that don't like their characters being misgendered? Here is one example: post #520268. This post was originaly deleted (takedown #2624) because character owner didn't liked that their character was tagged as "ambiguous" istead of male.
There are few other that I remeber:

And what about you? What will you do when your character will get misgendered? Are you going to be okay with that or are you going to throw hissy fit like some others did?

In the end ofthe day, NTNY's avatar contains a bit of a truth. "Stop taking internet so seriously".

I'm just wondering how this thread would develop if you said that right at the beggining.

hello_world said:
snip_

First off, this thread is not about characters being misgendered h.w., this is about the existing intersex subtags being composed of words that are established as being derogatory in a sex and sexual context for the majority of the demographic they would apply to here and irl. Males arnt called dicks or females called cunts here so why should intersex groups be.

Second its their choice to post when and where they want, and have the right to argue for not having to be exclusivly objectified(males are not on e621 but intersex sub groups are) on which ever website they prefer

@hello_world

What R'D said, and while I dont appreciate the intent to drag me personally I have to note that you clearly didnt look that deep into my galleries.

And not only that theres some private works by lonblue that Ive commissioned that I know certain other users will upload here as soon as I post them. I cant upload them to either gallery until I know its safe to do so.

No really this issue does actually stretch off e621 because anyone can post anything without permission from the artist or commissioner. And therefore as long as I am unconfident in having my art or commissions on here, I cant put them on my public galleries either.

Putting a request to not reupload elswherw has not stopped people in the past. And it wont stop people in the future.

There are people who post DNP stuff all the time.

Not to mention. Inkbunny has a friends only mode so.

But I digress. What R'D said is what Im standing by and what Ive been basically saying since the OP.

GDelscribe said:
@hello_world

What R'D said, and while I dont appreciate the intent to drag me personally I have to note that you clearly didnt look that deep into my galleries.

And not only that theres some private works by lonblue that Ive commissioned that I know certain other users will upload here as soon as I post them. I cant upload them to either gallery until I know its safe to do so.

No really this issue does actually stretch off e621 because anyone can post anything without permission from the artist or commissioner. And therefore as long as I am unconfident in having my art or commissions on here, I cant put them on my public galleries either.

Putting a request to not reupload elswherw has not stopped people in the past. And it wont stop people in the future.

There are people who post DNP stuff all the time.

Not to mention. Inkbunny has a friends only mode so.

But I digress. What R'D said is what Im standing by and what Ive been basically saying since the OP.

We honor takedown requests.

NotMeNotYou said:
We honor takedown requests.

Something that Ill have to keep in mind for the future depending on how this all goes down in the end.

Also when I put in a takedown request for artwork I'd uploaded by my girlfriend the takedown request was denied despite having co-ownership or complete ownwership of 90% of the depicted characters. So I still feel confused on how that system is meant to work.

That's rather simple, you need to proof that you are either the artist, commissioner, or character owner of all art you link.
If that is unclear, or wording of the reason makes it sound like you're just an unrelated person, then the request will be automatically denied.

If you can dmail me the number of the takedown request I can tell you in detail why it got denied, and what you'd need to do in order for us to approve the request.

Ko-san said:
More like it's a shame that people let words rule over them so firmly that they prioritize censorship over much more serious issues.

^

It seems odd that this would be an important issue to a majority of users. The impression is strikingly Tumblr. I really hate it when the admins change things anyway. For example, I proposed gun implications, and instead of leaving us gun nuts to do our thing like before while other users ignore it, specific model tags were banned altogether. So the lesson I learned from that was never ever bring anything to the attention of admins or give them ideas, because a change I really don't like will happen as a result.

DSR1337 said:
^

It seems odd that this would be an important issue to a majority of users. The impression is strikingly Tumblr. I really hate it when the admins change things anyway. For example, I proposed gun implications, and instead of leaving us gun nuts to do our thing like before while other users ignore it, specific model tags were banned altogether. So the lesson I learned from that was never ever bring anything to the attention of admins or give them ideas, because a change I really don't like will happen as a result.

That seems to go oddly against

NotMeNotYou said:
Just because it's only about 5% of our users that might have a problem with the current tags doesn't mean we need to rub our dicks all over their faces while yelling how their problem is imagined.

But then again, that happened two years ago: forum #29136. Looking over the tags aliased to invalid_tag, I do not see any guns, so apparently that has been undone.

Chessax said:
If you want to help, comment on some of @titanmelon's or @GDelscribe's topics/consolidation posts instead. They've made great attempts to bring order to chaos (probably others as well).

What is this in reference to, exactly?

Also, I'm having some difficulty in parsing through linguistic debates to find developments on this issue. Can anyone fill me in on what is the current state of this topic?

JAK0723 said:
What is this in reference to, exactly?

Also, I'm having some difficulty in parsing through linguistic debates to find developments on this issue. Can anyone fill me in on what is the current state of this topic?

Well, it was dead til you bumped it...

JAK0723 said:
What is this in reference to, exactly?

Also, I'm having some difficulty in parsing through linguistic debates to find developments on this issue. Can anyone fill me in on what is the current state of this topic?

Here's the current list of possible tags:

^ the altersex_* tags don't seem quite right.
See Titanmelon's post on page 17 , which is also more-or-less duplicated here

savageorange said:
^ the altersex_* tags don't seem quite right.
See Titanmelon's post on page 17 , which is also more-or-less duplicated here

That's a completely different variation of it, the list I found was way back on page 13, and at the time, those were the tags.
Even I can't keep track of everything here xD

JAK0723 said:
What is this in reference to, exactly?

I probably missed things, but they're a selection of some interesting posts in case you don't want to scour the entire thread:

Chessax said:

Some reading tips

• titanmelon:lists
• forum #140749
• forum #196649
• forum #197119
• forum #197177
• forum #197258
• forum #197260
• forum #197261
• forum #197271
• forum #197482
• forum #197543
• forum #197551
• forum #197663
• forum #197952
• forum #199781
• forum #199929
• forum #200231
• forum #200833
• forum #201035

I probably missed things, but they're a selection of some interesting posts in case you don't want to scour the entire thread:

Thank you, very helpful.
Just double checking, if/when new tags are decided upon, will cuntboy and dickgirl be aliased? While a new tag may be inoffensive and informative, there will still be users utilising the old tags.
If so, I would think male_with_pussy and female_with_penis would be the best replacements, informative while still allowing the site to translate the old tags when needed via the alias system.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: anything with male and female in the name would result in massive amount of mistags.

Users can't be expected not tag those as male and female (and as male/male, etc) if the tags are named male_* and female_*.

JAK0723 said:
Thank you, very helpful.
Just double checking, if/when new tags are decided upon, will cuntboy and dickgirl be aliased? While a new tag may be inoffensive and informative, there will still be users utilising the old tags.
If so, I would think male_with_pussy and female_with_penis would be the best replacements, informative while still allowing the site to translate the old tags when needed via the alias system.

As Genjar says, "Male_with_pussy" would get users to also tag it as "Male" because it's literally right there in the tag. That's why I suggested the "Masucline_with_pussy" alternative.

Furrin_Gok said:
As Genjar says, "Male_with_pussy" would get users to also tag it as "Male" because it's literally right there in the tag. That's why I suggested the "Masucline_with_pussy" alternative.

There's one thing wrong with that though, cboys aren't always masculine. Masculine is generally a descriptor of bodily appearance, not taking into account sexual organs. Males and cboys can appear effeminate, as can females and dgirls appear masculine.

JAK0723 said:
Just double checking, if/when new tags are decided upon, will cuntboy and dickgirl be aliased? While a new tag may be inoffensive and informative, there will still be users utilising the old tags.

As far as I can tell, yes.

JAK0723 said:
Thank you, very helpful.
Just double checking, if/when new tags are decided upon, will cuntboy and dickgirl be aliased?

No problem, and yes, the tags will be aliased. You will be able to both tag and search using the old tags. Admins have already said that change is positive as long as it can successfully replace the current tags with equivalent non-vulgar terms.

Chessax said:
No problem, and yes, the tags will be aliased. You will be able to both tag and search using the old tags. Admins have already said that change is positive as long as it can successfully replace the current tags with equivalent non-vulgar terms.

I'm certain that the titles will change they will be officially presented as something formal and inoffensive to viewers of the site. However, I hold little doubt that the old tags will ever cease to be used in some capacity, simply for the sake of convince and efficiency. To power users, speed is priority number one. Every additional unnecessary keypress is a frustration they could do without, so they would assuredly use whichever alias is shortest.

Take derpibooru for example, they have dozens of 2-3 character long shorthand tags, all for the sake of efficiency. Though such a system only works for derpibooru due to their very specific interests, it would be incredibly difficult to do so with the broad interests e621 caters to.

The majority of this will only apply to experienced users who devote a substantial amount of their time to this site. For casual users and newcomers, ease of use and understandability would be much more important. A balance between simplicity and efficiency is necessary to please all users. Thankfully the alias system solves the bulk of the problem, facilitating the use of any applicable tag, whichever the user happens to prefer, so long as it is correct. I apologise if I may gone on a ramble, I haven't talked much in a while.

JAK0723 said:
There's one thing wrong with that though, cboys aren't always masculine. Masculine is generally a descriptor of bodily appearance, not taking into account sexual organs. Males and cboys can appear effeminate, as can females and dgirls appear masculine.

There has to be a degree of masculinity to consider it to be a cuntboy, and not a flat female.

Yes, but there a number of secondary sexual characteristics that would not be explicitly considered masculine or feminine. Yes, a tall, broad shouldered, hairy, muscular person would be considered masculine, but its not always that obvious. There are many characters who look very androgynous, but have subtle visual cues to show their sex/gender. Details such as slight differences in skeletal structure (eg jawline, hips, shoulders) or hair growth may be scientifically identified as 'masculine' or 'feminine', but such words carry more emphasis in everyday conversation. For example, if you try to describe a 'girly' cboy as having a masculine body structure, you would technically be correct, but the average commentator would likely disagree with you.

JAK0723 said:
Yes, but there a number of secondary sexual characteristics that would not be explicitly considered masculine or feminine. Yes, a tall, broad shouldered, hairy, muscular person would be considered masculine, but its not always that obvious. There are many characters who look very androgynous, but have subtle visual cues to show their sex/gender. Details such as slight differences in skeletal structure (eg jawline, hips, shoulders) or hair growth may be scientifically identified as 'masculine' or 'feminine', but such words carry more emphasis in everyday conversation. For example, if you try to describe a 'girly' cboy as having a masculine body structure, you would technically be correct, but the average commentator would likely disagree with you.

It's true that there will be those who try to argue what counts, but that's something that can happen with a lot of tags.

Its pretty clear to me that body_with_junk is definitely the favourite over all the polls ive conducted and discussions Ive had. So I agree.

That said @genjar how do we tag the current situations if its cboy on cboy or dgirl on dgirl, if its d(girl) it should be tagged female/female right? Regardless of penis? Because thats how even the current tags are set up. If were going to agree that its cboy/cboy then its male/male and if were going to agree its dgirl/dgirl then its female/female etc.

Thats not an issue with the new tags only. Its an issue with the existing tags too.

GDelscribe said:
That said @genjar how do we tag the current situations if its cboy on cboy or dgirl on dgirl, if its d(girl) it should be tagged female/female right? Regardless of penis?

I don't understand what you mean by that, but I'm getting the impression that you are saying that you can tag intersexes with only body types, like how female/female or male/male can work. So: body types and genitals are required to tag Dickgirl/Cuntboy beings. If it only has a body type, then it can be tagged male, female, or ambiguous. If it has genitals, but only an ambiguous bodytype (aka, no sexual dimorphism, the removal of male/female body types), then it only gets male, female, or Herm (Herm because it requires both sets, and on a ambiguous body, there is no way to say Dickgirl, Cuntboy, of Maleherm, because Herm is default). Dickgirls and cuntboys are always removed if you either remove the body type, or the genitals.

Dickgirls on dickgirls is Dickgirl/Dickgirl. Cuntboys on cuntboys is Cuntboy/Cuntboy. And, there is intersex/intersex as a blanket tag for the 10 intersex pairings.

GDelscribe said:
Its pretty clear to me that body_with_junk is definitely the favourite over all the polls ive conducted and discussions Ive had. So I agree.

That said @genjar how do we tag the current situations if its cboy on cboy or dgirl on dgirl, if its d(girl) it should be tagged female/female right? Regardless of penis? Because thats how even the current tags are set up. If were going to agree that its cboy/cboy then its male/male and if were going to agree its dgirl/dgirl then its female/female etc.

Thats not an issue with the new tags only. Its an issue with the existing tags too.

We can actually have dickgirl/female, dickgirl/male, cuntboy/female, and cuntboy/male. These tags would need to be moved over, too.

I guess ignorance isnt an excuse but since I dont go searching for tags using those words I didnt even know they existed.

Anyway my point was from my perspective whats to stop people from mistagging the current tags because they have boy and girl in them respectively. The argument that it would cause a bunch of mistags while the current wouldnt is a little bit of a stretch.

GDelscribe said:
Anyway my point was from my perspective whats to stop people from mistagging the current tags because they have boy and girl in them respectively. The argument that it would cause a bunch of mistags while the current wouldnt is a little bit of a stretch.

That the current ones don't have mistags suggests the new ones won't, either, unless it's typo mistags (which, let's be honest, masculine_with_pussy/male is a very clunky tag).

Furrin_Gok said:
That the current ones don't have mistags suggests the new ones won't, either, unless it's typo mistags (which, let's be honest, masculine_with_pussy/male is a very clunky tag).

Which probably means that tagging will actually be done via dickgirl / cuntboy. A minor problem (spoiliness; you have to look up a tag's wiki to find the list of tags aliased to it).

I'm beginning to lose track: was a set of short aliases proposed for {masculine,feminine}_with_{pussy,penis}?
Seems problematic since Pussy and Penis both begin with the same letter.

savageorange said:
Which probably means that tagging will actually be done via dickgirl / cuntboy. A minor problem (spoiliness; you have to look up a tag's wiki to find the list of tags aliased to it).

I'm beginning to lose track: was a set of short aliases proposed for {masculine,feminine}_with_{pussy,penis}?
Seems problematic since Pussy and Penis both begin with the same letter.

My mind is throwing out slashes, but that's used for pairings. Maybe hyphens instead, like mas-pussy or fem-penis?

Using Hyphens instead of slashes would be a lot better yeah. And striving for short sweet and simple tags would be great because the simpler the tag is the easier it is to learn.

Also if we have the issue of pussy and penis being an issue its easily solved by changing penis to a slang term or changing pussy to the scientific "vulva" which is what people typically are actually tagging pussy for.

GDelscribe said:
Using Hyphens instead of slashes would be a lot better yeah. And striving for short sweet and simple tags would be great because the simpler the tag is the easier it is to learn.

Also if we have the issue of pussy and penis being an issue its easily solved by changing penis to a slang term or changing pussy to the scientific "vulva" which is what people typically are actually tagging pussy for.

It's not as simple to change penis and pussy: penis is not slang, is it the best alternative. Using dick, shlong, etc., are slang terms, whereas penis is ultimately the most neutral term. After all, we are arguing about dickgirl being slang... As for the latter, Vulva is only the external term, whereas pussy is used in place with clitoris, urethra, cervix, and uterus, making it a very general term. This makes it an umbrella tag for all four; instead of up to four tags, you could use one, and add the rest in case per case. Which allows you to be specific or vague, depending on what you're looking for.

If the issue is caused by two words starting the same it is technically that easy to change just the word that causes issue.

In respect to the proposed tags since we have tagged thngs with special exceptions or rules before its possible such a change could be unique to that tag such as using vulva's v in the shorthand for clarity.

I reiterate myself: you are trying to change a general word into a slang one, and a general one into a too specific one. I didn't even know Vulva was an appropriate word until I looked at the wiki, and once I'd enter my second EMT class I'd probably learn about it... You may commonly associate it, but I'm willing to hinge my bets and say most men say pussy or vagina over vulva...

I dont mean to be rude but the word vulva issomething I was taught in grade 5 sex ed. I apologize for assuming it was common knowledge.

That said, I made a thread about this specific topic so it wont derail this one if its discussed but basically, we tag pussy based only on the external parts for the most part. We have a tag for clitoris as its not always visible in the art. In all cases where vagina is shown however the vulva is visible. In fact it must be for us to tag pussy as per twys so it just seemed like a logical drawn conclusion.

Anyway Im specifically referring to the situation involved in making a shorthand tag. If both m_w_p can mean male with pussy and male with penis respectively. (Not saying that WOULD be the tag but similar tags were proposed earlier.)

Well that would be an issue because there would be no way to tell them apart so in shorthand at least we would have no choice but to use mwd for male with dick or male with vulva/vagina as mwv

sex=-1
if (HasPussy){
 sex=0
 if (HasCock){
  sex=2
 }
}
else if (HasCock){
 sex=1
}

switch (sex){
 case 0:
  if (HasTits or not RaceHasTits){
   gender="Female"
  }
  else {
   gender="Female intersex"
  }
 case 1:
  if (HasTits){
   gender="Male intersex"
  }
  else {
   gender="Male"
  }
 case 2:
  gender="Intersex"
  if (HasTits or not RaceHasTits){
   if (HasBalls or not RaceHasBalls){
    gender="Hermaphrodite"
   }
   else {
    gender="Futanari"
   }
  }
  else {
    gender="Intersex"
  }
 default:
  gender="Genderless"
}

GDelscribe said:
EVERYTHING.

Hey! GDelscribe! SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

Anti-Proxy_44 said:
Hey! GDelscribe! SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

Hey! Anti-Proxy 44!

...Chill out. While I may not agree with what they're saying, you don't hear me throwing obscenities at them.

Anti-Proxy_44 said:
Hey! GDelscribe! SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

counter productive are we, why update this thread if you want the critics to be silent?